Re: Mistakes in doc translations
Le lundi 16 avril 2012 à 18:34 -0400, Shaun McCance a écrit : On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 23:04 +0200, Bruno Brouard wrote: Le lundi 16 avril 2012 à 22:14 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit : On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 21:01 +0200, Bruno Brouard wrote: I am sorry, i don't understand what you mean. Is it possible to have an example? To put it into other words: Shaun fixed something in Git, and the translators OVERWROTE the fix with his/her next commit to Git. Thank you again, I am not stupid :-) But Shaun speak specifically of markup mistakes and said I don't know what everybody's workflow is, but probably some translators treat what's on their machine as canonical, and copy it over without ever trying to merge. I don't understand this previous sentence. Can HE give a concrete example of the error (that maybe i am doing)? As the message is intended to all commiters, i think it is better to be clearer, even if it is necessary to name someone. If i am doing mistake, i want to learn my mistake. I am just a human. I have corrected markup errors in the French translations. See my commits here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/log/gnome-help/fr/fr.po But the errors are always new errors. As an example of my corrections being overwritten, look at the Slovenian translations. Here's a commit I made about two weeks ago: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/commit/gnome-help/sl/sl.po?id=34f54c24c2d69d94fdf4124436c84b2d977045e0 Markup mistakes are very hard to identify visually even on your link. I have a script that check that open markup correspond to close markup but it is not sufficient! I will have a look at https://launchpad.net/pyg3t tools but if anybody had a tuto or a script that works, I am interested. And here's the commit I made today: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/commit/gnome-help/sl/sl.po?id=4f68f59f5da11f193cc4eaa91c34c4c9f6e045b7 This is the workflow that usually leads to these kinds of problems: 1) Get the file from git and copy it to some folder somewhere. 2) Edit the file. 3) Update your git repository, or clone it fresh. 4) Copy the file from some folder into the repository and commit. Thank you for your very clear answer. This is exactly my workflow. I follow this guideline : http://live.gnome.org/TranslationProject/GitHowTo Questions ? - If we push the po file on Damned Lies, get back the merged file and push it to git, will it solve the problem? - Is there a git command to use before commiting or pushing to solve the problem? (it should be written in the guideline) . Using this workflow, you will never get merges of other people's work. If anybody else edits the files you edit, you will always overwrite whatever they do. And I realize many translators are used to basically owning their own po files and not having to worry about other people editing them. But module maintainers have to be able to fix syntax errors. And until we get better tool support (like the kinds of checks you all already have for format strings), we'll continue to see these mistakes. Translators, proofreaders and commiters do hopefully not have to be in computer science domain. I am not a programmer and not used to git. If i have to read the git manual before committing, it would be very discouraging. Bruno -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Mistakes in doc translations
Bruno, Following the workflow under DL will solve this kind of problems, since you don't have to deal directly with Git. Also, DL merges you translations with the main POT file, dinamically generated from the source code, so if a developer adds new strings to a module, PO file will be updated with these changes in DL, but not in Git. In the other hand, there are two ways to check syntax in a PO file: Gtranslator checks variables automatically (if the original strings says %d files but you translate %i files it will show a warning message); also, using gtxml you will be able to check your markup syntax with a simple command: gtxml -c filename.po (-c option highlights error in red). We are working to get gtxml working in Gtranslator, but it isn't still completed. We will notice it when it be commited Best regards El día 17 de abril de 2012 09:25, bruno anno...@gmail.com escribió: Le lundi 16 avril 2012 à 18:34 -0400, Shaun McCance a écrit : On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 23:04 +0200, Bruno Brouard wrote: Le lundi 16 avril 2012 à 22:14 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit : On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 21:01 +0200, Bruno Brouard wrote: I am sorry, i don't understand what you mean. Is it possible to have an example? To put it into other words: Shaun fixed something in Git, and the translators OVERWROTE the fix with his/her next commit to Git. Thank you again, I am not stupid :-) But Shaun speak specifically of markup mistakes and said I don't know what everybody's workflow is, but probably some translators treat what's on their machine as canonical, and copy it over without ever trying to merge. I don't understand this previous sentence. Can HE give a concrete example of the error (that maybe i am doing)? As the message is intended to all commiters, i think it is better to be clearer, even if it is necessary to name someone. If i am doing mistake, i want to learn my mistake. I am just a human. I have corrected markup errors in the French translations. See my commits here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/log/gnome-help/fr/fr.po But the errors are always new errors. As an example of my corrections being overwritten, look at the Slovenian translations. Here's a commit I made about two weeks ago: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/commit/gnome-help/sl/sl.po?id=34f54c24c2d69d94fdf4124436c84b2d977045e0 Markup mistakes are very hard to identify visually even on your link. I have a script that check that open markup correspond to close markup but it is not sufficient! I will have a look at https://launchpad.net/pyg3t tools but if anybody had a tuto or a script that works, I am interested. And here's the commit I made today: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/commit/gnome-help/sl/sl.po?id=4f68f59f5da11f193cc4eaa91c34c4c9f6e045b7 This is the workflow that usually leads to these kinds of problems: 1) Get the file from git and copy it to some folder somewhere. 