Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Jorge González]

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57, Claude Paroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 07:54 +0200, Johannes Schmid a écrit :
>> Hi!
>>
>> I know this is a problem but developers often simply don't have time to
>> update docs very often and as such update them when we are in code
>> freeze because they can't do anything else at that time.
>>
>> As we have no freeze for docs this is completely OK and leads to better
>> and up-to-date documentation in general. Though it might mean that there
>> won't be fully translated docs in the .0 release but likely in the .1
>> release used by most distributions.
>
> I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days
> before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of
> respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider
> translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-(
yes, I also see at as a question of respect, perhaps we could do some
spam, we are quite a lot of translators ;)

>
> Claude
>
>> On Mo, 2008-09-22 at 07:01 +0200, Jorge González González wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same
>> > date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about "freezing"
>> > somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep
>> > updating it up to today.
>> >
>> > I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot
>> > think we can translate like this.
>> >
>> > Cheers.
>> ___
>> gnome-i18n mailing list
>> gnome-i18n@gnome.org
>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
> --
> www.2xlibre.net
>
>



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[Bug 438348] License problems in po files

[l10n (bugzilla.gnome.org)]

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  l10n | other | Ver: GNOME HEAD

Bug 438348 depends on bug 553153, which changed state.

Bug 553153 Summary: License problem with hr translation of atk
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553153

   What|Old Value   |New Value

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution||FIXED



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Re: Issue with script for Kashmiri Localisation

[Gora Mohanty]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:11:59 +0530
"RKVS Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Attached is the Perso-Arabic code chart for Kashmiri which I have got
> from our Perso-Arabic entre ( http://parc.cdac.in ). Do let me know if
> there are any code points which have not yet been represented.
[...]

Thank you very much. I will forward this to the
University of Kashmir folk.

Regards,
Gora
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[Bug 438348] License problems in po files

[l10n (bugzilla.gnome.org)]

If you have any questions why you received this email, please see the text at
the end of this email. Replies to this email are NOT read, please see the text
at the end of this email. You can add comments to this bug at:
  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=438348

  l10n | other | Ver: GNOME HEAD

Bug 438348 depends on bug 553151, which changed state.

Bug 553151 Summary: License problem with mr translation of atk
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553151

   What|Old Value   |New Value

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution||FIXED



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Re: Licenses of .po files, and translations

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Axel Hecht skrev:
> FWIW, in the Mozilla project, we consider translations to be derivative work.
> 
> Which is what we consider, I wouldn't know that any lawyer looked at it for 
> us.

It is/may be derivative work, but the copyright to a translation belongs
 to the translator by default.

Since it is or may be derivative, the translator mostly can't do
whatever she likes with the translation, but nobody else can do anything
with the translation unless the translator says so.

BR,
Gudmund

> Axel
> 
> 2008/9/21 Anna Jonna Armannsdottir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> On fös, 2008-09-12 at 22:26 +0530, Gora Mohanty wrote:
>>>   Thus, as I see it, for an application licensed under
>>> the GPL, the .pot files, and the .po files are also
>>> GPL-licensed.
>> Your argument seems to be that the source of those files
>> is the GPL ed source. This only holds for th pot file and
>> the untranslated .po file.
>> The work of the translators are completely independent of
>> the source.
>> Also copyright owners may change their minds and change
>> license and or terms. Thus translators that were translating
>> free software may find that their work is being used in
>> non-free software as well.
>> Because of this, I would like to explicitly specify GPL as
>> the license of the .po files I translate.
>> If other translators would like to translate the same software
>> under a different license, they are free to do that, because
>> the .pot file and the .po files are just a template to be
>> filled out with translations of sentences into a
>> particular language. Copyright would only hold for the work
>> as a whole, and as long as there is a difference in the
>> in the translation as a whole, they would have to be considered
>> as two separate works, with the similarity beign the template
>> dot po file.
>>
>> This is my personal view on this.
>>
>> --
>> Anna Jonna Ármannsdóttir coordinator
>> The Icelandic GNOME Localisation team
>> http://l10n.gnome.org/teams/is was 11% translated
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Andre Klapper]

Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González:
> there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same
> date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about "freezing"
> somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep
> updating it up to today.
> 
> I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot
> think we can translate like this.

I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet.
It boils down to the problem "Having better (updated) english
documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation".
Pick your poison.
For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs.

andre
-- 
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Re: Licenses of .po files, and translations

[Gora Mohanty]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:53:21 +0200
Gudmund Areskoug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Axel Hecht skrev:
> > FWIW, in the Mozilla project, we consider translations to be derivative 
> > work.
> > 
> > Which is what we consider, I wouldn't know that any lawyer looked at it for 
> > us.
> 
> It is/may be derivative work, but the copyright to a translation belongs
>  to the translator by default.

