Re: [Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## On Thursday, 4 Nov 2004, Dr Jose Colaco wrote: It is my position that fruadulent Certificates showing 'proof of domicile' are being issued to these mothers. No rocket scientist required to confirm the FAKE certificate stuff going on in Amchem Goem. You don't have to be a migrant mother to get a fake certificate. You don't even have to be a mother either. My point is that there is simply no advantage to having your baby born in Goa. You are juxtaposing an international reality with a situation within a federal country, where anyone is free to travel and settle down anywhere (except in certain areas of the North-East). I just fail to understand the connection you're trying to draw up here, and then defend it by raising various other issues. You are right when you talk about fake certificates being issued. But you are mixing up matters thoroughly in order to arrive at an anti-migrant conclusion. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 24 16:06:57 2004 Here is something which amche nidun-aslelle Goecar might find worth noting: There are a good number of pregnant women in Karnataka & Hyderabad who pack their khatli-potli and travel to Goa for delivery. Not that the hospital facilities in Goa are good (they might coincidentally be) - but for an incentive allowance paid for by the "Chairmen of the Voting Banks" After delivery, the next stop is the Mamlatdar. A ration Card later - they then become eligible (along with their family - with Panchayat residence certificates of course) for MEDICLAIM covered Health Care. Goans pay taxes.and guess who gets the benefit of MEDICLAIM - besides the politicians? The one thing I've learnt over time is that it's hard to stay on track in a discussion with a JC (as is also the case with a BC, i.e. "Bernado Colaco") ;-) FN
[Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mr. Fred Noronha says:< I would still question the claims that migrant women come to Goa to deliver their babies because of the benefits they would gain from being born here.> I repeat that claim. Hopefully, someone closer to South Goa than I am, and versant with the Health scene - will write to clarify or negate the claim. == FN: It is my position that fruadulent Certificates showing 'proof of domicile' are being issued to these mothers. No rocket scientist required to confirm the FAKE certificate stuff going on in Amchem Goem. == FN:< That there are manipulations within the system is true, but this has nothing to do with the argument that you are building up> Manipulations is right! . == FN:< aren't some 'opinion leaders' fuelling Goan chauvinism against the migrant, using a whole set of at least untruths and half-truths, if not blatant lies?> From my perspective, the ONLY ones who can LEAD opinions in Goa are the GOA JOURNOS. Thus far, a good number of the JOURNOS are fence sitting. The few exceptions include Rajan Narayan. Wonder what you think of his scripts. Wonder whether Mr. Noronha has written anything about this topic. Does he agree with Mr. Narayan? Does he disagree with Mr. Narayan? jc (jose colaco NOT Bernado Colaco) Whaasup Mr. Noronha, Still can't get over the fact that You have been "going to the Goa Assembly for 15 years - and yet, you have not had the opportunity to speak there" ? Await you response. What will it be ? Cuss or Ignore. Let's see. (;-) == please visit "NEW" on The Goan Forum at http://www.colaco.net Recommended Goa related sites 1. http://www.goa-world.com 2. http://www.SuperGoa.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/
Re: [Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Dr Jose Colaco wrote: re: #3: Arguments aside, would Mr. Noronha care to advise us of the (available) statistics of this delivery-related migration to Goa? The Belgaum-hospital scene has reportedly raced AHEAD in the PRIVATE sector. The facilities being used by these delivery-related migrants in Goa, are PUBLICly funded. Accordingly, I submit that the argument put forth by Mr. Noronha is a non-starter. In any event, The standard of Hospital Care was NOT the primary concern - expressed by me wrt this topic. It was the Vote-Bank, MEDICLAIM ..AND .. the FUNDING for MIGRANT HEALTH CARE that I raised. Perhaps someone who lives closer to South Goa, than I do, will give some input - preferably someone who works in the Public Health sector in South Goa. Lengthy arguments have come up on this subject, and a lot of other side issues have cropped up. Inspite of this, I would still question the claims that migrant women come to Goa to deliver their babies because of the benefits they would gain from being born here. This is simply untrue. Benefits in Goa are *not* dependent on the place of birth, but a certificate showing 'proof of domicile'. It doesn't matter where one is born. In this background, how would your argument hold? You've got your arguments simply badly confused (see below); getting a ration-card, residence certificate and Mediclaim has nothing whatsoever to do with the place of birth, but, if anything, with domicile. That there are manipulations within the system is true, but this has nothing to do with the argument that you are building up. FN PS: The wider point I'm trying to make here is that while the Parrikars, Parulekars (and others more subtly) have worked on vote-bank politics, aren't some 'opinion leaders' fuelling Goan chauvinism against the migrant, using a whole set of at least untruths and half-truths, if not blatant lies? From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 24 16:06:57 2004 There are a good number of pregnant women in Karnataka & Hyderabad who pack their khatli-potli and travel to Goa for delivery. Not that the hospital facilities in Goa are good (they might coincidentally be) - but for an incentive allowance paid for by the "Chairmen of the Voting Banks" After delivery, the next stop is the Mamlatdar. A ration Card later - they then become eligible (along with their family - with Panchayat residence certificates of course) for MEDICLAIM covered Health Care. Frederick Noronha (FN)Nr Convent Saligao 403511 GoaIndia Freelance Journalist P: 832-2409490 M: 9822122436 http://www.livejournal.com/users/goalinks http://fn.swiki.net http://www.ryze.com/go/fredericknoronha http://fn-floss.notlong.com Difficulties to send email across? Write to fredericknoronha at vsnl.net
[Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## In reponse to this from me (following Aloysius' posting): My dear Aloysius, Yes, the doors are closing all over the wrld because of Desi Abuse of systems. However, I believe that babies born to migrant workers (WORKING in Goa and paying their share of the taxes) SHOULD receive the same benefits Goans are entitled to. Mr. Frederick Noronha (FN) wrote thus on Wed Nov 3 03:19:02 2004: #1: #2: <(iv) Generally, the basis for discrimination is domicile, which is 15 years in Goa's case -- at least on paper. (Interesting to note here that a stringent application of such rules would work against many expat Goans themselves, as is happening in the case of those based in the Gulf. But that's another point.)> #3: #4: Dear Mr. Noronha re: #1: Please refer to context in Aloysius' post and then mine. The only person who might be in danger of confusing issues and apples - is you, Mr. Noronha. -- re: #2: Once the rule is fair, and fairly applied, it matters little if it works against any particular group. If it is unfair, there should be public pressure to change that rule. The Press has a role to play in the education of the public & in the application of pressure on the politicians. -- re: #3: Arguments aside, would Mr. Noronha care to advise us of the (available) statistics of this delivery-related migration to Goa? The Belgaum-hospital scene has reportedly raced AHEAD in the PRIVATE sector. The facilities being used by these delivery-related migrants in Goa, are PUBLICly funded. Accordingly, I submit that the argument put forth by Mr. Noronha is a non-starter. In any event, The standard of Hospital Care was NOT the primary concern - expressed by me wrt this topic. It was the Vote-Bank, MEDICLAIM ..AND .. the FUNDING for MIGRANT HEALTH CARE that I raised. Perhaps someone who lives closer to South Goa, than I do, will give some input - preferably someone who works in the Public Health sector in South Goa. Nothing wrong with assisting ANYONE in need (or for that matter, IFFI)...BUT one first needs to look after the needs of one's own. Charity, I submit, begins at home. --- re: #4: Nothing misleading in the word "taxes". IF one lives in Goa long enough, one will have paid enough of TAXES. As you have rightly pointed out, a LOT of the taxes are indirect. BTW: What happens to the funds which are collected - is anyone's guess. Wonder if Mr. Noronha has written anything about it in the Goa or International Press juss moi jc please visit "NEW" on The Goan Forum at http://www.colaco.net Recommended Goa related sites 1. http://www.goa-world.com 2. http://www.SuperGoa.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/
Re: [Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Dr. Jose Colaco wrote: My dear Aloysius, Yes, the doors are closing all over the wrld because of Desi Abuse of systems. However, I believe that babies born to migrant workers (WORKING in Goa and paying their share of the taxes) SHOULD receive the same benefits Goans are entitled to. Are we confusing issues here? (i) What's happening at the international level isn't quite comparable with what happens *within* different regions of a country. (ii) Comparing the two would probably be inapt, because of two reasons. People can travel within a country without any restrictions. Secondly, the economic disparity would not be that sharp, as it is at the international level. (iii) AFAIK, where a person is born is immaterial in an Indian context, in most cases. (iv) Generally, the basis for discrimination is domicile, which is 15 years in Goa's case -- at least on paper. (Interesting to note here that a stringent application of such rules would work against many expat Goans themselves, as is happening in the case of those based in the Gulf. But that's another point.) In such a context, the argument that people come to Goa to have their children born here would be untrue. Maybe they came because Goa once had better hospitals than the surrounding districts (today, places like Belgaum have caught up and raced ahead). Paying "their share of taxes" can also be a misleading argument, in a context of low tax compliance. Some years back, the number of tax-payers in India was just a million or two (though now efforts to increase compliance are being stepped up.) A lot of taxes here are indirect taxes, which fall probably more heavily on the poor. Maybe someone more qualified on this subject could enlighten us. FN
[Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Aloysius D'Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Apparently, migrants who deliver their babies in Goa -- the babies are now being classified as Goans thus entitling the parents to benefits of plots of land and free medicare Should Goa also close its doors to such migrant babies? > My dear Aloysius, Yes, the doors are closing all over the wrld because of Desi Abuse of systems. However, I believe that babies born to migrant workers (WORKING in Goa and paying their share of the taxes ) SHOULD receive the same benefits Goans are entitled to. My point is related to Abuse of the system. And abuse which is being encouraged (I am reliably informed) by this BJP Govt. in an effort to dilute the MINORITY (read Catholic) vote in South Goa. A similar thing happened during the Bandodkar regime where qualified Goans were denied jobs with the help of a technical monouvre. (please visit http://www.colaco.net/1/letdown.htm and read towards the middle of that page ) There was also a short lived attempt (by Housing chap called Behl) to deny Goans from the ability to purchase property in Goa. After a good old cut-ass, he was called back to Delhi. good to hear from you and Greetings from "Halfway around the world" (:-) jose please visit "NEW" on The Goan Forum at http://www.colaco.net Recommended Goa related sites 1. http://www.goa-world.com 2. http://www.SuperGoa.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/
[Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Hullo Ema and Jose, There was also a recent Court ruling in Australia about an Indian who was posted in Australia and who tried to claim Australian citizenship for his child born there -- Australian Citizenship was denied to the child Apparently, migrants who deliver their babies in Goa -- the babies are now being classified as Goans thus entitling the parents to benefits of plots of land and free medicare Should Goa also close its doors to such migrantbabies? Cheers Aloysius
[Goanet]Of Budgets, Charity, Vote Bank politics, Exploitation of a situation & Backlash
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Every State or Country has a Budget to work with. The populace elects the representatives to prepare the budget and spend the people's money wisely. The money is from TAXATION. Taxes are paid in or collected from citizens and the services they provide or utilize. ALL prudent budgets (including prudent individual budgets) - there are four parts: (1) Necessary expenditure (2) further development and investment (3) Savings for a rainy day (4) charity. Charity is what one does after one has met the responsibilities to ones citizens / residents : e.g. Good Roads, Public Safety, Health Care, Adequate funding for Schools, Clean Environment etc Each year, Thousands of desis travel to Canada & the US to JUST deliver their newborns. These children are Canadians and US citizens by birth - as they should be. Of late, the US immigration authorities have been clamping down (at the airports) on pregnant women trying to enter the US on visit visas. Genuine visitors and those genuinely in need of family support during the birth of a newborn suffer in the bargain. Ireland was one of those accomodating and welcoming countries. It is a pity that ALL have to suffer because of the pregnant women who were exploiting the situation. The new Irish Law will DENY automatic citizenship for newborns of mothers who have been in Eire legally for less than 4 years. That is draconian. One could understand less that 9 months. BUT less than 4 years? This how genuine people suffer from the actions of abusers. jose colaco ps: and this from the latest edition of the Goan Observer AND A FEW stray thoughts on the diabolical conspiracy on the part of the BJP to change the demography of the constituencies, particularly those in South Goa. The BJP had obviously decided that the best way of marginalising the minorities is to woo the backward classes and the migrants. IN THE CASE of Goa the BJP government has developed a sudden enthusiasm for implementing the programme. Because of its enormous potential for changing the demographic structure of minority dominated constituencies. To offset the minority vote bank of the Congress the BJP is determined to create a backward class/migrant vote bank. Mischievously the Parrikar government has declared that all those who have a domicile certificate would be eligible for allotment of plots. No doubt the Mamlatdars and Talathis will be instructed to provide all migrants with domicile certificates even if they have only recently arrived in Goa. Goans will (not) benefit from it, because one of the primary criterions is that the intended beneficiary should not own either a house or land in Goa. = The lengths some people go to in order to get STATUS in another place (1) Press Trust of India Posted online: Thursday, October 28, 2004 Washington, October 28: An Indian man in the US allegedly married his sister while his wife married his brother as part of a "phony wedding" scheme so that the man's siblings could evade immigration waiting periods, a media report said. (2) DUBLIN, Ireland (Reuters) -- The Irish have voted "yes" in a referendum on citizenship, final results showed on Sunday, giving the government a green light to crack down on immigrants it says EXPLOIT THE LAW to get into the European Union. Dublin says non-EU nationals come to give birth in Ireland so they can then claim residency as parents of children who automatically become Irish citizens. ...nearly 80 percent of voters in Friday's referendum backed a government proposal to amend the rules on citizenship in the constitution. Provisional results showed 20.9 percent opposing the proposal on a turnout of 57.4 percent. The result means Ireland, the last country in the EU to offer citizenship automatically to all children born on its soil, is almost certain to withdraw that right later this year. The government will now draft new citizenship legislation, expected to be approved swiftly by parliament. The centrist administration of Prime Minister Bertie Ahern called the referendum to close "a loophole." During the referendum campaign, newspapers highlighted the cases of heavily pregnant women who have arrived in Ireland just weeks before giving birth to take advantage of the law. One senior doctor told of a woman who flew to Ireland from South Africa just 36 hours before giving birth to quads. The government said the number of non-nationals born in Irish hospitals has increased nearly six-fold since 1998 and now accounts for 29 percent of total hospital births. According to one major Dub
