Re: [Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Response: What does this mean if a) most of the Arab countries do not recognize Israel which is why Arafat's funeral service was held in Egypt, Did Israel permit Arafat's funeral in East Jerusalem? b) the Palestine charter has not been revised, The Palestinian charter was revised. c) the official PLA maps of the region show no Israel, and I didn't see any Israeli map that shows Palestine. d) the militant Palestinian organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's own Al Aqsa Brigades almost killed Mohammad Abbas last week simply because he wants to negotiate with Israel? There are also similar Jewish extremist organizations that do not want a treaty with the Palestinians. They would rather have these people deported. And your point is? Tariq: The Palestinian Charter was revised in 1993 to eliminate this. In exchange, the Israelis acknowledged the existence of the PLO. Response: The Palestinian charter has never been revised. Also, if you are right, why do the official PLA maps exclude Israel and why did Arafat walk away from the agreement in 2000. Why do the Israeli maps exclude Palestine? The second question was answered in a mail to Marlon Menezes http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/2004-November/020096.html -Tariq __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Please see my point-by point comments below under Responses. Also, if you are right, why do the official PLA maps exclude Israel and why did Arafat walk away from the agreement in 2000. Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia wrote: I find it interesting that all those attacking Israel and its security guarantee by the US, while claiming to value life, NEVER ask for a cease fire by all parties and for peaceful negotiations to begin, and NEVER ask ask for an acceptance by the Arabs of Israel's right to exist in peace and security. Tariq: Israel's right to exist has been acknowledged by almost all the Arab countries. The Arab League has offered, as per its Beirut declaration, complete and unreserved recognition for the state of Israel if it withdraws to its 1967 borders. Response: What does this mean if a) most of the Arab countries do not recognize Israel which is why Arafat's funeral service was held in Egypt, b) the Palestine charter has not been revised, c) the official PLA maps of the region show no Israel, and d) the militant Palestinian organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's own Al Aqsa Brigades almost killed Mohammad Abbas last week simply because he wants to negotiate with Israel? The Palestinian charter calls for the extermination of Israel, and has never been changed. The PLA map of the region shows NO ISRAEL. The leaders of all the militant groups that control events on the ground vowed again JUST LAST WEEK that they will NEVER accept a 2 state solution, and tried to kill Mr. Abbas the interim replacement for Arafat simply because he asked them to cease hostilities against Israel. Tariq: The Palestinian Charter was revised in 1993 to eliminate this. In exchange, the Israelis acknowledged the existence of the PLO. Response: The Palestinian charter has never been revised. Also, if you are right, why do the official PLA maps exclude Israel and why did Arafat walk away from the agreement in 2000. Until the Palestinians and other Arabs accept Israel's right to exist in peace and security, and stop attacking Israel and its innocent civilians, the problem will continue, and Israel will have no choice but to continue its aggressive defense of its citizens. The US and Israel have both agreed that once hostilities cease everything will be on the table for negotiations. Tariq: You continue to parrot lies that I have no idea where you bring from. As indicated above, the Arab League has offered full recognition by all its members if Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders. Response: Nice try, Tariq, but short on facts as I have pointed out above. Yes, they have made this offer in side documents, but the Charter has never been revised to reflect this, and the Israeli withdrawal was conditional on a ceasefire which the militants have never agreed to. If you don't know that they tried to kill Abbas just last week just because he wanted to end hostilities proves this I really cannot help you. Also, if you are right, why do the official PLA maps exclude Israel and why did Arafat walk away from the agreement in 2000. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find it interesting that all those attacking Israel and its security guarantee by the US, while claiming to value life, NEVER ask for a cease fire by all parties and for peaceful negotiations to begin, and NEVER ask ask for an acceptance by the Arabs of Israel's right to exist in peace and security. Israel's right to exist has been acknowledged by almost all the Arab countries. The Arab League has offered, as per its Beirut declaration, complete and unreserved recognition for the state of Israel if it withdraws to its 1967 borders. The Palestinian charter calls for the extermination of Israel, and has never been changed. The PLA map of the region shows NO ISRAEL. The leaders of all the militant groups that control events on the ground vowed again JUST LAST WEEK that they will NEVER accept a 2 state solution, and tried to kill Mr. Abbas the interim replacement for Arafat simply because he asked them to cease hostilities against Israel. The Palestinian Charter was revised in 1993 to eliminat this. In exchange, the Israelis acknowledged the existence of the PLO. Until the Palestinians and other Arabs accept