Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-28 Thread 0x90 
> TL;DR:
> Running applications in the background is a valid use, and we'd like to 
> improve on what we have. We don't think legacy status icons are a good 
> pattern and discourage their use.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think this is what I was remembering, not specifically legacy status 
> icons which as you correctly said has a number of flaws.  Strangely, I don't 
> really miss the tray icons..  So, victory?
> 

I agree that your target is good and that ideally we would not need the tray.

But I do miss a replacement, seriously, without TopIcons I would not be using 
Gnome.
I am not alone, just look at the popularity of topicons and topicons plus and 
read the comments.
So, no, not really a victory.



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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-28 Thread Adam Tauno Williams 
On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 15:54 +, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> > Running applications in the background is a valid use, and we'd
> > like to improve on what we have. We don't think legacy status icons
> > are a good pattern and discourage their use
> Yeah, I think this is what I was remembering, not specifically legacy
> status icons which as you correctly said has a number of flaws. 
> Strangely, I don't really miss the tray icons..  So, victory?

Neither do I [miss the tray icons].

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383
Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA


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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-28 Thread Sriram Ramkrishna 
On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 7:20 AM Florian Müllner  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 1:19 PM 0x90 <0...@phocean.net> wrote:
>
>> Le 28/09/2016 à 08:03, Sriram Ramkrishna a écrit :
>> >
>> > Jean-Christophe Baptiste : to answer your question in regards to the
>> tray design, last time I heard about it, the design is not complete.  I
>> don't think anybody is quite happy with what we have right now.  Allan or
>> Lapo can probably expand on that.  It is my assumption that we aren't done
>> yet.
>
>
> Sorry, but that isn't really correct - it's true that nobody is truly
> happy with what we have, but that doesn't mean that the design is
> incomplete or somehow in flux. There are two constraints - one of design
> and one technical - that severely limit the available options:
>

Thanks for the correction!  Yes, I was trying to recall a conversation
about some time back, so glad that you were able to step in and provide
some concrete background on the design pattern.


>
> TL;DR:
> Running applications in the background is a valid use, and we'd like to
> improve on what we have. We don't think legacy status icons are a good
> pattern and discourage their use.
>
>
Yeah, I think this is what I was remembering, not specifically legacy
status icons which as you correctly said has a number of flaws.  Strangely,
I don't really miss the tray icons..  So, victory?

sri


> Cheers,
> Florian
>
>
> [0] https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Whiteboards/BackgroundApps
> [1]
> https://specifications.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s10.html
> [2] https://developer.gnome.org/gio/stable/GNotification.html
> [3] https://developer.gnome.org/gio/stable/GApplication.html
>
>
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-28 Thread Florian Müllner 
On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 1:19 PM 0x90 <0...@phocean.net> wrote:

> Le 28/09/2016 à 08:03, Sriram Ramkrishna a écrit :
> >
> > Jean-Christophe Baptiste : to answer your question in regards to the
> tray design, last time I heard about it, the design is not complete.  I
> don't think anybody is quite happy with what we have right now.  Allan or
> Lapo can probably expand on that.  It is my assumption that we aren't done
> yet.


Sorry, but that isn't really correct - it's true that nobody is truly happy
with what we have, but that doesn't mean that the design is incomplete or
somehow in flux. There are two constraints - one of design and one
technical - that severely limit the available options:

(1) The top right is intended to interact with your system, so we don't
want applications to mix-in there. Apart from separating system- and
application space, the top bar also behaves like a menubar, that is when a
menu is open, you can browse through neighboring menus via keyboard or
pointer hover - embedding mini applications inside the top bar would break
that pattern.

(2) Tray "icons" are really tiny, undecorated application windows. Those
applications commonly want to grab keyboard and pointer in reaction to
events, which they can only successfully do when there isn't an existing
grab by another process. This means: If we want tray icons to be able to
show a popup menu, the icon cannot be in a place where gnome-shell itself
has grabbed the pointer or keyboard (inside any of the top bar menus,
anywhere in the overview, ...).

So yes, there are places that make much more sense (at the bottom of the
overview, or similar to notifications in a section of the date+time drop
down), but those don't work due to (2). And yes, they would work a tad bit
better mixed-in with the system UI in the top bar at the cost of the top
bar working a tad bit worse, but that's not the right trade-off in our
opinion (1). There is an extension to move the icons there, but there is no
intention to make this the default, sorry.

It may be possible to slightly improve the current tray icon support within
those constraints, but I don't expect anything radically better. Frankly,
in my opinion time is better spend on fleshing out the design pattern for
background apps[0] and advocate it - it's not like 16x16 mini apps that are
very limited on where they can appear is a perfect (or even great) solution
for the use case of getting long-running applications out of the way. There
are cross-desktop ways for adding additional actions to application
launchers[1] and notifying the user about noteworthy events without the
need of an open window[2], so it's mostly a question of how we expect those
pieces to be used together to provide background functionality. From a
developer perspective, "open a window when launched while already running
in the background" and "open a window when a status icon is clicked while
running in the background" aren't very different, at least with GTK+[3].

