Re: icons for languages

[Christopher Fynn]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:


On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 17:07 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:


Got any better ideas for graphics/icon?


Yes, flags are better. They are less controversial than maps  



I agree, while not wholly uncontroversial flags are mere symbols - while 
maps may imply the possession of - or a claim to - territory. Wars get 
started over that kind of thing.


Least controversial of all is to use the language name or ISO 639 
Language code. This also avoids the problem of which flag to use for 
languages spoken in several countries.


- Chris


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Re: icons for languages

[Clytie Siddall]

On 14/09/2005, at 7:27 PM, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:


back to square one, then... A hard nut to crack.

I guess only personal settings can solve what flag (or any kind of  
icon) each person wants to use, then, in case any flag at all  
exists for the language.


I would still strongly advise using the name of the language. This  
is, after all, how we identify the translations and even the language  
teams.


Certainly for Vietnamese, the name of the language (tiếng Việt or  
Việt ngữ) is a safe choice, where the flag of the current  
government of Vietnam is unfortunately not.


Using the language names is quite common by now, seen on many sites.  
You click on the language name to access a page in that language, to  
see information relevant to people speaking that language. I have  
translated for several OSS sites which use the name of the language.


There would not be a problem for us in using the language name: it  
would be the best choice.


from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nhóm  
Việt hóa phần mềm tự do)

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN


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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi Roozbeh,

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 17:07 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:


Got any better ideas for graphics/icon?


Yes, flags are better. They are less controversial than maps :)


back to square one, then... A hard nut to crack.

I guess only personal settings can solve what flag (or any kind of icon) 
each person wants to use, then, in case any flag at all exists for the 
language.


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 17:07 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> Got any better ideas for graphics/icon?

Yes, flags are better. They are less controversial than maps :)

Roozbeh


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Re: icons for languages

[Арангел Ангов]

Kostas Papadimas wrote:


Please don't start a nationalist
flame war in GTP...


Okay, sure, let's not.

Cheers,
Arangel


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Re: icons for languages

[Kostas Papadimas]

Στις 13-09-2005, ημέρα Τρι, και ώρα 18:01 +0200, ο/η Арангел Ангов
έγραψε:

> And yeah, the name is Republic of Macedonia.

You can call your country whatever name you like (Republic of Utopia,
Atlantis, Cornocupia, Macedonia, etc). Please don't start a nationalist
flame war in GTP...

Greetings
Kostas

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Re: icons for languages

[Lucas Vieites]

El mar, 13-09-2005 a las 13:03 -0400, David Lodge escribió:
> Quoting Lucas Vieites <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >  In this case I would just use the name of the language in that
> > language, eg: Dutch - Nederlands, German - Deutsch, Spanish - Español,
> > etc.
> >  Just a personal opinion, though.
> 
> This does seem to be the easiest and least controversial mechanism. The only
> problem comes from the implied flavour of the language: I know several English
> (i.e. nationality) people who get severly wound up when English (i.e. the
> language) is used to describe American English.
> 
> I think that you are always going to offend somebody no matter what you do.
> 
  Same thing with spanish, in Spain there are at least 5 flavours of
spanish (not counting the co-official languages), plus all the american
ones. We, at least, can say: There's an official "Royal Academy of the
Spanish Language" (www.rae.es). I don't know if there's an equivalent
for the English language.


> dave
> 
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Re: icons for languages

[David Lodge]

Quoting Lucas Vieites <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

 In this case I would just use the name of the language in that
language, eg: Dutch - Nederlands, German - Deutsch, Spanish - Español,
etc.
 Just a personal opinion, though.


This does seem to be the easiest and least controversial mechanism. The only
problem comes from the implied flavour of the language: I know several English
(i.e. nationality) people who get severly wound up when English (i.e. the
language) is used to describe American English.

I think that you are always going to offend somebody no matter what you do.

dave

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Re: icons for languages

[Арангел Ангов]

Simos Xenitellis wrote:

I suppose you refer to FYROM which oftentimes causes issues with 
Greece due to claims for affinity with ancient macedonia, either in 
terms of language or in terms of history.



No issue here. Greek is greek and macedonian is macedonian. You can't 
possibly compare this to the Azarbeijani example.


And yeah, the name is Republic of Macedonia.

