Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Liz Dodd]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 11:11:22 -0400
"David T. via gnucash-user"  wrote:

> Given how easy it is to correct these problems (i.e., change the
> Account in the erroneous entry from Imbalance-XXX to some other
> account and press enter), I don't see why we continue to beat upon
> this subject.

I think that this is a worthwhile topic, and as the moderator I see no
reason to shut down discussion on how unbalanced transactions are
handled in Gnucash


Liz
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[arctostaphylos]

I'm going to repeat, probably, what's already been discussed. I understand
why GnuCash creates the Imbalance account (among a few others, like Orphan
and Equity:Opening Balance). I have no problem with that, and in practice
those accounts have been useful - especially in catching errors. 

I use GC for personal books (and now that my bookkeeper aka significant
other has tried GC to review my records it is generally approved), and also
for a small nonprofit I was drafted as treasurer of (because I admitted that
my IT education included a basic bookkeeping class). For personal books, I
ran GC, for a year or more, in parallel with an ancient system of
spreadsheets that I developed over the decades, and finally converted at the
beginning of this year. That's one thing the family bookkeeper very much
likes: the spreadsheet were always having link problems and imbalance
issues, and GC fixes all that.

The argument seems to be one of appearances: the accounts are useful, but
where they appear in the CoA should be more flexible than it is. I'll never
argue against flexibility (Semper Gumby!), but it works both ways. The
default should be the default, so people and the software know where to
expect things to be. Variations on that should be possible, because various
people and organizations don't do things the same way. That should be the
end of the argument. 

GC is designed (it seems) to be relatively rigid because it didn't start out
as full-fledged accounting software, competing with the Quickbooks and *
Accounting of the world, though it has evolved in that direction. It was
supposed to be simpler, more like Quicken. Either way, it works if you're
not trying to do things that are too complicated for it. Keeping extra
details for some records on the side can be helpful if it's too complicated,
initially, to understand how to make it work right) in GC - stocks & mutual
funds are a good example, for me - and spreadsheets are good for that. But
anyway, my 2c worth, for what it's worth.



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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[nvsoar]

On 06/03/21 11:14, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:



The only problem I have is that it is far too easy (IMO, IME!) to
accidentally create or use Orphan-* and Imbalance-* accounts just by
hitting the tab key one time too many. I'd prefer to be able to set an
option to disable that and to force me to balance the transaction
before leaving it.


You mean by (on the fly) creating an account with a name like 
"Imbalance" (or "Not-yet-assigned") to serve as a placeholder for when 
you don't know where it should go? That anything in there means an 
issue yet to be addressed? Gee, gnucash comes with that built in.


I know if the ONLY books you are keeping under gnucash are informal 
personal books, you might think it easy to just "create an account" on 
the fly. But some of us are keeping more formal books and might need 
to consult with somebody before making that decision. Sometimes it was 
as simple as getting an answer to "what was that item?" in a packet of 
receipts submitted for reimbursements.  Maybe need to get the 
accountant involved, maybe the board of directors, or the owner(s) of 
a business.


Note that "Imbalance"isn't the only sort of special account used to 
hold amounts until resolved. Many. if not most businesses have a 
"Suspense" account used when a payment comes in without necessary 
information to determine "what for". Then somebody's job to resolve 
everything in suspense. Businesses that do not ordinarily handle cash 
(and so not making daily bank deposits) might have an "undeposited 
cash" account to deal with rare cash situations.


Michael D Novack
Roger that.  I use a 'Pending Exchange' account when I haven't  yet 
figured out the situation at hand.
Many thanks and blessings to all who contribute to the health of 
GnuCash.  nvsoar

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Michael or Penny Novack]

The only problem I have is that it is far too easy (IMO, IME!) to
accidentally create or use Orphan-* and Imbalance-* accounts just by
hitting the tab key one time too many. I'd prefer to be able to set an
option to disable that and to force me to balance the transaction
before leaving it.


You mean by (on the fly) creating an account with a name like 
"Imbalance" (or "Not-yet-assigned") to serve as a placeholder for when 
you don't know where it should go? That anything in there means an issue 
yet to be addressed? Gee, gnucash comes with that built in.


I know if the ONLY books you are keeping under gnucash are informal 
personal books, you might think it easy to just "create an account" on 
the fly. But some of us are keeping more formal books and might need to 
consult with somebody before making that decision. Sometimes it was as 
simple as getting an answer to "what was that item?" in a packet of 
receipts submitted for reimbursements.  Maybe need to get the accountant 
involved, maybe the board of directors, or the owner(s) of a business.


Note that "Imbalance"isn't the only sort of special account used to hold 
amounts until resolved. Many. if not most businesses have a "Suspense" 
account used when a payment comes in without necessary information to 
determine "what for". Then somebody's job to resolve everything in 
suspense. Businesses that do not ordinarily handle cash (and so not 
making daily bank deposits) might have an "undeposited cash" account to 
deal with rare cash situations.


Michael D Novack



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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[w...@theprescotts.com]

I concur. It seems like this is a too minor an issue to warrant the number of 
posts on the subject. But I guess people feel strongly about it.

Will

On 2021 Jun 3, at 06-03 10:11:22, David T. via gnucash-user 
 wrote:

Given how easy it is to correct these problems (i.e., change the Account in the 
erroneous entry from Imbalance-XXX to some other account and press enter), I 
don't see why we continue to beat upon this subject.

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Jack Frillman via gnucash-user]

Maybe because for those new to GNC, like myself, it's not a very 
intuitive process and is easy to screw up.
After two months I still muck it up from time to time especially when 
I'm trying to modify a duplicated transaction that has splits.
I'm not complaining but providing an explanation to your "I don't see 
why we continue to beat upon this subject" comment.


On 6/3/21 11:11 AM, David T. via gnucash-user wrote:
Given how easy it is to correct these problems (i.e., change the 
Account in the erroneous entry from Imbalance-XXX to some other 
account and press enter), I don't see why we continue to beat upon 
this subject.


On 6/3/2021 10:12 AM, Adam Funk wrote:

On 2021-06-01, DaveC49 wrote:


Laura,

The reason Imbalance entries exist is that it is a fundamental 
principle in

double entry accounting that the sum of the debits and credits to the
various accounts that make up a transaction must be zero.

The Imbalance results if a user creates and saves a transaction in 
which
this is not true. GNuCash tries to force your hand on this. You will 
notice
that if you create a transaction in which the sum of the debits and 
credits
is not zero, GnuCash will open a new line with an amount which will 
balance
that sum with no account selected in the account column. If you 
select an
account to assign that imbalance to, then the transaction is then 
balanced.
If you do not and save the transaction without specifically 
assigning an
account to it, GnuCash will assign the amount by which the 
transaction is
unbalanced to an Imbalance account in the currency of the accounts. 
If the
transaction involves more than one currency it will be in the 
currency which

is imbalanced in the transaction.

The only problem I have is that it is far too easy (IMO, IME!) to
accidentally create or use Orphan-* and Imbalance-* accounts just by
hitting the tab key one time too many. I'd prefer to be able to set an
option to disable that and to force me to balance the transaction
before leaving it.