TL;DR:
Running applications in the background is a valid use, and we'd like to
improve on what we have. We don't think legacy status icons are a good
pattern and discourage their use.

Cheers,
Florian


[0] https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Whiteboards/BackgroundApps
[1]
https://specifications.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s10.html
[2] https://developer.gnome.org/gio/stable/GNotification.html
[3] https://developer.gnome.org/gio/stable/GApplication.html
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-28 Thread Jan Niklas Hasse 
On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 20:42, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 16:05 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
> > While it makes sense for some applications, like email, it's rather
> > confusing for something like an IRC client: I don't want it to run at
> > start up, but I also want to be able to let it run in the background
> > without a window. Without the tray I have NO idea if my IRC client is
> > currently running (without using `ps aux` or something like that).
> 
> You can:
>   (a) start it an minimize it - it appears in the tray.

It also appears in the window lists (Activities overwiew or Alt+Tab list) and I 
don't want that.

>- or - 
>   (b) have it start at startup.

Quoting myself: "I don't want it to run at start up"

> A package could very well choose to contain a shell extension if it
> needs some persistent custom presentation - a path exists to solve that
> problem. 

This will only work for GNOME Shell users. Why should a developer care if a 
tray icon covers nearly everything else (Windows, Mac, MATE, XFCE, ...)? A 
solution for Gtk and Qt is needed which will fallback to a tray icon. 
libappindicator comes close.
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-28 Thread 0x90 
Le 28/09/2016 à 08:03, Sriram Ramkrishna a écrit :
> 

> 
> Jean-Christophe Baptiste : to answer your question in regards to the tray 
> design, last time I heard about it, the design is not complete.  I don't 
> think anybody is quite happy with what we have right now.  Allan or Lapo can 
> probably expand on that.  It is my assumption that we aren't done yet.  If 
> you are interested in solving the problem then please visit #gnome-design on 
> irc.gnome.org .
> 

I will for sure, thank you!

It is nice to see some open-mindedness and that there is actually room for 
discussion.



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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-28 Thread Sriram Ramkrishna 
> [deleted thread with various bits of hostility]


I'm disappointed that this thread went so off track.  We should honestly
try to answer these questions instead of aggressively question people's
work flows.  There is more hostility that is warranted and we should strive
to keep  GNOME mailing lists as places that people feel welcome to ask
questions even if they are challenging or possibly nonsensical .  Unless it
is an obvious troll, in which case refer to the mailing list owner to take
care of the issue.


Jean-Christophe Baptiste : to answer your question in regards to the tray
design, last time I heard about it, the design is not complete.  I don't
think anybody is quite happy with what we have right now.  Allan or Lapo
can probably expand on that.  It is my assumption that we aren't done yet.
If you are interested in solving the problem then please visit
#gnome-design on irc.gnome.org.

In regards to the date and having the year, you can probably create or
hopefully someone else will be able to come up with an extension that will
add the year to the date.  I can understand that a date string might not
feel complete without adding the year.  I can't really tell you why we
don't add the year, other than there might be space constraints or maybe it
was not an important detail by our designers.  Feel free to talk to them on
the design channel as I indicated before.

I see several date extensions that will add the year, so perhaps that will
solve your problem.

Cheers,
sri
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Jeffrey Needle 
Nope, not a troll.  Just a longtime Linux user who just wonders why some 
developers make the choices they make.  Maybe I'm too old to be able to 
change easily.


On 09/27/2016 02:44 AM, Jean-Christophe Baptiste wrote:

Hello,

These criticisms are definitely not fair, I wonder if it is not a pure troll.
Gnome-shell is very functional and stable, I really enjoy it every day.

My only concern is that it is too much in advance compared to the status of the 
gtk application ecosystems. Many apps are not ready, and I wonder if they will 
be some day.

I am mainly thinking about the support of the notification system and the 
absence of tray.
It is at the core of the workflow, making sense of the notification area and 
the way dash works by default.

Without app support, the present workflow is completely broken. And for these 
numerous applications, the legacy tray or extensions (topicons) are still 
needed (but are currently not working in Wayland).

As an example of ready app, there is the Lollypop music player. It keeps 
playing while the window is closed and shows controls in the notification area.
But that is a rare case.

Here is a bunch of applications that cannot work with the workflow designed in 
Gnome-shell: keepassx, thunderbird, evolution, dropbox, pidgin, hexchat, 
usbguard, redshift. I use most of them all day long, but other people could 
probably find even more examples. And sometimes, there is simply no alternative 
whatsoever for these apps in the Gnu/Linux ecosystem.

Where is the man power to migrate or replace all these applications?

Regards,
JCB


Le 26/09/2016 à 23:35, Olaf Leidinger a écrit :

Hej,


I install Linux on a lot of computers.  My users all use an an app that
needs to start from a shell script, and after I leave, they have other
apps that likewise start in that way.  Minor?  Not to them.

