RE: [Goanet] Re: Shroud of Turin and the Shredding of SFX
I wonder if Alfred understands much of what is posted on Goanet. If he does, maybe we can ask for some specifics of what he thinks about a thread. --- Alfred de Tavares [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great, Gilbert! Alfred de T. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org To: goanet@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Re: Shroud of Turin and the Shredding of SFX Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:35:43 -0500 Jose, Mario, Eddie and Kevin, Now that you smart guys have shredded the Shroud, Will you put the Goan Soupa De Pedra with a little lime into the turin? :=)) Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Re: Shroud of Turin and the Shredding of SFX
Gilbert, I don't recall making a single comment about the shroud. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jose, Mario, Eddie and Kevin, Now that you smart guys have shredded the Shroud, Will you put the Goan Soupa De Pedra with a little lime into the turin? :=)) Regards, GL
RE: [Goanet] Re: Shroud of Turin and the Shredding of SFX
Great, Gilbert! Alfred de T. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org To: goanet@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Re: Shroud of Turin and the Shredding of SFX Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:35:43 -0500 Jose, Mario, Eddie and Kevin, Now that you smart guys have shredded the Shroud, Will you put the Goan Soupa De Pedra with a little lime into the turin? :=)) Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
Eddie, Please stick to some civilized form of debate language. First you quote someone who claimed that St. FX was preserved because he was stuffed in a coffin and shipped with other cargo from Japan to Goa, then you bring in the issue of mummification, when any Goan would know that St. FX was not mummified, now you introduce embalming, when there is no record of St. FX being embalmed. And you have the nerve to call me pathetic? Pathetic is what you see in your mirror every morning. --- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks, Pathetic Mario! When his back is to the wall, he resorts to deleting his earlier claims and clowning! Earlier he had written: I am not aware of any human corpse that would not decompose in the tropical climate between Japan and Goa in the hot and humid cargo hold of a ship, in those days prior to refrigeration and embalming. So could he enlighten us as to when embalming was introduced? Cheers, Eddie
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
Folks, Pathetic Mario! When his back is to the wall, he resorts to deleting his earlier claims and clowning! Earlier he had written: I am not aware of any human corpse that would not decompose in the tropical climate between Japan and Goa in the hot and humid cargo hold of a ship, in those days prior to refrigeration and embalming. So could he enlighten us as to when embalming was introduced? Cheers, Eddie
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
Mario, I am confused! You write that my scepticism is understandable but yet you do not have any shadow of doubt regarding your earlier stance. Cast off your blinkers!! I also suggest that you do a little reading of how the Egyptians embalmed their corpses. I do not claim to be an expert in this field but there is a scientific study, the Quarterly Review of 1871, that has been published. I have managed to track down an original copy which was on sale and it is in the post to me. Cheers, Eddie Fernandes = Mario observes: Eddie, With all due respect to Mr. McCrystal and your understandable skepticism, a speculative account written 300 years after the event is hardly more credible than the original version written by actual observers. I am not aware of any human corpse that would not decompose in the tropical climate between Japan and Goa in the hot and humid cargo hold of a ship, in those days prior to refrigeration and embalming. Is such preservation were possible there would be many such cases and the case of St. Francis Xavier would not have been considered unusual.
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
--- Eddie Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I now introduce a sceptical note. In the 1880s a more prosaic version, based on documentary and scientific evidence, was published in the Quarterly Review and then generally ignored. It suggested that Father Xavier's entrails and brain had been removed on the instructions of the Portuguese shipowner, James Pereira, who further ordered that the corpse be stuffed with part of his cargo to preserve it. If true, this would explain the suspension of decay and the agreeable odour. Pereira's motive in faking the miracle was to retain influence at Court by claiming the protection of a glorified saint. Mario observes: Eddie, With all due respect to Mr. McCrystal and your understandable skepticism, a speculative account written 300 years after the event is hardly more credible than the original version written by actual observers. I am not aware of any human corpse that would not decompose in the tropical climate between Japan and Goa in the hot and humid cargo hold of a ship, in those days prior to refrigeration and embalming. Is such preservation were possible there would be many such cases and the case of St. Francis Xavier would not have been considered unusual.