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David T. via gnucash-user]

Given how easy it is to correct these problems (i.e., change the Account 
in the erroneous entry from Imbalance-XXX to some other account and 
press enter), I don't see why we continue to beat upon this subject.


On 6/3/2021 10:12 AM, Adam Funk wrote:

On 2021-06-01, DaveC49 wrote:


Laura,

The reason Imbalance entries exist is that it is a fundamental principle in
double entry accounting that the sum of the debits and credits to the
various accounts that make up a transaction must be zero.

The Imbalance results if a user creates and saves a transaction in which
this is not true. GNuCash tries to force your hand on this. You will notice
that if you create a transaction in which the sum of the debits and credits
is not zero, GnuCash will open a new line with an amount which will balance
that sum with no account selected in the account column. If you select an
account to assign that imbalance to, then the transaction is then balanced.
If you do not and save the transaction without specifically assigning an
account to it, GnuCash will assign the amount by which the transaction is
unbalanced to an Imbalance account in the currency of the accounts. If the
transaction involves more than one currency it will be in the currency which
is imbalanced in the transaction.

The only problem I have is that it is far too easy (IMO, IME!) to
accidentally create or use Orphan-* and Imbalance-* accounts just by
hitting the tab key one time too many. I'd prefer to be able to set an
option to disable that and to force me to balance the transaction
before leaving it.

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Adam Funk]

On 2021-06-01, DaveC49 wrote:

> Laura,
>
> The reason Imbalance entries exist is that it is a fundamental principle in
> double entry accounting that the sum of the debits and credits to the
> various accounts that make up a transaction must be zero.
>
> The Imbalance results if a user creates and saves a transaction in which
> this is not true. GNuCash tries to force your hand on this. You will notice
> that if you create a transaction in which the sum of the debits and credits
> is not zero, GnuCash will open a new line with an amount which will balance
> that sum with no account selected in the account column. If you select an
> account to assign that imbalance to, then the transaction is then balanced.
> If you do not and save the transaction without specifically assigning an
> account to it, GnuCash will assign the amount by which the transaction is
> unbalanced to an Imbalance account in the currency of the accounts. If the
> transaction involves more than one currency it will be in the currency which
> is imbalanced in the transaction.

The only problem I have is that it is far too easy (IMO, IME!) to
accidentally create or use Orphan-* and Imbalance-* accounts just by
hitting the tab key one time too many. I'd prefer to be able to set an
option to disable that and to force me to balance the transaction
before leaving it.

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Stephen M. Butler]

On 6/2/21 2:36 PM, David Carlson wrote:

Stephen,

There have been several posts explaining why it can be desirable to 
allow postponement of the completion of a balanced transaction because 
not all the details are known but the core of the transaction should 
not be postponed into oblivion.


I was responding to the question "Why delete an account that's only 
going to get created again?".  Not commenting on whether or not the 
account should be created as needed.  Yes, most times being more careful 
will eliminate the sudden appearance of the account.  Again, note the 
"most".




On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 4:24 PM Stephen M. Butler 
mailto:stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:


On 6/2/21 11:22 AM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
> Why delete an account that's only going to get created again?

1.  So you know when something needs attention.
2.  Make you more careful to not let the account be created in the
first
place.

--Steve
>
>
>  Original Message 
> From: Michael Hendry mailto:hendry.mich...@gmail.com>>
> Sent: Wed Jun 02 12:25:39 EDT 2021
> To: Peter West mailto:p...@pbw.id.au>>
> Cc: GnuCash users group mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org>>
> Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ??
JUST CURIOUS
>
>> On 2 Jun 2021, at 02:44, Peter West mailto:p...@pbw.id.au>> wrote:
>>
>> I’m a fairly naive user, but I find the Imbalance-XXX and
Orphan-XXX accounts (at top level in my CoA) extremely useful, and
I understand why they are there. If I ever see a balance, I know I
have to fix something, which is a good reason to have them at the
top. I can’t comment on any changes that might have occurred in
the behaviour of these accounts recently. However, in respect of
the tidiness of the CoA, one possible solution is to create a
special case for these accounts, such that they only display in
the CoA listing when they have a non-zero balance.
>>
>> Peter
>
> Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when
you’ve sorted out the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll
be created automatically if required.
>
> Michael
>
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David Cousens]

David,
You have to look at the use cases of a wide range of users Some may have
multiple vehicle and want to track expenses separately for each vehicle for
example. being able to name the accounts the same for each vehicleis a great
benefit They would want be be able to create 2 or more subaccounts named fuel
each undera placeholder for the specific vehicle. Some may have accounts tagged
with a customer's name. Having to have unique names for each account at the leaf
level would likely create difficulties across the board. The path down the
account tree gives you the necessary  level of visual uniqeness and the GUID
assigned to each account is unique so there is no problem with uniquely
identifying a special account.

 What is necessary to implement what David T desires and what appears to have
been the default behaviouris for there to be a pointer to the unique guid of the
imbalance account for each currency in use stored when it is first created and
if GnuCash requires an Imbalance account it searches those pointers before
creating a new one. That way it doesnt matter where the account sits in the  CoA
heirarchy (accounts are not stored internally in a tree structure but are just a
serial linked  lists of data objects with parent and child pointers) so it can
be moved around with impunity and because there is a special pointer to its
guid, located quickly without a tree search.

Since it appears to have been introducedin the changes from 4.4 to 4.5 it should
not be too hard to track down. It is most likely introduced when changes were
made to the code for an unrelated reason. I think David T raised a bug report
and if not he should as that will put it on the radar to be looked at. The
discussion here is useful though as it highlights that a lot of us use Gnucash
in sometimes subtly different ways and sometimes not so subtly different ways
and it gives whoever does the programming information which can help to keep
GnuCash flexible

At the moment, I simply do as Michael Hendry suggested and delete the Imbalance
accounts once I have fixed any problems when they do occur. My accounts in
retirement are pretty simple though and I don't have a large number of errors.