Why would you start an shell script app via GUI?

Anyway, I'd suggest to adapt your shell scripts to place a simple XDG
file into the user's home. Or to globally create XDG files for those
apps and maintain them in a custom package. That's what I used to do
for proprietary stuff like Matlab or Mathematica. That way, they are
usable from any desktop.

Creating an XDG file is basically what "create launcher" used to do on
GNOME 2.x.


Nope.  The year --- why in the world can't we have the year display?
There are codes you can insert to display the date as you prefer.  Why
does Gnome not let us just enter those codes?

In the old days, you were able to use a configuration tool to enter
those codes.  Not any more.  Why?

I'm not going to ask why on earth you need the year displayed - since I
guess it's just an example. So let's come directly to the date codes.

Short answer: because nobody coded it.

Longer answer: It seems as nobody felt that showing the year was
needed. I'd assume the average user is scared off by entering date
codes / format strings. Furthermore, it's more complex. I'd be
astonished, however, it a patch to manually set a format string via
dconf would be rejected.



I want a working weather app.

What do you mean by working? I'm using the Openweather extension. Works
just great.

Mine says "Invalid Extension."

Probably not correctly installed. The weather extension works great
here on Debian testing. What distribution and GNOME version are you
using?



I want Gnome to do this stuff.  I grew up on the old Gnome classic
desktop, and I really wish I could continue.  Cinnamon is okay, but it
just doesn't feel comfortable to me.

Oh well.  Back to XFCE.  All is simple there.

What do you expect? You must realise, that you affront the people on
this list that way. Makes you look like a douche bag - and I guess this
is not what you intended. On top, why do you think that people care
what desktop you are using?



Thanks for the response.

You're welcome!

Best regards,

Olaf
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread 0x90 

> You can:
>   (a) start it an minimize it - it appears in the tray.
>- or - 
>   (b) have it start at startup.
> 
> I honestly cannot see a problem to be solved.
> 
> If it is running it appears in the tray underlined - that tells you it
> is active.

Trolling answer.


> 
>> Also the tray icon also shows other stuff: For Dropbox / Seafile it
>> shows when it's currently syncing data by spinning arrows.
> 
> A package could very well choose to contain a shell extension if it
> needs some persistent custom presentation - a path exists to solve that
> problem.  Many don't bother, likely, because it is a rather trivial
> matter.  How often do you care if something is synchronizing?  It was
> one of the failures of GNOME-2 is that the toolbar actively promoted a
> kind of AD-HD;  when there was work to be done.
> 

This reply just shows you have no idea what you/we are talking about.

You are on my ignore list from now.

Bye bye
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread 0x90 
Le 27/09/2016 à 20:37, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit :
>>> Also, for email, the accounts can be setup in the control panel as
>>> an online account. If an account is setup through there, then it 
>>> would certainly be nice to have GOA or something trigger 
>>> notifications for these accounts if an app is not open.
> 
> Does that not happen?  I am fairly certain that calendar & task data
> for GOA accounts is actually serviced by an Evolution process.  What
> other data would drive notification?
> 
>> You also don't get it and answer to the problem very, very partially.
>> The need is more global, what about other applications ?
> 
> That is the question "what about them?";  that's what I don't get.
> 
>> Your replies seem to confirm that you don't understand or care about
>> some use cases.
>> Again, Gnome plays nice if you use Gmail, supported cloud services
>> and most of your apps are web-based, so that most of the time you
>> have only a browser and maybe a terminal open.
> 
> Sorry, this mistake of assumption is on you.  I have half a dozen
> applications open in multiple workspaces across multiple monitors - all
> day.  And I don't use Gmail.
> 
>> I gave several applications other than an e-mail client as examples.
>> What will you do for them ?
> 
> The question is - what do you want done with applications in the
> background?  They are in the background;  there is zero reason for me
> to care about them until (a) I need them or (b) they need me.
> 

Are you a Gnome developper and what is your implication in the project?

Because, if you are not, I feel it is useless to continue this conversation 
with you or try to convince you.

You pretend to ignore my points because it is not your taste.
I would worry if you are somehow behind the gnome-shell design, but I don't 
care if you are a random user.

The conversation on reddit was much more constructive and technically savy.