> Since it is or may be derivative, the translator mostly can't do
> whatever she likes with the translation, but nobody else can do anything
> with the translation unless the translator says so.

Yes, the copyright undoubtedly belongs to the translator. The
question involves licensing terms. If the .pot file was under
the GPL, is the .po file a derivative work, and hence under
the GPL, too? A secondary question is, if an existing .po
file, which is explicitly licensed under the GPL, is added to
by another translator, is the new translation also under the
GPL?

My opinion would be yes, in both cases, though it is much less
clear in the first case. There, since the strings are derived
from the source code, and since the .pot file says that the
licence is the same as that for the base package, my opinion
is that if the application is under the GPL, so is the .pot file.

Maybe we should get a legal opinion on this.

Regards,
Gora
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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Olav Vitters]

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57:24AM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote:
> I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days
> before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of
> respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider
> translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-(

Translated work is important. However, documentation has the issue that
it is often out of date. That should be solved before it is translated.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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ikedjane tamazight ISO 639-3 :tzm

[khaled habhoub]

khaled habhoub
*e-mail:*  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*Bugzilla account*:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
language: Central Atlas Tamazight ISO 639-3 
:tzm
mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
team web: gnome.ikedjane.tk

I would like to start a new  gnome translation team to a language called
Tamazight (commonly known as BERBER) language of the original inhabitants of
North Africa
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Evolution branched for GNOME 2.24

[Srinivasa Ragavan]

Guys,

I created gnome-2-24 branch for Evolution, Evolution-data-server,
Evolution-Exchange and GtkHTML.

http://go-evolution.org/Evo2.26 has some planned activity for GNOME
2.26.

-Srini.

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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Claude Paroz]

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit :
> Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González:
> > there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same
> > date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about "freezing"
> > somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep
> > updating it up to today.
> > 
> > I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot
> > think we can translate like this.
> 
> I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet.
> It boils down to the problem "Having better (updated) english
> documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation".
> Pick your poison.
> For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs.

Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one
you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI
freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested
and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze...

It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply
telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe.
The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs.

I'm also sure that maintainers have enough work to do the last week-end
before the release, ensuring a good and bugfree tarball is delivered.

Claude

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Re: GDM trunk will be used for GNOME 2.24.

[Vincent Untz]

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008, à 02:19 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit :
> The release-team is going to use gdm trunk for GNOME 2.24.
> 
> Note that most release-team members have mixed feelings.
> Entire discussion would have been less frustrating if gdm developers had
> been more responsible to the concerns shared in discussions. Maybe just
> my point of view.
> 
> Translations of gdm trunk are in a good shape.

Note that the new GDM deprecates fast-user-switch-applet, since there's
an applet included with GDM now.

Vincent

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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Claude Paroz]

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 12:04 +0200, Olav Vitters a écrit :
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57:24AM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote:
> > I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days
> > before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of
> > respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider
> > translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-(
> 
> Translated work is important. However, documentation has the issue that
> it is often out of date. That should be solved before it is translated.

Yes, but that's two different problems that should be addressed
separately.

For well translated docs, a small freeze before the main releases is a
good solution.
For good and up-to-date documentation, we need to recruit more writers.

Claude 

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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Olav Vitters]

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 01:33:04PM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote:
> Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 12:04 +0200, Olav Vitters a écrit :
> > On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 08:57:24AM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote:
> > > I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days
> > > before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of
> > > respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider
> > > translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-(
> > 
> > Translated work is important. However, documentation has the issue that
> > it is often out of date. That should be solved before it is translated.
> 
> Yes, but that's two different problems that should be addressed
> separately.

How is it separate? Adding a freeze period means the docs will be even
more outdated as they are now. I do not see how this can be seen as a
separate problem.

> For well translated docs, a small freeze before the main releases is a
> good solution.
> For good and up-to-date documentation, we need to recruit more writers.

As we do not have enough writers, we avoid limiting the time they have
to write the documentation.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Tomboy branched for GNOME 2.24

[Sandy Armstrong]

Hi all,

Just branched Tomboy for GNOME 2.24, to a branch named gnome-2-24 [1].

My plans for next release include:
* Full Windows/Mac support
* Performance improvements
* Fixing some long-standing embarrassing bugs, and general polish

But we haven't had our roadmap meeting yet, so we'll see what the rest
of the community is interested in working on.