On Wed, 2021-06-02 at 16:05 -0500, David Carlson wrote:
> Since you bring up the concept of reserved names, perhaps any account name
> that Gnucash creates probably should be a reserved name so the entire
> argument about creating accounts with the same name should be moot.  Then
> the previous behavior of allowing it to be moved would not be an issue.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:56 PM David Carlson 
> wrote:
> 
> > As David pointed out in his very first post of the other thread. GnuCash
> > has removed an existing function without warning.  Some of us use it and
> > want it back.
> > 
> > On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:40 PM Michael or Penny Novack <
> > stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 6/2/2021 2:27 PM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
> > > > The discussion about the location of Imbalance-XXX accounts is under a
> > > different thread, and I explained there my reasons for my account
> > > structure
> > > and Gnucash's previous implementation. Suffice to say that I'd rather keep
> > > Imbalance-USD around (since it will get created all over again), but put
> > > it
> > > in the location of MY choosing.
> > > 
> > > The "location" of an account is, in effect, part of its name, its full
> > > name. You could have half a dozen accounts with the "name" Imbalance as
> > > long as each was a different leaf of the tree (location in the CoA). How
> > > do you propose gnucash to "know" WHICH of these you intend to be used as
> > > the account to use for imbalance situations?
> > > 
> > > What you are asking form in effect, is the ability to specify an account
> > > to be used for the purpose.
> > > 
> > > I know you are thinking, just look for a leaf with name Imbalance. That
> > > could work IF gnucash reserved the name, disallowed you creating an
> > > account with that name. Account names in gnucash do NOT have to be
> > > unique/distinct.  Is it the case that in your own books you do not have
> > > accounts with the same "name" but different leaves of the tree so you
> > > don't see the problem. The developers put Imbalance at the top level of
> > > the tree precisely because that would be unique (could only be one).
> > > 
> > > Michael D Novack
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ___
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> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > David Carlson
> > 
> 
> 
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[D. via gnucash-user]

Yeah,  I actually don't care about the account existing; it's easy enough to 
correct the problems, which, quite frankly, are more trouble to avoid than fix. 
So, I'm happy just to let it be there, which cuts down on my having to alter my 
CoA. 

And as I have noted time and time and time again in this thread, my quibble is 
with the change in GnuCash behavior with version 4.5. No one has explained why 
this change has occurred, let alone explain to me what I might do, short of 
downgrading and staying forevermore on 4.4, to get this fixed. 

David


 Original Message 
From: "Stephen M. Butler" 
Sent: Wed Jun 02 17:23:54 EDT 2021
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

On 6/2/21 11:22 AM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
> Why delete an account that's only going to get created again?

1.  So you know when something needs attention.
2.  Make you more careful to not let the account be created in the first 
place.

--Steve
>
>
>  Original Message 
> From: Michael Hendry 
> Sent: Wed Jun 02 12:25:39 EDT 2021
> To: Peter West 
> Cc: GnuCash users group 
> Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS
>
>> On 2 Jun 2021, at 02:44, Peter West  wrote:
>>
>> I’m a fairly naive user, but I find the Imbalance-XXX and Orphan-XXX 
>> accounts (at top level in my CoA) extremely useful, and I understand why 
>> they are there. If I ever see a balance, I know I have to fix something, 
>> which is a good reason to have them at the top. I can’t comment on any 
>> changes that might have occurred in the behaviour of these accounts 
>> recently. However, in respect of the tidiness of the CoA, one possible 
>> solution is to create a special case for these accounts, such that they only 
>> display in the CoA listing when they have a non-zero balance.
>>
>> Peter
>
> Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when you’ve sorted 
> out the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll be created automatically 
> if required.
>
> Michael
>
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[John Morris]

Yes, David, That is why YOU would want the imbalance account functionality. 
However, other people work differently. Some people have no need for that 
functionality and don’t like the creation of extra unneeded accounts. It would 
be nice if GnuCash worked well for everyone instead of forcing everyone to work 
the way one person likes to work.

John

> On Jun 2, 2021, at 5:36 PM, David Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Stephen,
> 
> There have been several posts explaining why it can be desirable to allow
> postponement of the completion of a balanced transaction because not all
> the details are known but the core of the transaction should not be
> postponed into oblivion.

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David Carlson]

Stephen,

There have been several posts explaining why it can be desirable to allow
postponement of the completion of a balanced transaction because not all
the details are known but the core of the transaction should not be
postponed into oblivion.

On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 4:24 PM Stephen M. Butler <
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/2/21 11:22 AM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
> > Why delete an account that's only going to get created again?
>
> 1.  So you know when something needs attention.
> 2.  Make you more careful to not let the account be created in the first
> place.
>
> --Steve
> >
> >
> >  Original Message 
> > From: Michael Hendry 
> > Sent: Wed Jun 02 12:25:39 EDT 2021
> > To: Peter West 
> > Cc: GnuCash users group 
> > Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST
> CURIOUS
> >
> >> On 2 Jun 2021, at 02:44, Peter West  wrote:
> >>
> >> I’m a fairly naive user, but I find the Imbalance-XXX and Orphan-XXX
> accounts (at top level in my CoA) extremely useful, and I understand why
> they are there. If I ever see a balance, I know I have to fix something,
> which is a good reason to have them at the top. I can’t comment on any
> changes that might have occurred in the behaviour of these accounts
> recently. However, in respect of the tidiness of the CoA, one possible
> solution is to create a special case for these accounts, such that they
> only display in the CoA listing when they have a non-zero balance.
> >>
> >> Peter
> >
> > Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when you’ve
> sorted out the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll be created
> automatically if required.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > ___
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> --
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> stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com
> kg...@arrl.net
> 253-350-0166
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Stephen M. Butler]

On 6/2/21 11:22 AM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:

Why delete an account that's only going to get created again?


1.  So you know when something needs attention.
2.  Make you more careful to not let the account be created in the first 
place.


--Steve



 Original Message 
From: Michael Hendry 
Sent: Wed Jun 02 12:25:39 EDT 2021
To: Peter West 
Cc: GnuCash users group 
Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS


On 2 Jun 2021, at 02:44, Peter West  wrote:

I’m a fairly naive user, but I find the Imbalance-XXX and Orphan-XXX accounts 
(at top level in my CoA) extremely useful, and I understand why they are there. 
If I ever see a balance, I know I have to fix something, which is a good reason 
to have them at the top. I can’t comment on any changes that might have 
occurred in the behaviour of these accounts recently. However, in respect of 
the tidiness of the CoA, one possible solution is to create a special case for 
these accounts, such that they only display in the CoA listing when they have a 
non-zero balance.

Peter


Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when you’ve sorted out 
the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll be created automatically if 
required.

Michael

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Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com
kg...@arrl.net
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---
GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[D. via gnucash-user]

Michael, 

I expect gnucash should know the "full name" of the imbalance account BECAUSE 
THAT'S WHAT IT DID BEFORE 4.5. 

David


 Original Message 
From: Michael or Penny Novack 
Sent: Wed Jun 02 16:39:05 EDT 2021
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

On 6/2/2021 2:27 PM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
> The discussion about the location of Imbalance-XXX accounts is under a 
> different thread, and I explained there my reasons for my account structure 
> and Gnucash's previous implementation. Suffice to say that I'd rather keep 
> Imbalance-USD around (since it will get created all over again), but put it 
> in the location of MY choosing.

The "location" of an account is, in effect, part of its name, its full 
name. You could have half a dozen accounts with the "name" Imbalance as 
long as each was a different leaf of the tree (location in the CoA). How 
do you propose gnucash to "know" WHICH of these you intend to be used as 
the account to use for imbalance situations?

What you are asking form in effect, is the ability to specify an account 
to be used for the purpose.

I know you are thinking, just look for a leaf with name Imbalance. That 
could work IF gnucash reserved the name, disallowed you creating an 
account with that name. Account names in gnucash do NOT have to be 
unique/distinct.  Is it the case that in your own books you do not have 
accounts with the same "name" but different leaves of the tree so you 
don't see the problem. The developers put Imbalance at the top level of 
the tree precisely because that would be unique (could only be one).

Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David Carlson]

Since you bring up the concept of reserved names, perhaps any account name
that Gnucash creates probably should be a reserved name so the entire
argument about creating accounts with the same name should be moot.  Then
the previous behavior of allowing it to be moved would not be an issue.

On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:56 PM David Carlson 
wrote:

> As David pointed out in his very first post of the other thread. GnuCash
> has removed an existing function without warning.  Some of us use it and
> want it back.
>
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:40 PM Michael or Penny Novack <
> stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/2/2021 2:27 PM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
>> > The discussion about the location of Imbalance-XXX accounts is under a
>> different thread, and I explained there my reasons for my account structure
>> and Gnucash's previous implementation. Suffice to say that I'd rather keep
>> Imbalance-USD around (since it will get created all over again), but put it
>> in the location of MY choosing.
>>
>> The "location" of an account is, in effect, part of its name, its full
>> name. You could have half a dozen accounts with the "name" Imbalance as
>> long as each was a different leaf of the tree (location in the CoA). How
>> do you propose gnucash to "know" WHICH of these you intend to be used as
>> the account to use for imbalance situations?
>>
>> What you are asking form in effect, is the ability to specify an account
>> to be used for the purpose.
>>
>> I know you are thinking, just look for a leaf with name Imbalance. That
>> could work IF gnucash reserved the name, disallowed you creating an
>> account with that name. Account names in gnucash do NOT have to be
>> unique/distinct.  Is it the case that in your own books you do not have
>> accounts with the same "name" but different leaves of the tree so you
>> don't see the problem. The developers put Imbalance at the top level of
>> the tree precisely because that would be unique (could only be one).
>>
>> Michael D Novack
>>
>>
>> ___
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>
> --
> David Carlson
>


-- 
David Carlson
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David Carlson]

As David pointed out in his very first post of the other thread. GnuCash
has removed an existing function without warning.  Some of us use it and
want it back.

On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:40 PM Michael or Penny Novack <
stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 6/2/2021 2:27 PM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
> > The discussion about the location of Imbalance-XXX accounts is under a
> different thread, and I explained there my reasons for my account structure
> and Gnucash's previous implementation. Suffice to say that I'd rather keep
> Imbalance-USD around (since it will get created all over again), but put it
> in the location of MY choosing.
>
> The "location" of an account is, in effect, part of its name, its full
> name. You could have half a dozen accounts with the "name" Imbalance as
> long as each was a different leaf of the tree (location in the CoA). How
> do you propose gnucash to "know" WHICH of these you intend to be used as
> the account to use for imbalance situations?
>
> What you are asking form in effect, is the ability to specify an account
> to be used for the purpose.
>
> I know you are thinking, just look for a leaf with name Imbalance. That
> could work IF gnucash reserved the name, disallowed you creating an
> account with that name. Account names in gnucash do NOT have to be
> unique/distinct.  Is it the case that in your own books you do not have
> accounts with the same "name" but different leaves of the tree so you
> don't see the problem. The developers put Imbalance at the top level of
> the tree precisely because that would be unique (could only be one).
>
> Michael D Novack
>
>
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 6/2/2021 2:27 PM, D. via gnucash-user wrote:

The discussion about the location of Imbalance-XXX accounts is under a 
different thread, and I explained there my reasons for my account structure and 
Gnucash's previous implementation. Suffice to say that I'd rather keep 
Imbalance-USD around (since it will get created all over again), but put it in 
the location of MY choosing.


The "location" of an account is, in effect, part of its name, its full 
name. You could have half a dozen accounts with the "name" Imbalance as 
long as each was a different leaf of the tree (location in the CoA). How 
do you propose gnucash to "know" WHICH of these you intend to be used as 
the account to use for imbalance situations?


What you are asking form in effect, is the ability to specify an account 
to be used for the purpose.


I know you are thinking, just look for a leaf with name Imbalance. That 
could work IF gnucash reserved the name, disallowed you creating an 
account with that name. Account names in gnucash do NOT have to be 
unique/distinct.  Is it the case that in your own books you do not have 
accounts with the same "name" but different leaves of the tree so you 
don't see the problem. The developers put Imbalance at the top level of 
the tree precisely because that would be unique (could only be one).


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[D. via gnucash-user]

The discussion about the location of Imbalance-XXX accounts is under a 
different thread, and I explained there my reasons for my account structure and 
Gnucash's previous implementation. Suffice to say that I'd rather keep 
Imbalance-USD around (since it will get created all over again), but put it in 
the location of MY choosing. 


 Original Message 
From: "w...@theprescotts.com" 
Sent: Wed Jun 02 13:37:34 EDT 2021
To: GnuCash Users 
Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

I am just an uninterested observer of this discussion of the location of the 
Imbalance account(s). It has never bothered me. But Michael's suggestion seems 
like a good one for those that are bothered by it. Then if the account appears, 
you know there are some unbalanced transactions. If there are none, you don't 
have to look at the account on the list.

Will

On 2021 Jun 2, at 06-02 11:25:39, Michael Hendry  
wrote:

Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when you’ve sorted out 
the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll be created automatically if 
required.

Michael

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[D. via gnucash-user]

Why delete an account that's only going to get created again? 


 Original Message 
From: Michael Hendry 
Sent: Wed Jun 02 12:25:39 EDT 2021
To: Peter West 
Cc: GnuCash users group 
Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

> On 2 Jun 2021, at 02:44, Peter West  wrote:
> 
> I’m a fairly naive user, but I find the Imbalance-XXX and Orphan-XXX accounts 
> (at top level in my CoA) extremely useful, and I understand why they are 
> there. If I ever see a balance, I know I have to fix something, which is a 
> good reason to have them at the top. I can’t comment on any changes that 
> might have occurred in the behaviour of these accounts recently. However, in 
> respect of the tidiness of the CoA, one possible solution is to create a 
> special case for these accounts, such that they only display in the CoA 
> listing when they have a non-zero balance.
> 
> Peter


Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when you’ve sorted out 
the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll be created automatically if 
required.

Michael

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[w...@theprescotts.com]

I am just an uninterested observer of this discussion of the location of the 
Imbalance account(s). It has never bothered me. But Michael's suggestion seems 
like a good one for those that are bothered by it. Then if the account appears, 
you know there are some unbalanced transactions. If there are none, you don't 
have to look at the account on the list.

Will

On 2021 Jun 2, at 06-02 11:25:39, Michael Hendry  
wrote:

Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when you’ve sorted out 
the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll be created automatically if 
required.

