Advertisement for gnustep
RMS has offered to put something on the gnu.org home page about GNUstep. Any ideas what we should say or ask for? I had mentioned that we are trying to organize a desktop. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sunday 10 September 2006 00:21, Adam Fedor wrote: > RMS has offered to put something on the gnu.org home page about > GNUstep. Any ideas what we should say or ask for? I had mentioned that > we are trying to organize a desktop. Honestly, I'd ask him to save the offer for maybe another few years. Advertising for something that doesn't exist and has a strong chance of not existing is stupid, and will only sour relations with potential users. -- Patrick McFarland || http://AdTerrasPerAspera.com "Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Adam, Is it an ad for new developers or an ad urging end-users to try GNUstep? Later, GJC --Gregory Casamento - Original Message From: Adam Fedor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Developer GNUstep Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:21:32 AM Subject: Advertisement for gnustep RMS has offered to put something on the gnu.org home page about GNUstep. Any ideas what we should say or ask for? I had mentioned that we are trying to organize a desktop. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 2006-09-10 07:30:15 +0200 Patrick McFarland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sunday 10 September 2006 00:21, Adam Fedor wrote: RMS has offered to put something on the gnu.org home page about GNUstep. Any ideas what we should say or ask for? I had mentioned that we are trying to organize a desktop. Honestly, I'd ask him to save the offer for maybe another few years. Advertising for something that doesn't exist and has a strong chance of not existing is stupid, and will only sour relations with potential users. You are right in assuming that people with a potential interest in looking for a GNUstep-based *desktop*environment* would be pretty pissed if there was an ad for 'vaporware' -- however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice for the GNU operating system... -- Chris ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sunday 10 September 2006 00:21, Adam Fedor wrote: >> RMS has offered to put something on the gnu.org home page about >> GNUstep. Any ideas what we should say or ask for? I had mentioned that >> we are trying to organize a desktop. > > Honestly, I'd ask him to save the offer for maybe another few years. > Advertising for something that doesn't exist and has a strong chance of not > existing is stupid, and will only sour relations with potential users. That is a good point ... maybe we should advertise about the part that definitely exists then ... that is, the core non-gui libraries. ;-) Those are not a desktop, but to write non-graphical server programs they're the best GNU stuff available! :-D We should also mention the gui stuff, but as you say "the desktop" probably shouldn't be the main focus ... end users coming for the desktop might be upset to find something that's not ready to compete with GNOME or KDE (Gorm might impress them though) :-) Can we advertise ObjC + GNUstep as a 'truly free' replacement for Java ? That would be fun. ;-) Anyway, I don't think we should miss opportunities to advertise. Advertisement should be effective/attractive, but also honest, ie, we should advertise only for stuff that we have and that we think is ready for the masses. :-) We have enough stuff ready for the masses to put together some advertisement though! :-) Thanks ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 10.09.2006, at 13:03, Nicola Pero wrote:
Can we advertise ObjC + GNUstep as a 'truly free' replacement for
Java ?
That would be fun. ;-)
Not really, since you can perfectly develop highly complex multi-
platform GUI apps in Java, whereas this is far from realistic with
GNUstep, I am afraid.
Personally I would integrate Etoilé into GNUstep (granted the authors
agree), update the GNUstep website to reflect this new "GNUstep
paradigm" ("GNUstep" being a GNU desktop for X11 based Unices) and
then advertise this as "GNUstep Alpha" or so (the frameworks/
libraries can still be used as cross-platform API, of course).
-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip
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Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 2006-09-10 14:33:22 +0200 Philippe C.D. Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Personally I would integrate Etoilé into GNUstep (granted the authors
> agree), update the GNUstep website to reflect this new "GNUstep paradigm"
> ("GNUstep" being a GNU desktop for X11 based Unices) and then advertise this
> as "GNUstep Alpha" or so (the frameworks/ libraries can still be used as
> cross-platform API, of course).
Sorry to probably p*ss some of Etoile's developers off, but though Etoile has
some cool ideas (and some of those even already implemented) it is further away
from being a desktop environment than GWorkspace.
