Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches- response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- Vivek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my opinion and in the opinion of many historians there is no perhaps or maybe as far as atrocities on the local population including destruction of hindu temples is concerned.It is well documented by independent historians and the writings of people like Francis xavier too reflect that barbarity. Mario responds: Vivek, Any opinion needs to be backed up by supporting evidence. Please refer to the posts of Gilbert Lawrence on the subject of the evidence you so glibly cite, without presenting any, and debate that part with him if you choose to. Such details are his forte. Vivek writes: I also belive that such wanton acts of religious extremism in the past should not be used to justify and encourage more such acts in our present times. At the same times such incidents should not be brushed under the carpet under the pretense of maintaining communal harmony or by refering to other issues like sati manusmriti and aryan invasion or hindutva. Mario replies: I agree. However, we should not brush one part of ancient history under the carpet while obsessing on some other part. Mentioning that every conquering group did something does not absolve any of them. Mentioning one and objecting to any mention of others indicates some bias. Vivek writes: I belive it would be a good start for all of us if accept that what the portuguese and other colonial missionaries of bygone era incuding francis xavier did was an extreme example of religious bigotry and intolerance. Mario replies: I hope that you have noted that while I am a practicing Catholic who focuses on the precepts of the religion as opposed to the institution and the personalities that may have besmirched it over the years, I have called the Portuguese of the Inquisition period Christian-fascists. What more do you want from me? Vivek writes: I also do not agree with your assertion that criticising such acts by christian zealots in the past is in any way related to christianity bashing. Mario replies: Again, I agree with you in principle. However, why would we give any special credibility on this issue to those like Marlon who gleefully bash Christians and Christianity as a general part of their modus operandi, while denying they do so? If you don't believe me, click on the following URL and see what he thinks for yourself, in his own words: http://shire.symonds.net/pipermail/goanet/2006-April/041649.html _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, as all knowledge is provisional, I am sure we will discover much more on this theme-- particularly from historians. Mario observes: Cornel, Bill Clinton would love you, man :-)) It all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is is the mantra that guides you both :-)) As the comical Oracle of relativism you have pronounced once again with utmost certitude ...as all knowledge is provisional. Is your certitude on this issue provisional as well? I'm waiting with bated breath to discover whether the provisional knowledge that 2 plus 2 equals 4 has changed due to additional research and reflection :-)) And please use some other object, not yourself, when you try to see whether the provisional principles of gravity have changed:-)) _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches
Vivek, Please do not selectively associate me in this issue. If you have followed this thread you would know that I have clearly said that this kind of atrocity was quite possible during Goa's Christian-fascist Inquisition period. If it did, it is another unfortunate historical atrocity, among many such atrocities. I have also said that such atrocities were not limited to Portuguese or Christians as we know from the Ayodhya experience. I cited a Hindu temple that was demolished in Lahore just this month and replaced by a temple of commerce. My comments have mostly to do with the attitudes and biased comments by certain well-known Christian-bashers on Goanet, who grew up Christian but who now never lose an opportunity to malign the religion and those of us who practice it. --- Vivek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been following the discussion between marlon, Gilber mario and others regarding the destruction of hindu temples by the Portuguese _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches
Hi Gilbert I have now read your version as well as that of Marlon on this theme. Further, I have had communication in London, among others, with a Goan who is working on a book on the Inquisition in Goa. I have of course, done some reading on the theme too. On the bases of all these avenues, my hunch is that Marlon's is the more persuasive of the two versions. However, as all knowledge is provisional, I am sure we will discover much more on this theme--particularly from historians. Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:51 AM Subject: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches Hi Cornel, This is a response to some of your comments in the two recent posts on this thread. Both your posts have statements which appear to be confusing. In themselves, some may be true statements, but they (the various facts) are not connected. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Churches
Just to let everyone, Gilbert's comments below are yet another spin in his attempt to deflect blame from the church. It is well known that Goa was ruled by a Muslim leader by the name of Adil Shah when the Portuguese attacked Goa. In fact, the Portuguese received support from neighboring Hindu rulers. Like the British who were to follow much later, the Portuguese came to India in search of trade, not to prostelyze. The Portuguese did not touch any of the Hindu structures and the native population continued to live as before. It as only around 100+ years later, with the onset of the Inquisition that the Portuguese were forced to change course and target the native Hindu population and their religion. It is only during this time that Hindu temples were destroyed with churches built on them. To suggest that Hindu temples were destroyed as a result of a military operation that took place 100+ years earlier is simply ridiculous! This was not a militarily driven operation. It was purely a manifestation of christian extremism. During this period of Christian genocide against the Goan Hindus, virtually all their temples were destroyed in the regions they controlled, which primarily consisted of what is today's Ilhas, Bardez and Salcete. That is why, we see few if any old Hindu structures in these regions today. After about another 100 years, the rest of the eastern talukas of what now called Goa came under Portuguese rule. However by then, the Inquisition had died down and furthermore, the Church no longer had the power it once did. As a result, many ancient Hindu temples still exist in these talukas today. As I said, the more Gilbert writes on this topic, the more it highlights his biases. Marlon --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Cornel, This is a response to some of your comments in the two recent posts on this thread. Both your posts have statements which appear to be confusing. In themselves, some may be true statements, but they (the various facts) are not connected. As I stated previously and discussed about two years ago, Hindu temples were destroyed to terrorize the native population and as part of a LAND GRAB. Thus the Hindus left their ancestral land and villages and fled the Portuguese territory. This was part of the military's plan. All invading armies did the same - used some excuse (extending from destruction of places of worship and homes, slaughter, intimidation, introduction of laws, etc.) to confiscate / grab the land. The land was then distributed (as compensation) to the retired soldiers and officers of the invading army. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples .....
