Changes I've been thinking of...
Guys, There are a number of things which need to change on the project: We need to: 1) improve our website. It's been the same for years and doesn't reflect our progress. 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general. While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to update it's look. The current look should always be available, but not necessarily the default. 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general. One thing that GNUstep has been lacking in is marketing. I've been trying to improve things on that front, but I'm not the best marketer to say the very least. Does anyone have any questions or comments regarding this? I would like to hear any and all input people have. Later, GC -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On 7 Oct 2009, at 20:24, Gregory Casamento wrote: Guys, There are a number of things which need to change on the project: We need to: 1) improve our website. It's been the same for years and doesn't reflect our progress. I've been dissatisfied with it too. Not the basic appearance, which is generally a pleasantly clean/simple design, but more in function ... a. If we can figure out what key areas of interest there are, we can link to them from the home page in a manner which makes it easy for people to find them. For instance, I recently noticed there was no link to the windows installer from the home page, so I added one. b. Some inspiring news ought to be frequently updated on the front page. c. links should be kept up to date ... old code which is no longer supported should be flagged as such or moved away from more current downloads. d. the navigation links on the right should be highlighted in some way ... we read from left to right, and it's easy to fail to notice those links. Look at http://www.apache.org/ for a clearer presentation with a broadly similar layout. 3. we should have a site search field on the home page! The lack of a search facility is really annoying when someone is looking for something specific 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general. While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, Then why did you say it? ... that's rather foolhardy. I believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to update it's look. That's not a reason to change the default theme. It's a reason to try to develop at least one good alternative theme. You should not be proposing a change which will provoke argument when the alternative would achieve the same in a relatively non-contentious way/ If/when a genuinely better theme can be produced, people will WANT to adopt it as the default. The objective should be to develop a good theme (or multiple good themes). The current look should always be available, but not necessarily the default. 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general. Can't argue with that. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
RE: Changes I've been thinking of...
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:24:01 -0400 > From: greg.casame...@gmail.com > To: discuss-gnus...@gnu.org; gnustep-dev@gnu.org > CC: > Subject: Changes I've been thinking of... > > Guys, > > There are a number of things which need to change on the project: > > We need to: > 1) improve our website. It's been the same for years and doesn't > reflect our progress. For item 1, I like to suggest move the web site over to sourceforge.net. If advertisement on web page is a concern/annoying, we can use Trac like software to host GNUStep site. Trac can even support auto-build feature(bitten). Check out http://trac.edgewall.org yourself. > 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general. > While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the > default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I > believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to > update it's look. The current look should always be available, but > not necessarily the default. > 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general. To me theme is not an important issue, issue is GNUStep community is not as active as other projects. Apache,Firefox,extjs just to name a few. Also there is no killer app in GNUStep. All the software people need is on Windows, GNOME or KDE. I like to suggest we come up with a killer app to demonstrate GNUStep's write once run everywhere feature. If GNUStep have a killer app, people will install GNUStep system on their OS. Pick a most used software(maybe FireFox ?) and port the source code into objc language and GNUStep framework. tj yang, a GNUStep lurker > > One thing that GNUstep has been lacking in is marketing. I've been > trying to improve things on that front, but I'm not the best marketer > to say the very least. > > Does anyone have any questions or comments regarding this? I would > like to hear any and all input people have. > Later, GC > -- > Gregory Casamento > Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant > yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa > (240)274-9630 (Cell) > > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: > > On 7 Oct 2009, at 20:24, Gregory Casamento wrote: > >> Guys, >> >> There are a number of things which need to change on the project: >> >> We need to: >> 1) improve our website. It's been the same for years and doesn't >> reflect our progress. > > I've been dissatisfied with it too. Not the basic appearance, which is > generally a pleasantly clean/simple design, but more in function ... > > a. If we can figure out what key areas of interest there are, we can link to > them from the home page in a manner which makes it easy for people to find > them. For instance, I recently noticed there was no link to the windows > installer from the home page, so I added one. > > b. Some inspiring news ought to be frequently updated on the front page. > > c. links should be kept up to date ... old code which is no longer supported > should be flagged as such or moved away from more current downloads. > > d. the navigation links on the right should be highlighted in some way ... > we read from left to right, and it's easy to fail to notice those links. > Look at http://www.apache.org/ for a clearer presentation with a broadly > similar layout. > > 3. we should have