Also, I think I will make a video to illustrate how broken the workflow is, 
without loosing time anymore with fanboys.
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Adam Tauno Williams 
On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 16:05 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 15:58, Sam Bull wrote:
> > On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 09:42 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 14:31 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 13:44, 0x90 wrote:
> > > > > See this thread:
> > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/53d5kz/need_dev_info_
> > > > > abou
> > > > > t_
> > > > > legacy_traytopicons_plus_in/
> > > > > To achieve this goal, all apps need to be redesigned.
> > > > After reading the thread I still don't know what the
> > > > replacement
> > > > is.
> > > > Just remove the tray icon? And run in the background without
> > > > illustrating that to the user?
> > > I don't know - this seems reasonable to me.  If an application
> > > has a
> > > service component... just provide the service.  As a user why do
> > > I
> > > care? There is no need for me to see something unless something
> > > happens.
> > 
> > Also, for email, the accounts can be setup in the control panel as
> > an
> > online account. If an account is setup through there, then it would
> > certainly be nice to have GOA or something trigger notifications 
> > for these accounts if an app is not open.
> > 
> > This would be similar to what the Ubuntu phone does with UOA,
> > though
> > this is more born out of the lifecycle requirement, that apps
> > aren't
> > allowed to run in the background.
> 
> While it makes sense for some applications, like email, it's rather
> confusing for something like an IRC client: I don't want it to run at
> start up, but I also want to be able to let it run in the background
> without a window. Without the tray I have NO idea if my IRC client is
> currently running (without using `ps aux` or something like that).

You can:
  (a) start it an minimize it - it appears in the tray.
   - or - 
  (b) have it start at startup.

I honestly cannot see a problem to be solved.

If it is running it appears in the tray underlined - that tells you it
is active.

> Also the tray icon also shows other stuff: For Dropbox / Seafile it
> shows when it's currently syncing data by spinning arrows.

A package could very well choose to contain a shell extension if it
needs some persistent custom presentation - a path exists to solve that
problem.  Many don't bother, likely, because it is a rather trivial
matter.  How often do you care if something is synchronizing?  It was
one of the failures of GNOME-2 is that the toolbar actively promoted a
kind of AD-HD;  when there was work to be done.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383
Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA


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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Adam Tauno Williams 
> > Also, for email, the accounts can be setup in the control panel as
> > an online account. If an account is setup through there, then it 
> > would certainly be nice to have GOA or something trigger 
> > notifications for these accounts if an app is not open.

Does that not happen?  I am fairly certain that calendar & task data
for GOA accounts is actually serviced by an Evolution process.  What
other data would drive notification?

> You also don't get it and answer to the problem very, very partially.
> The need is more global, what about other applications ?

That is the question "what about them?";  that's what I don't get.

> Your replies seem to confirm that you don't understand or care about
> some use cases.
> Again, Gnome plays nice if you use Gmail, supported cloud services
> and most of your apps are web-based, so that most of the time you
> have only a browser and maybe a terminal open.

Sorry, this mistake of assumption is on you.  I have half a dozen
applications open in multiple workspaces across multiple monitors - all
day.  And I don't use Gmail.

> I gave several applications other than an e-mail client as examples.
> What will you do for them ?

The question is - what do you want done with applications in the
background?  They are in the background;  there is zero reason for me
to care about them until (a) I need them or (b) they need me.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383
Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA


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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread 0x90 
Le 27/09/2016 à 15:58, Sam Bull a écrit :
> On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 09:42 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 14:31 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 13:44, 0x90 wrote:
 See this thread:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/53d5kz/need_dev_info_abou
 t_
 legacy_traytopicons_plus_in/
 To achieve this goal, all apps need to be redesigned.
>>> After reading the thread I still don't know what the replacement
>>> is.
>>> Just remove the tray icon? And run in the background without
>>> illustrating that to the user?
>> I don't know - this seems reasonable to me.  If an application has a
>> service component... just provide the service.  As a user why do I
>> care? There is no need for me to see something unless something
>> happens.
> 
> Also, for email, the accounts can be setup in the control panel as an
> online account. If an account is setup through there, then it would
> certainly be nice to have GOA or something trigger notifications for
> these accounts if an app is not open.
> 
> This would be similar to what the Ubuntu phone does with UOA, though
> this is more born out of the lifecycle requirement, that apps aren't
> allowed to run in the background.
> 

You also don't get it and answer to the problem very, very partially.
The need is more global, what about other applications ?

Your replies seem to confirm that you don't understand or care about some use 
cases.
Again, Gnome plays nice if you use Gmail, supported cloud services and most of 
your apps are web-based, so that most of the time you have only a browser and 
maybe a terminal open.

But I and MANY other user do use more applications than that.

I gave several applications other than an e-mail client as examples. What will 
you do for them ?
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Jan Niklas Hasse 
On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 15:58, Sam Bull wrote:
> On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 09:42 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 14:31 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
> > > On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 13:44, 0x90 wrote:
> > > > See this thread:
> > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/53d5kz/need_dev_info_abou
> > > > t_
> > > > legacy_traytopicons_plus_in/
> > > > To achieve this goal, all apps need to be redesigned.
> > > After reading the thread I still don't know what the replacement
> > > is.
> > > Just remove the tray icon? And run in the background without
> > > illustrating that to the user?
> > I don't know - this seems reasonable to me.  If an application has a
> > service component... just provide the service.  As a user why do I
> > care? There is no need for me to see something unless something
> > happens.
> 
> Also, for email, the accounts can be setup in the control panel as an
> online account. If an account is setup through there, then it would
> certainly be nice to have GOA or something trigger notifications for
> these accounts if an app is not open.
> 
> This would be similar to what the Ubuntu phone does with UOA, though
> this is more born out of the lifecycle requirement, that apps aren't
> allowed to run in the background.