Israel's right to exist in peace and security, and stop attacking Israel and its innocent civilians, the problem will continue, and Israel will have no choice but to continue its aggressive defense of its citizens. The US and Israel have both agreed that once hostilities cease everything will be on the table for negotiations. You continue to parrot lies that I have no idea where you bring from. As indicated above, the Arab League has offered full recognition by all its members if Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I find it interesting that all those attacking Israel and its security guarantee by the US, while claiming to value life, NEVER ask for a cease fire by all parties and for peaceful negotiations to begin, and NEVER ask ask for an acceptance by the Arabs of Israel's right to exist in peace and security. The Palestinian charter calls for the extermination of Israel, and has never been changed. The PLA map of the region shows NO ISRAEL. The leaders of all the militant groups that control events on the ground vowed again JUST LAST WEEK that they will NEVER accept a 2 state solution, and tried to kill Mr. Abbas the interim replacement for Arafat simply because he asked them to cease hostilities against Israel. Until the Palestinians and other Arabs accept Israel's right to exist in peace and security, and stop attacking Israel and its innocent civilians, the problem will continue, and Israel will have no choice but to continue its aggressive defense of its citizens. The US and Israel have both agreed that once hostilities cease everything will be on the table for negotiations. I predict that Israel will continue to build a wall around itself, which they should have done decades ago, and innocent Palestinians will all lose the jobs they had in Israel. The partitions of 1947 were just as fair or unfair, in Palestine as in India depending on your point of view. The fact is that, after the initial chaos, Indians and Pakistanis accepted their partition and moved on with their lives. The Palestinians did not, and 5 Arab countries invaded the new Israel in 1947 vowing to push the Jews into the sea. --- Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- O filho de Albuquerque [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is unfortunate and also TRUE is that in 1947 , the Jews had agreed to the equal partition of Palestine between Arabs and Jews , but this was rejected by the ARABS who even refused to acknowledge the right of the Jewish nation to EXIST . So in a way the Arabs asked for it. The Partition Plan on 1947 was neither equal nor fair. The Partition Plan granted 55 percent of Palestine to the Jews, who at that time comprised only 30 percent of the population, and who owned a mere 6 percent of the land. Your statement 'So in a way the Arabs asked for it.' is quite distressing. If you choose to reject an unfair settlement, and as a consequence lose much more, then should we say that you asked for it? Tank fire in Civilian areas : This is interesting , Here it is unfair to blame the Jews alone . It is the Arabs who first attack Israeli foot patrols , and then go and hide in Civilian Built up areas , Mosques , and Churches . If the Arabs are so Brave , and ready for Martyrdom, why do they hide behind women ,children , as well as in mosques when the battle has started ? Why should any Israeli General in his right senses order his boys to enter these so called civilian areas without heavy armour , when they could get killed . Israel reserves the right to use all means , and all force at its disposal to fight this war . The problem here is that you ignore that the fight between the Israelis and the Palestinians is an unequal fight. What the Palestinians do, is a reflection of their lack of F-16s and Apache helicopters. Give them the same equipment, training and military bases, I doubt any of them will find a need to hide in civilian areas. It should be noted here that the Jews used the same methods during the Warsaw uprising against the Nazis and the their campaign of terror against the British in Palestine. Adolf Hitler did what he did , not as a Christian , but as a follower of Nazism! Perhaps you are mistaken. Hitler was influenced by Christian beliefs. There are many citations in this regard. One is produced below http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm Again regarding Jewish persecution by Christians , the only incident that can possibly be cited is the Spanish Inquisition , but even over here it was not just the Jews who were singled out , but all peoples and idealogies that
Re: [Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- O filho de Albuquerque [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is unfortunate and also TRUE is that in 1947 , the Jews had agreed to the equal partition of Palestine between Arabs and Jews , but this was rejected by the ARABS who even refused to acknowledge the right of the Jewish nation to EXIST . So in a way the Arabs asked for it. The Partition Plan on 1947 was neither equal nor fair. The Partition Plan granted 55 percent of Palestine to the Jews, who at that time comprised only 30 percent of the population, and who owned a mere 6 percent of the land. Your statement 'So in a way the Arabs asked for it.' is quite distressing. If you choose to reject an unfair settlement, and as a consequence lose much more, then should we say that you asked for it? Tank fire in Civilian areas : This is interesting , Here it is unfair to blame the Jews alone . It is the Arabs who first attack Israeli foot patrols , and then go and hide in Civilian Built up areas , Mosques , and Churches . If