Re: [Goanet]Re. Caste... and all that- especially in Marriages
Appologies Friends ! * If you are really against casteism, maybe you should participate in educating people that this is a dastardly discriminatory system * wrote Mario Mario , I believe sums up the argument very well , mere words without any action is like a dripping tap water dripping and ending up in the wast ocean without much of an effect. What we need is education , Goan organizations , NGO's etc., etc., all over the world should get involved in organizing - * discussion meetings * to address these issues. ( that is - if they feel that the Caste system is unacceptable ) I am sure Cornel could lead by example - here in the UK. I am sure Gabe will give him all the support. I am sure many of my learned and more articulate Friends on this forum will add their comments to my thoughts. I am often reminded by many Goans - I come in contact from time to time , that we Goans are tired of WORDS - but are hungry for ACTION ... Lets JUST DO IT ! rene barreto GOAN SOLIDARITY 2005 - 20th of August 2005 === --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Neil Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My opinion is that caste can often (not always) > act > > as a good first filter towards finding a suitable > > spouse > > > > In general, I am personally against casteism, > > > Mario replies: > Neil, > If you are really against casteism, maybe you should > participate in educating people that this is a > dastardly discriminatory system, period, and refrain > from making statements that give it credence, like > it's use as "a good first filter". > > We're talking about people here, not dirty water. --- My apologies to the many of you who have written to me , I will reply as soon as I get my internet connection , I am without an Internet connection at home , I have been promised that I would get one .for the last one and a half month. We too - have our problems here in the UK - like you guys in Goa. ) Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Re: [Goanet]Re. Caste... and all that- especially in Marriages
--- Neil Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My opinion is that caste can often (not always) act > as a good first filter towards finding a suitable > spouse > > In general, I am personally against casteism, > Mario replies: Neil, If you are really against casteism, maybe you should participate in educating people that this is a dastardly discriminatory system, period, and refrain from making statements that give it credence, like it's use as "a good first filter". We're talking about people here, not dirty water.
[Goanet]Re. Caste... and all that- especially in Marriages
Re. the issue of casteism in matrimonial ads: My opinion is that caste can often (not always) act as a good first filter towards finding a suitable spouse (I am speaking about Compatability here) from a large pool of unknown suitors available, especially in arranged marriages; which is why it is specified, even by some people who may not really have this as a rigid criteria. Though, it would be better to specify exactly what personal qualities, values,etc.. "product specifications" in short :)one would like in a prospective suitor, ths is not always feasible due to reasons like "bandwidth" ;), print column space etc. I think we could view this more liberally, though it is a good thing that so many goa-netters pointed it out, as this is an evil which must be gradually stamped out. Incidentally, the TOI gives a discount for matrimonials which do not mention caste. In general, I am personally against casteism, I also feel it is slowly getting extinct due to the increased literacy rates and higher levels of education. Probably, a thorough all-round education for our youth is the only way to beat this demon (not giving up the older generation as beyond-help though, but they are more difficult to cure due to many of them, even the well-educated having ingrained views & mind-sets). Further, it is also the fault of our leaders (political & religious) who are covertly propogating this to futher their own ends by creating rifts in society which they can exploit to their advantage. Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caste... and all that Mon Jul 4 23:10:41 2005 Something just occurred to me on the subject of casteism in matrimonial advertisements. I can't quite articulate it now but I'll give it a try: If a Goan were to marry another Goan, there may (depending on the family) be some pretentiousness regarding caste. If these SAME Goans families were presented with a fiance/fiancee of Catholic European descent, would they be just as rigid in questioning the pedigree of this white person's lineage? Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pintomusic.com On 7/4/05, Frederick Noronha (FN) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On the question of whether one can be a Brahmin and an anti-casteist at > the same time, perhaps the question would be better framed if it had > asked whether one can subscribe to Brahminism and believe in > anti-casteism at the same time. > ___ Too much spam in your inbox? Yahoo! Mail gives you the best spam protection for FREE! http://in.mail.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re; Caste and all that ... response to Neal and Cornel
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Dear Neal: As Cornel indicated your question on "popular opinion..." is very intriguing. To do a meaningful quantitative and qualitative research on caste is extremely difficult, if not impossible. The subject is sensitive, complex and internalized. Besides, the research of his nature falls in the human-subjects category, which creates serious ethical problems for the researcher. The only good method, from my point of view, to study meaningfully the subject of caste would be an ethnographic study. Although this method is very helpful to understand non-quantifiable issues, and it illuminates many related issues, nonetheless, it does not satisfy chronic/congenital detractors. All the best, Basilio Monteiro
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste and all that....
