Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Petr Kovar skrev:

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32
+0700:


On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008
14:00:06 +0700:


Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
and the icon theming methods.

Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)

And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to
change the logo.

In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
secondary logo.

Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste
likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture,
right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be
a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA.

There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western
cultures.


Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have
rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And
I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level
of familiarity with Western culture.


While on interpreting assignment, I've met factory workers with
(otherwise) zero knowledge of Italian operating an assembly line with an
Italian UI. The translation the supplier had promised simply never
materialized in any usable form, so they made do with what they had.

Context is king.

BR,
Gudmund

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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Behdad,

Behdad Esfahbod skrev:

Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

Hello,

2008/10/30 F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Do, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:

Dear gnome-i18n,

I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
conventions.

How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
to GNOME.

just FWIW, the foot is or has been considered rude or even a heavy
insult (duel fodder) in a number of cultures.


There's little information in that sentence without backing it up with real
names and (hopefully) evidence.


just for starters:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot#In_culture>

Never mind my own circumstantial experiences, e. g. from seeing an 
intermezzo in a street down in Assuan (which b the looks of it would 
have ended in a fierce fight had not the offending one of them 
"skedaddled", rather quickly), or being taught not to show the sole of 
the foot in Aikido, or being told on site in Pompeii about how one could 
show someone utter contempt in ancient Rome by showing the sole of the 
feet/foot to someone and that it might still be considered insulting in 
some parts of the south of Italy etc. etc.


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Theppitak Karoonboonyanan skrev:

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Thomas Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ysgrifennodd Theppitak Karoonboonyanan:

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Gudmund Areskoug
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting them.

I'm not an artist. So, all I can do is propose ideas. As said somewhere
in the marketing-list, I like Thilo's idea of the gnome hat. Probably, we
can start with an old icon of EOG (attached). We can remove the eye
to get only the hat, or it may include a gnome's face as well.

You could cut it down to the bare essentials:
http://spectrum.myriadcolours.com/~marnanel/gnome-hat.svg

Any more and it would look like the Bass logo.


Hey, this looks cool! Thanks.


Just don't think of an ice-cream cone turned upside down... ;)


Meanwhile, with my poor artistic skill, I've mocked up what I imagined,
which is far from finalized.


Wouldn't an upstyled capital "G" be sensible, like Sharuzzaman 
suggested? Even if this might perhaps mean one upstyled "G" for every 
script, it would certainly be neutral. Unless...


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello,

2008/10/30 F Wolff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Do, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
>> Dear gnome-i18n,
>>
>> I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural
>> conventions.
>>
>> How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same
>> issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude.
>> And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new
>> to GNOME.

just FWIW, the foot is or has been considered rude or even a heavy
insult (duel fodder) in a number of cultures.

> I assume that culturally sensitive graphical design is hard, and I guess
> you are used to simply taking what you get as a Thai translator. If we
> say we are an international group, we should try to accommodate this
> difference as much as we work on text layout, GUI translation, date
> formats, etc.

Agree, but partly, like Matej says, it's in the eye of the beholder,
and partly it's a matter of resources.

I think no alternative logos will appear until people start submitting them.

> I think I know of at least one team that doesn't translate and promote
> Firefox under that brand, since the fox is considered negative in their
> culture - I guess for Mozilla there is too much in that brand to dilute
> it, but they lost that team (in as far as I know).

This is a pity and if true even a bit silly. The firefox isn't a fox,
it's a panda:


This is the animal that would turn up all across the field, before
Mozilla Firefox popularity overwhelmed all the search engines.

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Virtaal 0.2 released

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Friedel,

F Wolff skrev:
> On Ma, 2008-10-20 at 21:39 +0200, Petr Kovar wrote:
> About the catalog manager: I'd like to make sure that I understand
> exactly what it is you are looking for. In other words, what problem are
> we trying to solve (rather than just "be like babel")?

for me, it's the one look overview and access to details and project
handling.

BTW, if I could decide and this thing is cross-platform, I'd want
Virtaal usable straight from my portable hard disk along with e. g.
Portableapps, regardless of what platform I'm using for the moment.
Should™ be achievable e. g. if data could be shared between
binaries/executables.

Other than that, the approach looks promising.

