Re: question to backend/gui guru...
Selon Philippe C.D. Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What are you actually trying to come up with? And what AppKit classes would you need exactly in your code? SDL already gives you a lot of this functionality you mention. So it might be easier to just use gnustep-base + SDL for what you have in mind? This is straight forward today, when I did it years ago I had to cleanup the SDL source first, removing all the variables called 'id' ;-) -Phil -- Philippe C.D. Robert http://www.nice.ch/~phip Philippe, Some of the classes i might use : (picked up from www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/Gui/Reference/) NSColor* NSCursor NSEvent NSFileWrapper NSFont*, NSGlyph* NSImage* NSGraphicsContext NSOpenGL* NSResponder NSScreen NSSound At least NSResponder and NSEvent will be very useful. Yes, I can do all this with SDL. But as i said i prefer reuse what i can and write code that may be easily reused in a full-gnustep apps. The SDL headers are quite clean : - one id in SDL_cdrom.h : i dont need it for the moment and i might wrap it easily - many more in SDL_openGL.h that mainly come from glext.h : i will use the real hearders but no glext (later?) Rgrds Xavier ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 2006-09-12 13:38:40 +0200 Gürkan Sengün [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, especially if it looks like something I am used to, say NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, Windows or Mac OS X. Please pretty please, don't make new themes, new looks, another we are gnome, we are cool, we are KDE, we are new, whatever new thing that is just ugly. You're absolutely right, however that is one of the major drawbacks for GNUstep -- that it DOESN'T look like KDE, GNOME or XFCE. Or should I say doesn't try to imitate Windows ??? Most people are USED to the Windows look and feel, they are NOT used (anymore) to the look of NeXT (or OSX for that matter). -- Chris ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Chris Vetter wrote: On 2006-09-12 13:38:40 +0200 Gürkan Sengün [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, especially if it looks like something I am used to, say NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, Windows or Mac OS X. Please pretty please, don't make new themes, new looks, another we are gnome, we are cool, we are KDE, we are new, whatever new thing that is just ugly. You're absolutely right, however that is one of the major drawbacks for GNUstep -- that it DOESN'T look like KDE, GNOME or XFCE. Or should I say doesn't try to imitate Windows ??? Most people are USED to the Windows look and feel, they are NOT used (anymore) to the look of NeXT (or OSX for that matter). Maybe we should win on brains/quality instead of looks... http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=inDepthNewsstoryID=2006-08-30T130311Z_01_PEK290182_RTRUKOC_0_US-CHINA-SURGERY.xml http://marshallbrain.com/discard3.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64857-2004May28.html ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 12, 2006, at 13:38, Gürkan Sengün wrote: Please pretty please, don't make new themes, new looks, another we are gnome, we are cool, we are KDE, we are new, whatever new thing that is just ugly. As mentioned by Chris this is indeed a major selling point of GNOME and KDE, they look like Windows. Eg GNOME Evolution is an extreme example being almost an exact replica of Outlook. Having a MacOS primary theme would certainly be great instead of a Windows like theme. Especially since this has a big potential to aquire in Cocoa developers. But then you'll most likely get letters from the Apple lawyers making that a no go ;-) Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
В Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:30:14 +0200, Chris Vetter написа: however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice for the GNU operating system... This is still more or less true -- with GNOME being steadily absorbed by the proponents of the Open Source Campaign and slowly, but permanently diverting from its initial goals, GNUstep remains as a backup variant. I don't think that such an advertisement should ever mention Windows or any other proprietary platform -- after all, support for these systems is a bonus, but not an essential goal. The purpose is to replace all non-free software completely, not to enhance it. I suspect this ad is for the Take Action section, so how about something like this: , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` FYI, I have write access for www.gnu.org so I can help if needed, once you agree on the wording and RMS acks it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 12, 2006, at 7:49 AM, Yavor Doganov wrote: I suspect this ad is for the Take Action section, so how about something like this: , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` Yes! This is pretty close to what I wanted to say as well. I'll ask RMS about it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