the Arabs are so Brave , and ready for Martyrdom, why do they hide behind women ,children , as well as in mosques when the battle has started ? Why should any Israeli General in his right senses order his boys to enter these so called civilian areas without heavy armour , when they could get killed . Israel reserves the right to use all means , and all force at its disposal to fight this war . The problem here is that you ignore that the fight between the Israelis and the Palestinians is an unequal fight. What the Palestinians do, is a reflection of their lack of F-16s and Apache helicopters. Give them the same equipment, training and military bases, I doubt any of them will find a need to hide in civilian areas. It should be noted here that the Jews used the same methods during the Warsaw uprising against the Nazis and the their campaign of terror against the British in Palestine. Adolf Hitler did what he did , not as a Christian , but as a follower of Nazism! Perhaps you are mistaken. Hitler was influenced by Christian beliefs. There are many citations in this regard. One is produced below http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm Again regarding Jewish persecution by Christians , the only incident that can possibly be cited is the Spanish Inquisition , but even over here it was not just the Jews who were singled out , but all peoples and idealogies that threatened the existence of a Unified ,Catholic , Spain that were purged , and ordered to leave the country , this included among others , the Moors , Albeginesse Heretics , and Jews . The Spanish Inquisition was Fair in the sense , these undesirables were given a chance to leave a country to which NEITHER THEY , nor THEIR IDEAS belonged to in the FIRST PLACE . That sound a lot to me like racism. In this regard, I think it would be extremely FAIR for the US and UAE to expel all Goans from their respective countries. -Tariq __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Israel's critics like Mr. Correia-Afonso and his supporters totally ignore such key elements of the problem, whereas you have astutely observed that the failure to accept Israel's right to live in peace and security is a problem that the Palestinians have to deal with if they are to have a viable state of their own. Their continued attempts to eliminate Israel and all the Jews in Palestine will lead to more of the deadly attacks and counter-attacks that we would all like to see stop. The Palestinians attack the Israelis because the Israelis are occupying their land. Spin it any way you want, but OCCUPATION is OCCUPATION. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Dominic, I will deal with Mr. Correia-Afonso's comments separately, but I want to acknowledge and thank you for your far more even-handed point of view. However, I hope you agree with me that truth without context and perspective is no longer truth. Regarding the Jews in Palestine, aren't we forgetting the Jews that have been in Palestine since the old Testament? Aren't we forgetting the Nazis and the deliberate attempt at genocide called the Holocaust in Europe which is why the European Jews fled to Israel in the first place? Yes, some militant Jews claim all of Palestine on Biblical grounds, and are akin to the militant Hindu extremists, but surely you know that the vast majority of Jews in Israel, as well as the Israeli government, do not, just as the vast majority of Indians support a secular India? So why make such a sweeping statement and then throw in some other ancient history that can only obfuscate the debate on Palestine? The problem is thorny enough as it is. In my humble opinion, the modern history of the area begins with the partition in 1947, not with the old Testament, just as the modern history of India begins in 1947, not with the Mahabharata. Everything before that is interesting but hardly useful any more, other than to whip up people's emotions. Not only did the Palestinians and other Arabs reject Israel in 1947-48, their Charter to this day has not been changed to accept Israel. I'd like to know why. JUST LAST WEEK, after Arafat's burial in Ramallah, their militants confirmd once again that they will never accept Israel. They almost killed Mr. Abbas simply because he asked for a cessation of hostilities. Among the Arab countries only Egypt and Jordan and a few smaller Gulf States have recognized Israel, which is why Arafat's pre-burial funeral service was held in Cairo. I disagree with much of what Israel does, especially their diabolical settlements policy. However, if armed militants had been actively attacking your entire community since 1948, right after the Nazis had tried to wipe out your entire community in Europe, what options would you have if you had no other place to run to? What would you do if there was some group out there that had the objective of eliminating your entire country? Israel's critics like Mr. Correia-Afonso and his supporters totally ignore such key elements of the problem, whereas you have astutely observed that the failure to accept Israel's right to live in peace and security is a problem that the Palestinians have to deal with if they are to have a viable state of their own. Their continued attempts to eliminate Israel and all the Jews in Palestine will lead to more of the deadly attacks and counter-attacks that we would all like to see stop. O filho de Albuquerque [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Please understand that the so-called Israelis are in fact European Jews who have forcibly occupied vast tracts of Palestinian Arab lands, illegally constructed settlements therein and driven