Michael

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Michael Hendry]

> On 2 Jun 2021, at 02:44, Peter West  wrote:
> 
> I’m a fairly naive user, but I find the Imbalance-XXX and Orphan-XXX accounts 
> (at top level in my CoA) extremely useful, and I understand why they are 
> there. If I ever see a balance, I know I have to fix something, which is a 
> good reason to have them at the top. I can’t comment on any changes that 
> might have occurred in the behaviour of these accounts recently. However, in 
> respect of the tidiness of the CoA, one possible solution is to create a 
> special case for these accounts, such that they only display in the CoA 
> listing when they have a non-zero balance.
> 
> Peter


Why not simply delete the Imbalance and Orphan accounts when you’ve sorted out 
the problem and zeroed their contents - they’ll be created automatically if 
required.

Michael

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Peter West]

That’s a global setting though.

Peter
—
Peter West
p...@ehealth.id.au
“…unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will 
never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

> On 2 Jun 2021, at 12:52 pm, D. via gnucash-user  
> wrote:
> 
> Of course, you can suppress zero balance accounts in the View menu, if that's 
> your preference...
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> From: David Cousens 
> Sent: Tue Jun 01 18:46:57 EDT 2021
> To: John Morris , Gnucash Users 
> 
> Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS
> 
> John,
> 
> I agree. There is a case for not displaying the Imbalance accounts in the CoA
> tab if there are no entries to them, i.e. they are zero balance. This is an
> option in reports but not in the account tab. They can of course be left in 
> the
> CoA and hidden in the Account tab by editing the account and setting the 
> hidden
> flag but they then remain hidden even when new entries to them are created.
> 
> I would go further and hide them totally if the balance in them was zero and
> change either the background or the font color to a bright red or even 
> flashing
> red( that would clearly need to be optional) to  highlight them when they are
> present with a non-zero balance. 
> 
> Their usefulness to indicate incorrect entries would be enhanced if they are
> hidden when the balance is zero as their presence whether highlighted or not
> indicates an error.  Similarly with the orphan transactions created when an
> account with existing transactions to it has been deleted without moving the
> transactions to another account.
> 
> I would take a look at it but I am currently heavily involved in a physics
> project programming exercise at the moment. The change in behaviour from the
> previous version probably needs to be tracked down and, where possible fixed
> first, before adding any further enhancements to minimize conflicting changes.
> 
> David Cousens
> 
> On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 18:10 -0400, John Morris wrote:
>>> Actually you are given the opportunity to fix it during entry. When the
>>> Imbalance account appears in a transaction in the account column, all you
>>> have to do is click on it in the Account column and assign the correct
>>> account from the drop down list, before closing (pressing Enter) the
>>> transaction.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, by then the damage is already done. The Imbalance account has
>> been created and I must go and delete it yet again. I don’t like extra
>> accounts cluttering up my carefully designed CoA.
>> 
>> Best,
>> John
>> 
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[D. via gnucash-user]

Of course, you can suppress zero balance accounts in the View menu, if that's 
your preference...


 Original Message 
From: David Cousens 
Sent: Tue Jun 01 18:46:57 EDT 2021
To: John Morris , Gnucash Users 
Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

John,

I agree. There is a case for not displaying the Imbalance accounts in the CoA
tab if there are no entries to them, i.e. they are zero balance. This is an
option in reports but not in the account tab. They can of course be left in the
CoA and hidden in the Account tab by editing the account and setting the hidden
flag but they then remain hidden even when new entries to them are created.

I would go further and hide them totally if the balance in them was zero and
change either the background or the font color to a bright red or even flashing
red( that would clearly need to be optional) to  highlight them when they are
present with a non-zero balance. 

Their usefulness to indicate incorrect entries would be enhanced if they are
hidden when the balance is zero as their presence whether highlighted or not
indicates an error.  Similarly with the orphan transactions created when an
account with existing transactions to it has been deleted without moving the
transactions to another account.

I would take a look at it but I am currently heavily involved in a physics
project programming exercise at the moment. The change in behaviour from the
previous version probably needs to be tracked down and, where possible fixed
first, before adding any further enhancements to minimize conflicting changes.

David Cousens

On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 18:10 -0400, John Morris wrote:
> > Actually you are given the opportunity to fix it during entry. When the
> > Imbalance account appears in a transaction in the account column, all you
> > have to do is click on it in the Account column and assign the correct
> > account from the drop down list, before closing (pressing Enter) the
> > transaction.
> 
> Unfortunately, by then the damage is already done. The Imbalance account has
> been created and I must go and delete it yet again. I don’t like extra
> accounts cluttering up my carefully designed CoA.
> 
> Best,
> John
> 
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Peter West]

I’m a fairly naive user, but I find the Imbalance-XXX and Orphan-XXX accounts 
(at top level in my CoA) extremely useful, and I understand why they are there. 
If I ever see a balance, I know I have to fix something, which is a good reason 
to have them at the top. I can’t comment on any changes that might have 
occurred in the behaviour of these accounts recently. However, in respect of 
the tidiness of the CoA, one possible solution is to create a special case for 
these accounts, such that they only display in the CoA listing when they have a 
non-zero balance.

Peter
—
Peter West
p...@ehealth.id.au
“…unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will 
never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

> On 2 Jun 2021, at 11:22 am, Derek Atkins  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, June 1, 2021 9:15 pm, Liz Dodd wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 10:23:07 -0400
>> "D. via gnucash-user"  wrote:
>> 
>>> The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in
>>> GnuCash, and you can find discussions about it in the lists over the
>>> years.
>>> 
>>> Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a
>>> user to enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the
>>> balancing entry in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically
>>> speaking), or should the program nag the user to balance the
>>> transaction every time? Gnucash choose the former many years ago, and
>>> has stuck with that model since.
>> 
>> It is a problem when you are not aware of how to enter transactions,
>> and press the Enter key, probably by habit.
>> Nevertheless I can still find myself with Imbalance entries although I
>> have been using Gnucash a long time.
> 
> Most of my Imbalance entries are a result of rounding errors in the
> scheduled transaction subsystem.  I'll get an extra $0.01 that gets put
> into Imbalance, until I get the statement and manually adjust the
> transaction.
> 
> In the steady-state, Imbalance account is (and should remain) empty.
> 
>> Liz
> 
>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> 
> -derek
> 
> -- 
>   Derek Atkins 617-623-3745
>   de...@ihtfp.com  www.ihtfp.com 
> 
>   Computer and Internet Security Consultant
> 
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Derek Atkins]

On Tue, June 1, 2021 9:15 pm, Liz Dodd wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 10:23:07 -0400
> "D. via gnucash-user"  wrote:
>
>> The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in
>> GnuCash, and you can find discussions about it in the lists over the
>> years.
>>
>> Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a
>> user to enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the
>> balancing entry in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically
>> speaking), or should the program nag the user to balance the
>> transaction every time? Gnucash choose the former many years ago, and
>> has stuck with that model since.
>
> It is a problem when you are not aware of how to enter transactions,
> and press the Enter key, probably by habit.
> Nevertheless I can still find myself with Imbalance entries although I
> have been using Gnucash a long time.

Most of my Imbalance entries are a result of rounding errors in the
scheduled transaction subsystem.  I'll get an extra $0.01 that gets put
into Imbalance, until I get the statement and manually adjust the
transaction.

In the steady-state, Imbalance account is (and should remain) empty.