Cheers,
Sandy

[1] http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/tomboy/branches/gnome-2-24/
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gucharmap branched

[Christian Persch]

Hi;

gucharmap has been branched for Gnome 2.24; the branch name is
"gnome-2-24".

Christian

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gnome-terminal branched

[Christian Persch]

Hi;

gnome-terminal has been branched for Gnome 2.24; the branch name is
"gnome-2-24".

Christian

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Re: GDM trunk will be used for GNOME 2.24.

[Matthias Clasen]

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The release-team is going to use gdm trunk for GNOME 2.24.
>
> Note that most release-team members have mixed feelings.
> Entire discussion would have been less frustrating if gdm developers had
> been more responsible to the concerns shared in discussions. Maybe just
> my point of view.
>
> Translations of gdm trunk are in a good shape.
>
> Distributors: Old gdm is still available in case you hit a regression.
>

I'm surprised by this turn of events, after Vincent decreed that we'd
go with 2.20 on Friday...

Anyway, here is a set of files that should give us a11y hotkeys on the
login screen (and in the regular desktop, too). We should be able to
have this working in 2.24.1.


	
	
	



a11y.schemas
Description: Binary data


toggle-gconf-key
Description: Binary data
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Re: GDM trunk will be used for GNOME 2.24.

[Vincent Untz]

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008, à 09:46 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit :
> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The release-team is going to use gdm trunk for GNOME 2.24.
> >
> > Note that most release-team members have mixed feelings.
> > Entire discussion would have been less frustrating if gdm developers had
> > been more responsible to the concerns shared in discussions. Maybe just
> > my point of view.
> >
> > Translations of gdm trunk are in a good shape.
> >
> > Distributors: Old gdm is still available in case you hit a regression.
> >
> 
> I'm surprised by this turn of events, after Vincent decreed that we'd
> go with 2.20 on Friday...

See
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2008-September/msg00251.html

Vincent

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Re: GDM trunk will be used for GNOME 2.24.

[Willie Walker]

While I disagree with Brian's assessment (I think he tends to lean more 
to the 'it's OK as long as an able-bodied sysadmin can configure the 
system for the disabled user' side than the 'let the user be 
independent' side), I'll support the decision nonetheless.


Will

Vincent Untz wrote:

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008, à 09:46 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit :

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The release-team is going to use gdm trunk for GNOME 2.24.

Note that most release-team members have mixed feelings.
Entire discussion would have been less frustrating if gdm developers had
been more responsible to the concerns shared in discussions. Maybe just
my point of view.

Translations of gdm trunk are in a good shape.

Distributors: Old gdm is still available in case you hit a regression.


I'm surprised by this turn of events, after Vincent decreed that we'd
go with 2.20 on Friday...


See
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2008-September/msg00251.html

Vincent



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gnome-games branched

[Christian Persch]

Hi;

gnome-games was branched for 2.24; the branch name is "gnome-2-24".

Christian

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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Shaun McCance]

On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:45 +0200, Claude Paroz wrote:
> Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit :
> > Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González:
> > > there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same
> > > date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about "freezing"
> > > somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep
> > > updating it up to today.
> > > 
> > > I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot
> > > think we can translate like this.
> > 
> > I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet.
> > It boils down to the problem "Having better (updated) english
> > documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation".
> > Pick your poison.
> > For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs.
> 
> Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one
> you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI
> freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested
> and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze...

As I've pointed out before, this analogy doesn't hold water.
It's not a matter of making the documentation more polished.
It's a matter of making it correct.

If a program needs a string addition to give a user information
in the case of some error, that's polish.  If the documentation
is telling you to click on button XYZ, but button XYZ does not
exist in the program, that's just flat out wrong.  There is no
point in translating that sentence, because there are exactly
zero users who would be helped by reading it.

> It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply
> telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe.
> The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs.

Stormy had a great blog post a few days back, talking about
how project releases are constrained by time, resources, and
scope.  We currently have a fixed amount of time, and have a
very difficult time increasing our resources (i.e. writers).
Our scope (i.e. documentation quality) suffers.

If you decrease our time without increasing our resources,
documentation quality will suffer.

Please don't claim there is no respect for translators, as
you did in a previous email.  That's pure flamebait.  I put
a lot of work (along with Danilo) into making translators
able to do documentation with po files.  I wrote an entire
DocBook toolchain in part because the existing solutions
didn't serve our translators well.

I have put a lot of development time into making sure you
can have properly translated documentation.  But I will
not take precious time away from our few valiant writers,
just so you can have a translated version of a document
that's not even correct or helpful in English.