--
Chris
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Re: Advertisement for gnustep
> > Can we advertise ObjC + GNUstep as a 'truly free' replacement for Java ? > > That would be fun. ;-) > Not really, since you can perfectly develop highly complex multi- > platform GUI apps in Java, whereas this is far from realistic with > GNUstep, I am afraid. Good point ... I'm afraid I was thinking of the "server-side" Java. ;-) I mean, you know all those "enterprise applications" that have no GUI -- or that have a web interface as the user interface. :-) Thanks ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 10, 2006, at 18:19, Nicola Pero wrote: Good point ... I'm afraid I was thinking of the "server-side" Java. ;-) I mean, you know all those "enterprise applications" that have no GUI -- or that have a web interface as the user interface. :-) Well, for the advertisement. What would you say, _why_ is GNUstep good for that? :-) Eg Ruby tries to get into that market by allowing the user to contruct flashy web 2.0 apps in a few minutes (and they do not seem to succeed). Do we have a similiar unique feature which could drive enterprise people to try GNUstep? Thanks, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 10.09.2006, at 21:34, Helge Hess wrote: On Sep 10, 2006, at 18:19, Nicola Pero wrote: Good point ... I'm afraid I was thinking of the "server-side" Java. ;-) I mean, you know all those "enterprise applications" that have no GUI -- or that have a web interface as the user interface. :-) Well, for the advertisement. What would you say, _why_ is GNUstep good for that? :-) Eg Ruby tries to get into that market by allowing the user to contruct flashy web 2.0 apps in a few minutes (and they do not seem to succeed). Do we have a similiar unique feature which could drive enterprise people to try GNUstep? These people are not exactly waiting for yet another cross-platform framework. IMO the only chance for GNUstep to get some wider adoption is to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based Unices. But then again, we had this discussion for a very long time... -Phil -- Philippe C.D. Robert http://www.nice.ch/~phip ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Hi, i'm new to GNUstep, i know OpenStep using osx. I also trying to use the Hurd, but ... However, i believe that OpenStep is the best interface/specification to use a modern OS, using Objective-C (the best language). ...(a lot of advertisement from OpenStep. DPS ...) But GNUstep is not only that, it si the union of "genials" guidelines for a very good usable system and the power of the userland by GNU. It is an heaven for people confusing (in my dreams :) the user and developer. adv: "A System developed to use and used to develop" ... sorry sorry for my english. Thanks ___ in italiano (e in breve), forse mi è più facile: (end-user inteso col mouse in mano) vedo OpenStep efficaciemente progettato in quanto ogni implementazione porta ad un sistema facile da usare x l'utente finale. Immagino GNUstep come il più giusto passo verso l'utente finale in quanto grazie al paradigma OO risulta facile sviluppare app per l'end-user, quindi x l'utente, in pieno spirito GNU, è invogliato a svilupparsi le proprie app. GNUstep: end-user=> GNU && GNU => end-user dove => è il passo (lo Step). Grazie Nicola i think you are italian, e così mi sono permesso. Marco ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 10, 2006, at 22:00, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote: Well, for the advertisement. What would you say, _why_ is GNUstep good for that? :-) Eg Ruby tries to get into that market by allowing the user to contruct flashy web 2.0 apps in a few minutes (and they do not seem to succeed). Do we have a similiar unique feature which could drive enterprise people to try GNUstep? These people are not exactly waiting for yet another cross-platform framework. IMO the only chance for GNUstep to get some wider adoption is to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based Unices. But then again, we had this discussion for a very long time... Hm, the response is slightly out of context, no? :-) Please don't turn it into the discussion "we had a for a very long time", we all know that :-) The initial point was an agreement that as a desktop we have nothing to advertise successfully _right now_ and the question what we _could_ advertise w/o disappointing people. Nicola correctly said that the best thing about GNUstep is the Foundation library. Though I have a few issues (eg bad out-of-the-box FHS support) it can certainly be considered finished. Now the question is whether we can somehow advertise this fact? As we all inofficially know the few places where GNUstep is in fact successful are a few large scale GNUstep based enterprise applications. The bad thing is that you are not usually allowed to talk about them :-) Well and the other issue is that most usually exist for legacy reasons, not because it would be the environment of choice nowadays. So the question is whether gstep-base could be interesting for people and why. Can we put that into an ad which triggers someone? Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 9, 2006, at 11:49 PM, Gregory John Casamento wrote: Adam, Is it an ad for new developers or an ad urging end-users to try GNUstep? It's more of an add to get more help, but I think getting more users would provide the same benefit. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Adam Fedor wrote: On Sep 9, 2006, at 11:49 PM, Gregory John Casamento wrote: Adam, Is it an ad for new developers or an ad urging end-users to try GNUstep? It's more of an add to get more help, but I think getting more users would provide the same benefit. Maybe the best way to promote the GNUstep project is to set goals. Create an overview of the current state and the milestones. Give developers triggers where they can make contributions and what is in it for them. We all know GNUstep can be the best desktop environment around and we can beat everything that was (maybe even that will be). The trick is to get people in. So tell honestly what is missing, where they can make their hands dirty (cairo integration springs to mind). Just my 2 cents. Dennis ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Am 10.09.2006 um 22:00 schrieb Philippe C.D. Robert: [...] to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based Unices. Good for advertisement as long as you leave out the emphasis on "X11" ... there's a Cairo backend already and an X11 requirement would be a showstopper for many Mac developers as well. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 10.09.2006, at 22:43, Helge Hess wrote: On Sep 10, 2006, at 22:00, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote: Well, for the advertisement. What would you say, _why_ is GNUstep good for that? :-) Eg Ruby tries to get into that market by allowing the user to contruct flashy web 2.0 apps in a few minutes (and they do not seem to succeed). Do we have a similiar unique feature which could drive enterprise people to try GNUstep? These people are not exactly waiting for yet another cross- platform framework. IMO the only chance for GNUstep to get some wider adoption is to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based Unices. But then again, we had this discussion for a very long time... Hm, the response is slightly out of context, no? :-) Please don't turn it into the discussion "we had a for a very long time", we all know that :-) The initial point was an agreement that as a desktop we have nothing to advertise successfully _right now_ and the question what we _could_ advertise w/o disappointing people. Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am convinced this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire project. Nicola correctly said that the best thing about GNUstep is the Foundation library. Though I have a few issues (eg bad out-of-the- box FHS support) it can certainly be considered finished. Now the question is whether we can somehow advertise this fact? So the question is whether gstep-base could be interesting for people and why. Can we put that into an ad which triggers someone? Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully" after all those years? Do you really believe it is sufficient to advertise solely GNUstep base in some form or another in these days? Even though it is possible to do good marketing w/o having any product, it won't actually be easy to successfully promote GNUstep in the enterprise world in these days... Also, what exactly is the purpose of the amazing Gorm application when there is no usable UI environment (exaggerating, I know)? The real strength of OpenStep/ Cocoa is IMO the AppKit in conjunction with IB/Gorm, hence this is what we should focus on (and advertise), even if it's not yet 100% there! Of course this will again trigger the discussion wrt a real GNUstep desktop environment, I am afraid ;-) Anyway, what would be your proposal? -Phil -- Philippe C.D. Robert http://www.nice.ch/~phip ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Am 11.09.2006 um 05:00 schrieb Adam Fedor: On Sep 9, 2006, at 11:49 PM, Gregory John Casamento wrote: Adam, Is it an ad for new developers or an ad urging end-users to try GNUstep? It's more of an add to get more help, but I think getting more users would provide the same benefit. O.k. then we should try to get developers who have both Windows and Unix experience to advance the Windows port of gnustep (esp. GNUstep GUI) IMHO. From what I have perceived from the mailing lists it's that kind of people we lack most. regards, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 11 Sep 2006, at 20:07, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote: On 10.09.2006, at 22:43, Helge Hess wrote: On Sep 10, 2006, at 22:00, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote: Well, for the advertisement. What would you say, _why_ is GNUstep good for that? :-) Eg Ruby tries to get into that market by allowing the user to contruct flashy web 2.0 apps in a few minutes (and they do not seem to succeed). Do we have a similiar unique feature which could drive enterprise people to try GNUstep? These people are not exactly waiting for yet another cross- platform framework. IMO the only chance for GNUstep to get some wider adoption is to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based Unices. But then again, we had this discussion for a very long time... Hm, the response is slightly out of context, no? :-) Please don't turn it into the discussion "we had a for a very long time", we all know that :-) The initial point was an agreement that as a desktop we have nothing to advertise successfully _right now_ and the question what we _could_ advertise w/o disappointing people. Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am convinced this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire project. I happen to think that's completely wrong ... as I don't know of anyone who doesn't want GNUstep to become a desktop (in the sense of being opposed to it), and even if some people were opposed to it that doesn't mean they would be able to prevent it ... as there are certainly no such people among the core developers. My strong feeling is that most developers ideally want GNUstep to be an entire system! Nicola correctly said that the best thing about GNUstep is the Foundation library. Though I have a few issues (eg bad out-of-the- box FHS support) it can certainly be considered finished. Now the question is whether we can somehow advertise this fact? So the question is whether gstep-base could be interesting for people and why. Can we put that into an ad which triggers someone? Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully" after all those years? Do you really believe it is sufficient to advertise solely GNUstep base in some form or another in these days? Even though it is possible to do good marketing w/o having any product, it won't actually be easy to successfully promote GNUstep in the enterprise world in these days... Also, what exactly is the purpose of the amazing Gorm application when there is no usable UI environment (exaggerating, I know)? The real strength of OpenStep/Cocoa is IMO the AppKit in conjunction with IB/Gorm, hence this is what we should focus on (and advertise), even if it's not yet 100% there! Of course this will again trigger the discussion wrt a real GNUstep desktop environment, I am afraid ;-) Anyway, what would be your proposal? In the absence of a complete environment ... we need to attract people to do two things ... 1. make the gui smoothly compatible with gnome/kde as a transitional thing and to attract developers who want to use the API and Gorm, but also want to write apps the rest of the free software community can use. 2. build the new apps ... so we will have a complete environment. So I agree that advertising the ease of use of Gorm and the gui API would probably be a very good thing. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 11, 2006, at 21:07, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote: Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a desktop in the first place. I didn't say that your writing was wrong or that the phrasing was suboptimal. I just think that you put things out of context. Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully" after all those years? I'm not quite sure whether you read my mail. All your points are good but thats a different thread, and one which I'm not very motivated to discuss again ;-) In fact thats what I liked about Nicola's proposal, it suggests to do something with the things we actually do have, right now, instead of arguing about what GNUstep could be. Anyway, what would be your proposal? I've no proposal which is why I _asked_ for suggestions on how it would be possible to turn Nicola's idea into something which can be advertised. I'm kinda confused why you reask the same question to me. Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Hey,
On Sunday, September 10, 2006, at 02:33 PM, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:
Personally I would integrate Etoilé into GNUstep (granted the authors
agree), update the GNUstep website to reflect this new "GNUstep
paradigm" ("GNUstep" being a GNU desktop for X11 based Unices) and
then advertise this as "GNUstep Alpha" or so (the frameworks/ libraries
can still be used as cross-platform API, of course).
I would not integrate etoile' at all!
also the new website should advertise the new paradigm, but not forget
the old one, which remains perfectly valid.
Also, gnustep... starts to be a bit usable on windows... several
programs work reasonably well. This is a very nice thing and goes beyond
the "DE scope"
Tos um up, I would definitively accept advertising, we need that, but
care has to be taken in what to advertise.
I would NOT use the term Desktop Environment AT ALL. It is something too
closely related to GNOME, KDE. As I mentioned earlier, many people would
fail to accept older macos 10.0/10.1 or even MS windows 2000 as a viable
DE.
my personal idea, very vaguely, would be to stress
-overall user experience ("hinting at a desktop with other terms) and
thus pointing at our unusual but interesting UI style (not just the
widgets, the programs them selves)
-the ease of coding and developing (even in NeXT time this was a major
seller)
On the website itself, I would put a better emphasis on related projects
like backbone, GAP and etoile, but would not mention them in our
advertising.
the ideas here are by no means complete!
-R
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Re: Advertisement for gnustep
> Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message > behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never > will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a > desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am convinced > this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire project. Just in case you're referring to me, I do want a GNUstep desktop :-) I don't personally use a desktop myself (unless you call a barebone WindowMaker + xterm a 'desktop'), but a complete GNUstep desktop that provides a free implementation of a NeXTstep/Apple Mac OS X type desktop is/would be a fantastic thing to have! ;-) Thanks ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 11.09.2006, at 22:06, Helge Hess wrote: On Sep 11, 2006, at 21:07, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote: Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a desktop in the first place. I didn't say that your writing was wrong or that the phrasing was suboptimal. I just think that you put things out of context. Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully" after all those years? I'm not quite sure whether you read my mail. All your points are good but thats a different thread, and one which I'm not very motivated to discuss again ;-) In fact thats what I liked about Nicola's proposal, it suggests to do something with the things we actually do have, right now, instead of arguing about what GNUstep could be. Yes, I tend to read the emails I reply to. Anyway, we do have Gorm right now, we also have GWorkspace, we have a good Mail app and so on ;-) I guess I simply doubt the importance of gstep-base as a promoter for the GNUstep project. Moreover, regarding the enterprise business as a potential option to advertise GNUstep, I am just not sure it will work because it did not work for the last decade or so. Anyway, what would be your proposal? I've no proposal which is why I _asked_ for suggestions on how it would be possible to turn Nicola's idea into something which can be