While it makes sense for some applications, like email, it's rather confusing 
for something like an IRC client: I don't want it to run at start up, but I 
also want to be able to let it run in the background without a window. Without 
the tray I have NO idea if my IRC client is currently running (without using 
`ps aux` or something like that).

Note that I'm not alone with this: Google has required that apps which want to 
run in the background to have a presistant notification so that the user knows 
about it: 
http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/07/29/android-engineer-explains-why-some-apps-suddenly-have-persistent-notifications-after-you-upgrade-to-android-4-3/

Also the tray icon also shows other stuff: For Dropbox / Seafile it shows when 
it's currently syncing data by spinning arrows.
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread 0x90 
Le 27/09/2016 à 15:42, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit :
> On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 14:31 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 13:44, 0x90 wrote:
>>> See this thread:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/53d5kz/need_dev_info_about_
>>> legacy_traytopicons_plus_in/
>>> To achieve this goal, all apps need to be redesigned.
>> After reading the thread I still don't know what the replacement is.
>> Just remove the tray icon? And run in the background without
>> illustrating that to the user?
> 
> I don't know - this seems reasonable to me.  If an application has a
> service component... just provide the service.  As a user why do I
> care? There is no need for me to see something unless something
> happens.
> 
> GNOME Shell runs all kinds of components as background processes -
> there is no need to present to the user.  I have numerous Evolution
> processes, half a dozen GVFS processes, a GPG agent, an SSH agent, the
> zeitgeist-datahub, etc...  I see nothing from them unless I need to.
> 

Hmm yes... so what? I agree with that, it is not the topic.
Maybe it is me as I am not native in English, but it has nothing to do with 
what I explained before.

The topic is what to do with EXISTING applications and CURRENT workflow.




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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Adam Tauno Williams 
On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 14:31 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 13:44, 0x90 wrote:
> > See this thread:
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/53d5kz/need_dev_info_about_
> > legacy_traytopicons_plus_in/
> > To achieve this goal, all apps need to be redesigned.
> After reading the thread I still don't know what the replacement is.
> Just remove the tray icon? And run in the background without
> illustrating that to the user?

I don't know - this seems reasonable to me.  If an application has a
service component... just provide the service.  As a user why do I
care? There is no need for me to see something unless something
happens.

GNOME Shell runs all kinds of components as background processes -
there is no need to present to the user.  I have numerous Evolution
processes, half a dozen GVFS processes, a GPG agent, an SSH agent, the
zeitgeist-datahub, etc...  I see nothing from them unless I need to.


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Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA


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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Jan Niklas Hasse 
On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 13:44, 0x90 wrote:
> See this thread:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/53d5kz/need_dev_info_about_legacy_traytopicons_plus_in/
> 
> To achieve this goal, all apps need to be redesigned.

After reading the thread I still don't know what the replacement is. Just 
remove the tray icon? And run in the background without illustrating that to 
the user?
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread 0x90 
See this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/53d5kz/need_dev_info_about_legacy_traytopicons_plus_in/

To achieve this goal, all apps need to be redesigned.

Le 27/09/2016 à 12:52, Jan Niklas Hasse a écrit :
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 11:47, 0x90 wrote:
>> Where is the man power to migrate or replace all these applications?
> 
> Migrate to what? There's no real alternative to the tray in Gtk AFAIK. 
> AppIndicator could work, but GNOME Shell doesn't even support it out of the 
> box (only via an extension 
> https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/615/appindicator-support/).
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Re: Notifications [Was: My gripes with Gnome Shell]

2016-09-27 Thread 0x90 
Then you did not read or understood my example with Lollypop.

Or with KeepassX : do you think that it is reasonable to close / re-run this 
app, retyping the password OR to leave it open all the time so that it shows in 
the Dock (forcing you to go back to its native workspace) and in the activity 
view.

Seriously such a workflow cannot be sane in any form for anyone who is 
seriously using his computer.

The problem is that you have to keep the GUI open to get the notifications 
or/and the application running in background.
And typically, such apps should not need to be in our sight all the time. I 
mean in the dock or activity, especially when the minimizing feature has no 
effect on this view.

It is OK if you run 2 apps, let's say your browser and your mail client.

But I have a much more intensive use, so I don't want to have background apps 
in my view. That is why so many (majority?) gnome users use an extension to 
have the tray on the bottom up.

I hope it clarifies, but it really seem to be hard to have Gnome people 
understand it, while many users are expecting a solution.