Looking forward to TM and other CAT features! :)

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Aide

[Gudmund Areskoug]

FWIW, freely and non-natively (on both counts) translated into English

Claude Paroz skrev:
> Le lundi 20 octobre 2008 à 08:25 +0200, bruno a écrit :
>> Le lundi 20 octobre 2008 à 01:12 -0400, niceboy a écrit :
>>> Salut,
>>>
>>> Comment on peut aider à traduire des documents?

How can I help in translating documents?

>>> J'ai remarqué qu'il ya des fichiers .po, mais si je les modifie en
>>> local à qui dois-je les remetre?

I've noticed there are .po files, but if I edit them locally, to whom do
I submit them?

>>> Merci de m'avoir aider.

Thanks for helping me. (?)

>> Merci pour votre proposition d'aide. Quelle langue voulez vous
>> traduire ?

Thanks for your help offer. What language would you like to translate?

HTH, BR,
Gudmund

> This mailing-list is an English one.
> Cette liste de diffusion est une liste anglophone.
> 
> Please use  http://traduc.org/mailman/listinfo/gnomefr for French
> translation.
> 
> Claude
> 
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Re: Licenses of .po files, and translations

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Axel Hecht skrev:
> FWIW, in the Mozilla project, we consider translations to be derivative work.
> 
> Which is what we consider, I wouldn't know that any lawyer looked at it for 
> us.

It is/may be derivative work, but the copyright to a translation belongs
 to the translator by default.

Since it is or may be derivative, the translator mostly can't do
whatever she likes with the translation, but nobody else can do anything
with the translation unless the translator says so.

BR,
Gudmund

> Axel
> 
> 2008/9/21 Anna Jonna Armannsdottir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> On fös, 2008-09-12 at 22:26 +0530, Gora Mohanty wrote:
>>>   Thus, as I see it, for an application licensed under
>>> the GPL, the .pot files, and the .po files are also
>>> GPL-licensed.
>> Your argument seems to be that the source of those files
>> is the GPL ed source. This only holds for th pot file and
>> the untranslated .po file.
>> The work of the translators are completely independent of
>> the source.
>> Also copyright owners may change their minds and change
>> license and or terms. Thus translators that were translating
>> free software may find that their work is being used in
>> non-free software as well.
>> Because of this, I would like to explicitly specify GPL as
>> the license of the .po files I translate.
>> If other translators would like to translate the same software
>> under a different license, they are free to do that, because
>> the .pot file and the .po files are just a template to be
>> filled out with translations of sentences into a
>> particular language. Copyright would only hold for the work
>> as a whole, and as long as there is a difference in the
>> in the translation as a whole, they would have to be considered
>> as two separate works, with the similarity beign the template
>> dot po file.
>>
>> This is my personal view on this.
>>
>> --
>> Anna Jonna Ármannsdóttir coordinator
>> The Icelandic GNOME Localisation team
>> http://l10n.gnome.org/teams/is was 11% translated
>>
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Re: editing .po files

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Claude,

Claude Paroz skrev:
> Le mercredi 28 mai 2008 à 11:25 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug a écrit :
>> (Just BTW, isn't/wasn't there a Gnome page with all manner of links and
>> tips like these?)
> 
> I don't think so, but you're welcome to create one :-)

perhaps I should, so it gets done. No idea where or how to set it up,
but I guess that will sort itself out.

> ... albeit I
> don't see much interest in listing proprietary tools. I think we should
> encourage using Free Software throughout our toolchain.

Of course we should, but there's no harm in mentioning what alternatives
are actually available, is there?

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: editing .po files

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Ibrahima,

Ibraahiima SAAR skrev:
> Hello everybody,
>  Is there an online traslation plate-form or not? If not, what's the best
> programme (Windows) for editing .po files?

if you really have to work in Windows, these are the alternatives that
come to mind (other than trying to compile/get Gtranslator into working
in Windows):

Emacs or Xemacs in po mode (be prepared for a bit of a learning curve if
you're not used to Emacs) ,
;
, 

Lokalizer (will replace Kbabel) in KDE on Windows. I've tried it
briefly, *seems* to work well enough for "conscious" usage, despite both
Lokalize and the Windows port being beta stage. 

Deja Vu X from Atril (proprietary tool for professionals - powerful, but
not especially cheap and has some issues one should be aware of for po
files, like manually editing headers before import, inserting any plural
forms below each other using "return" inside each target row and
double-checking \n in the exported translations for double escapes
"\\n") 

Heartsome Translation Editor (proprietary tool, java, AFAIR converts to
XLIFF, so there may be some file conversion issues)


Swordfish (proprietary tool, java, AFAIR also converts to XLIFF, so
there may be some file conversion issues)


Another approach might be using Translate Toolkit conversion tools right
off (remaining aware of their limitations) and translating using a tool
of your choice that can handle whatever the converters can give you, e.
g. the open source Omega-T for e. g. Xliff files (it may have the same
problems as Swordfish and Heartsome if you use Xliff, due AFAIR to
conversion issues).

The Translate Toolkit: 

OmegaT: 

Here's another alternative that just came to mind:



Something you should at any rate always do after translating, is to
check that the po file format is in order with gettext (Lokalizer/Kbabel
has it neatly integrated, reachable via keyboard shortcut).

(Just BTW, isn't/wasn't there a Gnome page with all manner of links and
tips like these?)

HTH,
Gudmund
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Re: Request for resolving situation(kn_IN)

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Claude,

Claude Paroz wrote:
> Le jeudi 13 mars 2008 à 17:52 +0530, Vikram Vincent a écrit :
>> Hello,
>>
>> On 13/03/2008, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:33 +0530, Vikram Vincent wrote:
>> >
>> > Just a few weeks ago the stats for Kannada showed 16%
>> > translated(anybody can verify this) and suddenly it jumped
>> to 50%. Do
>> > you know how much work you forced us to duplicate?
>> 
>> 
>> Then there's a communication problem.  Is there a mailing list
>> for your
>> translation team?  If not, ask for one.  It wouldn't have
>> prevented
>> duplicate work if you were the coordinator either.
>>
>> Pramod and Shankar are working on localisation as individuals. The
>> swatantra.org team is working as a *team*. We use Entrans at
>> http://translate.swatantra.org as our translation application.
>> There was also some work done by others in the past and most of them
>> are not active. And we have 2 mailing lists.
>> Personally, I am not ready to throw away this method of involving
>> people in the localisation process.
> 
> (As I am about to send my mail, I see that Gudmund has sent a similar
> mail, sending anyway :-)
> 
> If I understand correctly, you would like to enforce the use of your Web
> translation tool for all kn translations. I can imagine the sort of
> problems you may face where on one side some are committing translations
> directly in SVN and on the other side other people are working on the
> same translations through the Web tool.
> The problematic is somewhat similar to the Ubuntu Launchpad vs upstream
> GNOME.
> 
> I cannot see any optimal solution to this problem.

apart from what you suggest below, the optimal thing IMO would be for
these tools to be made *inclusive*.

In the closed-source type professional CAT and translation sector,
unified on-line translation solutions are becoming à la mode at an
alarming pace (SDLX, Idiom, Across etc. etc.), for reasons that fit
exceedingly ill together with the open source spirit, namely e. g. to
unify and exert centralized control over how and what translations go
where and in what way, and to maintain control and ownership over
translations and translation memories.

This is not the object here, so the tools used for open source
translations shouldn't have to be tailored for such purposes either,
regardless of it not being the intended purpose.

Instead, they should rather do better than that, and be inclusive,
catering to the users - the translators and the community - rather than
acting like proprietary content owner tools.

This is surely possible while still coordinating translation in an
efficient manner.

> One solution could be to divide the remaining work, and announce to the
> current coordinator the particular packages on which you want to work.
> You should then only open these packages for translation in your Web
> tool. When you're done, you send the po files to the coordinator (or
> commit if you get the permissions), and then announce another set of
> packages on which you'd like to work on in your team.

Yup. A tool is there to serve us, not the other way around.

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Request for resolving situation(kn_IN)

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Vikram,

Vikram Vincent wrote:
> On 13/03/2008, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 13:08 +0100, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>>> Given Vikram's prompt reply, I
>>> don't see any of those problems with your team.
> As you mentioned, a coordinator is one who coordinates.
> I am involving educational institutions to get the localisation work done
> and coordinating with them. And Shankar works offline. So how is Pramod
> coordinating?

I an see no big problem with people working off-line, if that's their
personal preference for contributing.

The simple thing that has to be done then, is to communicate about who
does what, e. g. by popping off a mail to a mailing list saying "I'm
taking this on now. Object now, or stay happy :)"

There are AFAIK at least a small array of tools out there to help handle
such check-out/check-in/responsibility things.