a site search field on the home page! The lack of a > search facility is really annoying when someone is looking for something > specific I agree with all of these. >> 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general. >> While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the >> default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, > > Then why did you say it? ... that's rather foolhardy. Because the current look is a source of constant criticism from people outside the community and I hear it all of the time. Also, I mention it because I feel like the look (even though I, personally, like it) may send the wrong message about the project. Some people look at how it looks and don't see that GNUstep is so much more than OpenStep. They look at it and they see NeXTSTEP and they think it's nothing more than that. This is a shame since GNUstep is SO much more. What I don't want to happen is for people to look at the current theme and think "it's just NeXTSTEP/OpenStep" and don't think twice about it. >> I believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to >> update it's look. > > That's not a reason to change the default theme. It's a reason to try to > develop at least one good alternative theme. You should not be proposing a > change which will provoke argument when the alternative would achieve the > same in a relatively non-contentious way/ > If/when a genuinely better theme can be produced, people will WANT to adopt > it as the default. The objective should be to develop a good theme (or > multiple good themes). Indeed, I agree with this. >> The current look should always be available, but >> not necessarily the default. >> 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general. > > > Can't argue with that. > :) Later, GC -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant ## GNUstep Chief Maintainer yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell), (301)362-9640 (Home) ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
I'll just give my opinion on each topic... On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Gregory Casamento wrote: > 1) improve our website. It's been the same for years and doesn't > reflect our progress. > I agree here. A while back, myself an Jesse from the Etoile project started, but I had to divert my attention to other things and I'm guessing so did Jesse. I think the move to link the Software Index was great, but, at this point, GNUstep has 3 different sources for software look-up: 1. Software Index 2. Wiki 3. Website (which links to the wiki and freshmeat) That's just plain confusing! I personally like the Software Index better but it will require application developers to be more active in maintaining they're projects up to date. Also, I think there needs to be a real content "audit". If I want to get to the developer docs I need to go Developers -> Manuals and Documentations... and when I get there need to scroll through quite a few links, which may or may not be outdated and redudant... only then will I find the actual API docs. This is just an example. One this issue (content) I think the core developers need to take a step back and ask "who do we want to reach" and "what to we want to convey". 2) improve GNUstep's default theme as well as theming in general. > While I know some people will respond negatively to changing the > default theme from a NeXT-like look to something more modern, I > believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to > update it's look. The current look should always be available, but > not necessarily the default. > I agree with Richard on this one! Windows, QT, GTK and FLTK (to name a few) all come default with a very bland theme (except Windows, but you still have the option). Square buttons, grey everything, etc. At most, I'd say the theme can be a little more subtle... the buttons just feel very raised for my taste. In my opinion, and that's all it is, the problem here is a little deeper. The first, and most obvious, is that GNUstep theming is still very young. Apart from Camaleon (does it still work?) and some of Riccardo's themes there's nothing out there. The second, which is a little deeper, is that there's no way to globally define defaults. If I'm out there creating a GNUstep package (and I mostly do for Slackware, I just need to get on it for 13.0) there's not way for me to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that. I know it's been brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where the problem lies. 3) Improve our ability to market ourselves in general. > A new, targeted website would definitely get you off on the right foot. Let me know if I can help in anyway. My help will be limited, at best, because I just started grad school. Stefan ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
Hey I believe it's one way for us to spark interest in the project is to update it's look. That's not a reason to change the default theme. It's a reason to try to develop at least one good alternative theme. You should not be proposing a change which will provoke argument when the alternative would achieve the same in a relatively non-contentious way/ If/when a genuinely better theme can be produced, people will WANT to adopt it as the default. The objective should be to develop a good theme (or multiple good themes). Indeed, I agree with this. A SystemPrefernces panel to set the theme, much like the current one in the InfoPanel, but working in the global domain... would help a lot! it would make a switch with a click and a revert with the same... and not for each application. What do you think? A small preview would be even more awesome. Maybe to simply things it could be faked with an included TIFF of a screenshot of a predefined palette Richard, could you add the ability to change the theme icon in Thematic? Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Stef Bidi wrote: > 13.0) there's not way for me > to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above > allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that. I know it's been > brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because > of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where > the problem lies. I believe you are mistaken, NSUserDefaults handles global settings fine, you just need to add the default to the NSGlobalDomain, unless you mean on more than a per-user basis, e.g. on a system basis extending the defaults system into the Local/ directories? ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