advertised. I'm kinda confused why you reask the same question to me. Well, probably because I am curious to hear whether you have an idea yourself? ;-) -Phil -- Philippe C.D. Robert http://www.nice.ch/~phip ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 11.09.2006, at 21:44, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am convinced this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire project. I happen to think that's completely wrong ... as I don't know of anyone who doesn't want GNUstep to become a desktop (in the sense of being opposed to it), and even if some people were opposed to it that doesn't mean they would be able to prevent it ... as there are certainly no such people among the core developers. My strong feeling is that most developers ideally want GNUstep to be an entire system! You are correct, sorry if I was not precise. It's not about nobody wants GNUstep to become a desktop, it is about priorities. Should GNUstep be promoted/pushed as a (Unix) desktop environment or should it be a pure (cross-platform) framework which can then be used to write a desktop or whatever. Whenever this discussion came up many valuable contributors expressed their sympathy for the latter option. Now again, this is legitimate, but it has - obviously - strong influences on the project itself. -Phil -- Philippe C.D. Robert http://www.nice.ch/~phip ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Nicola Pero wrote: Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am convinced this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire project. Just in case you're referring to me, I do want a GNUstep desktop :-) I don't personally use a desktop myself (unless you call a barebone WindowMaker + xterm a 'desktop'), but a complete GNUstep desktop that provides a free implementation of a NeXTstep/Apple Mac OS X type desktop is/would be a fantastic thing to have! ;-) Indeed, especially if it looks like something I am used to, say NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, Windows or Mac OS X. Please pretty please, don't make new themes, new looks, another "we are gnome, we are cool", "we are KDE, we are new", "whatever new thing that is just ugly". Guerkan ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 2006-09-12 13:38:40 +0200 Gürkan Sengün <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Indeed, especially if it looks like something I am used to, say > NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, Windows or Mac OS X. Please pretty please, > don't make new themes, new looks, another "we are gnome, we > are cool", "we are KDE, we are new", "whatever new thing > that is just ugly". You're absolutely right, however that is one of the major drawbacks for GNUstep -- that it DOESN'T look like KDE, GNOME or XFCE. Or should I say "doesn't try to imitate Windows" ??? Most people are USED to the Windows look and feel, they are NOT used (anymore) to the look of NeXT (or OSX for that matter). -- Chris ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Chris Vetter wrote: On 2006-09-12 13:38:40 +0200 Gürkan Sengün <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Indeed, especially if it looks like something I am used to, say NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, Windows or Mac OS X. Please pretty please, don't make new themes, new looks, another "we are gnome, we are cool", "we are KDE, we are new", "whatever new thing that is just ugly". You're absolutely right, however that is one of the major drawbacks for GNUstep -- that it DOESN'T look like KDE, GNOME or XFCE. Or should I say "doesn't try to imitate Windows" ??? Most people are USED to the Windows look and feel, they are NOT used (anymore) to the look of NeXT (or OSX for that matter). Maybe we should win on brains/quality instead of looks... http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=inDepthNews&storyID=2006-08-30T130311Z_01_PEK290182_RTRUKOC_0_US-CHINA-SURGERY.xml http://marshallbrain.com/discard3.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64857-2004May28.html ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 12, 2006, at 13:38, Gürkan Sengün wrote: Please pretty please, don't make new themes, new looks, another "we are gnome, we are cool", "we are KDE, we are new", "whatever new thing that is just ugly". As mentioned by Chris this is indeed a major selling point of GNOME and KDE, they look like Windows. Eg GNOME Evolution is an extreme example being almost an exact replica of Outlook. Having a MacOS primary theme would certainly be great instead of a Windows like theme. Especially since this has a big potential to aquire in Cocoa developers. But then you'll most likely get letters from the Apple lawyers making that a no go ;-) Greets, Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
В Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:30:14 +0200, Chris Vetter написа: > however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was > supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice > for the GNU operating system... This is still more or less true -- with GNOME being steadily absorbed by the proponents of the Open Source Campaign and slowly, but permanently diverting from its initial goals, GNUstep remains as a backup variant. I don't think that such an advertisement should ever mention Windows or any other proprietary platform -- after all, support for these systems is a bonus, but not an essential goal. The purpose is to replace all non-free software completely, not to enhance it. I suspect this "ad" is for the "Take Action" section, so how about something like this: , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` FYI, I have write access for www.gnu.org so I can help if needed, once you agree on the wording and RMS acks it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 12, 2006, at 7:49 AM, Yavor Doganov wrote: I suspect this "ad" is for the "Take Action" section, so how about something like this: , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` Yes! This is pretty close to what I wanted to say as well. I'll ask RMS about it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