2) Edit the file. 3) Update your git repository, or clone it fresh. 4) Copy the file from some folder into the repository and commit. Thank you for your very clear answer. This is exactly my workflow. I follow this guideline : http://live.gnome.org/TranslationProject/GitHowTo Questions ? - If we push the po file on Damned Lies, get back the merged file and push it to git, will it solve the problem? - Is there a git command to use before commiting or pushing to solve the problem? (it should be written in the guideline) . Using this workflow, you will never get merges of other people's work. If anybody else edits the files you edit, you will always overwrite whatever they do. And I realize many translators are used to basically owning their own po files and not having to worry about other people editing them. But module maintainers have to be able to fix syntax errors. And until we get better tool support (like the kinds of checks you all already have for format strings), we'll continue to see these mistakes. Translators, proofreaders and commiters do hopefully not have to be in computer science domain. I am not a programmer and not used to git. If i have to read the git manual before committing, it would be very discouraging. Bruno -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Mistakes in doc translations
[: bruno :] Translators, proofreaders and commiters do hopefully not have to be in computer science domain. I am not a programmer and not used to git. If i have to read the git manual before committing, it would be very discouraging. Source version control (with Git or any other tool) is here only circumstantial to the actual issue, which has nothing to do with programming. And this issue can be described with the following question: can two people work on the same PO file at the same time, and if yes, how? I consider this question as still being open. If the answer is no, then authors should not touch PO files. They should only disable PO files when invalid (whatever that means in the particular context) and notify the translator in charge. For both of these actions, means as automatic as possible should be sought. (And on translators' side, locking mechanisms, either technical or organizational, should be established.) If the answer is yes, then the the how must be answered. It is not sufficient to relegate how to standard version control procedures, treating PO files as any other source file. Technically, because a PO file is not pure source file, but half-derived half-source, and has only weak line-level semantics; together this precludes line-level diffing, which is the core of version control procedures. Organizationally, because true source files are typically small and rarely under immediate interest of more than one author, whereas many translators can meaningfully modify a given PO file (unless it covers a topic which requires a specialized translator); this makes PO file conflicts much more likely. -- Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Mistakes in doc translations
Op Ma, 2012-04-16 om 18:34 -0400 skryf Shaun McCance: And I realize many translators are used to basically owning their own po files and not having to worry about other people editing them. But module maintainers have to be able to fix syntax errors. And until we get better tool support (like the kinds of checks you all already have for format strings), we'll continue to see these mistakes. The workflow I use is to rather download the file afresh from Damned Lies, since I don't always know if I have the right versions of intltool, etc. on my system. I trust the files from Damned Lies to be based on a correctly extracted POT file, and to contain the latest from version control. For a maintainer I think it might be useful to contact translators who might have submitted something like this to ensure that our skills improve over time. Virtaal and pofilter would have been able to detect these and other errors, so I want to encourage translators to use it. They seem to complain about a few cases that might be ok (mostly reordering of tags), but it helps a lot to find issues that can affect the functionality and quality of the translated version. I see that it doesn't give a detailed error of the tag or property that is wrong, so maybe we can work on identifying such cases to improve it for a next version, but it already saves a lot of time, I believe. Shaun, pofilter flags a few remaining issues after your edits. I guess as long as it builds, it isn't catastrophe, but I thought you might be interested. (Or maybe I don't know how much freedom we actually have to alter the tags when translating. :-) Keep well Friedel -- Recently on my blog: http://translate.org.za/blogs/friedel/en/content/survey-about-usability-virtaal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Mistakes in doc translations
Hello, following this debate I noticed Slovenian translation being used as an example. In our local copy, that gets updated directly from POT file, these errors do NOT exist! in the gnome-help file. I have no idea how this happens, but I do remember correcting them before. We always update local copy of the file with published POT and we have only ONE local copy of the file. I will again check for this and similar errors. M! On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote: On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 23:04 +0200, Bruno Brouard wrote: Le lundi 16 avril 2012 à 22:14 +0200, Andre Klapper a écrit : On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 21:01 +0200, Bruno Brouard wrote: I am sorry, i don't understand what you mean. Is it possible to have an example? To put it into other words: Shaun fixed something in Git, and the translators OVERWROTE the fix with his/her next commit to Git. Thank you again, I am not stupid :-) But Shaun speak specifically of markup mistakes and said I don't know what everybody's workflow is, but probably some translators treat what's on their machine as canonical, and copy it over without ever trying to merge. I don't understand this previous sentence. Can HE give a concrete example of the error (that maybe i am doing)? As the message is intended to all commiters, i think it is better to be clearer, even if it is necessary to name someone. If i am doing mistake, i want to learn my mistake. I am just a human. I have corrected markup errors in the French translations. See my commits here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/log/gnome-help/fr/fr.po But the errors are always new errors. As an example of my corrections being overwritten, look at the Slovenian translations. Here's a commit I made about two weeks ago: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/commit/gnome-help/sl/sl.po?id=34f54c24c2d69d94fdf4124436c84b2d977045e0 And here's the commit I made today: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/commit/gnome-help/sl/sl.po?id=4f68f59f5da11f193cc4eaa91c34c4c9f6e045b7 This is the workflow that usually leads to these kinds of problems: 1) Get the file from git and copy it to some folder somewhere. 2) Edit the file. 3) Update your git repository, or clone it fresh. 4) Copy the file from some folder into the repository and commit. Using this workflow, you will never get merges of other people's work. If anybody else edits the files you edit, you will always overwrite whatever they do. And I realize many translators are used to basically owning their own po files and not having to worry about other people editing them. But module maintainers have to be able to fix syntax errors. And until we get better tool support (like the kinds of checks you all already have for format strings), we'll continue to see these mistakes. -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Mistakes in doc translations
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 13:07 +0200, Matej Urban wrote: Hello, following this debate I noticed Slovenian translation being used as an example. In our local copy, that gets updated directly from POT file, these errors do NOT exist! in the gnome-help file. I have no idea how this happens, but I do remember correcting them before. We always update local copy of the file with published POT and we have only ONE local copy of the file. The problem isn't about updating with the POT file. The problem is about not merging with the PO file from git.gnome.org. You say you have one local copy of the PO file. Is that file sitting in a git checkout, such that doing git pull will merge changes? That's the correct way to use version control. -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
libsoup now has translations
In git master, libsoup now has translations. (Only like 3 strings at the moment, but there will be more as the release cycle progresses.) -- Dan ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Mistakes in doc translations
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 10:43 +0200, Chusslove Illich wrote: [: bruno :] Translators, proofreaders and commiters do hopefully not have to be in computer science domain. I am not a programmer and not used to git. If i have to read the git manual before committing, it would be very discouraging. Source version control (with Git or any other tool) is here only circumstantial to the actual issue, which has nothing to do with programming. And this issue can be described with the following question: can two people work on the same PO file at the same time, and if yes, how? I consider this question as still being open. The answer is plainly yes, if you use version control correctly. PO files might have some characteristics that make some things harder, but they're not so special that they're outside the realm of git. If the answer is yes, then the the how must be answered. It is not sufficient to relegate how to standard version control procedures, treating PO files as any other source file. Technically, because a PO file is not pure source file, but half-derived half-source, This is true. If you and another person both do a msgmerge with a new POT file, you're going to get conflicts. It sucks. But I assure you, everybody else in GNOME deals with conflicts too. It's a fact of life. and has only weak line-level semantics; together this precludes line-level diffing, which is the core of version control procedures. PO files are more line-oriented than XML files. Will you get diff noise from rewraps? Sure. But we all manage. Organizationally, because true source files are typically small and rarely under immediate interest of more than one author, whereas many translators can meaningfully modify a given PO file (unless it covers a topic which requires a specialized translator); this makes PO file conflicts much more likely. About a dozen people regularly commit to the same Mallard page files in gnome-user-docs. Not a single one of the files belongs to only one person. I regularly commit to files written by someone else. It does work, as long as you use version control correctly. -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
String additions to 'gtk+.master'
This is an automatic notification from status generation scripts on: http://l10n.gnome.org. There have been following string additions to module 'gtk+.master': + Animated + Set if the value can be animated Note that this doesn't directly indicate a string freeze break, but it might be worth investigating. http://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/log/?h=master ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Mistakes in doc translations
NO, :) I pull, update and push. M! On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote: On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 13:07 +0200, Matej Urban wrote: Hello, following this debate I noticed Slovenian translation being used as an example. In our local copy, that gets updated directly from POT file, these errors do NOT exist! in the gnome-help file. I have no idea how this happens, but I do remember correcting them before. We always update local copy of the file with published POT and we have only ONE local copy of the file. The problem isn't about updating with the POT file. The problem is about not merging with the PO file from git.gnome.org. You say you have one local copy of the PO file. Is that file sitting in a git checkout, such that doing git pull will merge changes? That's the correct way to use version control. -- Shaun ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
