Re: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal
Dear Sandra, I just wanted to let you know I have just received a copy of Constitucionalismo e Império which I had ordered. It seems most interesting and I am soon going to start reading it. I would like to thank you for the suggestion, which will enable me to learn a lot more about this most interesting subject. Best wishes Nuno Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 at 9:02 AM From: "sandra lobo" To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" Subject: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal Hello Nuno, I was not expressing any opinion on the reparation movement. I was replying to João Paulo's opinions that Angola needs the colonialists for being uncapable of governing itself and that Portuguese colonialism, even during Estado Novo, was not racist and promoted equality between peoples. I believe that you share the last opinion, in your evaluation of the historical profile of Portuguese colonialism, regarding which you see Estado Novo as a break. Amilcar Cabral affirmed that if an African could be President of the country most probably would have no reasons to want to become independent. For me that impossibility translates the basic nature of colonialism. Does this mean that we should abdicate from a complexified look at colonialism? I believe it should not. I think it is our duty as historians, as I believe it is to help the acknowledgement of the "others" in us and to help the promotion of hospitality and of social justice. Now, regarding your arguments. I do believe that the enunciation of a certain body of principles by a state is important and itself carries a transformative potential with practical consequences. That is why I think that we need to give importance to the rupture regarding the liberal and republican political tradition introduced by Estado Novo and the Acto Colonial, as while the firsts tried to solve, the tensions between colonial domination and the acknowledgement of universal of individual and collective rights of man inherited from the eighteenth century by conceptualizing a pluricontinental nation-state, the lasts basically refused such inheritance. The question lays on understanding if such contradiction was actually fully addressed by the liberals and republicans both constitutionally and in practice. I believe it was not - even at the level of principles the discussion was never closed and since the Berlin Conference its terms suffered a change with structural impact - although it helped local elites to convoke such principles and to develop a political consciousness. Among other studies, I do vividly counsel the reading of Cristina Nogueira da Silva's work, starting with Constitucionalismo e Império. A cidadania no Ultramar português (2009) and A Construção jurídica dos territórios ultramarinos portugueses no século XIX (2017). Your argument regarding the identitarian tool offered by Portuguese as a common language is interesting. As you know, who are actually working on that are the African postcolonial countries for a set of reasons. The discussion of "tribalism" would take us far... best wishes, Sandra Sandra Ataíde Lobo Home (gieipc-ip.org) https://praticasdahistoria.pt/ tmn. ++351 930690459 De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net Enviado: 5 de maio de 2024 09:37 Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com Assunto: Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal Sandra, You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do Indigenato" and the "Ato Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese overseas traditions. In the 19th century the so called "colonies" were always referred to as "Províncias Ultramarinas", which elected members to Parliament in Lisbon, and the minister in charge of them was always called "Secretário da Marinha e Ultramar", not "colonies". And the Ato Colonial, as well as the Estatuto do Indigenato, were abolished in 1961 because they did not fit our traditional relationship with the overseas. Yes, we colaborated with the slave trade and forced labour was not uncommon in the African territories, but our influence in those territories was not all negative. Speaking only of Angola - where I lived for three years - I have no doubt that the strong feeling of national identity, the lack of tribal strife, the benefits of a common language, the strong economy, were very much due to the way we ruled Angola for over 400 years. Yes, colonization, any colonization, is a vile violation of people's rights, and we should not try to ever justify it. But, in the end, I believe we did more good than evil. And while the evil part remains as part of history, the good things are helping to build solid, prosperous countries. No reparations are needed, only the recognition of the evil thi
Re: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal
Dear Sandra, Thank you so much for your well thought reply to my message. I will definitely try to find and read the two works you mentioned. Best wishes Nuno Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 at 9:02 AM From: "sandra lobo" To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" Subject: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal Hello Nuno, I was not expressing any opinion on the reparation movement. I was replying to João Paulo's opinions that Angola needs the colonialists for being uncapable of governing itself and that Portuguese colonialism, even during Estado Novo, was not racist and promoted equality between peoples. I believe that you share the last opinion, in your evaluation of the historical profile of Portuguese colonialism, regarding which you see Estado Novo as a break. Amilcar Cabral affirmed that if an African could be President of the country most probably would have no reasons to want to become independent. For me that impossibility translates the basic nature of colonialism. Does this mean that we should abdicate from a complexified look at colonialism? I believe it should not. I think it is our duty as historians, as I believe it is to help the acknowledgement of the "others" in us and to help the promotion of hospitality and of social justice. Now, regarding your arguments. I do believe that the enunciation of a certain body of principles by a state is important and itself carries a transformative potential with practical consequences. That is why I think that we need to give importance