O.k. then we should try to get developers who have both Windows and Unix experience to advance the Windows port of gnustep (esp. GNUstep GUI) IMHO. From what I have perceived from the mailing lists it's that kind of people we lack most. I'm very interested on helping with the windows port! I have windows, unix and OS X experience. The windows port is really important to me and it seems to be very unstable! Daniel ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
I happen to think that's completely wrong ... as I don't know of anyone who doesn't want GNUstep to become a desktop (in the sense of being opposed to it), and even if some people were opposed to it that doesn't mean they would be able to prevent it ... as there are certainly no such people among the core developers. My strong feeling is that most developers ideally want GNUstep to be an entire system! I don't mind a GNUstep desktop. but I would like that the GNUstep core (foundation and appKit) to remain independent! I You should be able to have the hability to run applications on top of windows or kde or gnome or even os x without the need of this desktop environment. All you need would be the gnustep core. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Am 12.09.2006 um 15:49 schrieb Yavor Doganov: В Sun, 10 Sep 2006 12:30:14 +0200, Chris Vetter написа: however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice for the GNU operating system... This is still more or less true -- with GNOME being steadily absorbed by the proponents of the Open Source Campaign and slowly, but permanently diverting from its initial goals, GNUstep remains as a backup variant. I don't think that such an advertisement should ever mention Windows or any other proprietary platform -- after all, support for these systems is a bonus, but not an essential goal. The purpose is to replace all non-free software completely, not to enhance it. This is ideological thinking. But if you want to achieve an objective in practice you'll have to think practically and do practically things, like give something to get something (which is also an very good social behaviour). And it's the best if the "something" is actually something somebody needs and gets a benefit from. That "something" most Cocoa developers - e.g. the people that actually *use* some kind of OpenStep today - need would be some possibility to port their software to Windows. If we could offer that seamlessly we would gain a huge interest in that community without the need to convince people to use OpenStep in the first hand (e.g. explain to them why that obscure framework using an even more obscure language with "ugly square brackets" instead of just "standard C++" or "standard Java" would make sense to them). Or to cut a long story short: If you want to make people to use your stuff you must offer them a purpose to do so (for instance I don't use a flat iron since I have mostly tees and sweaters). Cocoa developers have a huge need for a porting solution to windows (just listen to the discussions on cocoa-dev. If we could get them to use GNUstep for that, at least some of them will send in bug fixes and patches, that is for sure (/me points at Andreas Hoeschler here ;-)). Maybe the one or another would stick then. And as a surplus we also would get some more apps for GNUstep (even if some of those would be commercial ones). I suspect this "ad" is for the "Take Action" section, so how about something like this: , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` Just good will and appealing to it alone is not enough. Thats maybe makes you feel better but you won't reach a single target that way. FYI, I have write access for www.gnu.org so I can help if needed, once you agree on the wording and RMS acks it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote: This is ideological thinking. Free software is extremely ideological, political and social by nature. The ultimate goal of the GNU Project is to change the society. But if you want to achieve an objective in practice you'll have to think practically and do practically things, like give something to get something (which is also an very good social behaviour). We are pragmatic idealists, I'm sure you know that ;-) http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html And it's the best if the "something" is actually something somebody needs and gets a benefit from. That "something" most Cocoa developers - e.g. the people that actually *use* some kind of OpenStep today - need would be some possibility to port their software to Windows. If we could offer that seamlessly we would gain a huge interest in that community without the need to convince people to use OpenStep in the first hand. What will the benefit for the citizens of the Free World for that (apart from the patches that these Cocoa developers will eventually submit)? If the main goal of the GNUstep project is to help some proprietary software developers to port their apps to yet another proprietary platform, I consider the project doomed. That's a rhetorical question, though, since I know that's not the goal of the GNUstep project. Or to cut a long story short: If you want to make people to use your stuff you must offer them a purpose to do so (for instance I don't use a flat iron since I have mostly tees and sweaters). I don't think that popularity should be chased at all cost and definitely not at the expense of providing more power to some developers to enhance non-free software. That's a bad thing. There are prominent exampels of other free software projects that put popularity as a higher priority than freedom and GNUstep should definitely avoid this. Cocoa