> Liz

> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

-derek

-- 
   Derek Atkins 617-623-3745
   de...@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com
   Computer and Internet Security Consultant

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Liz Dodd]

On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 10:23:07 -0400
"D. via gnucash-user"  wrote:

> The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in
> GnuCash, and you can find discussions about it in the lists over the
> years. 
> 
> Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a
> user to enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the
> balancing entry in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically
> speaking), or should the program nag the user to balance the
> transaction every time? Gnucash choose the former many years ago, and
> has stuck with that model since. 

It is a problem when you are not aware of how to enter transactions,
and press the Enter key, probably by habit. 
Nevertheless I can still find myself with Imbalance entries although I
have been using Gnucash a long time.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[flywire]

Entering data for someone else is likely to produce a lot of /corner cases/
too.

This leads to insert/delete splits, which always causes me grief, and I have
to delete the imbalance line manually. Is my workflow wrong?



--
Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[John Morris]

Hi David,
> I agree. There is a case for not displaying the Imbalance accounts in the CoA 
> tab if there are no entries to them, i.e. they are zero balance. This is an 
> option in reports but not in the account tab. They can of course be left in 
> the CoA and hidden in the Account tab by editing the account and setting the 
> hidden flag but they then remain hidden even when new entries to them are 
> created.

  Yes, that is a large part of my complaint. Certainly, hiding the empty 
accounts would be an improvement since there is currently no developer time 
available to implement the full solution (a preference to stop the user in 
their tracks before the imbalanced transaction is finalized).

> I would go further and hide them totally if the balance in them was zero and 
> change either the background or the font color to a bright red or even 
> flashing red( that would clearly need to be optional) to  highlight them when 
> they are present with a non-zero balance.

  Yes, anything to draw the user’s attention to their presence would be helpful.

> Their usefulness to indicate incorrect entries would be enhanced if they are 
> hidden when the balance is zero as their presence whether highlighted or not 
> indicates an error.  Similarly with the orphan transactions created when an 
> account with existing transactions to it has been deleted without moving the 
> transactions to another account.

  Yes.

> I would take a look at it but I am currently heavily involved in a physics 
> project programming exercise at the moment. The change in behaviour from the 
> previous version probably needs to be tracked down and, where possible fixed 
> first, before adding any further enhancements to minimize conflicting changes.

  I understand being too busy to take on new projects. I also agree that fixing 
the more immediate and more significant problems in GnuCash is much more 
important the niceties of how the imbalanced transactions are handled.

Best,
John

> On Jun 1, 2021, at 6:46 PM, David Cousens  wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> I agree. There is a case for not displaying the Imbalance accounts in the CoA
> tab if there are no entries to them, i.e. they are zero balance. This is an
> option in reports but not in the account tab. They can of course be left in 
> the
> CoA and hidden in the Account tab by editing the account and setting the 
> hidden
> flag but they then remain hidden even when new entries to them are created.
> 
> I would go further and hide them totally if the balance in them was zero and
> change either the background or the font color to a bright red or even 
> flashing
> red( that would clearly need to be optional) to  highlight them when they are
> present with a non-zero balance. 
> 
> Their usefulness to indicate incorrect entries would be enhanced if they are
> hidden when the balance is zero as their presence whether highlighted or not
> indicates an error.  Similarly with the orphan transactions created when an
> account with existing transactions to it has been deleted without moving the
> transactions to another account.
> 
> I would take a look at it but I am currently heavily involved in a physics
> project programming exercise at the moment. The change in behaviour from the
> previous version probably needs to be tracked down and, where possible fixed
> first, before adding any further enhancements to minimize conflicting changes.
> 
> David Cousens
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David Cousens]

John,

I agree. There is a case for not displaying the Imbalance accounts in the CoA
tab if there are no entries to them, i.e. they are zero balance. This is an
option in reports but not in the account tab. They can of course be left in the
CoA and hidden in the Account tab by editing the account and setting the hidden
flag but they then remain hidden even when new entries to them are created.

I would go further and hide them totally if the balance in them was zero and
change either the background or the font color to a bright red or even flashing
red( that would clearly need to be optional) to  highlight them when they are
present with a non-zero balance. 

Their usefulness to indicate incorrect entries would be enhanced if they are
hidden when the balance is zero as their presence whether highlighted or not
indicates an error.  Similarly with the orphan transactions created when an
account with existing transactions to it has been deleted without moving the
transactions to another account.

I would take a look at it but I am currently heavily involved in a physics
project programming exercise at the moment. The change in behaviour from the
previous version probably needs to be tracked down and, where possible fixed
first, before adding any further enhancements to minimize conflicting changes.

David Cousens

On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 18:10 -0400, John Morris wrote:
> > Actually you are given the opportunity to fix it during entry. When the
> > Imbalance account appears in a transaction in the account column, all you
> > have to do is click on it in the Account column and assign the correct
> > account from the drop down list, before closing (pressing Enter) the
> > transaction.
> 
> Unfortunately, by then the damage is already done. The Imbalance account has
> been created and I must go and delete it yet again. I don’t like extra
> accounts cluttering up my carefully designed CoA.
> 
> Best,
> John
> 
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[John Morris]

> Actually you are given the opportunity to fix it during entry. When the 
> Imbalance account appears in a transaction in the account column, all you 
> have to do is click on it in the Account column and assign the correct 
> account from the drop down list, before closing (pressing Enter) the 
> transaction.

Unfortunately, by then the damage is already done. The Imbalance account has 
been created and I must go and delete it yet again. I don’t like extra accounts 
cluttering up my carefully designed CoA.

Best,
John

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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David Carlson]

I might add here that there are corner cases where it is very difficult to
quickly bring a transaction into balance, and sometimes it is necessary for
an accounting judgement needing to be made.
Many of these cases arise when something does not have a well defined
value, so an estimated value needs to be assigned, possibly by someone
other than the person entering the transaction.
Other times it is necessary to draw on calculations that cannot be made on
the fly, such as realized gains on security sales, which may need
cumulative values from multiple opening transactions, along with multiple
previous partial closing transactions and time intervals calculated as well.

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 4:35 PM David Cousens 
wrote:

> John,
>
> Actually you are given the opportunity to fix it during entry. When the
> Imbalance account appears in a transaction in the account column, all you
> have
> to do is click on it in the Account column and assign the correct account
> from
> the drop down list, before closing (pressing Enter) the transaction.
>
> In two split transactions GnuCash will assign the amount of the entry in
> the
> first split to the second split automatically and if you select a valid
> transfer
> account no imbalance will occur. If you don't select a valid account or
> alter
> the amount when creating a transaction with 3 or more splits, the
> imbalance can
> be created.
>
> As Michael indicated the other common scenario is when the target account
> does
> not exist and has not been created before entry.
> David Cousens
> (yet another David)
>
> On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 11:07 -0400, John Morris wrote:
> > Given the extremely long history of this question with many good people
> > expressing good reasons on both sides of the debate, I would have
> expected the
> > developers to give the user the choice. There should be a switch in the
> > preferences that allows the user to decide if the necessary extra
> accounts
> > will be created as needed to address an imbalance or the user will be
> forced
> > to correct the imbalance before completing the transaction. Personally, I
> > would choose the latter, but I am not allowed that freedom with GnuCash.
> >
> > John
> >
> > > The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in GnuCash,
> and
> > > you can find discussions about it in the lists over the years.
> > >
> > > Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a
> user to
> > > enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the balancing
> entry
> > > in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically speaking), or should the
> > > program nag the user to balance the transaction every time? Gnucash
> choose
> > > the former many years ago, and has stuck with that model since.
> > >
> > > David
> > ___
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[David Cousens]

John,

Actually you are given the opportunity to fix it during entry. When the
Imbalance account appears in a transaction in the account column, all you have
to do is click on it in the Account column and assign the correct account from
the drop down list, before closing (pressing Enter) the transaction.