to the rupture regarding the liberal and republican political tradition introduced by Estado Novo and the Acto Colonial, as while the firsts tried to solve, the tensions between colonial domination and the acknowledgement of universal of individual and collective rights of man inherited from the eighteenth century by conceptualizing a pluricontinental nation-state, the lasts basically refused such inheritance. The question lays on understanding if such contradiction was actually fully addressed by the liberals and republicans both constitutionally and in practice. I believe it was not - even at the level of principles the discussion was never closed and since the Berlin Conference its terms suffered a change with structural impact - although it helped local elites to convoke such principles and to develop a political consciousness. Among other studies, I do vividly counsel the reading of Cristina Nogueira da Silva's work, starting with Constitucionalismo e Império. A cidadania no Ultramar português (2009) and A Construção jurídica dos territórios ultramarinos portugueses no século XIX (2017). Your argument regarding the identitarian tool offered by Portuguese as a common language is interesting. As you know, who are actually working on that are the African postcolonial countries for a set of reasons. The discussion of "tribalism" would take us far... best wishes, Sandra Sandra Ataíde Lobo Home (gieipc-ip.org) https://praticasdahistoria.pt/ tmn. ++351 930690459 De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net Enviado: 5 de maio de 2024 09:37 Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com Assunto: Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal Sandra, You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do Indigenato" and the "Ato Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese overseas traditions. In the 19th century the so called "colonies" were always referred to as "Províncias Ultramarinas", which elected members to Parliament in Lisbon, and the minister in charge of them was always called "Secretário da Marinha e Ultramar", not "colonies". And the Ato Colonial, as well as the Estatuto do Indigenato, were abolished in 1961 because they did not fit our traditional relationship with the overseas. Yes, we colaborated with the slave trade and forced labour was not uncommon in the African territories, but our influence in those territories was not all negative. Speaking only of Angola - where I lived for three years - I have no doubt that the strong feeling of national identity, the lack of tribal strife, the benefits of a common language, the strong economy, were very much due to the way we ruled Angola for over 400 years. Yes, colonization, any colonization, is a vile violation of people's rights, and we should not try to ever justify it. But, in the end, I believe we did more good than evil. And while the evil part remains as part of history, the good things are helping to build solid, prosperous countries. No reparations are needed, only the recognition of the evil things we were responsible for, which we do. Marcelo should have kept his mouth shut... Best wishes Nuno Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 8:44 AM From: "sand
RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal
Hello Nuno, I was not expressing any opinion on the reparation movement. I was replying to João Paulo's opinions that Angola needs the colonialists for being uncapable of governing itself and that Portuguese colonialism, even during Estado Novo, was not racist and promoted equality between peoples. I believe that you share the last opinion, in your evaluation of the historical profile of Portuguese colonialism, regarding which you see Estado Novo as a break. Amilcar Cabral affirmed that if an African could be President of the country most probably would have no reasons to want to become independent. For me that impossibility translates the basic nature of colonialism. Does this mean that we should abdicate from a complexified look at colonialism? I believe it should not. I think it is our duty as historians, as I believe it is to help the acknowledgement of the "others" in us and to help the promotion of hospitality and of social justice. Now, regarding your arguments. I do believe that the enunciation of a certain body of principles by a state is important and itself carries a transformative potential with practical consequences. That is why I think that we need to give importance to the rupture regarding the liberal and republican political tradition introduced by Estado Novo and the Acto Colonial, as while the firsts tried to solve, the tensions between colonial domination and the acknowledgement of universal of individual and collective rights of man inherited from the eighteenth century by conceptualizing a pluricontinental nation-state, the lasts basically refused such inheritance. The question lays on understanding if such contradiction was actually fully addressed by the liberals and republicans both constitutionally and in practice. I believe it was not - even at the level of principles the discussion was never closed and since the Berlin Conference its terms suffered a change with structural impact - although it helped local elites to convoke such principles and to develop a political consciousness. Among other studies, I do vividly counsel the reading of Cristina Nogueira da Silva's work, starting with Constitucionalismo e Império. A cidadania no Ultramar português (2009) and A Construção jurídica dos territórios ultramarinos portugueses no século XIX (2017). Your argument regarding the identitarian tool offered by Portuguese as a common language is interesting. As you know, who are actually working on that are the African postcolonial countries for a set of reasons. The discussion of "tribalism" would take us far... best wishes, Sandra Sandra Ataíde Lobo [cid:0089eddc-5c50-420d-be47-6a6eadf3fb30][cid:4ccdb18f-b890-41d8-9639-1aea6ff7d885] [cid:62b3a0ae-7084-4514-8349-10fd25e35285] [cid:f50ac323-91ec-4ac0-bb23-efab539fda50] Home (gieipc-ip.org)<https://www.gieipc-ip.org/> https://praticasdahistoria.pt/ tmn. ++351 930690459 De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net Enviado: 5 de maio de 2024 09:37 Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com Assunto: Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal Sandra, You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do Indigenato" and the "Ato Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese overseas traditions. In the 19th century the so called "colonies" were always referred to as "Províncias Ultramarinas", which elected members to Parliament in Lisbon, and the minister in charge of them was always called "Secretário da Marinha e Ultramar", not "colonies". And the Ato Colonial, as well as the Estatuto do Indigenato, were abolished in 1961 because they did not fit our traditional relationship with the overseas. Yes, we colaborated with the slave trade and forced labour was not uncommon in the African territories, but our influence in those territories was not all negative. Speaking only of Angola - where I lived for three years - I have no doubt that the strong feeling of national identity, the lack of tribal strife, the benefits of a common language, the strong economy, were very much due to the way we ruled Angola for over 400 years. Yes, colonization, any colonization, is a vile violation of people's rights, and we should not try to ever justify it. But, in the end, I believe we did more good than evil. And while the evil part remains as part of history, the good things are helping to build solid, prosperous countries. No reparations are needed, only the recognition of the evil things we were responsible for, which we do. Marcelo should have kept his mouth shut... Best wishes Nuno Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 8:44 AM From: "sandra lobo" To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" Subject: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of P
Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal
Sandra, You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do Indigenato" and the "Ato Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese overseas traditions. In the 19th century the so called "colonies" were always referred to as "Províncias Ultramarinas", which elected members to Parliament in Lisbon, and the minister in charge of them was always called "Secretário da Marinha e Ultramar", not "colonies". And the Ato Colonial, as well as the Estatuto do Indigenato, were abolished in 1961 because they did not fit our traditional relationship with the overseas. Yes, we colaborated with the slave trade and forced labour was not uncommon in the African territories, but our influence in those territories was not all negative. Speaking only of Angola - where I lived for three years - I have no doubt that the strong feeling of national identity, the lack of tribal strife, the benefits of a common language, the strong economy, were very much due to the way we ruled Angola for over 400 years. Yes, colonization, any colonization, is a vile violation of people's rights, and we should not try to ever justify it. But, in the end, I believe we did more good than evil. And while the evil part remains as part of history, the good things are helping to build solid, prosperous countries. No reparations are needed, only the recognition of the evil things we were responsible for, which we do. Marcelo should have kept his mouth shut... Best wishes Nuno Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 8:44 AM From: "sandra lobo" To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" Subject: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal Hello João Paulo, I totally agree with you. In 1975, 85% of the population in Angola did not face the burden of knowing to read and write and enjoyed the benefit of until 1974 of being protected from the of terrorists at the service of unsound ambitions of those who are now colonizing them. Until 1961, the Estado Novo cared so much for their development that even offered them a special statute, that Angolans still lament to have fallen, the famous "Estatuto do Indigenato" applicable to the black population that was still not able to understand the benefits of Portuguese civilizational mission due to its backwardness. The protection they enjoyed, according to the 1954 statute, forced by the international devious pressure, still included the salvation of the mission to educating the natives to the value of work, the protection of their unpreparenees to take decisions on their own life like have the State regulating the right to change residency, the right to have prison sentences transformed in forced labor, to compulsory serve at the army to take deviant fellows back to the right track, all that viewing the ultimate aim in the mind of any Angolan, that of becoming a citizen with the privilege of having a special ID citizens card where his/her conditions to hold it where especified. They indeed, need us Portuguese to go back there. Best wishes, Sandra De: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com em nome de Joao Paulo Cota Enviado: 4 de maio de 2024 23:55 Para: albert...@sapo.pt ; goa-research-net@googlegroups.com Assunto: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal Dear Alberto, I am aware of the struggles of the locals with the Portuguese colonial government. However I was a kid then and I stand by my words as that was what I had experienced. There was equality in school where I studied (two of my best mates was a white and a black) and we were three always inseparable. At work, my father did have friends of both colours and noticed nothing wrong with race. My mother had house staff, but we had treated them as family. The sad thing about Angola was not about Portuguese rule but about the 30 year civil war that commenced soon after the Portuguese left the place. That showed how pathetic and stupid Angolan natives are, they have independence and then they go all out to kill each other - instead of enjoying freedom. And then elect rulers who loot the country in every conceivable way, father and daughter. Fast forward 2024, Angolans are leaving and going to Portugal. Why, missing the colonialists? Or perhaps being incompetent and unable to govern themselves? I am not trying to change any history. Angola's story is very sad and hurts me deeply as Angolan/Portuguese/Goan. It should had been a great nation today, but people there do not have the capability to govern themselves. They are now under economic colonialists China rule and nobody seems to be making noise about it. Sorry to say but you need the colonialists back to take care of the country, it has gone to the dogs, it was much better pre-1975 Regards, Joao Paulo From: albert...@sapo.pt Sent: 04 May 2024 13:42 To: goa-research-net@googlegroups.co