What I would see a big problem with, would be forcing any contributor to
use a particular tool for performing the actual translation work.

Other teams seem to have solved the problem of handling dual input paths
like "off-line" translators and Launchpad + Rosetta, even despite some
childhood/teething problems with the Launchpad + Rosetta combination.

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Translation memories

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Kenneth,

Kenneth Nielsen wrote:
>> So everybody is OK?
>>
>> Internally a database like sqlite and in a future maybe an option for
>> mysql too and
>> with options to import/export to diferrent formats.
>>
>> As i started to say.
> 1) Will it require installing/configuring extra software

had a look at sqlite once for another purpose, AFAIR it can be bundled
in and preconfed to at least some extent, making things look nicely
seamless. But my memory may well be playing tricks on me.

> 2) Is it fast enough

It should be, not least because it's deliberately kept simple, but that
is also a limitation to be considered - preferably in advance.

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Translation memories

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello Nacho,

Nacho wrote:
> What about use a database like sqlite and add options to save/import in/from
> other formats?

this is IMHO the way to go.

A "proper" DB engine should offer certain advantages over handling plain
text based things like TMX.

TMX, as the name says, is a format made for Translation Memory eXchange.

TMX support is important, since it's open, free, and an industry
standard, supported by lots of different software, free as well as
closed source, specialized localization tools as well as general CATs.

Supporting import and export of TMX would make all manner of cooperation
and freedom of choice easier. For one, it would make switching *to*
Kbabel/Kaider/Lokalizer easier.

XLIFF is another such open format, intended for sharing/exchanging
translation files (the work proper, not the memory resources). AFAIK,
XLIFF was never meant as a translation memory file format.

Support for XLIFF would still be a very nice thing. :)

BR,
Gudmund

> On Jan 26, 2008 10:04 PM, Nacho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On Jan 26, 2008 9:44 PM, Leonardo Fontenelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> IIRC TMX is the translation memory format for XLIFF-based tools, and
>>> KBabel uses TMX. No database, thanks!
>> I think tmx is too slow. Maybe i can do plugins for this.
>> For example if all of you want TMX i can do a plugin for TMX support.
>> If another one wants another kind of translation memory, i can do another
>> plugin.
>> But i have to priorize in the first plugin.
>>
>>>
>>> Leonardo Fontenelle
>>> http://leonardof.org
>>>
>>> 2008/1/26, Nacho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
 Hi,

   I was thinking and i need some advise here:
 Do you want translation memories in tmx format, xliff, other xml
>>> format?
 Do you prefer it as a database (maybe sqlite or mysql)?
 Both?
 How do you want the interface to manage the translation memories?

 Regards.

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>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: What about integration with damned lies?

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello,

Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle wrote:
> Em Dom, 2008-01-06 às 18:45 +0100, Nacho escreveu:
>> I think is better a plugin.  Because maybe someone wants to make a
>> plugin for kde DL equivalent.
> 
> If both options are equally feasible, a plugin would be better, but if
> it's easier to make it part of the catalog manager, then IMHO we should
> do it. AFAIK KDE translators are happy with Kbabel, so I don't think
> they would miss gtranslator integration with their SVN. (Catalogs are
> msgmerged in the very SVN by a bot, so there's no DL equivalent.)

aren't there at least a few translators who translate all manner of
things, be it Gnome, KDE, Ubuntu or TP stuff? If there are many who do
that, they'd probably be happy to be remembered.

BR,
Gudmund
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Survey on usage patterns of CATs and open source software

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hello,

I'm passing on this IMO very interesting message that turned up on the
Linuxfortranslators list.

I believe there are quite a few people on this list who are well suited
to make a valuable contribution to the survey and the project behind it.

This is not least since I think the "traditional" and commercial
translation world has a lot to learn from open source translation
processes, including all that implies.

It's a chance to make your voice as a translator heard, and for those
who want to, a chance to participate in and/or contribute to open source
tools for translators.

I've already done the survey, and I can recommend it.

The more translators (and possibly translator-developers) that
contribute, the better the results :)

And since we're talking open source, the benefits would be mutual.

BR,
Gudmund

The message:
---
Hello together,

the Linux Solutions Group e.V. (LiSoG) is supporting the initiative
Forum Open Language Tools (FOLT) initiating a Translation Open Source
Systems (TMOSS) [1]. FOLT has published an excerpt on this topic [2]
(currently only in german. English version is in progress). LiSoG is
doing an online survey to find out the pattern of use for translation
memory software and the acceptance for using open source software in
general. The survey is available in German [3] and English [4].