Cheers,
Arangel

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Re: icons for languages

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 16:35 +0100, Simos Xenitellis wrote:
> >Danilo, would you please come to my aid? I guess you have a similar
> >problem in the areas that made the former Yugoslavia.
>
> I suppose you refer to FYROM which oftentimes causes issues with Greece 
> due to claims for affinity with ancient macedonia, either in terms of 
> language or in terms of history.

Not FYROM, but the issue of which Yugoslavian languages are spoken
where. This is specially problematic since the three languages Bosnian,
Croatian, and Serbian are very similar.

roozbeh


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Re: icons for languages

[Simos Xenitellis]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:


On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 16:01 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
 

I know, that's why I indicated "region", not "country". No matter what 
one thinks of e. g. Greater Kurdistan, it's hard to dispute there's 
currently a substantial group of people living and speaking Kurdish in a 
given geographic location.
   



It's hard, but they still dispute it. Believe me, *some* maps of Greater
Kurdistan that is supposed to where current Kurdish speakers live,
include Azerbaijani-speaking areas, Lori-speaking areas, Persian-
speaking areas, and Arabic-speaking areas. I don't know enough about the
politics of Kurdish in Iraq and Turkey. That is only from my knowledge
of Iran.

In other words, yes, contrary to what you think, it is very very
controversial to claim that a substantial group of people speaking in a
certain region speak Kurdish.

Danilo, would you please come to my aid? I guess you have a similar
problem in the areas that made the former Yugoslavia.
 

I suppose you refer to FYROM which oftentimes causes issues with Greece 
due to claims for affinity with ancient macedonia, either in terms of 
language or in terms of history.


Indeed, it's a difficult problem to solve yourself. For one reason or 
another, it's common to delegate the task to international standards, 
and follow them to the letter. It would still cause grievances, though 
you can direct now to ISO.


Simos
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi again,

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 16:01 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

I know, that's why I indicated "region", not "country". No matter what 
one thinks of e. g. Greater Kurdistan, it's hard to dispute there's 
currently a substantial group of people living and speaking Kurdish in a 
given geographic location.


It's hard, but they still dispute it. Believe me, *some* maps of Greater
Kurdistan that is supposed to where current Kurdish speakers live,
include Azerbaijani-speaking areas, Lori-speaking areas, Persian-
speaking areas, and Arabic-speaking areas. I don't know enough about the
politics of Kurdish in Iraq and Turkey. That is only from my knowledge
of Iran.


I see no problem with language areas overlapping each other. I don't 
have to go far in my city to reach an area where probably at least 70 
languages are "regularly spoken"...



In other words, yes, contrary to what you think, it is very very
controversial to claim that a substantial group of people speaking in a
certain region speak Kurdish.


OK, even if it isn't a substantial group, it might still be an area 
where noone would normally be surprised to find people speaking that 
language, right?


If you take Ingrian (not sure if that's what it's callled in English), I 
don't think there are more than perhaps 200 people speaking it in the 
world today, but there's still a region where one wouldn't (or 
shouldn't) be surprised to find people speaking it.



Danilo, would you please come to my aid? I guess you have a similar
problem in the areas that made the former Yugoslavia.


I understand your objections, I'm just trying to find a solution.

If you feel that showing on a map where in the world one might expect to 
find people speaking a certain language is too controversial to use, 
then perhaps the idea is for the scrap-heap.


Got any better ideas for graphics/icon?

The easy way is already there, just give the ISO code, or the language 
name - but that's all just text, not graphics.


Other than that, a sound "popup-tag", that plays an audio saying the 
name of the language might be cool (please no discussion what sex, age 
or dialect the person saying it should have or not! ;) ) .


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 16:01 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> I know, that's why I indicated "region", not "country". No matter what 
> one thinks of e. g. Greater Kurdistan, it's hard to dispute there's 
> currently a substantial group of people living and speaking Kurdish in a 
> given geographic location.

It's hard, but they still dispute it. Believe me, *some* maps of Greater
Kurdistan that is supposed to where current Kurdish speakers live,
include Azerbaijani-speaking areas, Lori-speaking areas, Persian-
speaking areas, and Arabic-speaking areas. I don't know enough about the
politics of Kurdish in Iraq and Turkey. That is only from my knowledge
of Iran.

In other words, yes, contrary to what you think, it is very very
controversial to claim that a substantial group of people speaking in a
certain region speak Kurdish.