In two split transactions GnuCash will assign the amount of the entry in the
first split to the second split automatically and if you select a valid transfer
account no imbalance will occur. If you don't select a valid account or alter
the amount when creating a transaction with 3 or more splits, the imbalance can
be created.

As Michael indicated the other common scenario is when the target account does
not exist and has not been created before entry.
David Cousens
(yet another David)

On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 11:07 -0400, John Morris wrote:
> Given the extremely long history of this question with many good people
> expressing good reasons on both sides of the debate, I would have expected the
> developers to give the user the choice. There should be a switch in the
> preferences that allows the user to decide if the necessary extra accounts
> will be created as needed to address an imbalance or the user will be forced
> to correct the imbalance before completing the transaction. Personally, I
> would choose the latter, but I am not allowed that freedom with GnuCash.
> 
> John
> 
> > The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in GnuCash, and
> > you can find discussions about it in the lists over the years.
> > 
> > Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a user to
> > enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the balancing entry
> > in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically speaking), or should the
> > program nag the user to balance the transaction every time? Gnucash choose
> > the former many years ago, and has stuck with that model since.
> > 
> > David
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[DaveC49]

Laura,

The reason Imbalance entries exist is that it is a fundamental principle in
double entry accounting that the sum of the debits and credits to the
various accounts that make up a transaction must be zero.

The Imbalance results if a user creates and saves a transaction in which
this is not true. GNuCash tries to force your hand on this. You will notice
that if you create a transaction in which the sum of the debits and credits
is not zero, GnuCash will open a new line with an amount which will balance
that sum with no account selected in the account column. If you select an
account to assign that imbalance to, then the transaction is then balanced.
If you do not and save the transaction without specifically assigning an
account to it, GnuCash will assign the amount by which the transaction is
unbalanced to an Imbalance account in the currency of the accounts. If the
transaction involves more than one currency it will be in the currency which
is imbalanced in the transaction.

The value of the Imbalance account is that it allows you to quickly identify
transactions in which the user has incorrectly entered  data. There should
be no entries in any Imbalance account in any currency if your books are are
correctly balanced. Any transaction which turns up in an Imbalance account
NEEDS to be corrected and when it is corrected the Imbalance account balance
goes to 0 which it should always be if all entries are correct.
The following screen shot show creating an imbalance transaction and its
effect
 
 
 
 
 

The debate is about where the Imbalance accounts should be located within
the chart of accounts and whether the user can move them to a designated
location and have theImbalance accounts created there in future. 

My personal preference would be that the Imbalance accounts only appear in
the Accounts Tab when there is an unbalanced entry in the accounts and that
they should be hidden/removed from the tab when the imbalance is corrected.
I would flag them further by changing the color of the text or background to
red in the accounts tab to indicate that this is an error state which should
be corrected.





--
Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[D via gnucash-user]

Two reasons:
1- the dev team tries to minimize stored settings, and
2- no one has written the code. 

On Jun 1, 2021, 11:56, at 11:56, s310...@gmail.com wrote:
>hi,
>why not make it configurable (either nag or create a dummy
>account/entry)
>as a settings option?
>
>Shay
>
>On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 5:30 PM  wrote:
>
>> David, thank you for taking the time to fill me in the thought
>process.
>> Laura
>>
>> - Original message -
>> From: "D." mailto:sunfish62%40yahoo.com>>
>> To: men...@fastmail.fm <mailto:menace%40fastmail.fm>
>> Cc: Gnucash Users > gnucash-user%40gnucash.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST
>CURIOUS
>> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 2021 9:23 AM
>>
>> Laura,
>>
>> Welcome to gnucash.
>>
>> The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in
>GnuCash, and
>> you can find discussions about it in the lists over the years.
>>
>> Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a
>user
>> to enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the
>balancing
>> entry in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically speaking), or
>should
>> the program nag the user to balance the transaction every time?
>Gnucash
>> choose the former many years ago, and has stuck with that model
>since.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> ___
>> gnucash-user mailing list
>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
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>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
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>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>>
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[s310310]

hi,
why not make it configurable (either nag or create a dummy account/entry)
as a settings option?

Shay

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 5:30 PM  wrote:

> David, thank you for taking the time to fill me in the thought process.
> Laura
>
> - Original message -
> From: "D." mailto:sunfish62%40yahoo.com>>
> To: men...@fastmail.fm <mailto:menace%40fastmail.fm>
> Cc: Gnucash Users  gnucash-user%40gnucash.org>>
> Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS
> Date: Tuesday, June 01, 2021 9:23 AM
>
> Laura,
>
> Welcome to gnucash.
>
> The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in GnuCash, and
> you can find discussions about it in the lists over the years.
>
> Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a user
> to enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the balancing
> entry in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically speaking), or should
> the program nag the user to balance the transaction every time? Gnucash
> choose the former many years ago, and has stuck with that model since.
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[John Morris]

Given the extremely long history of this question with many good people 
expressing good reasons on both sides of the debate, I would have expected the 
developers to give the user the choice. There should be a switch in the 
preferences that allows the user to decide if the necessary extra accounts will 
be created as needed to address an imbalance or the user will be forced to 
correct the imbalance before completing the transaction. Personally, I would 
choose the latter, but I am not allowed that freedom with GnuCash.

John

> The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in GnuCash, and 
> you can find discussions about it in the lists over the years.
> 
> Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a user to 
> enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the balancing entry 
> in a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically speaking), or should the 
> program nag the user to balance the transaction every time? Gnucash choose 
> the former many years ago, and has stuck with that model since.
> 
> David
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Michael or Penny Novack]

As I've been reading the discussion about the imbalance account, it occurred to 
me to ask why GnuCash allows entries that are out of balance?  In theory and 
practice, we should not have entries that don't balance...credits should equal 
debits...and if they don't, we have an error in the entry.  And not that I 
would say QuickBooks is a work of art, but it doesn't allow one to make an 
entry that doesn't balance.  In other words, it forces the user to at least 
consciously assign an imbalance to an account (either an already existing one 
or a new one.


<< wearing my old "senior business analyst" hat for a moment >>

Work flow?

