Re: Issue with script for Kashmiri Localisation
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:11:59 +0530 RKVS Raman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Attached is the Perso-Arabic code chart for Kashmiri which I have got from our Perso-Arabic entre ( http://parc.cdac.in ). Do let me know if there are any code points which have not yet been represented. [...] Thank you very much. I will forward this to the University of Kashmir folk. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Licenses of .po files, and translations
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:53:21 +0200 Gudmund Areskoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Axel Hecht skrev: FWIW, in the Mozilla project, we consider translations to be derivative work. Which is what we consider, I wouldn't know that any lawyer looked at it for us. It is/may be derivative work, but the copyright to a translation belongs to the translator by default. Since it is or may be derivative, the translator mostly can't do whatever she likes with the translation, but nobody else can do anything with the translation unless the translator says so. Yes, the copyright undoubtedly belongs to the translator. The question involves licensing terms. If the .pot file was under the GPL, is the .po file a derivative work, and hence under the GPL, too? A secondary question is, if an existing .po file, which is explicitly licensed under the GPL, is added to by another translator, is the new translation also under the GPL? My opinion would be yes, in both cases, though it is much less clear in the first case. There, since the strings are derived from the source code, and since the .pot file says that the licence is the same as that for the base package, my opinion is that if the application is under the GPL, so is the .pot file. Maybe we should get a legal opinion on this. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Issue with script for Kashmiri Localisation
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:27:23 +0530 RKVS Raman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, The Kashmiri language can be written in 2 scripts, one is Devnagari and other is Perso-Arabic. Is it possible to have both scripts supported in GNOME l10n for Kashmiri? Yes, should be possible by adding variants. The larger problem with Kashmiri is that it needs Unicode points for certain vowels that have no equivalent in Arabic. This is something that we learnt from folk at the University of Kashmir, who are working on a font including these changes. A proposal to add these points to the Devanagari script is also apparently under discussion with Unicode, and someone should start one for Arabic. I am not sure how the current translations have been done in the face of such issues. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Issue with script for Kashmiri Localisation
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:08:35 +0530 RKVS Raman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I checked with our Perso-Arabic research centre ( http://parc.cdac.in/ ) and they have confirmed that Arabic is sufficient to represent Kashmiri. The code points that you mentioned are already available in Arabic. Hmm, I am by no means an expert on this, but the Kashmiri language folk at the university gave us a detailed exposition on exactly what codepoints were needed. These are apparently vowels that have no equivalent in Arabic, Urdu, etc. I have asked for a supporting standards document which i will circulate across for your reference. Sure, that would be good to have. I will pass it along to the people who know Kashmiri, or I can send you their address off-list so you can get in touch with them directly. Please give me till Sun., as I am occupied with an event here. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: [Indlinux-group] Non-community-based approaches to localisation
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 10:49:09 +0530 RKVS Raman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My name is RKVS Raman and I represent the localisation team in CDAC as far as OpenOffice is concerned. By all probabilities I am the person, Gora refers to about his experience with CDAC guys. Actually, no it isn't you. I thought that we had gone through this before, and to my mind you are one of the people from CDAC who actually does make an effort to work with the community. I am sorry to have seemingly riled you up. This mail is intended to make the stand of the l10n group at CDAC clear to the community and offer some explanation to the scathing accusations that Gora and others have made on CDAC. At the end of this mail I do hope CDAC contribution will be more welcome in the community. I am sorry, what scathing accusations? I was relating my personal experience, and still stand by what I have said many times: CDAC does some very valuable work, but I see little effort to do this in a participatory fashion. One clear example of this is what we have been discussing in this thread: Localisation done for some 18 languages, which were distributed with BossLinux, but not submitted back upstream, and I have yet to hear from any existing language team coordinator that they had been contacted by BossLinux folk. Other people have also pointed out flaws with the process that BossLinux has chosen for localisation. [...] When working under deadlines, it was our observation that sometimes (not all) the response from l10n communities for certain languages was absent and for certain others sluggish. Oriya was one of them. I have mails written to me by Gora in which he said that they were low on resources at that time. During a meeting with him in FOSS.IN, he had said that he cannot work towards our deadlines. I did say that we were low on resources, but specifically volunteered to participate myself in the first, important step, the standardisation of the glossary of terms. We also agreed, not only amongst the two of us, but with other people from CDAC, that we would be willing to review translations at an intermediate stage. None of this happened. [...] Here is an organisation which is willing to make crucial contributions to the community at its own defined speed. [...] At the same time few of us in the organisation do make sure that we don't lock our efforts in our own backup servers. We share it. We have always done it with OpenOffice and are now trying to do so for GNOME. I am surprised at the resistance we get when we are trying to do this. Um, I have pointed out the reasons for this in my original mail. Your translations of GNOME, at least as far as Oriya goes, did not follow the standard terminology used by the existing language team, and also sometimes missed the intended context in computer terms. This makes it difficult to suddenly integrate a large chunk of translations. Things would have gone much more smoothly if this integration could have happened a bit at a time, on a longer timescale. Should a major chunk of contribution go unnoticed just because we did not satisfy the egos of those in 'power'? I would not want to believe so. It would have been easy for us to just integrate it with our distro and be done with our work. We would have satisfied our funding agency, but we dont believe in it. We don't want to work in isolation. But no, we are not apologizing to anybody either. Since the impression at CDAC seems to be that it is doing people a favour by making the translated .po files available, I would like to point out that since Indian-language interfaces are distributed as binaries on the BossLinux CD, and since many of the .po files are covered by the GPL, CDAC is *required* to make such source .po files available upon request. I now volunteer to be that liaison between open source communities and CDAC if need be. I have personally shared cordial relationships with ppl in IndLinux and so i with some of my colleagues from the distro l10n team can work towards making sure that the difference in methodologies do not hurt the larger goals. [...] Great to hear that, and please believe me, I meant no personal criticism in my original message. Can we now agree to let bygones be bygones and try to move forward? The .po files at http://downloads.bosslinux.in/Translated_Po_files/ seem to have disappeared. Can we get them back? Is it possible for you to devote some resources to submitting files upstream? We should also probably drop the gnome-i18n list from any follow-ups. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Licenses of .po files, and translations
Hi, I need a clarification on the licensing of .po files. As per my understanding, both the .pot template files, and the .po files for individual languages, assert copyright, and licence restrictions, with the usual licensing terms being the same as for the package itself. Thus, as I see it, for an application licensed under the GPL, the .pot files, and the .po files are also GPL-licensed. Therefore, the following requirements ensue for a GPLed application: (a) A distribution with local-language translations of the application is obliged to provide, upon request, copies of the source .po file for each language. (b) Any modifications to existing .po file translations for any language also automatically fall under the GPL. I would like to hear whether people agree with this. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Non-community-based approaches to localisation
(Deleted all personal addresses. Get yer info from lists.) On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:23:13 +0100 Simos Xenitellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Dear Simos, Thank you for your message. Such input, from yourself, and other GNOME localisation folk, who undoubtedly have a broader perspective, is exactly the reason that I posted this message here. It is possible that I am letting my own parochial prejudices outweigh more long-term interests. The part that I think that is surprising is that a big organisation (in this case C-DAC), took the initiative to put resources to carry out large-scale open-source localisation. [...] Yes, the fact that they did do the localisation is great, and something that at least I personally have lauded. The fact that the open-source l10n communities in India were not consulted before the C-DAC localisation work, looks to me as a common mistake, and does not surprise me. The way that open-source communities work is just too different, and you can expect such issues. I will concede your point about government agencies not knowing how (also, at least in India, probably not able) to deal with a FOSS community; with its rambunctious, devil-may-care attitude. However, this is far from being an isolated case, and in my past experience over the past five or so years, it has always been the FOSS community, largely with *unpaid* (and, I do wish to emphasise that fact, given the huge amounts of money that have gone into CDAC work) volunteers that have tried to bend over backwards. What I see that was missing and still is, is a person to act as liaison between the open-source localisation communities of India and C-DAC. I took up somewhat this role during the discussion some months ago, but it just looks awkward for me to be further involved. Could someone pick up this task? Let me give you an example of such an effort, from *my* personal experience. My native tongue is Oriya, and when CDAC started localising OpenOffice into Oriya, I was pleasantly surprised to have the head of the effort contact me, and was all gung-ho about it. We gave