--
Shaun


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gnome-themes branched

[Calum Benson]

Have just branched gnome-themes for 2.24.  Feature development should  
continue on trunk, gnome-2-24 is for translations and bugfixes only.


Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer   Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Java Desktop System Group
http://ie.sun.com  +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Claude Paroz]

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 09:53 -0500, Shaun McCance a écrit :
> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:45 +0200, Claude Paroz wrote:
> > Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit :
> > > Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González:
> > > > there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same
> > > > date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about "freezing"
> > > > somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep
> > > > updating it up to today.
> > > > 
> > > > I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot
> > > > think we can translate like this.
> > > 
> > > I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet.
> > > It boils down to the problem "Having better (updated) english
> > > documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation".
> > > Pick your poison.
> > > For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs.
> > 
> > Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one
> > you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI
> > freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested
> > and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze...
> 
> As I've pointed out before, this analogy doesn't hold water.
> It's not a matter of making the documentation more polished.
> It's a matter of making it correct.
> 
> If a program needs a string addition to give a user information
> in the case of some error, that's polish.  If the documentation
> is telling you to click on button XYZ, but button XYZ does not
> exist in the program, that's just flat out wrong.  There is no
> point in translating that sentence, because there are exactly
> zero users who would be helped by reading it.

I don't contest the need to correct this, but the timeframe to do it.
Moreover, freezes have exception processes, so obvious and critical
errors could still be committed.

> > It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply
> > telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe.
> > The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs.
> 
> Stormy had a great blog post a few days back, talking about
> how project releases are constrained by time, resources, and
> scope.  We currently have a fixed amount of time, and have a
> very difficult time increasing our resources (i.e. writers).
> Our scope (i.e. documentation quality) suffers.
> 
> If you decrease our time without increasing our resources,
> documentation quality will suffer.

Please, please... we're talking about a some (3?) days freeze in a
schedule of six months.

> Please don't claim there is no respect for translators, as
> you did in a previous email.  That's pure flamebait.

When you pass tenth of hours to translate a big document and you see
half of it unvalidated by an update some hours before the release, try
to imagine the feeling of the translator...

>   I put
> a lot of work (along with Danilo) into making translators
> able to do documentation with po files.  I wrote an entire
> DocBook toolchain in part because the existing solutions
> didn't serve our translators well.
> 
> I have put a lot of development time into making sure you
> can have properly translated documentation.  But I will
> not take precious time away from our few valiant writers,
> just so you can have a translated version of a document
> that's not even correct or helpful in English.

And you know that I'm also one of these few (albeit a minor one).

We both defend our respective position (doc writer/translator). IMHO
both are somewhat valid but unfortunately they conflict... and I don't
see this thread going to change anything right now.

Claude

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Re: [gdm-list] GDM trunk will be used for GNOME 2.24.

[Brian Cameron]

Will:

While I disagree with Brian's assessment (I think he tends to lean more 
to the 'it's OK as long as an able-bodied sysadmin can configure the 
system for the disabled user' side than the 'let the user be 
independent' side), I'll support the decision nonetheless.


I agree with you that "let the user be independent" is best.  However,
I was just highlighting that GDM's a11y has never matured to the point
where it was turned on by default (much like the situation with the rest
of GNOME not having a11y turned on by default).

Therefore, I was just highlighting that the new GDM is pretty much
as good as the old GDM in terms of a11y.  The main area of regression
is that you can not launch a11y on-demand when a11y is turned on.

The ability to launch a11y on demand is really only useful if the
GNOME desktop also supports this feature (which it currently doesn't).
Being able to navigate the login screen independently is not very
useful if you still need someone to help you set up your user
session.  Another use case where the "on-demand launching" feature is
useful is in terminal server situations where many users may be
sharing the same server.  However, the new GDM doesn't support that
anyway, and the release team seems okay with that.  So I don't think
these a11y issues are a real blocker.

This is why the long term goal is to make a11y "on-demand" launching
a part of gnome-settings-daemon so it works the same in both GDM and
the user session.  Then I think we will have gotten to the point where
we all have been pushing to get.

Brian



Vincent Untz wrote:

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008, à 09:46 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit :

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The release-team is going to use gdm trunk for GNOME 2.24.

Note that most release-team members have mixed feelings.
Entire discussion would have been less frustrating if gdm developers 
had

been more responsible to the concerns shared in discussions. Maybe just
my point of view.

Translations of gdm trunk are in a good shape.

Distributors: Old gdm is still available in case you hit a regression.