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## This has been a very interesting discussion so far. :) I was wondering if anyone could expand on Hindus' perception of Goan Catholics' use of the caste-system. Thanks, Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pintomusic.com On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:19:02 -0400, Basilio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Dear Fred: > Your characterization of my position as apologetics (defending the Church) > is unfortunate. I have taken a middle of the road position contextualized in > social sciences. Caste, as discrimination of any sort, is a human problem; > it does not solely belong to any particular institution. This problem of > caste, which, indeed is a problem, has to be resolved by individuals at a > very personal level. Institutions may create a helpful environment, but it > is the individual that has to respond. Laying blame at the feet of the > institutions is easy, and absolves everyone of personal responsibility. It > gives one something to boast about and gain legitimacy in some social > circles.
[Goanet]Re: Caste and all that.... reply to Fred
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Dear Fred: Your characterization of my position as apologetics (defending the Church) is unfortunate. I have taken a middle of the road position contextualized in social sciences. Caste, as discrimination of any sort, is a human problem; it does not solely belong to any particular institution. This problem of caste, which, indeed is a problem, has to be resolved by individuals at a very personal level. Institutions may create a helpful environment, but it is the individual that has to respond. Laying blame at the feet of the institutions is easy, and absolves everyone of personal responsibility. It gives one something to boast about and gain legitimacy in some social circles. Your post - particularly what I highlight below is brilliant. A sincere conversation on this topic can be transformative; but a combative discussion will perpetuate the problem. Basilio Monteiro The problem with caste isn't caste in itself, but the fact that ingrained into it are in-built notions of superiority and inferiority. This goes against the very grain of a democratic one-(wo)man-one-vote principle, where people are judged by their individual attributes and not group identities. In times when mass-education is playing the role of a great leveller, and changing Goan society tremendously, the incongruity of caste-based feelings of superiority or inferiority is even more glaringly apparent. Migration is another great leveler, and I genuinely accept the frankness with which some expats say, "Caste, what's that?" We need to be moving towards a meritocracy, where each individual is given a fair chance for all his/her talents to bloom, and then judged on the basis of what talents s/he has. Affirmative action is however not to be decried, just because it cuts into the traditional cake of the already well-off. When certain groups manage to corner an unfair share of the cream for themselves, you're going to see negative 'social capital' and also market imperfections, that block growth. Caste is obviously going to remain of sociological importance, maybe to understand who we are, where we come from. Also, our histories. Maybe even where our ancestors were unfair towards others (obviously harder to admit), or got bullied by others. Etc, etc. But I don't think we can, or should, march forward into the past and create networks on these lines. Like a businessman has only one caste and one religion -- money, it makes more sense -- likewise it would better for anyone who opts to deal with all human beings without preconceived notions. My caste identity, if at all, should matter as much as my blood group (A+), or the colour of my underwear (brown). It is there, but doesn't entitle me to feel superior or inferior to anyone else merely because of it being there.
[Goanet]Re: Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## In a message dated 10/19/2004 4:04:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] quotes a sentence from my post: > A lifetime of experience has taught me that no matter how hard I try in > personal arguments, I can never persuade a person who believes in caste > not to believe in caste. And Fred comments on it as follows: Looks like a slight blurring of issues due to the language chosen. We need to distinguish between someone subscribing to caste-based notions of superiority/hierarchy, and those (like Cornel and myself) who believe such problems won't go away simply by pushing it under the carpet. Unfortunately, Fred omitted my follow-up sentence. Far from pushing caste under the rug, I write about it in my fiction. I believe I can more readily influence minds through my fiction writing---as in my novel, Tivolem, that deals with caste, prejudice, gossip, and the evil eye, among other issues--- than through personal argument and confrontation. The written word can be a powerful tool, and I will continue to use it. Regards, Victor