them what we had of the OpenOffice glossary (1/3rd complete, from my personal effort), and asked them to finish the glossary, and talk to us so that we could ensure consistency. No response from CDAC for several months, despite several reminders from my side. Six months or so, later I get a message saying that Oriya localisation of OpenOffice is complete, though now it has been three years and they have apparently not yet deemed it fit to see that OpenOffice packages this. Also, the translations have little relation to our glossary. For OpenOffice, please do not take just my word for it. Please talk to Louis Suarez-Potts, one of the leading lights of OpenOffice. I have little doubt that other community localisers have had similar experiences. What you have in hand is that there is a big organisation which showed interest some months ago with l10n, and it might still have interest in open-source localisation. It's up to you to lead the way with C-DAC, in localisation or other open-source activities. Sure, we are willing to meet them three-quarters of the way, and definitely there are encouraging signs from among the younger folk at CDAC. This whole thread arose because someone from CDAC was actually willing to approach us. But, please do not blame *us* for being unresponsive. That hurts. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Licenses of .po files, and translations
On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 23:08:13 +0200 Claude Paroz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Yes, completely agree. The sentence This file is distributed under the same license as the package package. is absolutely clear. Yes, I thought so too, but wanted to verify it, as I had never heard of an earlier instance of such a thing. Thanks for your input. If you suspect license violation, your first approach should be to ask friendly for correction and source publication. [...] But legal action should be a last resort solution. Most definitely. We want to get things resolved, and not fight endless, and resource-consuming legal battles. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Non-community-based approaches to localisation
Hi, The GNOME localisation community in India is faced with a very peculiar situation, and it would be good to arrive at a consensus on how to deal with this. The BossLinux (http://bosslinux.in/) folk based at CDAC-Chennai have gone ahead, and translated large parts of GNOME (I believe version 2.18) into 18 Indian languages. These are available at http://downloads.bosslinux.in/Translated_Po_files/ I applaud the scale of this effort, but unfortunately there are some serious drawbacks here that make it difficult, if not impossible for this work to be integrated into GNOME: 1. I know of no attempt to contact existing language teams prior to starting on this work. This is true at least of Bengali, Hindi, Malayalam, and Oriya. Worse yet, the language team line in the .po file header has been changed to some CDAC address, which can only lead to myriad problems down the road. 2. As CDAC made no attempt to talk to people about consistency, the translation terms used are out of sync with accepted ones that were used earlier. At least for Hindi, and now increasingly for other language, the terms that the FOSS community uses are reviewed by outsiders. 3. The translation quality is low, at least in the Oriya .po files that I saw. For example, parent as in parent process has been translated into the equivalent of biological parent. 4. CDAC has offered these files up for the community to submit upstream, but has apparently no intentions of being involved in the process. From what I can see, and after discussions on #indlinux, here is what I see as a possible approach: (a) For languages that are, say more than 60% complete, I see little benefit in trying to integrate these files, because of points 2, and 3 above. For Oriya, I will ask the Redhat person who now does the bulk of the work to make a judgement call. (b) For languages that have not been started, or are at a very low level, it might make more sense for people to integrate these files. However, even here there are issues, such as unsolved Unicode problems for some languages like Kashmiri. I am not sure how CDAC has done translations in spite of these. I strongly feel that good-quality translations are more important rather than just ticking off a box for having added another language, and would be against the lazy way out of just integrating these files without a review. (c) The list of CDAC language translations with existing teams: Assamese, Bengali, Hindi, Gujarati, Kannada, Kashmiri, Maithili, Malayalam, Marathi, Oriya, Punjabi, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu. There is an incipient team for Sanskrit, and no teams yet for the CDAC translations into Bodo, Konkani, and Manipuri. I suggest that existing teams take a call on trying to integrate these translations, and someone with at least a working knowledge of Bodo, Konkani, and Manipuri step forward to start teams. Would like to hear your views. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Review needed for Pango language sample strings
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:12:51 -0400 Behdad Esfahbod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Pango keeps a single string (sentence) per language that it uses internally and also exposes for other applications to use (in a font dialog for example). [...] I'm now asking translation teams to review the sentence for their language now. Please file a bug against pango at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/ if you think a sample string needs to be changed. [...] The Hindi string as it stands looks good, except for a small error in the word that is third from last. Have filed a bug, and also another one from Oriya, a language missing from the list. Have also forwarded your message to the IndLinux mailing list, so that speakers of other Indian languages can chime in. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Cheesy