I'm surprised by this turn of events, after Vincent decreed that we'd
go with 2.20 on Friday...


See
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2008-September/msg00251.html

Vincent



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Any pending Orca translations for 2.24.0?

[Willie Walker]

Hey All:

I must say you all are awesome for all the hard work you've been doing 
with Orca translations.  I've been delaying the release of Orca so as 
many translations as possible could get in.


Are there any translations left to get in?  I need to start doing the 
release soon, but if there are a few translations just about ready to 
go, I can wait.


Thanks again for your work!

Will

(I'll wait until 19:00UTC to do the Orca release)
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Re: Licenses of .po files, and translations

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Gora Mohanty wrote:
> Yes, the copyright undoubtedly belongs to the translator. The
> question involves licensing terms. If the .pot file was under
> the GPL, is the .po file a derivative work, and hence under
> the GPL, too? A secondary question is, if an existing .po
> file, which is explicitly licensed under the GPL, is added to
> by another translator, is the new translation also under the
> GPL?

IANAL, but there's not much room for one's personal opinion here.  The PO
file, no matter how many translators touch it, is definitely a derivative work
of the source code, via the POT file.  The evidence: pieces of the source code
(namely the strings) are still in there, how can this not be a derivative
work?!  Given that, if the source code is GPL'ed, there's no choice left for
the translator.  If he or she distributes the derived work (that is, the
translation) in a license other than GPL it's a violation of the GPL.

There is belief misconception that if someone contributes for an existing
work, he gets to choose under which license his contributions are.  This is
definitely true, but the choices he has are most of the time very, very, 
limited.

behdad

> My opinion would be yes, in both cases, though it is much less
> clear in the first case. There, since the strings are derived
> from the source code, and since the .pot file says that the
> licence is the same as that for the base package, my opinion
> is that if the application is under the GPL, so is the .pot file.
> 
> Maybe we should get a legal opinion on this.
> 
> Regards,
> Gora
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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Claudio Saavedra]

El lun, 22-09-2008 a las 09:00 +0200, Jorge González escribió:
> > I already pleaded with no success for a doc freeze at least 2-3 days
> > before each release (be it .0, .1 ...). It's simply a question of
> > respect for translators. But as long as GNOME doesn't consider
> > translated work as first-class citizen, it won't happen :-(
> yes, I also see at as a question of respect, perhaps we could do some
> spam, we are quite a lot of translators ;)

You should raise this to release-team or at least to desktop-devel-list.

Claudio

-- 
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Igalia

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Re: [Indlinux-group] Issue with script for Kashmiri Localisation

[Pravin S]

Hi Raman,

2008/9/19 RKVS Raman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi,
>
> I checked with our Perso-Arabic research centre ( http://parc.cdac.in/
> )  and  they have confirmed that Arabic is sufficient to represent
> Kashmiri. The code points  that you mentioned are already available in
> Arabic.

Yeah, Kashmiri Language is supported using Arabic script, but in
Devanagari it still needs 4 characters, those are proposed already to
Unicode.

About GNOME l10n for Kashmiri,
check this
http://svn.gnome.org/svn/gtk+/trunk/po/
be.po and [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I think in same way for GNOME l10n kashmiri po files name will be
ks.po for Arabic script and [EMAIL PROTECTED] for Devanagari script.

same thing will apply for Sindhi language as well

Thanks & Regards,
--
Pravin Satpute
Software Engineer,
Internationalization,
Red Hat
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Re: [gdm-list] GDM trunk will be used for GNOME 2.24.

[Peter Korn]

Brian, all,

Do we have a "chicken-and-egg" situation here?  Why do all that is 
necessary in GDM if we don't yet feel that accessibility on the desktop 
is sufficiently stable to have it on by default from the GNOME 
community? (so goes one argument)  At the same time, if we aren't quite 
there yet in login, then we need system administration help to set up 
the initial login, so we can have system administration help to turn it 
on at the desktop (and leave that problem unfixed until later).  
Lather-rinse-repeat.


Meanwhile some distros are leapfrogging GNOME & the core community that 
introduced accessibility and made it a core value by enabling users to 
turn accessibility on with a gesture in their LiveCD, and then the 
installation process turns it on for that user on the desktop.  But this 
is a hack.  And users don't have the experience of full and independent 
accessibility in GNOME; they rather instead have it (and have it 
differently) in some distros.


We should fix this.  And component by component, we shouldn't play a 
game of chicken, insisting that some other component fix it first.



Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect & Principal Engineer,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.