There are two very different sorts of "out of balance" transactions. One 
sort (the least interesting) is when in a split, had a remnant not 
assigned. And this could be "disallowed" as you suggest.


The more interesting sort is "the appropriate account does not yet 
exist". Sometimes that would be a simple matter of "create new account" 
and this action could be forced within entering the transaction. BUT, it 
might not be just a simple matter, because once this account is created 
it might imply a split of an existing account*. And that you would not 
want to do in the middle of entering a transaction. Much better to allow 
the transaction to complete (using Imbalance) letting you complete 
entering this and the other transactions you were entering, then address 
the "messy" task of splitting the existing account, and finally dealing 
with the Imbalance.


The solution of "put in in some wrong account" not such a good idea 
unless you wrote a note to yourself about fixing later. You would have 
no easy way to find this to fix (as you do when stuck into Imbalance 
--ANYTHING left in Imbalance needs to be addressed so easy to find).


Michael

* The not quite fitting account contains two sorts of transactions that 
were closely enough related to be placed into the same account as long 
as no better fitting account existed for one of those sorts. But once 
the new account is created to exactly fit the new transaction, it 
becomes clear that one of those sorts is a MUCH better fit for this new 
account. Might involve moving quite a few transactions.


   Now USUALLY I manage to spot this in advance. I see that a 
transaction has occurred that will make me want to change the CoA in 
this way and make that change before beginning to enter transactions. 
Certainly true for my personal books but even then sometimes I don;t 
spot in advance. But were I just the bookkeeper for an organization, not 
(also) the treasurer, I'd need to talk that over with the Treasurer to 
get instructed what change to make in the CoA or where to stick this 
amount even if no change to the CoA (where best fits). So letting me 
finish my work leaving the amount temporarily in Imbalance. It can't get 
forgotten there as sticks out like a sore thumb. Note even the "simple" 
case can't be solved by "simply create new account" when you need 
authorization to do that. Even as Treasurer, I might want to defer the 
decision to the next meeting of the Board of Directors. Or, in the case 
of one of the organizations, when doing reimbursements might not fully 
understand one or more of the receipts so  needing to check with the 
person << but knowing the person's financial situation, not want to hold 
up sending the reimbursement check >>


PS -- I have never encountered the "Orphan" account used but I suspect 
from a messed up account deletion.



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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[menace]

David, thank you for taking the time to fill me in the thought process.  Laura

- Original message -
From: "D." mailto:sunfish62%40yahoo.com>>
To: men...@fastmail.fm <mailto:menace%40fastmail.fm>
Cc: Gnucash Users mailto:gnucash-user%40gnucash.org>>
Subject: Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS
Date: Tuesday, June 01, 2021 9:23 AM

Laura,

Welcome to gnucash.

The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in GnuCash, and you 
can find discussions about it in the lists over the years.

Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a user to 
enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the balancing entry in 
a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically speaking), or should the program nag 
the user to balance the transaction every time? Gnucash choose the former many 
years ago, and has stuck with that model since.

David


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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[D. via gnucash-user]

Laura, 

Welcome to gnucash. 

The question about imbalance entries goes back a long ways in GnuCash, and you 
can find discussions about it in the lists over the years. 

Essentially, the debate boils down to this: is it better to allow a user to 
enter an imbalanced transaction and automatically create the balancing entry in 
a dummy account (Imbalance-XXX generically speaking), or should the program nag 
the user to balance the transaction every time? Gnucash choose the former many 
years ago, and has stuck with that model since. 

David


 Original Message 
From: men...@fastmail.fm
Sent: Tue Jun 01 10:04:09 EDT 2021
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

Michael wrote 

" automatically-generated entries for Imbalance-USD would be placed in my 
existing Imbalance-USD account, which is located under Special Accounts. "

First, thank you to the developers of GnuCash.  I started using it a couple of 
months ago to replace Quicken because it drove me nuts with its constant 
nagging to update to a new version, and because I could not get the Quicken 
version I owned to work on my Windows 10 computers. It still works on my Win 7 
computer, but that's it.   I've been very happy with GnuCash - you all have 
done a very nice job.  I also use QuickBooks for my business accounting and may 
end up switching those over to GnuCash at some point.

As I've been reading the discussion about the imbalance account, it occurred to 
me to ask why GnuCash allows entries that are out of balance?  In theory and 
practice, we should not have entries that don't balance...credits should equal 
debits...and if they don't, we have an error in the entry.  And not that I 
would say QuickBooks is a work of art, but it doesn't allow one to make an 
entry that doesn't balance.  In other words, it forces the user to at least 
consciously assign an imbalance to an account (either an already existing one 
or a new one.  This allows one to fudge the entry if one doesn't know the 
answer in that moment and then go find out the answer and fix the entry later). 
 But, the user is "on notice" that there was a problem with the entry.

As the discussion about the Imbalance account highlights, GnuCash does allow an 
out of balance entry.  This automatic action may easily be missed if one 
doesn't quickly the develop the habit of checking the Imbalance account.  

I'm simply curious, why doesn't GnuCash prevent these entries to begin with?

Thank you for your time to answer in advance, Laura
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Re: [GNC] WHY ARE THERE "IMBALANCE ENTRIES" AT ALL ?? JUST CURIOUS

[Glenn Fowler]

My opinion is that the imbalance *IS* the error and it allows you to easily
see and correct which transactions need to be moved. I think this is
preferred instead of a hard error or not allowing a transaction to be
entered.

On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 10:04 AM  wrote:

> Michael wrote
>
> " automatically-generated entries for Imbalance-USD would be placed in my
> existing Imbalance-USD account, which is located under Special Accounts. "
>
> First, thank you to the developers of GnuCash.  I started using it a
> couple of months ago to replace Quicken because it drove me nuts with its
> constant nagging to update to a new version, and because I could not get
> the Quicken version I owned to work on my Windows 10 computers. It still
> works on my Win 7 computer, but that's it.   I've been very happy with
> GnuCash - you all have done a very nice job.  I also use QuickBooks for my
> business accounting and may end up switching those over to GnuCash at some
> point.
>
> As I've been reading the discussion about the imbalance account, it
> occurred to me to ask why GnuCash allows entries that are out of balance?
> In theory and practice, we should not have entries that don't
> balance...credits should equal debits...and if they don't, we have an error
> in the entry.  And not that I would say QuickBooks is a work of art, but it
> doesn't allow one to make an entry that doesn't balance.  In other words,
> it forces the user to at least consciously assign an imbalance to an
> account (either an already existing one or a new one.  This allows one to
> fudge the entry if one doesn't know the answer in that moment and then go
> find out the answer and fix the entry later).  But, the user is "on notice"
> that there was a problem with the entry.
>
> As the discussion about the Imbalance account highlights, GnuCash does
> allow an out of balance entry.  This automatic action may easily be missed
> if one doesn't quickly the develop the habit of checking the Imbalance
> account.
>
> I'm simply curious, why doesn't GnuCash prevent these entries to begin
> with?
>
> Thank you for your time to answer in advance, Laura
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