Hi On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:24:01PM -0400, Gregory Casamento wrote: > Guys, > > There are a number of things which need to change on the project: > > We need to: > 1) improve our website. It's been the same for years and doesn't > reflect our progress. For me, the one thing that really lowers GNUstep credibility is the super high 'bitrot factor' : a lot of the software found in the wiki is outdated, or it's website disappeared, or it won't compile or it's almost useless. Building the core librairies is good (thanks guys !) but we need a good set of working applications, easily found and easily built. One example I ran recently is AddressManager and the VCFViewer inspector. There is one version in GAP, one version in Etoile. One version of VCFViewer in AddressManager tree and one in GWorkspace website and wiki page. There are multiple terminal applications (gap, backbone, etoile ?) but none really usable (to my knowledge, maybe I missed something). There is Preferences and SystemPreferences. GNUMail doesn't work for me and seems stalled. What I'm trying to say is that I think we should try to centralize things (one repository for all !) and work on a set of defined applications instead of collecting random stuff. One last thing about stable/unstable : the website frontpage advertize gnustep startup 0.23.0 as a stable release with make 2.2.0, base 1.19.1, gui 0.17.0 and back 0.17.0. In the download page, stable startup version is 0.22.0 and unstable 0.19.3. Stable base is 1.18.0 which for me means that base 1.19.1 included in startup 0.23.0 is not stable. Same thing for gui and back. Question is : what should I download ?! I hope this doesn't sound too negative, really. I really like GNUstep and wish to use a GNUstep desktop one day :o). Thanks, Philippe -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are! ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On 7 Oct 2009, at 22:38, Matt Rice wrote: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Stef Bidi wrote: 13.0) there's not way for me to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that. I know it's been brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where the problem lies. I believe you are mistaken, NSUserDefaults handles global settings fine, you just need to add the default to the NSGlobalDomain, Unless I have missed something, NSGlobalDomain is a per-user thing. There is no sensible way of setting a default value for a user default globally. Apps can do this via the standard APIs, but there is no way for packagers to provide a default value for a default. For example, we can put Camaelon and Nesedah in a package, but there is no way to make it the default theme for any users who have not selected a theme as part of the package installation. This question has been asked on the list before and no one replied with a way, so I assume it is still impossible. It would be nice to have a standard directory for plists which are merged together to provide the default user default values. I looked at doing this a while ago, but it required implementing whiteout in the per-user defaults (so you could delete a default that exists in this directory). This is something else that we need to address. The OpenStep style of distribution is to provide drag and drop application bundles, which are great for single-user system but not ideal for multi-user systems like a typical *BSD or Linux distribution. There are probably quite a few things that we could do to make it easier to package GNUstep and GNUstep apps / frameworks that we miss because we all build from source, which would help a lot with adoption. David -- Sent from my Apple II ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
Hi, The first, and most obvious, is that GNUstep theming is still very young. Apart from Camaleon (does it still work?) and some of Riccardo's themes there's nothing out there. Thank you for citing the effort. It is indeed very young. I was also amazed at the little response it got, given the amount of time usually spent talking/writing about theming. My themes are just a beginning because they are pixmap themes that go 1:1 with Thematic capabilities. Code themes can bemore powerful but more complex to write, I think we should be able to do a good simple scheme by playing with pixmaps and colors only. If you look for something more subtle, look at the "Neos" theme. The second, which is a little deeper, is that there's no way to globally define defaults. If I'm out there creating a GNUstep package (and I mostly do for Slackware, I just need to get on it for 13.0) there's not way for me to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that. I know it's been brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where the problem lies. From a packager point of you that is understandable. Maybe an init script wwhich sets defaults, a bit like windowmaker does? Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Philippe Roussel wrote: > Hi > What I'm trying to say is that I think we should try to centralize > things (one repository for all !) and work on a set of defined > applications instead of collecting random stuff. Yuck. first of all, this is impossible, because not everything out there is copyright assigned. IMO the way to go is decentralized, that doesn't mean we can't have a central repository to collect all the various decentralized projects in one easy to grab location. doing this would also allow for the various forks out there to usurp one another, if one repository dies, and someone picks it up, just update the location in the 'central collection' to point to a new repository maintained by whomever. then the GNU FSF-copyright assigned collection only references GNU FSF copyright assigned code, and someone else (e.g. the gap project) could create a project which references the copyright assigned code, + the other non assigned projects ideally you'd be able to build all the sub-projects i one go, something that we don't get in our existing build system. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
Hi, Philippe Roussel wrote: For me, the one thing that really lowers GNUstep credibility is the super high 'bitrot factor' : a lot of the software found in the wiki is outdated, or it's website disappeared, or it won't compile or it's almost useless. Building the core librairies is good (thanks guys !) but we need a good set of working applications, easily found and easily built. True... applications need love and care just not to "bit rot". Whiich gives the user a terrible impression. One example I ran recently is AddressManager and the VCFViewer inspector. There is one version in GAP, one version in Etoile. One version of VCFViewer in AddressManager tree and one in GWorkspace website and wiki page. I am working on that, you are helping me too there. The GAP version is the official Addresses, Bjoern "donated" it to us. GAP has become a kitchen-sink for apps not loved by their owners anymore... I try my best to keep them going and added in the last years several applications! When a core developer like Enrico leaves, it leaves a lot of stuff... I don't think everybody realized how much Enrico did for GNUstep. With the releases, the wiki pages will be corrected, etc etc. We're gettign there, just slowly. You yourself are helping me out lately! There are multiple terminal applications (gap, backbone, etoile ?) but none really usable (to my knowledge, maybe I missed something). These are harsh words? I don't know of etoile, but the one in GAP works. I use it every single day! It may miss some features but works. ANd I assume backbone's does too, the code bae is essentially the same, but the philosophies about releases, makefiles etc. differ. There is Preferences and SystemPreferences. It is lecit to have more applications that do similar things! Happens on windows too... SystemPreferences is from Enrico, it is Apple compatible. Preference's is more limited in the UI, has different modules but looks better :) GNUMail doesn't work for me and seems stalled. That is sadly very very true. TIm Kack found out what makes it crash, made a partial patch... but it is left there. He can tell us the details. But furthermore Ludovic should accept the patch, commit and make a new beta tarball. What I'm trying to say is that I think we should try to centralize things (one repository for all !) and work on a set of defined applications instead of collecting random stuff. That is not striclty necessary, but things should be clearly linked from the gnustep main site. One last thing about stable/unstable : the website frontpage advertize gnustep startup 0.23.0 as a stable release with make 2.2.0, base 1.19.1, gui 0.17.0 and back 0.17.0. In the download page, stable startup version is 0.22.0 and unstable 0.19.3. Stable base is 1.18.0 which for me means that base 1.19.1 included in startup 0.23.0 is not stable. Same thing for gui and back. Question is : what should I download ?! Our downloads are terribly confusing! I hope this doesn't sound too negative, really. I really like GNUstep and wish to use a GNUstep desktop one day :o). It is honest, which is what counts. Riccardo ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On 7 Oct 2009, at 22:28, Stef Bidi wrote: The second, which is a little deeper, is that there's no way to globally define defaults. If I'm out there creating a GNUstep package (and I mostly do for Slackware, I just need to get on it for 13.0) there's not way for me to set a default, "preferred" theme-- which is what the GUI toolkits above allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that. Actually, you can define global defaults in the GobalDefaults.plist file, which lives in the same directory as the GNUstep configuration file (and you can also put simple string values directly in GNUstep.conf using GNUSTEP_EXTRA if you don't want the overhead of loading GlobalDefaults.plist). See http://www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/Developer/Base/Reference/index.html and the NSUserDefaults documentation. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On 7 Oct 2009, at 23:37, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Richard, could you add the ability to change the theme icon in Thematic? It's already there ... just click on it, and an open panel will come up for you to select the new icon image. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
On 7 Oct 2009, at 23:00, David Chisnall wrote: On 7 Oct 2009, at 22:38, Matt Rice wrote: On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Stef Bidi wrote: 13.0) there's not way for me to set a default, "preferred" theme--which is what the GUI toolkits above allow you to do--there is just no way for me to do that. I know it's been brought up a few times in the past, and if I remember correctly it's because of the way NSUserDefaults is setup, so (again, in my opinion) that's where the problem lies. I believe you are mistaken, NSUserDefaults handles global settings fine, you just need to add the default to the NSGlobalDomain, Unless I have missed something, NSGlobalDomain is a per-user thing. Yes. There is no sensible way of setting a default value for a user default globally. GlobalDefaults.plist does that. Apps can do this via the standard APIs, but there is no way for packagers to provide a default value for a default. GlobalDefaults.plist does that. For example, we can put Camaelon and Nesedah in a package, but there is no way to make it the default theme for any users who have not selected a theme as part of the package installation. GlobalDefaults.plist does that. This question has been asked on the list before and no one replied with a way, so I assume it is still impossible. Maybe nobody bothered to answer, or they did and you missed it. It would be nice to have a standard directory for plists which are merged together to provide the default user default values. I looked at doing this a while ago, but it required implementing whiteout in the per-user defaults (so you could delete a default that exists in this directory). The per-user defaults override the global ones ... what we don't have is a mechanism for having global defaults which can't be overridden but I'm not sure we want to do that (it seems to be against the spirit of free software). ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