Will:

While I disagree with Brian's assessment (I think he tends to lean 
more to the 'it's OK as long as an able-bodied sysadmin can configure 
the system for the disabled user' side than the 'let the user be 
independent' side), I'll support the decision nonetheless.


I agree with you that "let the user be independent" is best.  However,
I was just highlighting that GDM's a11y has never matured to the point
where it was turned on by default (much like the situation with the rest
of GNOME not having a11y turned on by default).

Therefore, I was just highlighting that the new GDM is pretty much
as good as the old GDM in terms of a11y.  The main area of regression
is that you can not launch a11y on-demand when a11y is turned on.

The ability to launch a11y on demand is really only useful if the
GNOME desktop also supports this feature (which it currently doesn't).
Being able to navigate the login screen independently is not very
useful if you still need someone to help you set up your user
session.  Another use case where the "on-demand launching" feature is
useful is in terminal server situations where many users may be
sharing the same server.  However, the new GDM doesn't support that
anyway, and the release team seems okay with that.  So I don't think
these a11y issues are a real blocker.

This is why the long term goal is to make a11y "on-demand" launching
a part of gnome-settings-daemon so it works the same in both GDM and
the user session.  Then I think we will have gotten to the point where
we all have been pushing to get.

Brian



Vincent Untz wrote:

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008, à 09:46 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit :

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The release-team is going to use gdm trunk for GNOME 2.24.

Note that most release-team members have mixed feelings.
Entire discussion would have been less frustrating if gdm 
developers had
been more responsible to the concerns shared in discussions. Maybe 
just

my point of view.

Translations of gdm trunk are in a good shape.

Distributors: Old gdm is still available in case you hit a 
regression.



I'm surprised by this turn of events, after Vincent decreed that we'd
go with 2.20 on Friday...


See
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2008-September/msg00251.html 



Vincent



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Re: [gdm-list] GDM trunk will be used for GNOME 2.24.

[Brian Cameron]

Willie:

While I disagree with Brian's assessment (I think he tends to lean more 
to the 'it's OK as long as an able-bodied sysadmin can configure the 
system for the disabled user' side than the 'let the user be 
independent' side), I'll support the decision nonetheless.


I wasn't trying to speak for the entire a11y community.  If there are
still issues, then we should still discuss.  The release team has gone
back and forth on this issue a few times already, and it would not
surprise me if that continues a few more times until we get full
consensus.

I was only trying to highlight that one needs to manually configure
GDM to support the launching of AT programs with either the old or new
GDM.  I don't believe any distro turns on a11y by default, so a11y 
features are not enabled by default in either the old or new GDM.

So this issue is not as serious (in my opinion) as was originally
stated.  People seemed to be saying that the old GDM supported
launching AT programs out-of-the-box and the new one does not, and
this is not really true.

The main regression is that the old GDM supported launching AT programs
on-demand via a gesture, while the new GDM you have to specify what
specific AT programs should always be launched along with the GDM GUI.
The ability to launch AT programs on-demand is mostly useful on
systems which support multiple users.  Since the new GDM doesn't
support multi-display anyway, the lack of this feature is somewhat
mitigated.  Most GNOME users won't be using the new GDM in environments
where large numbers of users are using the same server.  Instead the
new GDM is more designed for single-user (or few-user) desktop and
laptop machines.

Also, it doesn't seem much good to have these a11y features available
in GDM unless you have the same features available in the user session.
What good is it to be able to log in if you can't access your session
after logging in without manual help?  The GDM community has already
agreed to fix GNOME so that the same gesture mechanisms will work in
both GDM and gnome-session via gnome-settings-daemon.  This is a much
better long term solution that will make it more feasible to make a11y
turned on by default in GNOME in general in the future.  I think
accepting the new GDM into GNOME 2.24 is more likely to encourage this
work to get done than blocking it.  But that is just my opinion.

In other words, if there still are any serious regressions that need
to be discussed then those issues should be something other than "the
ability to launch AT programs by default without needing help from
someone to configure GDM first."

Brian



Vincent Untz wrote:

Le lundi 22 septembre 2008, à 09:46 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit :

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Andre Klapper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The release-team is going to use gdm trunk for GNOME 2.24.

Note that most release-team members have mixed feelings.
Entire discussion would have been less frustrating if gdm developers 
had

been more responsible to the concerns shared in discussions. Maybe just
my point of view.

Translations of gdm trunk are in a good shape.

Distributors: Old gdm is still available in case you hit a regression.


I'm surprised by this turn of events, after Vincent decreed that we'd
go with 2.20 on Friday...