Gilbert, Thank you for your long winded attempt to weasel out an explanation. The more you write, the more you expose your prejudices. If you wish to ignore the mountains of independent research that has been done on this issue and choose to ignore the material evidence that still exists on the ground today, all the more power to you. Marlon --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hence we should be skeptical on rumors, beliefs and writings from the Ancient and Middle Ages. In Goa, we call them Kaneos. However many modern writings are reproductions from or heavily referenced to Middle Age accounts. A good example is the De Vinci Code. Other modern examples are some of the articles written on the web on Goa during the Middle Ages. Hence SUBJECTIVE descriptions should be taken with a large grain of salt. This compared to texts that are factual and describe OBJECTIVE findings. Some of these objective findings should still be CORROBORATED to verify the authenticity of the original descriptions. Or else what we see and what they mean may be fictional and we do not want our religious beliefs to be based on fiction. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Catholicchurches in their places.
Mario replies: Many things that are well known are based on rumors and don't have the slightest evidence. Obviously Mario has not bothered to read the threads from 2004. Once he is done reading those threads, he should read: Flight of the Deities: Hindu Resistance in Portuguese Goa, by Paul Axelrod, Michelle A. Fuerch Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 30, No. 2 (May, 1996). If he is still interested, I can provide him with references to additional books that I have read that have more details with pictoral evidence of Hindu structures within existing churches. Mario replies: Since when did Marlon, who doesn't lose an opportunity to bash Christians, Catholics and religion, become an expert on this subject? And when did Mario become a friend of the catholics? Mario's vile comments comparing the Pope and the Vatican to the islamic terrorists, just because they opposed the Iraq war, leaves a lot to be desired! Mario should not throw stones in glass houses. My questioning of christian beliefs does not equate to me being anti christian. All it does is that it exposes certain people's insecurities about their own religion. The record clearly shows that I have supported the rights of christians (and all religions for that matter) and have provided material support for Goan Catholic organizations. Mario replies: And how about when pagan temples were built on the ruins of Christian churches, mosques were built on the ruins of Hindu temples, and Hindu temples built on the ruins of mosques? What cross was involved in these cases? Wherever this kind of thing did happen it was the ultimate symbol of religious supremacy, hatred and intolerance. --- You need to show consistency to all forms of intolerance. If all of the above was unaccetable, then why is it that you continue to ignore the issue of churches being built over destroyed temples? I am not asking that the church provide restitution for events that took place 500 years ago. What I am asking for is that people acknowledge that such events took place, as it serves as the best deterrent against extremism from the other side. It is quite natural for some like Gilbert to fear the truth for it may provide ammunition for the enemies of the church to attack it. My approach looks to marginalize the Hindu extremists by appealing to the quest for the truth and common sense shared by the moderate majority from all the sides. Marlon _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The destruction of Hindu temples to build Catholicchurches in their places.
--- Aurelius Figueredo wrote: Well it's also quite well known the during the early crusades in Europe, a lot of pagan temples were destroyed and churches raised in their place. The reasons were varied of which this thread doesn't get into but it did happen. Mario replies: Many things that are well known are based on rumors and don't have the slightest evidence. Auri writes: In fact as Marlon stated, in some old churches eastern Europe, tourists have actually traced the outlines of the pagan temple within the church. Mario replies: Since when did Marlon, who doesn't lose an opportunity to bash Christians, Catholics and religion, become an expert on this subject? Auri writes: As far as what the thought process would be to desecrate a church by building over a pagan temple? The raising of a blessed cross by a priest and the first mass would sanctify the land and drive away all evils. Mario replies: And how about when pagan temples were built on the ruins of Christian churches, mosques were built on the ruins of Hindu temples, and Hindu temples built on the ruins of mosques? What cross was involved in these cases? