Re: ubuntu translation credits
2006-09-24 klockan 14:22 skrev Benoît Dejean: Le dimanche 24 septembre 2006 à 11:52 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee a écrit : 2006-09-24 klockan 11:45 skrev Benoît Dejean: Le samedi 23 septembre 2006 à 17:15 +0200, Benoît Dejean a écrit : Translator names are not only in the (comment) header of the source. po files. Most applications have a transation-credits string that shows up in the .mo files. Are you suggesting that i should run 'strings *.mo' to get credits for translations ? Last time i used this technique, it was to check if a binary proprietary program did not illegaly embed GPL software. No, just that the same names appear in the translated by tab of the Credits dialog (hit the button in appliation about dialogs!). Not sure if this string also qualifies as copyright notice, but at least in the Dutch (nl) translation those strings contain exactly the same names. mvrgr, Wouter -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl de welvaartstaat? :: of die bestaat? :: ze vraagt zich echt af -- monza signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
On 25/09/2006, at 5:47 AM, Toby Smithe wrote: Please make sure that any cases of removed copyrights are bug reported in Ubuntu's bug system, and please let us know the links to those bug reports. If there is no action on those bug reports, please feel free to take this matter further by reporting it to the GNOME Foundation board. Also, those on ubuntu-devel would like to know examples of offending packages, and where to find the strings, in source and at runtime. So far in this discussion, there hasn't been a single direct reference, and I think it's time for some. I didn't record the ones I saw on Rosetta: at the time I thought it must be a mistake and would automatically be fixed. :( I don't have a copy of the Ubuntu CD distributed in Hanoi, because I can't travel. I don't have time to crawl through Rosetta, examining each of our PO files. I have very limited available time, which I have to spend on translating, because we are extremely short of translators. If I get some more time to chase up all those files, I'll report each one. But I do think you can accept from our emails that this has definitely happened, and that a policy to avoid it happening again would be both prudent and friendly. from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nhóm Việt hóa phần mềm tự do) http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Le dimanche 24 septembre 2006 à 21:17 +0100, Toby Smithe a écrit : Also, those on ubuntu-devel would like to know examples of offending packages, and where to find the strings, in source and at runtime. So far in this discussion, there hasn't been a single direct reference, and I think it's time for some. Ubuntu 6.06 i386 CD : gnome-system-monitor, gnome-panel, etc. If would want a bigger list, just ask, and i'll reinstall dapper. -- GNOME http://www.gnomefr.org/ LibGTop http://directory.fsf.org/libgtop.html signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
On 24/09/2006, at 5:25 AM, Toby Smithe wrote: Wouter Bolsterlee wrote: 2006-09-23 klockan 21:09 skrev Toby Smithe: I do work on the Ubuntu en_GB translation, as some of you may know. I agree it is hard to merge upstream translation changes, but apart from that, Rosetta is a superb interface. Inexperienced volunteer changes are not committed, as approval into a team is required. The main problem with the Dutch (nl) translation has been solved some time ago: there where *way* to many people in the team contributing crap translations. Now that every member of the team has been removed and only added back after approval by the coordinator, this is not much of a problem anymore :) Well, I'm sorry to say this but that was rather the fault of the coordinator, as the team should have started out as being approval- only membership from the beginning. However, I still completely understand your feelings. I was a bit distressed today to be told that at Software Freedom Day in Hà Nội on the 16th, Ubuntu CDs were distributed which Ubuntu had localized in Vietnamese. I know most, if not all translations on that disk were from my team (upstream work here, at KDE, Debian and in single-program projects like Mailman, Fonforge, Inkscape etc.) It does indeed feel unfair to see Ubuntu taking credit for our work. I have seen our translator names removed from PO files in Ubuntu, and in general, I'm unhappy about this situation. Due to the continuing access-control and quality-assurance issues in Rosetta, I have advised my team not to use it. The Ubuntu Vietnamese statistics on Launchpad represent my team's work upstream. :( from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nhóm Việt hóa phần mềm tự do) http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Le samedi 23 septembre 2006 à 18:47 +0200, Claude Paroz a écrit : Le samedi 23 septembre 2006 à 18:16 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee a écrit : 2006-09-23 klockan 17:15 skrev Benoît Dejean: i've just noticed that on ubuntu 5.04, About-Translators displays most of the time The Ubuntu Team. I haven't checked newer releases. This seems totally unfriendly. Do they have the right to rip off our names (and copyright ?). We have to to something