Le 27/09/2016 à 13:03, Adam Tauno Williams a écrit :
> On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 12:52 +0200, Jan Niklas Hasse wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 11:47, 0x90 wrote:
>>> Where is the man power to migrate or replace all these
>>> applications?
>> Migrate to what? There's no real alternative to the tray in Gtk
>> AFAIK. AppIndicator could work, but GNOME Shell doesn't even support
>> it out of the box (only via an extension 
>> https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/615/appindicator-support/).
> 
> As a user - - what is missing?
> 
> In Control / Notifications I have many options; the ability to turn
> on/off notification banners.  I see indication of notifications in the
> toolbar next to the time.  And I can toggle on/off notifications per
> application.  I have many detailed options - out of the box.
> 
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Sam Bull 
On Mon, 2016-09-26 at 15:57 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-09-26 at 12:38 -0700, Jeffrey Needle wrote:
> > Two things about Gnome that just make it unusable for me.  First,
> > the
> > top panel needs to be more customizable.  I want the FULL date,
> > not 
> > just the month and day.
> It is **vital** you know what YEAR it is?  That makes a DE
> "unusable"?

This is absolutely critical for us time-travelers, sometimes I can't
even remember what century I am in. If this is not fixed immediately,
I'll just have to switch back to KDE 6. :P

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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Stephen Allen 
On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 12:38:57PM -0700, Jeffrey Needle wrote:
> Two things about Gnome that just make it unusable for me.  First, the top
> panel needs to be more customizable.  I want the FULL date, not just the
> month and day.  I want a working weather app.  The other thing is the
> difficulty in adding some apps to the favorites. If it's an app that is
> launched, say, using a shell script, you have to manually create a file to
> make it appear in the apps display. For new users, who I install regularly,
> this is just too difficult. Why can't the developers make some of these
> things work correctly? Mate and XFCE have working weather apps.  And XFCE
> lets you display the date and time in so many ways, as does Cinnamon.

I'm using Gnome 3.22.0 on Debian Stretch, and I have a working weather
extension. What version of GnomeShell are you using and on what distro?

I agree with difficulty adding some apps to favourites, but otherwise,
GnomeShell is maturing nicely. The top panel can be customized through
extensions - maybe you should visit https://extensions.gnome.org/ and
view what's available to customize panels. HTH
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread Jan Niklas Hasse 
On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, at 11:47, 0x90 wrote:
> Where is the man power to migrate or replace all these applications?

Migrate to what? There's no real alternative to the tray in Gtk AFAIK. 
AppIndicator could work, but GNOME Shell doesn't even support it out of the box 
(only via an extension 
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/615/appindicator-support/).
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Notifications [Was: My gripes with Gnome Shell]

2016-09-27 Thread Adam Tauno Williams 
On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 11:47 +0200, 0x90 wrote:
> My only concern is that it is too much in advance compared to the
> status of the gtk application ecosystems. Many apps are not ready,
> and I wonder if they will be some day.
> As an example of ready app, there is the Lollypop music player. It
> keeps playing while the window is closed and shows controls in the
> notification area.
> But that is a rare case.
> Here is a bunch of applications that cannot work with the workflow
> designed in Gnome-shell: keepassx, thunderbird, evolution, dropbox,
> pidgin, hexchat, usbguard, redshift. I use most of them all day long,
> but other people could probably find even more examples. 

The notification scheme has been a bit of a mess, and changed a bunch
of times.

But what notifications are missing for an application like Evolution? 
 I am also in Shell + Evolution all day and I don't see anything missin
g.

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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-27 Thread 0x90 
Hello,

These criticisms are definitely not fair, I wonder if it is not a pure troll.
Gnome-shell is very functional and stable, I really enjoy it every day.

My only concern is that it is too much in advance compared to the status of the 
gtk application ecosystems. Many apps are not ready, and I wonder if they will 
be some day.

I am mainly thinking about the support of the notification system and the 
absence of tray.
It is at the core of the workflow, making sense of the notification area and 
the way dash works by default.

Without app support, the present workflow is completely broken. And for these 
numerous applications, the legacy tray or extensions (topicons) are still 
needed (but are currently not working in Wayland).

As an example of ready app, there is the Lollypop music player. It keeps 
playing while the window is closed and shows controls in the notification area.
But that is a rare case.

Here is a bunch of applications that cannot work with the workflow designed in 
Gnome-shell: keepassx, thunderbird, evolution, dropbox, pidgin, hexchat, 
usbguard, redshift. I use most of them all day long, but other people could 
probably find even more examples. And sometimes, there is simply no alternative 
whatsoever for these apps in the Gnu/Linux ecosystem.

Where is the man power to migrate or replace all these applications?