Danilo, would you please come to my aid? I guess you have a similar
problem in the areas that made the former Yugoslavia.

Roozbeh


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Re: icons for languages

[Lucas Vieites]

El mar, 13-09-2005 a las 08:28 -0400, Luis Villa escribió:
> On 9/13/05, Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Are there any other decent ways to do signify language visually?
> > 
> > The name of the language in its own language (and script) may be the
> > best thing to do. But even that may be controversial sometimes. For
> > example, the Azerbaijani speakers in Iran are divided into what their
> > language should be called in Azerbaijani. Some insist on (a translation
> > equivalent to) Turkish, others on Azerbaijani, others on Azerbaijani
> > Turkish, and a few on Azeri.
> 
> How often is this a problem? i.e., if I wanted to do that for any of
> the (currently) 14 languages here:
> 
> http://torrent.gnome.org/
> 
> would that be a problem? [The current solution, 'just use english',
> seems really suboptimal.]
> 

  In this case I would just use the name of the language in that
language, eg: Dutch - Nederlands, German - Deutsch, Spanish - Español,
etc.
  Just a personal opinion, though.


> > Sorry Luis, this is not an easy question to answer at all.
> 
> understood.
> 
> Luis
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi Roozbeh,

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 14:58 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
traditionally spoken, with the language name in its own script(s)?


Region maps are also controversial, specially when the language has no
nation behind it. Kurdish is most famous example. You can't draw a non-
controversial map of Greater Kurdistan with going head to head with
Arabs, Turks, Azerbaijanis, and Persians.


I know, that's why I indicated "region", not "country". No matter what 
one thinks of e. g. Greater Kurdistan, it's hard to dispute there's 
currently a substantial group of people living and speaking Kurdish in a 
given geographic location.


As I said in my reply to Tor, perhaps make "is traditionally spoken" "is 
still traditionally spoken" or "is currently regularly spoken", or even 
"is currently expected to be spoken".


If we mix history into it, we'll have a true quagmire...


You can't simply add all the countries that have native speakers either.
Country maps are also very controversial (Taiwan, Nagorno-Karabakh,
Kashmir, Transnistria, South Ossetia, etc. come to mind).

(BTW, the number of speakers is also a very controversial issue, but
that is in GNOME release notes anyway. Not that I have not objected a
few times.)

IMHO, managing to communicate might perhaps be more important than 
managing not to step on *anybody*'s toes.


Well, we should see how important those anybodys are. If we don't want
to alienate them, we shouldn't.


Perhaps the "anybodys" should be challenged to come up with a better 
idea for communicating a language denotation graphically?


Perhaps sensitive groups could have a "hide offense" feature coupled to 
their own locale setting? ;)


Or make linking an icon - any icon the actual user wants - optional?

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hej Tor,

Tor Lillqvist wrote:

On ti, 2005-09-13 at 14:58 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
traditionally spoken, 


Nah, doesn't work. Where does one draw the line what's "traditional" and
what's "non-traditional"? This opens up a whole new dimension of cans of
worms than using a flag does, by referring to not only current flags,
but also history.


OK, make "is traditionally spoken" "is still traditionally spoken" or 
"is currently regularly spoken", or even "is currently expected to be 
spoken", then. I added "traditionally" because of e. g. groups of people 
speaking a language that are scattered across the globe.



For instance, as a "finlandssvensk" (the Swedish-specaking minority in
Finland) I certainly would find it as silly (if not offensive) to have
to click a map of Sweden as it would be to have to click the Swedish
flag. (Not because there would be anything wrong with Sweden, but
because that would feel like accepting the misconception that
Swedish-speaking Finns are closely related to Sweden.)


IMHO, such a map would of course include not only territory inside 
Sweden, but also e. g. Åland and parts of Finland large enough to be 
visible in the graphic/icon. Etc. Finnish would BTW probably include a 
part of Sweden too, then.


For Sami (bad example, since there are many varieties), the region would 
span across Norway, Sweden, Finland, don't know about Russia, but I 
guess there's a Sami region there too.



with the language name in its own script(s)?


This is simple and effective. So what if those who don't understand the
language or read the script don't understand what language it is? The
main thing is that people immediately recognize their *own* language.


Yup. Communication that works. But I guess both that and a map *might* 
not fill Luis purpose of being, well, graphic and quick enough.


Perhaps there is no good universal graphical/icon solution?

BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 14:58 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:
> How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
> traditionally spoken, with the language name in its own script(s)?

Region maps are also controversial, specially when the language has no
nation behind it. Kurdish is most famous example. You can't draw a non-
controversial map of Greater Kurdistan with going head to head with
Arabs, Turks, Azerbaijanis, and Persians.

You can't simply add all the countries that have native speakers either.
Country maps are also very controversial (Taiwan, Nagorno-Karabakh,
Kashmir, Transnistria, South Ossetia, etc. come to mind).

(BTW, the number of speakers is also a very controversial issue, but
that is in GNOME release notes anyway. Not that I have not objected a
few times.)

> IMHO, managing to communicate might perhaps be more important than 
> managing not to step on *anybody*'s toes.

Well, we should see how important those anybodys are. If we don't want
to alienate them, we shouldn't.

roozbeh


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Re: icons for languages

[Tor Lillqvist]

On ti, 2005-09-13 at 14:58 +0200, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

> How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
> traditionally spoken, 

Nah, doesn't work. Where does one draw the line what's "traditional" and
what's "non-traditional"? This opens up a whole new dimension of cans of
worms than using a flag does, by referring to not only current flags,
but also history.

For instance, as a "finlandssvensk" (the Swedish-specaking minority in
Finland) I certainly would find it as silly (if not offensive) to have
to click a map of Sweden as it would be to have to click the Swedish
flag. (Not because there would be anything wrong with Sweden, but
because that would feel like accepting the misconception that
Swedish-speaking Finns are closely related to Sweden.)

> with the language name in its own script(s)?

This is simple and effective. So what if those who don't understand the
language or read the script don't understand what language it is? The
main thing is that people immediately recognize their *own* language.

--tml

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Re: icons for languages

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 08:28 -0400, Luis Villa wrote:
> How often is this a problem? i.e., if I wanted to do that for any of
> the (currently) 14 languages here:
> 
> http://torrent.gnome.org/
> 
> would that be a problem? [The current solution, 'just use english',
> seems really suboptimal.]

I don't know of any. There is a chance that some Greek people may not
like "Macedonian" to refer to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,
but I really don't know. They may not be able to read the Cyrillic (and
they would object to Macedonian being written in English anyway).

Anybody else? The list is:

Chinese (Simplified)
Dutch
English
French
German
Greek
Indonesian
Italian
Japanese
Macedonian
Portuguese
Spanish
Turkish
Vietnamese

roozbeh


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Re: icons for languages

[Luis Villa]

On 9/13/05, Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



> Are there any other decent ways to do signify language visually?
> 
> The name of the language in its own language (and script) may be the
> best thing to do. But even that may be controversial sometimes. For
> example, the Azerbaijani speakers in Iran are divided into what their
> language should be called in Azerbaijani. Some insist on (a translation
> equivalent to) Turkish, others on Azerbaijani, others on Azerbaijani
> Turkish, and a few on Azeri.

How often is this a problem? i.e., if I wanted to do that for any of
the (currently) 14 languages here:

http://torrent.gnome.org/

would that be a problem? [The current solution, 'just use english',
seems really suboptimal.]

> Sorry Luis, this is not an easy question to answer at all.

understood.

Luis
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Re: icons for languages

[Gudmund Areskoug]

Hi,

Luis Villa wrote:

If I wanted to put little icons next to the languages here:

http://torrent.gnome.org/

Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate? Anything I should be aware
of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
language visually?


just an idea, probably not ideal, but hopefully spawning new and better 
ideas:


How about a tiny map, indicating the region where that language is 
traditionally spoken, with the language name in its own script(s)?


Unfit for small icons, but perhaps useful in other circumstances?

IMHO, managing to communicate might perhaps be more important than 
managing not to step on *anybody*'s toes.


Some people think the earth is flat, some are colour blind, etc., so 
someone or some groups will always be more or less offended - sometimes 
even by *not* showing a flag.


BR,
Gudmund
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Re: icons for languages

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 13:28 -0400, Luis Villa wrote:
> Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate?