about this legal issue. Is anyone already aware of this problem ? There is already bug reports about that. https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+bug/116 https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+bug/59377 (My point has nothing to do with how they work with rosetta.) I'm disappointed that you call bug something that was done on purpose and that is present is two releases. I'm expecting public apologies from Ubuntu or else i really don't get why we should keep working FOR this company. In the Linux/SCO affair, as SCO refused the terms of the GPL, GCC dropped SCO support and made a public notice about it. I'm not joking. I make no special case of Ubuntu. They steal our work. If it has not already been done, i'm requesting that some representative of gnome-i18n officially contact Ubuntu to ask for apologies and explanations. Thanks. -- GNOME http://www.gnomefr.org/ LibGTop http://directory.fsf.org/libgtop.html signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Benoît Dejean wrote: They steal our work. I don't understand this. Everyone is free to fork our translations and keeping the credits (in the translator-credits string) is not mandatory. Whether forking is a good thing is another matter -- I agree that often it's suboptimal and a waste of efforts, especially if these forks are not merged upstream or at least offered for review. However, AFAIK they change the copyright to something like Rossetta contributors, which is illegal if they remove the original copyright notice. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Benoît Dejean wrote: They steal our work. No, they just behave not optimally. Yavor Doganov wrote: I don't understand this. Everyone is free to fork our translations and keeping the credits (in the translator-credits string) is not mandatory. Yep, there should be a clear notice whose ass to flame. People do no understand that Ubuntu's versions are not those of upstream. I have bugs in our bugtracking system that are Ubuntu's fault. Whether forking is a good thing is another matter -- I agree that often it's suboptimal and a waste of efforts, especially if these forks are not merged upstream or at least offered for review. I would second that saying that it is extremely suboptimal. Something has broken in the chain of communication. Ubuntu's contributors are free to make their own translations, but I believe the enthusiasm of the people there will be curbed when they realize that they are unnecessarily repeating jobs already done and that they can be much more productive helping, rather than supplementing us. However, AFAIK they change the copyright to something like Rossetta contributors, which is illegal if they remove the original copyright notice. Is there anyone that can handle the situation with tact and patience so that we can rather help each other rather than mess things up and start discussions of legal and illegal behaviour? Kind regards: al_shopov ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Op zo, 24-09-2006 te 13:50 +0300, schreef Alexander Shopov: Yep, there should be a clear notice whose ass to flame. People do no understand that Ubuntu's versions are not those of upstream. I have bugs in our bugtracking system that are Ubuntu's fault. I'm just assuming here, but this is probably the reason why Ubuntu replaced the translators-credits string with 'the ubuntu team'. There was probably no bad intention on their side; 'them trying to steal the credits'. Just a way to ensure upstream translators are not bothered with translation bugs introduced by the rosetta team. Still, like Wouter said, it would be better if ubuntu fixed the rosetta system to use the upstream translations where possible instead of their own. Tino Meinen ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Le dimanche 24 septembre 2006 à 13:50 +0300, Alexander Shopov a écrit : Benoît Dejean wrote: They steal our work. No, they just behave not optimally. Call it how you want : they put their name on our work. This is not friendly. Is there anyone that can handle the situation with tact and patience so that we can rather help each other rather than mess things up and start discussions of legal and illegal behaviour? I've already asked for that. Let's wait for a reply from i18n masters. -- GNOME http://www.gnomefr.org/ LibGTop http://directory.fsf.org/libgtop.html signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
On 9/24/06, Benoît Dejean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le dimanche 24 septembre 2006 à 13:50 +0300, Alexander Shopov a écrit : Benoît Dejean wrote: They steal our work. No, they just behave not optimally. Call it how you want : they put their name on our work. This is not friendly. Is there anyone that can handle the situation with tact and patience so that we can rather help each other rather than mess things up and start discussions of legal and illegal behaviour? I've already asked for that. Let's wait for a reply from i18n masters. I think it would help if we first assume that this wasn't done on purpose, and it's just some mistake. Sometimes fresh volunteers don't realize what they are allowed and not allowed to do with copyrights. Please make sure that any cases of removed copyrights are bug reported in Ubuntu's