Regards,
JCB


Le 26/09/2016 à 23:35, Olaf Leidinger a écrit :
> Hej,
> 
>> I install Linux on a lot of computers.  My users all use an an app that 
>> needs to start from a shell script, and after I leave, they have other 
>> apps that likewise start in that way.  Minor?  Not to them.
> 
> Why would you start an shell script app via GUI?
> 
> Anyway, I'd suggest to adapt your shell scripts to place a simple XDG
> file into the user's home. Or to globally create XDG files for those
> apps and maintain them in a custom package. That's what I used to do
> for proprietary stuff like Matlab or Mathematica. That way, they are
> usable from any desktop.
> 
> Creating an XDG file is basically what "create launcher" used to do on
> GNOME 2.x. 
> 
>> Nope.  The year --- why in the world can't we have the year display?  
>> There are codes you can insert to display the date as you prefer.  Why 
>> does Gnome not let us just enter those codes?
>>
>> In the old days, you were able to use a configuration tool to enter 
>> those codes.  Not any more.  Why?
> 
> I'm not going to ask why on earth you need the year displayed - since I
> guess it's just an example. So let's come directly to the date codes.
> 
> Short answer: because nobody coded it.
> 
> Longer answer: It seems as nobody felt that showing the year was
> needed. I'd assume the average user is scared off by entering date
> codes / format strings. Furthermore, it's more complex. I'd be
> astonished, however, it a patch to manually set a format string via
> dconf would be rejected. 
> 
> 
I want a working weather app.  
>>> What do you mean by working? I'm using the Openweather extension. Works
>>> just great.  
>>
>> Mine says "Invalid Extension."
> 
> Probably not correctly installed. The weather extension works great
> here on Debian testing. What distribution and GNOME version are you
> using?
> 
> 
>> I want Gnome to do this stuff.  I grew up on the old Gnome classic 
>> desktop, and I really wish I could continue.  Cinnamon is okay, but it 
>> just doesn't feel comfortable to me.
>>
>> Oh well.  Back to XFCE.  All is simple there.
> 
> What do you expect? You must realise, that you affront the people on
> this list that way. Makes you look like a douche bag - and I guess this
> is not what you intended. On top, why do you think that people care
> what desktop you are using? 
> 
> 
>> Thanks for the response.
> 
> You're welcome!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Olaf
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-26 Thread Olaf Leidinger 
Hej,

> I install Linux on a lot of computers.  My users all use an an app that 
> needs to start from a shell script, and after I leave, they have other 
> apps that likewise start in that way.  Minor?  Not to them.

Why would you start an shell script app via GUI?

Anyway, I'd suggest to adapt your shell scripts to place a simple XDG
file into the user's home. Or to globally create XDG files for those
apps and maintain them in a custom package. That's what I used to do
for proprietary stuff like Matlab or Mathematica. That way, they are
usable from any desktop.

Creating an XDG file is basically what "create launcher" used to do on
GNOME 2.x. 

> Nope.  The year --- why in the world can't we have the year display?  
> There are codes you can insert to display the date as you prefer.  Why 
> does Gnome not let us just enter those codes?
> 
> In the old days, you were able to use a configuration tool to enter 
> those codes.  Not any more.  Why?

I'm not going to ask why on earth you need the year displayed - since I
guess it's just an example. So let's come directly to the date codes.

Short answer: because nobody coded it.

Longer answer: It seems as nobody felt that showing the year was
needed. I'd assume the average user is scared off by entering date
codes / format strings. Furthermore, it's more complex. I'd be
astonished, however, it a patch to manually set a format string via
dconf would be rejected. 


> >>I want a working weather app.  
> > What do you mean by working? I'm using the Openweather extension. Works
> > just great.  
> 
> Mine says "Invalid Extension."

Probably not correctly installed. The weather extension works great
here on Debian testing. What distribution and GNOME version are you
using?


> I want Gnome to do this stuff.  I grew up on the old Gnome classic 
> desktop, and I really wish I could continue.  Cinnamon is okay, but it 
> just doesn't feel comfortable to me.
> 
> Oh well.  Back to XFCE.  All is simple there.

What do you expect? You must realise, that you affront the people on
this list that way. Makes you look like a douche bag - and I guess this
is not what you intended. On top, why do you think that people care
what desktop you are using? 


> Thanks for the response.

You're welcome!

Best regards,

Olaf
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-26 Thread Pascal Obry 
Le lundi 26 septembre 2016 à 20:54 +, Jeffrey Needle a écrit :
> I want Gnome to do this stuff.  I grew up on the old Gnome classic 
> desktop, and I really wish I could continue.  Cinnamon is okay, but
> it just doesn't feel comfortable to me.

That's the whole point. Some people keep fighting GNOME Shell because
they want it to be what an DE was years ago! You need to adapt to it a bit, 
like anything else in the world if you want to enjoy it!

> Oh well.  Back to XFCE.  All is simple there.

Sure, that's maybe the best option for you if it suit you perfectly. As
I said a DE is complex and it is up to everyone to choose the one that
suit best.

Regards,

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-26 Thread Jeffrey Needle 

On 09/26/16 20:00, Pascal Obry wrote:

Le lundi 26 septembre 2016 à 12:38 -0700, Jeffrey Needle a écrit :

Two things about Gnome that just make it unusable for me.  First,

Unusable? And you list after some very minor points!!!


