[Goanet]Voice of the Exploited
GL responds: Santosh my friend, please do not assume anything. My writing speaks for itself. If you want to make more sense of it, please read it again and again. Then kindly contemplate on it rather than respond to it with a knee-jerk series of reactions or more questions. For all of us, it is easy to get technical on unimportant details and miss the line of reasoning. It may be nice and easy to make fame or a fast buck with writing fabrication (fiction) at somebody else's expense, reputation and physical suffering. But is it right? I am sure your statement below is followed by many cyberGoans. But to my simple mind, it needs a lawyer to interpret. :=)) The only reason I am making this point, so that I can seek your OK to move on to the next perspective. As per your post before last on this thread, do I have your permission? :=)), :=)) :=)) Thanks. Regards GL Santosh: That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you mean you have a problem with fiction which is presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact, which is rightly presented as fiction. Cheers,
Re: [Goanet] Voice Of The Exploited
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have NO PROBLEM with reporting facts. I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fiction. (aka called docu-dramas) I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations to the facts. My PHILOSOPHY: Think twice before one does harm someone else. Because do unto others what you would like to be done to yourself Hope that clarifies my position. That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you mean you have a problem with fiction which is presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact, which is rightly presented as fiction. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Voice Of The Exploited
Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating between personal freedom of expression and government sanctioned propaganda. First of all, contrary to what Gilbert claims, the KKK, Aryan Nation and other white supremist groups are free to express their opinions in the United States - and thankfully so. There is nothing in the US constitution that prevents them from expressing their ideas so long as they do not engage in physical or verbal threats against other entities. In fact, such organizations have used their rights to public access to enable them to broadcast their propaganda on TV (check your local public access TV - they are quite amusing to watch and make the BJP's Goa's Freedom Struggle propaganda crap look very upscale). Furthermore, libel laws in the US are very weak and have rarely been successfully used to prosecute such individuals. In most cases, individuals from these various organizations have been found guilty of specfic crimes which has resulted in successful legal action being filed against them. This cannot be compared to state sanctioned propaganda, such as the BJP's Goa's freedom struggle video. Conversely, the movie Sins cannot be clubbed with the above because it has no government involvement. Furthermore, just because a few right wing christian extremists may find this movie offensive, does not make it communal either. This behavior is not too different from that of the Sh*t Sena who have opposed the release of movies they considered offensive to their culture or religion. Is there really a difference between them and Gilbert's attitude? Marlon --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GL responds to Santosh: The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the violence - similar to India. --- Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilbert, To what part of my post are you responding? Are you comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are writers who base their fiction on factual situations concerning living individuals and existing institutions no different from racist bigots? I must say that I am more confused than ever about what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to your original claim that fiction writing should not be based on factual situations involving living individuals or existing institutions. I also do not know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to be reported at all or not. I hope you could clarify these points before raising new ones. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Voice Of The Exploited
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GL responds to Santosh: The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the violence - similar to India. Gilbert, To what part of my post are you responding? Are you comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are writers who base their fiction on factual situations concerning living individuals and existing institutions no different from racist bigots? That is why we do not see KKK in USA. My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK rallies being held in many towns in the U.S. quite regularly. Just last month there were news reports about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white supremacist who is alleged to have been involved in the murder of the parents of a judge in Chicago. I must say that I am more confused than ever about what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to your original claim that fiction writing should not be based on factual situations involving living individuals or existing institutions. I also do not know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to be reported at all or not. I hope you could clarify these points before raising new ones. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet]Voice Of The Exploited
GL responds to Santosh: The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the violence - similar to India. In the USA, this has stopped now! Because the civil right movement and the Jewish lawyers went after these groups with libel law suits. They went after not the perpetrators of the violence (the house-burners, the lynchers, gun slingers etc.). They went after their civil leaders and those that produced the fictional material and the movies. They won big - money wise! That is why we do not see KKK in USA. That appears to be the civilized way to stop invented story and crimes based on hate and imaginary tales put out by those under 'freedom of expression'. Pay for your expression with MONEY! Don't you love it? :=)) Can all those who hate the caste and religious violence in India join and do/support something similar. Yes, RSS! They can be confronted - in the court of law! Sooner or later they (leaders) will have to pay with jail and / or money. Regards, GL Santosh: That is a question to be asked of lawyers who specialize in libel law. I do not know how to answer it. But I think any professional fiction writer can seek legal help before publishing his/her fictional stories to ensure that they are not subject to litigation under libel law. Gilbert Lawrence wrote: Hi Santosh, But you did not answer my honest question. Where does fiction end and libel begin?