See
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2008-September/msg00251.html

Vincent



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Re: Evolution branched for GNOME 2.24

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 16:07 +0530, en/na Srinivasa Ragavan va
escriure:
> Guys,
> 
> I created gnome-2-24 branch for Evolution, Evolution-data-server,
> Evolution-Exchange and GtkHTML.
> 
> http://go-evolution.org/Evo2.26 has some planned activity for GNOME
> 2.26.
> 
> -Srini.
> 
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Re: Tomboy branched for GNOME 2.24

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 05:09 -0700, en/na Sandy Armstrong va
escriure:
> Hi all,
> 
> Just branched Tomboy for GNOME 2.24, to a branch named gnome-2-24 [1].
> 
> My plans for next release include:
> * Full Windows/Mac support
> * Performance improvements
> * Fixing some long-standing embarrassing bugs, and general polish
> 
> But we haven't had our roadmap meeting yet, so we'll see what the rest
> of the community is interested in working on.
> 
> Cheers,
> Sandy
> 
> [1] http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/tomboy/branches/gnome-2-24/
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Re: gucharmap branched

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 14:35 +0200, en/na Christian Persch va
escriure:
> Hi;
> 
> gucharmap has been branched for Gnome 2.24; the branch name is
> "gnome-2-24".
> 
>   Christian
> 
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Re: gnome-terminal branched

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 14:48 +0200, en/na Christian Persch va
escriure:
> Hi;
> 
> gnome-terminal has been branched for Gnome 2.24; the branch name is
> "gnome-2-24".
> 
> Christian
> 
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Re: gnome-games branched

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 16:49 +0200, en/na Christian Persch va
escriure:
> Hi;
> 
> gnome-games was branched for 2.24; the branch name is "gnome-2-24".
> 
>   Christian
> 
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Re: gnome-themes branched

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 16:27 +0100, en/na Calum Benson va
escriure:
> Have just branched gnome-themes for 2.24.  Feature development should  
> continue on trunk, gnome-2-24 is for translations and bugfixes only.
> 
> Cheeri,
> Calum.

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Re: Modified strings up to release date

[Jorge González González]

El lun, 22-09-2008 a las 17:43 +0200, Claude Paroz escribió:
> Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 09:53 -0500, Shaun McCance a écrit :
> > On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:45 +0200, Claude Paroz wrote:
> > > Le lundi 22 septembre 2008 à 11:01 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit :
> > > > Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 07:01 +0200 schrieb Jorge González González:
> > > > > there have been modifications of document strings up to the very same
> > > > > date of release, this is very sad. We already talked about "freezing"
> > > > > somehow doc translations so we could do our job, but developers keep
> > > > > updating it up to today.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I know there is no freeze for docs, but still, you, developers, cannot
> > > > > think we can translate like this.
> > > > 
> > > > I think we have this discussion in release-team every time we meet.
> > > > It boils down to the problem "Having better (updated) english
> > > > documentation vs. having more translated (but outdated) documentation".
> > > > Pick your poison.
> > > > For me it looks less useful to have translated but outdated docs.
> > > 
> > > Sorry Andre, but I completely disagree here. The choice is not the one
> > > you presented. I could say the same with other freezes. E.g. with the UI
> > > freeze : do you want better and more polished UI rather than well tested
> > > and documented but minimal and uglier ones because of the freeze...
> > 
> > As I've pointed out before, this analogy doesn't hold water.
> > It's not a matter of making the documentation more polished.
> > It's a matter of making it correct.
> > 
> > If a program needs a string addition to give a user information
> > in the case of some error, that's polish.  If the documentation
> > is telling you to click on button XYZ, but button XYZ does not
> > exist in the program, that's just flat out wrong.  There is no
> > point in translating that sentence, because there are exactly
> > zero users who would be helped by reading it.
> 
> I don't contest the need to correct this, but the timeframe to do it.
> Moreover, freezes have exception processes, so obvious and critical
> errors could still be committed.
> 
> > > It's a matter of process. When you put a freeze in place, you're simply
> > > telling people that they have to do their job in a specific timeframe.
> > > The objective here is to have updated AND translated docs.
> > 
> > Stormy had a great blog post a few days back, talking about
> > how project releases are constrained by time, resources, and
> > scope.  We currently have a fixed amount of time, and have a
> > very difficult time increasing our resources (i.e. writers).
> > Our scope (i.e. documentation quality) suffers.
> > 
> > If you decrease our time without increasing our resources,
> > documentation quality will suffer.
> 
> Please, please... we're talking about a some (3?) days freeze in a
> schedule of six months.
I totally agree.