Please step by and check out the survey. It is quite an interessting
project and the FOLT guys are really up to pushing the development of an
Open Source translation memory system. Just give them input about your
needs.

[1] -
http://www.lisog.org/projekte/supported_projects/folt/pm_folt_071017
[2] -
http://www.forum-open-language-tools.de/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=15&Itemid=39
[3] - https://survey.lisog.org/survey_folt/de
[4] - https://survey.lisog.org/survey_folt/en

-- Sincerely Nico Gulden -- Technical Lead Linux Solutions Group e.V. -
LiSoG Fon: +49 711/90715-393 || Fax: +49 711/90715-350 E-Mail:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] || Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1024D/5F028B90 9324 E7F8
8D5C 42B1 892A 254A 4F50 35CF 5F02 8B90 http://www.lisog.org
Breitscheidstr. 4, 70174 Stuttgart, Germany Branch offices: Stuttgart -
Zürich - Vienna







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Re: gtk+ based translation tool

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Pedro de Medeiros wrote:
> On 8/20/07, Raphael Higino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 8/19/07, Pedro de Medeiros <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Probably. Poedit scans for installed translations in /usr subdirectories
>>> to create its internal database, but it could be fed from somewhere
>>> else. For instance, there are, at least in Portuguese, a glossary that
>>> serves as guides for translations of free software. It should be useful to
>>> populate the application's glossary. How that TranslationManager you
>>> use gathers data for its glossary?
>> I don't know how it works on Linux, but on Windows I have to point a
>> directory where poEdit will find po files to make its TM database
>> from.
>>
>> But getting translations from mo files seems to me something really
>> clever. I'd just suggest that the TM database be stored in plain text
>> files, so they can be more easily edited, if needed.
> 
> Raphael, TM databases in plain text are slow. That's why poedit
> converts them to Berkeley DB. Besides, editing the TM database is
> one of the things that the translation tool should do anyway.
> 
> Gzip plain text TM could be shared between translators, though.
> But an export feature should suffice.

In my experience, an export feature would need an equal import
counterpart, including ways of keeping track who said/did what. But
that's probably been thought of already :).

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: About requesting help

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi Fernando,

Fernando Apesteguía wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I would like to know if this is a good place for asking some help with
> my small software project. I'm talking about finding translators.
> 
> Is this the place?

as you've noticed from the responses you already got, and since you
chose the Gnome i18n list, it might be the right place for you.

If you don't feel like making your software a Gnome thing, or don't feel
it fits into it for whatever reason, there's the Translation Project too:

http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/translation/

No competition to Gnome AFAIK, just yet another good channel :)

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Introducing open-tran.eu

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi,

Simos Xenitellis wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 20:58 +0200, Jacek Śliwerski wrote:
>> I know that Simos have already forwarded my email to this mailing list, 
>> but I would like to "officially" introduce you my project:
>>  http://open-tran.eu
>>
>> I claim it to be the world's largest software-related dictionary.  And 
>> since it is based on translations of Gnome, KDE and Mozilla, I thought 
>> that you might be interested in it.
>>
>> I'd like to thank you for your contributions to the Gnome project.  Your 
>> work is an important part of Open-Tran.
>>
>> I will be more than glad to know what you think about the project.
> 
> Thanks Jacek!
> 
> I would like to ask how you choose which GNOME .po files to use.
> At http://open-tran.eu/db.html it mentions that "trunk" is being used.
> Do you use the collection of packages that belong to the GNOME 2.18
> release?
> 
> I would think that using the GNOME 2.18 release PO files would be a good
> option, as they are tested more. Otherwise the quality of the results
> will be reduced.

probably a thing for a future version of OpenTran, but wouldn't
displaying which version an entry belongs to/stems from be a good idea?

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: Translating Powerfolder !

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Yavor Doganov wrote:
> Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>> So besides for Debian and non-Java, the world of free computing does  
>> not exist ?
> 
> The world of free computing is based entirely on free software, no
> matter the programming language or the GNU/Linux distribution.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Java itself -- there is GCJ/GNU Classpath
> and a few free virtual machines.  A program may be completely free
> only when its dependencies are free as well.  I even participate in a
> free Java project (as a doc writer, though) -- but the priority No.1
> of the developers of that project is the program to run with GNU
> Java.  We don't even test it with Sun's Java as naturally, we don't
> have unethical software installed.