developers have a huge need for a porting solution to windows This is their problem and entirely unrelated to the goals of the GNU Project. My need as a free software user is getting GNUstep to run fine on a GNU system, so I can migrate from GNOME to GNUstep at work (that means that it has to be suitable for basic business activity and more). And so that other users can setup their systems and stop tormenting me that GNUstep is a PITA. And as a surplus we also would get some more apps for GNUstep (even if some of those would be commercial ones). Free commercial apps are welcome, but not proprietary ones. It will be a contribution equal to zero (even a negative number) if someone ports a non-free app for GNUstep. , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. ` Just good will and appealing to it alone is not enough. Thats maybe makes you feel better but you won't reach a single target that way. Well, it will draw attention, at least. A lot of people will examine the website and some of them might find the project interesting. Others might discover that GNUstep is a liberation effort and may decide to join, just like the GNU Classpath has attracted developers (that are freedom fighters). And I really hope that it will attract users, they're desperately needed. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 12.09.2006, at 23:22, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote: however, you *should* keep in mind that originally GNUstep was supposed to be the development (and desktop?) environment of choice for the GNU operating system... This is still more or less true -- with GNOME being steadily absorbed by the proponents of the Open Source Campaign and slowly, but permanently diverting from its initial goals, GNUstep remains as a backup variant. I don't think that such an advertisement should ever mention Windows or any other proprietary platform -- after all, support for these systems is a bonus, but not an essential goal. The purpose is to replace all non-free software completely, not to enhance it. This is ideological thinking. But if you want to achieve an objective in practice you'll have to think practically and do practically things, like give something to get something (which is also an very good social behaviour). And it's the best if the "something" is actually something somebody needs and gets a benefit from. That "something" most Cocoa developers - e.g. the people that actually *use* some kind of OpenStep today - need would be some possibility to port their software to Windows. If we could offer that seamlessly we would gain a huge interest in that community without the need to convince people to use OpenStep in the first hand (e.g. explain to them why that obscure framework using an even more obscure language with "ugly square brackets" instead of just "standard C++" or "standard Java" would make sense to them). The GNU project *is* about ideological thinking, at least to some degree. Don't forget, you would not be able to use any GNU software if everything was only about commercial success and "practical things". I seriously question that GNUstep (or its advertising) should be focused on some (commercial, Cocoa) developers targeting Windows. This would be just wrong IMHO. As a side note, you don't have to convince Cocoa developers to use "this obscure framework using an even more obscure language" ;-) -Phil -- Philippe C.D. Robert http://www.nice.ch/~phip ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Sep 13, 2006, at 24:19, Yavor Doganov wrote: And as a surplus we also would get some more apps for GNUstep (even if some of those would be commercial ones). Free commercial apps are welcome, but not proprietary ones. Obviously this is non-sense. If proprietary apps wouldn't be welcome, GNUstep would be GPL, not LGPL. GNUstep is LGPL to explicitly allow for that. It will be a contribution equal to zero (even a negative number) if someone ports a non-free app for GNUstep. Again utter non-sense. Its quite an excellent contribution for plenty of reasons (not only the app itself, but also in the related framework improvements) until it gets possibly replaced by a free application. Helge -- Helge Hess http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
>>> , >>> | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free >>> | object-oriented framework for application development, and help it >>> | achieve the status of a complete and featured desktop environment. >>> ` >> >> Just good will and appealing to it alone is not enough. Thats maybe >> makes you feel better but you won't reach a single target that way. > > Well, it will draw attention, at least. A lot of people will examine > the website and some of them might find the project interesting. > Others might discover that GNUstep is a liberation effort and may > decide to join, just like the GNU Classpath has attracted developers > (that are freedom fighters). And I really hope that it will attract > users, they're desperately needed. I have to agree with Yavor here. I mean remember the advert/notice is supposed to go on the GNU website! People reading the advert will be exactly the kind of people who Yavor mentions, ie, GNU advocates, "freedom fighters" (or wannabe freedom fighters). :-) And I would really welcome a few more of those freedom fighters, because they are usually very committed to changing things for the better, and work hard. By the way, that's more or less how I got involved in GNUstep ... ;-) Thanks ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Am 13.09.2006 um 01:12 schrieb Philippe C.D. Robert: The GNU project *is* about ideological thinking, at least to some degree. Don't forget, you would not be able to use any GNU software if everything was only about commercial success and "practical things". I seriously question that GNUstep (or its advertising) should be focused on some (commercial, Cocoa) developers