I install Linux on a lot of computers.  My users all use an an app that 
needs to start from a shell script, and after I leave, they have other 
apps that likewise start in that way.  Minor?  Not to them.




the
top panel needs to be more customizable.  I want the FULL date, not
just
the month and day.

You can add the day of week and the seconds. Is that what you are
looking for?


Nope.  The year --- why in the world can't we have the year display?  
There are codes you can insert to display the date as you prefer.  Why 
does Gnome not let us just enter those codes?


In the old days, you were able to use a configuration tool to enter 
those codes.  Not any more.  Why?



   I want a working weather app.

What do you mean by working? I'm using the Openweather extension. Works
just great.


Mine says "Invalid Extension."

The other thing is
the difficulty in adding some apps to the favorites. If it's an app
that
is launched, say, using a shell script, you have to manually create
a
file to make it appear in the apps display. For new users, who I
install
regularly, this is just too difficult. Why can't the developers make
some of these things work correctly? Mate and XFCE have working
weather apps.  And XFCE lets you display the date and time in so many
ways, as does Cinnamon.

So use Cinnamon if this is what you like. That's the good thing with
all the choice around... So I still don't get your point.



I want Gnome to do this stuff.  I grew up on the old Gnome classic 
desktop, and I really wish I could continue.  Cinnamon is okay, but it 
just doesn't feel comfortable to me.


Oh well.  Back to XFCE.  All is simple there.

Thanks for the response.
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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-26 Thread Jeffrey Needle 

Do you suppose they'll fix this one day?

On 09/26/16 19:46, Hector Carrasco wrote:

I'm agree


2016-09-26 16:38 GMT-03:00 Jeffrey Needle >:


Two things about Gnome that just make it unusable for me. First,
the top panel needs to be more customizable.  I want the FULL
date, not just the month and day.  I want a working weather app. 
The other thing is the difficulty in adding some apps to the

favorites. If it's an app that is launched, say, using a shell
script, you have to manually create a file to make it appear in
the apps display. For new users, who I install regularly, this is
just too difficult. Why can't the developers make some of these
things work correctly? Mate and XFCE have working weather apps. 
And XFCE lets you display the date and time in so many ways, as

does Cinnamon.

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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-26 Thread Adam Tauno Williams 
On Mon, 2016-09-26 at 12:38 -0700, Jeffrey Needle wrote:
> Two things about Gnome that just make it unusable for me.  First, the
> top panel needs to be more customizable.  I want the FULL date, not 
> just the month and day.

It is **vital** you know what YEAR it is?  That makes a DE "unusable"?

> I want a working weather app.  

Sorry, I cannot help you with that one - other than that I see numerous
weather widgets in the extensions database.   I see little point in
displaying the weather on my desktop 100% of the time.

> If it's an app that is launched, say, using a shell script, you have 
> to manually create a file to make it appear in the apps display. For 
> new users, who I install regularly, this is just too difficult. 

It is XDG.  It is simple, to refer to an application it has to have an
XDG [description] file.  AFAIK, 99.44% of packages include the XDG.  
Simply distribute an XDG file with your application start-script.

> Why can't the developers make some of these things work correctly?


They work perfectly.

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Re: My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-26 Thread Pascal Obry 
Le lundi 26 septembre 2016 à 12:38 -0700, Jeffrey Needle a écrit :
> Two things about Gnome that just make it unusable for me.  First, 

Unusable? And you list after some very minor points!!!

> the 
> top panel needs to be more customizable.  I want the FULL date, not
> just 
> the month and day.

You can add the day of week and the seconds. Is that what you are
looking for?

>   I want a working weather app.  

What do you mean by working? I'm using the Openweather extension. Works
just great.

> The other thing is 
> the difficulty in adding some apps to the favorites. If it's an app
> that 
> is launched, say, using a shell script, you have to manually create
> a 
> file to make it appear in the apps display. For new users, who I
> install 
> regularly, this is just too difficult. Why can't the developers make 
> some of these things work correctly? Mate and XFCE have working
> weather apps.  And XFCE lets you display the date and time in so many
> ways, as does Cinnamon.

So use Cinnamon if this is what you like. That's the good thing with
all the choice around... So I still don't get your point.

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

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My gripes with Gnome Shell

2016-09-26 Thread Jeffrey Needle 
Two things about Gnome that just make it unusable for me.  First, the 
top panel needs to be more customizable.  I want the FULL date, not just 
the month and day.  I want a working weather app.  The other thing is 
the difficulty in adding some apps to the favorites. If it's an app that 
is launched, say, using a shell script, you have to manually create a 
file to make it appear in the apps display. For new users, who I install 
regularly, this is just too difficult. Why can't the developers make 
some of these things work correctly? Mate and XFCE have working weather 
apps.  And XFCE lets you display the date and time in so many ways, as 
does Cinnamon.


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