Re: [Goanet] Voice Of The Exploited
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation. One does not have to select a living/ existing individual or institution. Gilbert, I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that one should not write fiction based on factual situations affecting an individual who is presently alive or an institution that is presently in existence? Can one write a factual account of such factual situations? Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous. Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt but highly popular politician? Can one not write a fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a factual account of these things? Or what you are saying applies only to things of a sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic Church-related nature? Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet]Voice Of The Exploited
Hi Santosh, I think you make a good point. And thank you! But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten. And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality! This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's inquisition. The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on the facts and statistics. If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation. One does not have to select a living / existing individual or institution. Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous. If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not? Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything doesn't mean one should. Regards. GL Santosh Helekar: How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional film or allegations against individuals? Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it. Gilbert Lawrence wrote: Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts.
[Goanet]Voice Of The Exploited (1)
GL responds: Response to Fred's and Sachin's post. The first paragraph of the original post states: it's the so called FICTIONAL SEXUAL ESCAPADES of a Priest. Hope that answers many of Fred's rhetorical questions. Why did Fred and other protests the Goa VCD? Was it only because it was funded by the govt. and forced on the kids? Or was it fictional (very biased) and could lead to a disruption in the harmony of the Goan community? How does the message and content of the Goa VCD differ from this SINS movie? Other than, one is historical and the other sexual. I have not seen either. Do we set an environment for the production of Goa VCD or SIN (under the guise of free press) ANI MAGIR strongly protest the inevitable end-result? Regards, GL Frederick Noronha With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the people, and hence should not be allowed? How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted? I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN Gilbert Lawrence wrote: The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard. I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should apply to other issues. Regards [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Goanet]AICU BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins' PRESS STATEMENT February18, 2005 The EditorPRESS STATEMENT Re: AICU BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins' The All India Catholic Union [AICU] The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS] condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest. This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
[Goanet]Voice of the Exploited
GL responds: I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity. It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and dragging the thread out even longer. But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement, accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators / administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]. Response to the other posts to follow. Regards jose colaco Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab, With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]. I believe that with the demand by the AICU BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity. The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION received. For all I know, the guys at the AICU BCS have been CONNED into providing FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion. Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their kids to see the Passion. Now with all the sex in SINS, I can see the saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Re: [Goanet]Voice Of The Exploited
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand corrected on this issue. Fred is right when he says: I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins. It is a tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons who are protesting about the film Sin, had strongly criticised Hindu organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like Water by Mira Nair. I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it? Sachin Phadte. _ Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him n his life. http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Re: [Goanet] Voice Of The Exploited
Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional film or allegations against individuals? Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet]Voice of the Exploited or the Voice of the conned ?
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab, With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]. I believe that with the demand by the AICU BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity. The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION received. For all I know, the guys at the AICU BCS have been CONNED into providing FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion. Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their kids to see the Passion. Now with all the sex in SINS, I can see the saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people who are having Sex are the priests and videshis. Talking about that . WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual relationships ? Now.here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties 1. Sex and the Devadasis 2. Manu and Sex 3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India 4. the asexual Sadhus of India 5. Rapethe art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women 6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story And new topics for Krischen Righties 1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story 2. Abuse - is good for you 3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil ain't happening good wishes jc attachments: 1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? 2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu tradition 3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin 4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor only (?) block ! 5. AICU BCS : Withdraw movie (1) Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/ So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is generally the teenagers' domain: the car. Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take permission to make the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for permission, what were his chances of securing it? === (2) Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police protection, while in North America and Europe Fire.attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi, smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the institution of marriage. == (3) Fred Noronha wrote With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the people, and hence should not be allowed? How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted? I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN === (4) Gilbert Lawrence wrote GL responds: The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard. I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
Re: [Goanet]Voice Of The Exploited
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the people, and hence should not be allowed? How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted? I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN Frederick Noronha Saligao-Goa On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Gilbert Lawrence wrote: GL responds: The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard. I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should apply to other issues. Regards Voice Of The Exploited [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Goanet]AICU BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins' PRESS STATEMENT February18, 2005 The EditorPRESS STATEMENT Re: AICU BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins' The All India Catholic Union [AICU] The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS] condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest. This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
[Goanet]Voice Of The Exploited
GL responds: The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard. I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should apply to other issues. Regards Voice Of The Exploited [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Goanet]AICU BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins' PRESS STATEMENT February18, 2005 The EditorPRESS STATEMENT Re: AICU BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins' The All India Catholic Union [AICU] The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS] condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest. This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction. As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence. It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the promos, that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to withdraw this movie from a telecast