> 
> > Please don't claim there is no respect for translators, as
> > you did in a previous email.  That's pure flamebait.
> 
> When you pass tenth of hours to translate a big document and you see
> half of it unvalidated by an update some hours before the release, try
> to imagine the feeling of the translator...
> 
> >   I put
> > a lot of work (along with Danilo) into making translators
> > able to do documentation with po files.  I wrote an entire
> > DocBook toolchain in part because the existing solutions
> > didn't serve our translators well.
and we are verey grateful, belive me, now translating the help files
is much more easy, that's probably why there are more files translated.

> > 
> > I have put a lot of development time into making sure you
> > can have properly translated documentation.  But I will
> > not take precious time away from our few valiant writers,
> > just so you can have a translated version of a document
> > that's not even correct or helpful in English.
well, obviously is good to have updated documentation, but if you can't
read it because you don't speak/read English, you probably care the
same, which is nothing.

> 
> And you know that I'm also one of these few (albeit a minor one).
> 
> We both defend our respective position (doc writer/translator). IMHO
> both are somewhat valid but unfortunately they conflict... and I don't
> see this thread going to change anything right now.
> 
> Claude
> 
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mousetweaks branched for GNOME 2.24

[Francesco Fumanti]

Hello,


Please, note that mousetweaks has been branched for GNOME 2.24.

The new development will continue in trunk (2.25.1).


Best regards,


Francesco Fumanti
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Ekiga branched for GNOME 2.24

[Damien Sandras]

Hello,


I created a new branch for Ekiga 3.00 and GNOME 2.24. I also created a
tag for the 3.00 release.

We will continue fixing things in the GNOME 2.24 branch, and new
features will be committed to TRUNK.

The GNOME 2.24 branch thus contains Ekiga 3.0.x code.

Thank you,
-- 
 _ Damien Sandras
(o-  
//\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/
v_/_   NOVACOM : http://www.novacom.be/
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BillReminder has branched

[Og Maciel]

BillReminder has been branched. Development will continue on trunk and
the current stable version is billreminder-0.3.2.

Could someone update D-L?

Cheers,
-- 
Og B. Maciel

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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GPG Keys: D5CFC202

http://www.ogmaciel.com (en_US)
http://blog.ogmaciel.com (pt_BR)
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Re: Licenses of .po files, and translations

[Leonardo F. Fontenelle]

Em Seg, 2008-09-22 às 10:53 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug escreveu:
> 
> It is/may be derivative work, but the copyright to a translation belongs
> to the translator by default.
> 
> Since it is or may be derivative, the translator mostly can't do
> whatever she likes with the translation, but nobody else can do anything
> with the translation unless the translator says so.
> 

If it's derivative work, it's copyrighted by the translators as well as
those who wrote the strings in the source code. And if it's derivative
work from GPL'ed software, it's GPL'ed as well. But it's simpler to say
"under the same license as the ... package."

-- 
Leonardo Fontenelle
http://leonardof.org

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GOK branched for GNOME 2.24

[Gerd Kohlberger]

Hi,

GOK has been branched for GNOME 2.24. Development will continue in trunk.


cheers,
Gerd
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Re: Ekiga branched for GNOME 2.24

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 23:15 +0200, en/na Damien Sandras va
escriure:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I created a new branch for Ekiga 3.00 and GNOME 2.24. I also created a
> tag for the 3.00 release.
> 
> We will continue fixing things in the GNOME 2.24 branch, and new
> features will be committed to TRUNK.
> 
> The GNOME 2.24 branch thus contains Ekiga 3.0.x code.
> 
> Thank you,
-- 
gil forcada

[ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer
[en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network
bloc: http://gil.badall.net

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Re: mousetweaks branched for GNOME 2.24

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 21:40 +0200, en/na Francesco Fumanti va
escriure:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> Please, note that mousetweaks has been branched for GNOME 2.24.
> 
> The new development will continue in trunk (2.25.1).
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 
> Francesco Fumanti
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-- 
gil forcada

[ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer
[en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network
bloc: http://gil.badall.net

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Re: cheese branched

[Gil Forcada]

Hi,

DL updated.

Cheers,

El dl 22 de 09 de 2008 a les 21:21 +0200, en/na daniel g. siegel va
escriure:
> i just branched cheese for 2.24. feature development should  
> continue on trunk, gnome-2-24 is for translations and bugfixes only.
> 
> thanks!
> 
> daniel
> 
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-- 
gil forcada

[ca] guifi.net - una xarxa lliure que no para de créixer
[en] guifi.net - a non-stopping free network
bloc: http://gil.badall.net

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