bug system, and please let us know the links to those bug reports. If there is no action on those bug reports, please feel free to take this matter further by reporting it to the GNOME Foundation board. Mdbh Christian ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Christian Rose wrote: On 9/24/06, Benoît Dejean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le dimanche 24 septembre 2006 à 13:50 +0300, Alexander Shopov a écrit : Benoît Dejean wrote: They steal our work. No, they just behave not optimally. Call it how you want : they put their name on our work. This is not friendly. Is there anyone that can handle the situation with tact and patience so that we can rather help each other rather than mess things up and start discussions of legal and illegal behaviour? I've already asked for that. Let's wait for a reply from i18n masters. I think it would help if we first assume that this wasn't done on purpose, and it's just some mistake. Sometimes fresh volunteers don't realize what they are allowed and not allowed to do with copyrights. Please make sure that any cases of removed copyrights are bug reported in Ubuntu's bug system, and please let us know the links to those bug reports. If there is no action on those bug reports, please feel free to take this matter further by reporting it to the GNOME Foundation board. Also, those on ubuntu-devel would like to know examples of offending packages, and where to find the strings, in source and at runtime. So far in this discussion, there hasn't been a single direct reference, and I think it's time for some. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFFuffv7fgPJvITk4RAqPCAJ9qcrdZaC7nmen1NNP0m56capzx8QCg3l9m 6ockg4Q2Qf5tChHxoiUk/ng= =/1Sa -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
ubuntu translation credits
Hi, i've just noticed that on ubuntu 5.04, About-Translators displays most of the time The Ubuntu Team. I haven't checked newer releases. This seems totally unfriendly. Do they have the right to rip off our names (and copyright ?). We have to to something about this legal issue. Is anyone already aware of this problem ? -- GNOME http://www.gnomefr.org/ LibGTop http://directory.fsf.org/libgtop.html signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
2006-09-23 klockan 17:15 skrev Benoît Dejean: i've just noticed that on ubuntu 5.04, About-Translators displays most of the time The Ubuntu Team. I haven't checked newer releases. This seems totally unfriendly. Do they have the right to rip off our names (and copyright ?). We have to to something about this legal issue. Is anyone already aware of this problem ? Ubuntu sucks wrt upstream translation work in many respects. Upstream translations are not applied to their packages, while their own translations (mostly from inexperienced volunteers using the crappy Rosetta web interface) make it into a release, causing *really low* quality i18n for the software we worked so hard for to get right and consistent... mvrgr, Wouter -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Le samedi 23 septembre 2006 à 18:16 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee a écrit : 2006-09-23 klockan 17:15 skrev Benoît Dejean: i've just noticed that on ubuntu 5.04, About-Translators displays most of the time The Ubuntu Team. I haven't checked newer releases. This seems totally unfriendly. Do they have the right to rip off our names (and copyright ?). We have to to something about this legal issue. Is anyone already aware of this problem ? There is already bug reports about that. https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+bug/116 https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+bug/59377 You can also raise bugs against Ubuntu packages when you see some. Ubuntu sucks wrt upstream translation work in many respects. Upstream translations are not applied to their packages, while their own translations (mostly from inexperienced volunteers using the crappy Rosetta web interface) make it into a release, causing *really low* quality i18n for the software we worked so hard for to get right and consistent... Please Wouter, don't rant so hard. It's worth nothing and doesn't help free software. Ubuntu HAS to improve this situation, and the best way is to told them to do so. Regards. Claude ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Wouter Bolsterlee wrote: 2006-09-23 klockan 17:15 skrev Benoît Dejean: i've just noticed that on ubuntu 5.04, About-Translators displays most of the time The Ubuntu Team. I haven't checked newer releases. This seems totally unfriendly. Do they have the right to rip off our names (and copyright ?). We have to to something about this legal issue. Is anyone already aware of this problem ? Ubuntu sucks wrt upstream translation work in many respects. Upstream translations are not applied to their packages, while their own translations (mostly from inexperienced volunteers using the crappy Rosetta web interface) make it into a release, causing *really low* quality i18n for the software we worked so hard for to get right and consistent... I do work on the Ubuntu en_GB translation, as some of you may know. I agree it is hard to merge upstream translation changes, but apart from that, Rosetta is a superb interface. Inexperienced volunteer changes are not committed, as approval into a team is required. We have made some decisions in Ubuntu to diverge (speaking for en_GB) and that makes life harder on all parts. However, I agree that just putting The Ubuntu Team is a bad idea. Nonetheless, I am unsure as to where you find that string. Which About? Where? Any specific application? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFFYZQv7fgPJvITk4RAkU/AKDNsra/2OuWvQJzjRpWKTv9eZEe5gCg1a2D Fft9C/sWxbQdHRKEV+60Qn0= =VRmg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
2006-09-23 klockan 18:47 skrev Claude Paroz: Le samedi 23 septembre 2006 à 18:16 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee a écrit : Ubuntu sucks wrt upstream translation work in many respects. Upstream translations are not applied to their packages, while their own translations (mostly from inexperienced volunteers using the crappy Rosetta web interface) make it into a release, causing *really low* quality i18n for the software we worked so hard for to get right and consistent... Please Wouter, don't rant so hard. It's worth nothing and doesn't help free software. Ubuntu HAS to improve this situation, and the best way is to told them to do so. Sorry for being so harsh. It's just that it *really* doesn't feel good if you get complaints from users about translation stuff that has been fixed ages ago and it's only due to faulty packaging and i18n policies from Ubuntu. mvrgr, Wouter P.S. Don't get me wrong, I suggest Ubuntu to everyone who wants to use a Linux Desktop. Even though I don't use Ubuntu myself, it's a great distribution and from my (upstream) Gnome point of view Ubuntu does an amazing job wrt spreading Gnome. -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl she called out a warning :: don't ever let life pass you by -- incubus signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
2006-09-23 klockan 21:09 skrev Toby Smithe: I do work on the Ubuntu en_GB translation, as some of you may know. I agree it is hard to merge upstream translation changes, but apart from that, Rosetta is a superb interface. Inexperienced volunteer changes are not committed, as approval into a team is required. The main problem with the Dutch (nl) translation has been solved some time ago: there where *way* to many people in the team contributing crap translations. Now that every member of the team has been removed and only added back after approval by the coordinator, this is not much of a problem anymore :) mvrgr, Wouter -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl don't just call me pessimist :: try and read between the lines -- tool signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
Le samedi 23 septembre 2006 à 21:24 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee a écrit : 2006-09-23 klockan 18:47 skrev Claude Paroz: Le samedi 23 septembre 2006 à 18:16 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee a écrit : Ubuntu sucks wrt upstream translation work in many respects. Upstream translations are not applied to their packages, while their own translations (mostly from inexperienced volunteers using the crappy Rosetta web interface) make it into a release, causing *really low* quality i18n for the software we worked so hard for to get right and consistent... Please Wouter, don't rant so hard. It's worth nothing and doesn't help free software. Ubuntu HAS to improve this situation, and the best way is to told them to do so. Sorry for being so harsh. It's just that it *really* doesn't feel good if you get complaints from users about translation stuff that has been fixed ages ago and it's only due to faulty packaging and i18n policies from Ubuntu. I can understand your feelings. I know that Rosetta devs are working hard to improve this. I hope this will be soon resolved. mvrgr, Wouter P.S. Don't get me wrong, I suggest Ubuntu to everyone who wants to use a Linux Desktop. Even though I don't use Ubuntu myself, it's a great distribution and from my (upstream) Gnome point of view Ubuntu does an amazing job wrt spreading Gnome. OK, thanks for this clarification :-) Claude ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: ubuntu translation credits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Wouter Bolsterlee wrote: 2006-09-23 klockan 21:09 skrev Toby Smithe: I do work on the Ubuntu en_GB translation, as some of you may know. I agree it is hard to merge upstream translation changes, but apart from that, Rosetta is a superb interface. Inexperienced volunteer changes are not committed, as approval into a team is required. The main problem with the Dutch (nl) translation has been solved some time ago: there where *way* to many people in the team contributing crap translations. Now that every member of the team has been removed and only added back after approval by the coordinator, this is not much of a problem anymore :) Well, I'm sorry to say this but that was rather the fault of the coordinator, as the team should have started out as being approval-only membership from the beginning. However, I still completely understand your feelings. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFFZEYv7fgPJvITk4RAkPYAJ9x0Qir7rELQsZttshrrpN2eecO8gCgo42g rN1xwefkQNZbr5BKG/FF8nY= =OQKf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