On Fri, 2008-01-25 at 09:09 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: [...] Translating the cheese package, my friend raised a question: what does cheesy in A cheesy program to take photos ... mean? It looks like cheese, or it's of poor quality, or it tends to cause smiles like when saying cheese? [...] Cheesy generally means of poor quality. Here, it is most likely being used tongue-in-cheek, and is also a pun on the name of the package. This is difficult to translate, but I think that the closest equivalent would be fun program..., or not-so-important program Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Fwd: GNOME Kannada glossary
On Wed, 2007-05-02 at 22:03 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote: Hello, I have attached an almost complete Kannada glossary(kn_IN). I have not received any response from the Gnome Kannada localisation coordinator and hence request that the glossary be committed by anyone. [...] I could commit it, but I believe that there has to be a formal effort to contact the coordinator. So, would the Kannada coordinator please respond. This message is copied to him, and to another person active in Kannada FOSS localisation. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Using a compendium with gettext
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 20:15 +0100, Ole Laursen wrote: Hi! Someone in the Danish team is working on getting a common compendium set up. It would be nice if you could augment a .po file with strings from the compendium, with the caveat that the extracted compendium strings should be marked fuzzy so they can be checked (sucking in strings used in another context is not exactly safe). Does anyone here know how to do this? [...] kbabel apparently has support for compendiums, though I have not personally used this feature. Regards, Gora ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Please commit po files (esperanto translation)
--- Christian Rose [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/27/06, Guillaume Savaton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: here are two new files from the esperanto translation team, ready to be commited. [...] It seems Gora already committed those files. Gora, if you commit at someone elses request on the mailing list, please also let others know when you have committed so that we don't unnecessarily waste our time looking up already resolved commit requests. Thanks, Oops, sorry. I had informed the coordinators that made the original request, but had not thought it necessary to tell the list at large. I will do so from now on. Regards, Gora Send instant messages to your online friends http://in.messenger.yahoo.com brbr Stay connected with your friends even when away from PC. Link: http://in.mobile.yahoo.com/new/messenger/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: gtk+ non-update
--- Clytie Siddall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I don't understand why some modules don't follow the standard HEAD and gnome-VERSION branches, and in this case it may even have caused dysfunction. Please, developers, when you branch, stick to the standard format. It helps us, since we don't have to try and remember all these odd branches, and thus it helps you, because we get our translations committed in the right place. [...] To answer part of your question, there is usually a good reason that some packages have a different numbering scheme, usually because they are also used independently of GNOME. I also found remembering unusual branch names a problem, till I realised that one could get the appropriate branch name from l10n-status.gnome.org, for the particular version of GNOME to which the commits are to be made. Maybe this fact needs to go into the GNOME translator's HOW-TO. Regards, Gora __ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner now. Go to http://yahoo.shaadi.com ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Kbabel 2 .po file sources
--- Vladimer Sichinava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested if Kbabel has a feature to open 2 same module's files with different languages? The main reason is to have 2 well known languages sources to make a better translation. How do you mean open? In separate windows? That is, of course, possible, but I suspect that you mean something else. Regards, Gora __ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner now. Go to http://yahoo.shaadi.com ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Problem accessing GNOME CVS
Hi, I am the coordinator for the Oriya translation team, and have made several commits in the past. Over the last few months, we have not committed anything, as the project had stagnated. However, we now have a fresh impetus to complete GNOME localization in Oriya, and I was trying to make some new commits, following the instructions at http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/gnome-i18n/translator.html, but run into the problem that I am asked for a password for an account at cvs.gnome.org. I do not recall this happening before, nor do I have a record of any such password. I have even tried to regenerate my SSH keys as per http://sysadmin.gnome.org/users/security.html, but that does not help. Could someone look into this? I can send details about my user name, etc., by private email. Thanks. Regards, Gora __ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner now. Go to http://yahoo.shaadi.com ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