It looks like this thing might become settled pretty soon, no matter
where one chooses to draw ideological or practical lines:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/applications/0,39020384,39284272,00.htm

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: a comic reliefe

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Yair Hershkovitz wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This is a bit strange, can there be a user name with 0 characters?
> 
> msgid "To be valid, the user name should have less than %d character"
> msgid_plural "To be valid, the user name should have less than %d
> characters"

...and if it turns out negative, it should be written in the opposite
direction to the surrounding language :)

//Gudmund
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Re: Fonts for distribution

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi,

Danilo Šegan wrote:
> Hi Clytie,
> Today at 5:29, Clytie Siddall wrote:
>> I have specialist fonts for Vietnamese, and for some other languages,
>> but I only use them when I'm preparing documents for print. Ludida
>> Grande does an excellent job of my language, and of many others. So I
>> wanted the same convenience for users of our distributions,
>> especially those who may not know how to install or setup specialist
>> fonts.
> 
> The thing is that fontconfig, that underlies our font selection
> system, is way more advanced.
> 
> You wouldn't have to "select" any font: if your current font is unable
> to display Vietnamese, fontconfig will select the first one that can.
> If you have a font-per-script, you can set the best font for any
> script, thus you would be getting better results without any more work!
> 
> Of course, it gives suboptimal results if fonts contain parts of a 
> script, but not the full script, so you get a mess of characters from
> different fonts.

thinking:
- What happens if there's no single font that fits, when language X
turns up?
- If the fonts are free and not platform specific, might they not be
made to cater for other (even inferior) platforms too?

I've seen rather a lot of messages in other fora lately from or about
people not being able to read this, see that, "I only see " - and
the occasional "...it shows fine in MSOE/MSIE/MSWord etc., why can't
these open source guys just make it work too?" and worse. Once in a
while there's the "how did you write that character? - I can see it but
not write it!".

So my take on the font issue is that there should exist at least one
catch-all font that can be used on any platform, and where possible be
used only when truly fit, or as a last resort.

Other than that, I agree with Behdad.

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: String review

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi,

resending this.

Danilo Šegan wrote:

Today at 21:08, Vincent Untz wrote:


The difficult part is, however, to make maintainers use this database
when they add new strings. I don't know how we could do this.


I think it would be simple to make them use it provided we have a good
"similarity" matching algorithm. 


Also, this will only make sense doing if we provide such a mechanism
in the first place (or is anyone interested in hand-selecting all the
cases? :).


perhaps something along the lines of building blocks/autotext entries? I
guess there might be open source algorithms to borrow from there.

But all such schemes would require either string authors using some
certain tool, or some certain database, or that some kind of string
(similitude) review can be run on all strings before releasing them for
translation.

Regardless how well such guidelines are adhered to, translators *will
remain* a crucial part in catching such inconsistencies, as long as
string generation doesn't somehow get completely formalized (using a
controlled corpora).

In my translating experience, hardly even controlled corpora can stop
everything, since there's still someone who's got to control the
corpora... (I have translated a lot of stuff made that way and found
disturbing inconsistencies).

A good tool for catching these things, would be a reverse consistency
checker, that checks terminology/string consistency as viewed *from* the
translated (target) language.

That way, e. g. a string or term that turns up as duplicate in the
target language, but has two different sources is most likely a
terminological inconsistency, either in the translation (collision) or
in the source language (like some of Christians examples).

The strings that get translated pass through the semantic-logical filter
that is the translators brain, and surprisingly often, what is the
essence of the strings more or less always comes out in a uniform way in
the target language.

With such a tool, that fact can be put to good use, even upstream.

BR,
Gudmund

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Re: String review

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi,

Danilo Šegan wrote:

Today at 21:08, Vincent Untz wrote:


The difficult part is, however, to make maintainers use this database
when they add new strings. I don't know how we could do this.


I think it would be simple to make them use it provided we have a good
"similarity" matching algorithm. 


Also, this will only make sense doing if we provide such a mechanism
in the first place (or is anyone interested in hand-selecting all the
cases? :).


perhaps something along the lines of building blocks/autotext entries? I 
guess there might be open source algorithms to borrow from there.


But all such schemes would require either string authors using some 
certain tool, or some certain database, or that some kind of string 
(similitude) review can be run on all strings before releasing them for 
translation.