No. Flags are not even appropriate to represent countries (more properly
called "territories"). Some flags are even considered offensive to some
users. Random examples: Taiwan's flag may be offensive to some people
from the Democratic Republic of China. Israel's flag may be offensive to
some Muslims or Arabs [1]. The new flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran
may be offensive to some monarchist Iranians (mostly living outside
Iran).

Apart from that, flags may not even distinguish territories. There are
certain different territories that use the same flag.

[1] Even Israel's name may be offensive to some people [2]. In software,
that has different solutions. A Microsoft employee once told me that
they know of two solutions. In early releases of their Arabic version of
their software, they simply blanked the translation of "Israel", so it
would appear as an empty field next to other countries in a drop-down
list. But that wasn't a very good solution, specially since Arabic is
also an official language of Israel. They then found that usually
Arabs/Muslims do not take the offense very seriously if "Palestine" is
also in any list that "Israel" is.

[2] In Iran, the newspapers and the officials usually call Israel "the
Zionist regime", and Jerusalem "Beyt-ol-Moghaddas" (they even transcribe
it that way to English). Also, they sometimes refer to Israel's
president not as "ra'is-e jomhour" (literally "head of republic") which
they use for every other republic, but simply as "rai's" ("head").

> Anything I should be aware
> of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
> language visually?

The name of the language in its own language (and script) may be the
best thing to do. But even that may be controversial sometimes. For
example, the Azerbaijani speakers in Iran are divided into what their
language should be called in Azerbaijani. Some insist on (a translation
equivalent to) Turkish, others on Azerbaijani, others on Azerbaijani
Turkish, and a few on Azeri.

Sorry Luis, this is not an easy question to answer at all.

roozbeh


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Re: icons for languages

[Lucas Vieites]

El jue, 08-09-2005 a las 21:16 +0200, Jordi Mallach escribió:
> On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 01:28:25PM -0400, Luis Villa wrote:
> > Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate? Anything I should be aware
> > of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
> > language visually?
> 
> In general country flags don't map to languages very well.
> Do you want Argentina, Colombia or Spain for Spanish?
> 

  Or, keeping it closer to home (for english-speakers), which flag for
English (U.S.A., UK, Australia, India maybe ??)


> I would totally avoid flags here.
> 
> Jordi
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Re: icons for languages

[Clytie Siddall]

On 09/09/2005, at 2:58 AM, Luis Villa wrote:


Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate? Anything I should be aware
of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
language visually?


Flags are political, and they don't map languages well, as another  
listmember said. The language belongs to the people who speak it, not  
to a geographic political entity. However, actually representing  
language in an icon is a challenging task ... how about a speech  
bubble, as suggested, with each language's word for "torrent" or  
whatever word you thought represented your project best?


That way people would see the way the language looks, which I  
personally find fascinating. :)


I hope this is useful.




from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nhóm  
Việt hóa phần mềm tự do)

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN


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Re: icons for languages

[dooteo]

Hi,

On og., 2005-09-08 at 21:16 +0200, Jordi Mallach wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 01:28:25PM -0400, Luis Villa wrote:
> > Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate? Anything I should be aware
> > of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
> > language visually?
> 
> In general country flags don't map to languages very well.
> Do you want Argentina, Colombia or Spain for Spanish?


I'm agree too. But which way can any icon represent to a specific
language? As far as I know languages have no countries... :)

So I think better is to use text (instead of icon) or maybe people
talking icon with a scpecific lang at bottom (like a box with bz2, tar,
etc)

Best regards,

Dooteo

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Re: icons for languages

[Jordi Mallach]

On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 01:28:25PM -0400, Luis Villa wrote:
> Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate? Anything I should be aware
> of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
> language visually?

In general country flags don't map to languages very well.
Do you want Argentina, Colombia or Spain for Spanish?

I would totally avoid flags here.

Jordi
-- 
Jordi Mallach Pérez  --  Debian developer http://www.debian.org/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sindominio.net/
GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/


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Re: icons for languages

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, Luis Villa wrote:

> If I wanted to put little icons next to the languages here:
>
> http://torrent.gnome.org/
>
> Would flags be appropriate/inappropriate? Anything I should be aware
> of if I try to do that? Are there any other decent ways to do signify
> language visually?
>
> Luis

Hey Luis,

Not exactly what you want, but we have a collection of icons for
scripts here:

  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=313496

may do the job as well.


--behdad
http://behdad.org/
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