I happen to think that's completely wrong ... as I don't know of anyone who doesn't want GNUstep to become a desktop (in the sense of being opposed to it), and even if some people were opposed to it that doesn't mean they would be able to prevent it ... as there are certainly no such people among the core developers. My strong feeling is that most developers ideally want GNUstep to be an entire system! I don't mind a GNUstep desktop. but I would like that the GNUstep core (foundation and appKit) to remain independent! I You should be able to have the hability to run applications on top of windows or kde or gnome or even os x without the need of this desktop environment. All you need would be the gnustep core. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Am 12.09.2006 um 15:49 schrieb Yavor Doganov: В Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:30:14 +0200, Chris Vetter написа: however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice for the GNU operating system... This is still more or less true -- with GNOME being steadily absorbed by the proponents of the Open Source Campaign and slowly, but permanently diverting from its initial goals, GNUstep remains as a backup variant. I don't think that such an advertisement should ever mention Windows or any other proprietary platform -- after all, support for these systems is a bonus, but not an essential goal. The purpose is to replace all non-free software completely, not to enhance it. This is ideological thinking. But if you want to achieve an objective in practice you'll have to think practically and do practically things, like give something to get something (which is also an very good social behaviour). And it's the best if the something is actually something somebody needs and gets a benefit from. That something most Cocoa developers - e.g. the people that actually *use* some kind of OpenStep today - need would be some possibility to port their software to Windows. If we could offer that seamlessly we would gain a huge interest in that community without the need to convince people to use OpenStep in the first hand (e.g. explain to them why that obscure framework using an even more obscure language with ugly square brackets instead of just standard C++ or standard Java would make sense to them). Or to cut a long story short: If you want to make people to use your stuff you must offer them a purpose to do so (for instance I don't use a flat iron since I have mostly tees and sweaters). Cocoa developers have a huge need for a porting solution to windows (just listen to the discussions on cocoa-dev. If we could get them to use GNUstep for that, at least some of them will send in bug fixes and patches, that is for sure (/me points at Andreas Hoeschler here ;-)). Maybe the one or another would stick then. And as a surplus we also would get some more apps for GNUstep (even if some of those would be commercial ones). I suspect this ad is for the Take Action section, so how about something like this: , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` Just good will and appealing to it alone is not enough. Thats maybe makes you feel better but you won't reach a single target that way. FYI, I have write access for www.gnu.org so I can help if needed, once you agree on the wording and RMS acks it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote: This is ideological thinking. Free software is extremely ideological, political and social by nature. The ultimate goal of the GNU Project is to change the society. But if you want to achieve an objective in practice you'll have to think practically and do practically things, like give something to get something (which is also an very good social behaviour). We are pragmatic idealists, I'm sure you know that ;-) http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html And it's the best if the something is actually something somebody needs and gets a benefit from. That something most Cocoa developers - e.g. the people that actually *use* some kind of OpenStep today - need would be some possibility to port their software to Windows. If we could offer that seamlessly we would gain a huge interest in that community without the need to convince people to use OpenStep in the first hand. What will the benefit for the citizens of the Free World for that (apart from the patches that these Cocoa developers will eventually submit)? If the main goal of the GNUstep project is to help some proprietary software developers to port their apps to yet another proprietary platform, I consider the project doomed. That's a rhetorical question, though, since I know that's not the goal of the GNUstep project. Or to cut a long story short: If you want to make people to use your stuff you must offer them a purpose to do so (for instance I don't use a flat iron since I have mostly tees and sweaters). I don't think that popularity should be chased at all cost and definitely not at the expense of providing more power to some developers to enhance non-free software. That's a bad thing. There are prominent exampels of other free software projects that put popularity as a higher priority than freedom and GNUstep should definitely avoid this. Cocoa developers have a huge need for a porting solution to windows This is their problem and entirely unrelated to the goals of the GNU Project. My need as a free software user is getting GNUstep to run fine on a GNU system, so I can migrate from GNOME to GNUstep at work (that means that it has to be suitable for basic business activity and more). And so that other users can setup their systems and stop tormenting me that GNUstep is a PITA. And as a surplus we also would get some more apps for GNUstep (even if some of those would be commercial ones). Free commercial apps are welcome, but not proprietary ones. It will be a contribution equal to zero (even a negative number) if someone ports a non-free app for GNUstep. , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` Just good will and appealing to it alone is not enough. Thats maybe makes you feel better but you won't reach a single target that way. Well, it will draw attention, at least. A lot of people will examine the website and some of them might find the project interesting. Others might discover that GNUstep is a liberation effort and may decide to join, just like the GNU Classpath has attracted developers (that are freedom fighters). And I really hope that it will attract users, they're desperately needed. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 12.09.2006, at 23:22, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote: however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice for the GNU operating system... This is still more or less true -- with GNOME being steadily absorbed by the proponents of the Open Source Campaign and slowly, but permanently diverting from its initial goals, GNUstep remains as a backup variant. I don't think that such an advertisement should ever mention Windows or any other proprietary platform -- after all, support for these systems is a bonus, but not an essential goal. The purpose is to replace all non-free software completely, not to enhance it. This is ideological thinking. But if you want to achieve an objective in practice you'll have to think practically and do practically things, like give something to get something (which is also an very good social behaviour). And it's the best if the something is actually something somebody needs and gets a benefit from. That something most Cocoa developers - e.g. the people that actually *use* some kind of OpenStep today - need would be some possibility to port their software to Windows. If we could offer that seamlessly we would gain a huge interest in that community without the need to convince people to use OpenStep in the first hand (e.g. explain to them why that obscure framework using an even more obscure language with ugly square brackets instead of just standard C++ or standard Java would make sense to them). The GNU project *is* about ideological thinking, at least to some degree. Don't forget, you would not be able to use any GNU software if everything was only about commercial success and practical things. I seriously question that GNUstep (or its advertising) should be focused on some (commercial, Cocoa) developers targeting Windows. This would be just wrong IMHO. As a side note, you don't have to convince Cocoa developers to use this obscure framework using an even more obscure language ;-) -Phil -- Philippe C.D. Robert http://www.nice.ch/~phip ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 13, 2006, at 24:19, Yavor Doganov wrote: And as a surplus we also would get some more apps for GNUstep (even if some of those would be commercial ones). Free commercial apps are welcome, but not proprietary ones. Obviously this is non-sense. If proprietary apps wouldn't be welcome, GNUstep would be GPL, not LGPL. GNUstep is LGPL to explicitly allow for that. It will be a contribution equal to zero (even a negative number) if someone ports a non-free app for GNUstep. Again utter non-sense. Its quite an excellent contribution for plenty of reasons (not only the app itself, but also in the related framework improvements) until it gets possibly replaced by a free application. Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Am 13.09.2006 um 01:12 schrieb Philippe C.D. Robert: The GNU project *is* about ideological thinking, at least to some degree. Don't forget, you would not be able to use any GNU software if everything was only about commercial success and practical things. I seriously question that GNUstep (or its advertising) should be focused on some (commercial, Cocoa) developers targeting Windows. This would be just wrong IMHO. Well, to some degree. But if you start to hold the pureness of your idea in higher regards than the goal you want to reach (freedom?) you're doomed. You start to go after the people that deviate from your idea. Just look at the former eastern block or at some religious movements (both had/have the official intention to make the world a better place) As a side note, you don't have to convince Cocoa developers to use this obscure framework using an even more obscure language ;-) Exactly what I said. You don't have to convince those. But you would have to convince all those C++ heads out there, which would be much more difficult as a start (a lot of programmers are somewhat religious about their favorite language, aren't we) than to do it step by step (hey, even our project has that step moniker in it's name ;-)) not overrating our possibilities (If you want to go cross a river you could try to walk over the water, start to build a bridge or just swim.) -Phil regards, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Helge Hess wrote: Free commercial apps are welcome, but not proprietary ones. Obviously this is non-sense. If proprietary apps wouldn't be welcome, GNUstep would be GPL, not LGPL. GNUstep is LGPL to explicitly allow for that. Let me rephrase it: the fact that the core GNU libraries are under LGPL does not mean that Opera, Skype and the NVidious drivers are contributions to the free software community that have to be welcomed. The strategy behind the LGPL is not to improve and expand the electronic colonization. You are free to develop such apps, just don't confuse the free people that they are a contribution. We reject non-free software due to its unethical and antisocial nature and refuse to use it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