Regardless how well such guidelines are adhered to, translators *will 
remain* a crucial part in catching such inconsistencies, as long as 
string generation doesn't somehow get completely formalized (using a 
controlled corpora).


In my translating experience, hardly even controlled corpora can stop 
everything, since there's still someone who's got to control the 
corpora... (I have translated a lot of stuff made that way and found 
disturbing inconsistencies).


A good tool for catching these things, would be a reverse consistency 
checker, that checks terminology/string consistency as viewed *from* the 
translated (target) language.


That way, e. g. a string or term that turns up as duplicate in the 
target language, but has two different sources is most likely a 
terminological inconsistency, either in the translation (collision) or 
in the source language (like some of Christians examples).


The strings that get translated pass through the semantic-logical filter 
that is the translators brain, and surprisingly often, what is the 
essence of the strings more or less always comes out in a uniform way in 
the target language.


With such a tool, that fact can be put to good use, even upstream.

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi Roozbeh,

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 17:07 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:


Got any better ideas for graphics/icon?


Yes, flags are better. They are less controversial than maps :)


back to square one, then... A hard nut to crack.

I guess only personal settings can solve what flag (or any kind of icon) 
each person wants to use, then, in case any flag at all exists for the 
language.


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi again,

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 16:01 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

I know, that's why I indicated "region", not "country". No matter what 
one thinks of e. g. Greater Kurdistan, it's hard to dispute there's 
currently a substantial group of people living and speaking Kurdish in a 
given geographic location.


It's hard, but they still dispute it. Believe me, *some* maps of Greater
Kurdistan that is supposed to where current Kurdish speakers live,
include Azerbaijani-speaking areas, Lori-speaking areas, Persian-
speaking areas, and Arabic-speaking areas. I don't know enough about the
politics of Kurdish in Iraq and Turkey. That is only from my knowledge
of Iran.


I see no problem with language areas overlapping each other. I don't 
have to go far in my city to reach an area where probably at least 70 
languages are "regularly spoken"...



In other words, yes, contrary to what you think, it is very very
controversial to claim that a substantial group of people speaking in a
certain region speak Kurdish.


OK, even if it isn't a substantial group, it might still be an area 
where noone would normally be surprised to find people speaking that 
language, right?


If you take Ingrian (not sure if that's what it's callled in English), I 
don't think there are more than perhaps 200 people speaking it in the 
world today, but there's still a region where one wouldn't (or 
shouldn't) be surprised to find people speaking it.



Danilo, would you please come to my aid? I guess you have a similar
problem in the areas that made the former Yugoslavia.


I understand your objections, I'm just trying to find a solution.

If you feel that showing on a map where in the world one might expect to 
find people speaking a certain language is too controversial to use, 
then perhaps the idea is for the scrap-heap.


Got any better ideas for graphics/icon?

The easy way is already there, just give the ISO code, or the language 
name - but that's all just text, not graphics.


Other than that, a sound "popup-tag", that plays an audio saying the 
name of the language might be cool (please no discussion what sex, age 
or dialect the person saying it should have or not! ;) ) .


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi Roozbeh,

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 14:58 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
traditionally spoken, with the language name in its own script(s)?


Region maps are also controversial, specially when the language has no
nation behind it. Kurdish is most famous example. You can't draw a non-
controversial map of Greater Kurdistan with going head to head with
Arabs, Turks, Azerbaijanis, and Persians.


I know, that's why I indicated "region", not "country". No matter what 
one thinks of e. g. Greater Kurdistan, it's hard to dispute there's 
currently a substantial group of people living and speaking Kurdish in a 
given geographic location.


As I said in my reply to Tor, perhaps make "is traditionally spoken" "is 
still traditionally spoken" or "is currently regularly spoken", or even 
"is currently expected to be spoken".


If we mix history into it, we'll have a true quagmire...


You can't simply add all the countries that have native speakers either.
Country maps are also very controversial (Taiwan, Nagorno-Karabakh,
Kashmir, Transnistria, South Ossetia, etc. come to mind).

(BTW, the number of speakers is also a very controversial issue, but
that is in GNOME release notes anyway. Not that I have not objected a
few times.)

IMHO, managing to communicate might perhaps be more important than 
managing not to step on *anybody*'s toes.


Well, we should see how important those anybodys are. If we don't want
to alienate them, we shouldn't.