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
- Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin Is St. Francis Xavier's undecomposed body a fake? .. Hi Mario, You will know about taxidermy. Could this be the explanation for the state of the body? Book Review by Cal McCrystal of The Jesuits. By Jonathan Wright Source: Independent On Sunday (UK) Publication date: 15 February 2004 Excerpt: ...Unaccountably, the most intriguing episode of cerebral penetration and removal is not given in this otherwise admirable account. It concerns Francis Xavier, a tall, spare, well-born recruit to the new Society of Jesus, founded in 1534 by Ignatius of Loyola. Wright describes the circumstances of Xavier's death in 1552 on the island of Sancian, off the Chinese mainland, which he had reached on a ship loaded with a cargo of pepper and other spices. In his sacerdotal robes he was placed in a tomb much too small for his size (mallets were used to force him in). Many months later, the body was exhumed and taken to Goa where witnesses testified to, instead of decomposition, the clothes entire, and the colour as that of a living man, and exhaling a pleasant odour. This was hailed as a miracle. Sainthood was bestowed. The inspiring tale uplifts Roman Catholics to this day. I now introduce a sceptical note. In the 1880s a more prosaic version, based on documentary and scientific evidence, was published in the Quarterly Review and then generally ignored. It suggested that Father Xavier's entrails and brain had been removed on the instructions of the Portuguese shipowner, James Pereira, who further ordered that the corpse be stuffed with part of his cargo to preserve it. If true, this would explain the suspension of decay and the agreeable odour. Pereira's motive in faking the miracle was to retain influence at Court by claiming the protection of a glorified saint. .. After reading the article, I tracked down, emailed and then phoned Cal McCrystal who was a senior journalist on the staff of The Observer and who happens to live quite near to me. I asked him for the source of his claims. He told me that they were: 1. Quarterly Review Vol. 260, 1871. The hundred years of Christianity in Japan 2. William W Ireland: The Blot upon the Brain, p. 165-188. 1843, 2nd ed. Edinburgh, Bell. I was given to understand that the Church suppressed these publications. Check them out! Cheers, Eddie Fernandes
[Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
Experts on the TODAY show on NBC TV channel this morning, say that pollen found on the shroud were only found from plants in Palestine 2,000 years ago and are doing further tests to check this theory out. However, I do not think this issue should affect one's personal faith or Christianity for that matter. Janette D. Souza Washington DC, USA
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
Natural mummification is NOT a miracle http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/forensics/taph/bonemummy.html For those who would like to believe otherwise... http://pweb.sophia.ac.jp/~d-mccoy/xavier/newman3.html Kevin Original Message: - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:04:01 -0800 (PST) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], goanet@goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin Is St. Francis Xavier's undecomposed body a fake? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The shroud of Turin has been proven to be a fake of the image of Christ but it is a genuine image of a human that was inadvertently created when a Templar Knight was tortured and crucified during the early 1300's according to Freemasonry historians Chris Knight and Robert Lomas in their book 'The Second Messiah' http://www.robertlomas.com/Books/openframesecondmessiah.html Kevin Saldanha mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
Is St. Francis Xavier's undecomposed body a fake? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The shroud of Turin has been proven to be a fake of the image of Christ but it is a genuine image of a human that was inadvertently created when a Templar Knight was tortured and crucified during the early 1300's according to Freemasonry historians Chris Knight and Robert Lomas in their book 'The Second Messiah' http://www.robertlomas.com/Books/openframesecondmessiah.html Kevin Saldanha --- Santosh Helekar wrote: P.S. The Shroud of Turin has been conclusively proven to be a fake. --- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
[Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin - FAKE Shroud or FAKE studies?
Santosh Helekar wrote: The Shroud of Turin has been conclusively proven to be a fake. Kevin Saldanha wrote: The shroud of Turin has been proven to be a fake of the image of Christ In support of his contention, Kevin quotes Freemasonry historians Chris Knight and Robert Lomas and places the image as having been inadvertently created when a Templar Knight was tortured and crucified during the early 1300's jc response: I don't know IF the Turin Shroud is or is not what it is purported to be. I know that Santosh Helekar is a scientist who will apply critical scientific reasoning to determine the veracity of reports, studies, etc I don't know IF Kevin Saldanha is a scientist who will apply critical scientific reasoning to determine the veracity of reports, studies, etc I also do NOT know IF Chris Knight and Robert Lomas are scientists. So, I ask ...those who might know for sure HOW do you KNOW that th Shroud of Turn is a FAKE? For those with general non-scientific minds like me, here is material for primary reading: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4210369.stm Turin shroud 'older than thought' Tests in 1988 concluded the cloth was a medieval hoax. The Shroud of Turin is MUCH OLDER than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a PEER-REVIEWED journal. good wishes jc _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Re: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
Hi Kevin I did see the Shroud in Turin fairly recent. Out of sheer curiosity I spent at least half an hour peering at it from close, from several angles. Fortunately, there were few other people around at the time and viewing was not unduly obstructed as I had expected. There is so much written about the Shroud for believers and non believers. I am highly sceptical about such relics but will respect the beliefs of others. Because of the current winter Olympics, the lovely city of Turin will be full and no doubt, the Shroud will attract many visitors. Cornel - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:47 PM Subject: [Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin The shroud of Turin has been proven to be a fake of the image of Christ but it is a genuine image of a human that was inadvertently created when a Templar Knight was tortured and crucified during the early 1300's according to Freemasonry historians Chris Knight and Robert Lomas in their book 'The Second Messiah' http://www.robertlomas.com/Books/openframesecondmessiah.html Kevin Saldanha --- Santosh Helekar wrote: P.S. The Shroud of Turin has been conclusively proven to be a fake. --- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
[Goanet] RE: Shroud of Turin
The shroud of Turin has been proven to be a fake of the image of Christ but it is a genuine image of a human that was inadvertently created when a Templar Knight was tortured and crucified during the early 1300's according to Freemasonry historians Chris Knight and Robert Lomas in their book 'The Second Messiah' http://www.robertlomas.com/Books/openframesecondmessiah.html Kevin Saldanha --- Santosh Helekar wrote: P.S. The Shroud of Turin has been conclusively proven to be a fake. --- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