out those who have been living there for a couple of thousand years into squalid refugee camps where they live under sub-human conditions. Can they be expected to meekly accept such blatant injustice? This is a truth that cannot be denied , the Jews are as bad as the Arabs in this case . If the Jews can claim posession of most of Palestine , because their God supposedly promised them Palestine ,surely the Christians can hope to reclaim most the present Arab Countries like Iraq, Egypt ,Syria and Jordan and most Turkey ,with Constantinople (now called Istanbul by the muslim occupier) which was the seat of Eastern Christianity. If the Jews existed in Palestine 2000 years ago , surely the Muslims have been living there for atleast the last 1200 years , and have some legitimacy . What is unfortunate and also TRUE is that in 1947 , the Jews had agreed to the equal partition of Palestine between Arabs and Jews , but this was rejected by the ARABS who even refused to acknowledge the right of the Jewish nation to EXIST . So in a way the Arabs asked for it. As I have stated in my post, every human life is precious and any unnecessary loss of such a life is to be decried. Mario rightly sheds tears for the lives of
[Goanet]Reply to Tony Corriea Afonso
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Please understand that the so-called Israelis are in fact European Jews who have forcibly occupied vast tracts of Palestinian Arab lands, illegally constructed settlements therein and driven out those who have been living there for a couple of thousand years into squalid refugee camps where they live under sub-human conditions. Can they be expected to meekly accept such blatant injustice? This is a truth that cannot be denied , the Jews are as bad as the Arabs in this case . If the Jews can claim posession of most of Palestine , because their God supposedly promised them Palestine ,surely the Christians can hope to reclaim most the present Arab Countries like Iraq, Egypt ,Syria and Jordan and most Turkey ,with Constantinople (now called Istanbul by the muslim occupier) which was the seat of Eastern Christianity. If the Jews existed in Palestine 2000 years ago , surely the Muslims have been living there for atleast the last 1200 years , and have some legitimacy . What is unfortunate and also TRUE is that in 1947 , the Jews had agreed to the equal partition of Palestine between Arabs and Jews , but this was rejected by the ARABS who even refused to acknowledge the right of the Jewish nation to EXIST . So in a way the Arabs asked for it. As I have stated in my post, every human life is precious and any unnecessary loss of such a life is to be decried. Mario rightly sheds tears for the lives of Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian suicide bombers. I hope he spares a thought for the thousands of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli air attacks and tank fire in civilian areas. Tank fire in Civilian areas : This is interesting , Here it is unfair to blame the Jews alone . It is the Arabs who first attack Israeli foot patrols , and then go and hide in Civilian Built up areas , Mosques , and Churches . If the Arabs are so Brave , and ready for Martyrdom, why do they hide behind women ,children , as well as in mosques when the battle has started ? Why should any Israeli General in his right senses order his boys to enter these so called civilian areas without heavy armour , when they could get killed . Israel reserves the right to use all means , and all force at its disposal to fight this war . Comparisons are odious, as they say, but whatever attrocities the Palestinians Arabs may be accused of perpetrating on the Israelis pale into insignificance when compared with the systematic persecution of the Jewish race by European Christians over two thousand years, culminating in the Holocaust. Is it right for Palestinian Arabs to be paying for the crimes of European Christians? sa This claim is ridiculous and DANGEROUS , you have alleged that Jews were persecuted by Christians, for over 2 millenia !! Adolf Hitler did what he did , not as a Christian , but as a follower of Nazism! Hitler was as Anti-Christian as Anti-Jew , and has as much innocent Christian blood on his hands as Jewish blood . Its sad that in this post-christian world obsessed with being politically correct that the Jews get off with a lot of nonsense . The Jews are not the only people to have suffered a Genocide /Holocaust in history , the Armenians ,Cambodians , Rwandans have suffered as much . Its just that the Jewish Holocaust has got a terrible lot of publicity , and the Jews never miss a chance to play on the guilt of the Western countries for their ignorance of the Jewish plight in Nazi Occupied Europe . Again regarding Jewish persecution by Christians , the only incident that can possibly be cited is the Spanish Inquisition , but even over here it was not just the Jews who were singled out , but all peoples and idealogies that threatened the existence of a Unified ,Catholic , Spain that were purged , and ordered to leave the country , this included among others , the Moors , Albeginesse Heretics , and Jews . The Spanish Inquisition was Fair in the sense , these undesirables were given a chance to leave a country to which NEITHER THEY , nor THEIR IDEAS belonged to in the FIRST PLACE . As far is i know Torquemada did not organise concentration camps for the liquidation of Jews or Muslims . Nor did they claim that they had a God Given right to invade and occupy arab lands . Indeed Senor Afonso , Truth will Prevail !! . No one is spotless in this world of 101 Dalmations . Dominic Fernandes