Perhaps the "anybodys" should be challenged to come up with a better 
idea for communicating a language denotation graphically?


Perhaps sensitive groups could have a "hide offense" feature coupled to 
their own locale setting? ;)


Or make linking an icon - any icon the actual user wants - optional?

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hej Tor,

Tor Lillqvist wrote:

On ti, 2005-09-13 at 14:58 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
traditionally spoken, 


Nah, doesn't work. Where does one draw the line what's "traditional" and
what's "non-traditional"? This opens up a whole new dimension of cans of
worms than using a flag does, by referring to not only current flags,
but also history.


OK, make "is traditionally spoken" "is still traditionally spoken" or 
"is currently regularly spoken", or even "is currently expected to be 
spoken", then. I added "traditionally" because of e. g. groups of people 
speaking a language that are scattered across the globe.



For instance, as a "finlandssvensk" (the Swedish-specaking minority in
Finland) I certainly would find it as silly (if not offensive) to have
to click a map of Sweden as it would be to have to click the Swedish
flag. (Not because there would be anything wrong with Sweden, but
because that would feel like accepting the misconception that
Swedish-speaking Finns are closely related to Sweden.)


IMHO, such a map would of course include not only territory inside 
Sweden, but also e. g. Åland and parts of Finland large enough to be 
visible in the graphic/icon. Etc. Finnish would BTW probably include a 
part of Sweden too, then.


For Sami (bad example, since there are many varieties), the region would 
span across Norway, Sweden, Finland, don't know about Russia, but I 
guess there's a Sami region there too.



with the language name in its own script(s)?


This is simple and effective. So what if those who don't understand the
language or read the script don't understand what language it is? The
main thing is that people immediately recognize their *own* language.


Yup. Communication that works. But I guess both that and a map *might* 
not fill Luis purpose of being, well, graphic and quick enough.


Perhaps there is no good universal graphical/icon solution?

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi,

Luis Villa wrote:

If I wanted to put little icons next to the languages here:

http://torrent.gnome.org/

Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate? Anything I should be aware
of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
language visually?


just an idea, probably not ideal, but hopefully spawning new and better 
ideas:


How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
traditionally spoken, with the language name in its own script(s)?


Unfit for small icons, but perhaps useful in other circumstances?

IMHO, managing to communicate might perhaps be more important than 
managing not to step on *anybody*'s toes.


Some people think the earth is flat, some are colour blind, etc., so 
someone or some groups will always be more or less offended - sometimes 
even by *not* showing a flag.


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: From every continent (release notes)

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Francisco Javier F. Serrador wrote:

5 continents, including antartica sounds cool, very cool
:D


Just wondering, after looking at the map: what continent does Atlantis 
belong to (Lost City of Atlantis)? :-D


BR,
Gudmund


El dom, 04-09-2005 a las 17:30 +0200, Danilo Šegan escribió:


Today at 16:50, Francisco Javier F. Serrador wrote:



According to this
http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/random/GnomeWorldWideHuge.jpg

nat and miguel


I somehow doubt that ;)

FWIW, it should probably be "every continent permanently inhabited by
humans" :) 


But just for fun, we should make our readers research it for us :)

Cheers,
Danilo
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Re: translations of the press release

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi guys,
Glynn Foster wrote:
Hey,
Hrm, in which case, why are we using Star Office if we don't need the
layout? Seems like it creates an extra layer of hassle having to
translate the content
It's a way to get the plain text to the press, but the press don't
actually take it as plain text. I don't know for sure, but the last clue
from Leslie suggested that they take it as .doc.
Why? What's the rationale for needing the markup? What benefit does it
give to the original text? I'd be very strongly against sending any
press release we do as .doc - there's really no need.
I more or less regularly work together with a press relations agency to 
help them translate press releases.

Press releases are for getting your message, whatever it may be, across 
to the public via "the press" (any media). That means you have to 
provide the material in whatever format "the press" *feel* comfortable with.

Competition for getting seen is fierce, so we'd better make it easy for 
the press to get and handle the story.

So I'd say provide the press release in many various formats, be it 
.sxw, .html (an ordinary web page), .pdf, .rtf, .doc or .txt, generated 
from one template.

Then, one can always still make an open source point by presenting an 
open source format as the standard, and then point to the "other" 
formats, saying "also available as...".

BR,
Gudmund
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