targeting Windows. This would be just wrong IMHO. Well, to some degree. But if you start to hold the pureness of your idea in higher regards than the goal you want to reach (freedom?) you're doomed. You start to go after the people that deviate from your idea. Just look at the former eastern block or at some religious movements (both had/have the official intention to make the world a better place) As a side note, you don't have to convince Cocoa developers to use "this obscure framework using an even more obscure language" ;-) Exactly what I said. You don't have to convince those. But you would have to convince all those C++ heads out there, which would be much more difficult as a start (a lot of programmers are somewhat religious about their favorite language, aren't we) than to do it step by step (hey, even our project has that step moniker in it's name ;-)) not overrating our possibilities (If you want to go cross a river you could try to walk over the water, start to build a bridge or just swim.) -Phil regards, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Helge Hess wrote: Free commercial apps are welcome, but not proprietary ones. Obviously this is non-sense. If proprietary apps wouldn't be welcome, GNUstep would be GPL, not LGPL. GNUstep is LGPL to explicitly allow for that. Let me rephrase it: the fact that the core GNU libraries are under LGPL does not mean that Opera, Skype and the NVidious drivers are contributions to the free software community that have to be welcomed. The strategy behind the LGPL is not to improve and expand the electronic colonization. You are free to develop such apps, just don't confuse the free people that they are a "contribution". We reject non-free software due to its unethical and antisocial nature and refuse to use it. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Am 13.09.2006 um 02:22 schrieb Nicola Pero: Just good will and appealing to it alone is not enough. Thats maybe makes you feel better but you won't reach a single target that way. Well, it will draw attention, at least. A lot of people will examine the website and some of them might find the project interesting. Others might discover that GNUstep is a liberation effort and may decide to join, just like the GNU Classpath has attracted developers (that are freedom fighters). And I really hope that it will attract users, they're desperately needed. I have to agree with Yavor here. I mean remember the advert/notice is supposed to go on the GNU website! People reading the advert will be exactly the kind of people who Yavor mentions, ie, GNU advocates, "freedom fighters" (or wannabe freedom fighters). :-) Perhaps a hint to the nature of GNUstep would be a good idea: , | Please contribute as user and developer to GNUstep[link], a free | object-oriented framework for application development in the heritage | of NeXTstep, and help it achieve the status of a complete and | featured desktop environment. ` This should be hint enough GNUstep isn't some fancy experimantal stuff but based on proven, solid design. Since NeXTstep is neither a current nor a target OS, freedom fighters won't be disattracted, still people with commercial stuff in mind have a reason to take a closer look. my $0.02 Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Is there any development regarding this? ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Adam Fedor wrote: > > Last I heard, I had given RMS what we wanted to say and he said he > would get some one to put it on the web site. But then I forgot about > it and I've lost the email from him. Perhaps I should follow up. I spoke with John Sullivan and he confirmed that he was supposed to do this, but was overloaded with other work. I committed the change (should appear in half an hour or so), but following his advice, I had to shorten the text a bit on the home page; it is directly linked to http://gnu.org/server/takeaction.html#gnustep. If anything's wrong, just let me know and I'll fix it ASAP. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
Last I heard, I had given RMS what we wanted to say and he said he would get some one to put it on the web site. But then I forgot about it and I've lost the email from him. Perhaps I should follow up. On Oct 20, 2006, at 6:18 AM, Yavor Doganov wrote: Is there any development regarding this? ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On Oct 20, 2006, at 3:13 PM, Yavor Doganov wrote: I spoke with John Sullivan and he confirmed that he was supposed to do this, but was overloaded with other work. I committed the change (should appear in half an hour or so), but following his advice, I had to shorten the text a bit on the home page; it is directly linked to http://gnu.org/server/takeaction.html#gnustep. If anything's wrong, just let me know and I'll fix it ASAP. Looks great!. Thanks. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Re: Advertisement for gnustep
On 9/10/06, Nicola Pero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Can we advertise ObjC + GNUstep as a 'truly free' replacement for Java ? > > That would be fun. ;-) > Not really, since you can perfectly develop highly complex multi- > platform GUI apps in Java, whereas this is far from realistic with > GNUstep, I am afraid. Good point ... I'm afraid I was thinking of the "server-side" Java. ;-) I mean, you know all those "enterprise applications" that have no GUI -- or that have a web interface as the user interface. :-) Thanks I would say it is safe to emphasize that GNUstep is a developement environment and mentions projects from both server-side and desktop-side (like Etoile or GWorkspace). I don't think it is necessay to mention the maturity of these projects on FSF web page since it is not going to be update frequently. It is the responsibity of each project to state their current progress. Yen-Ju ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
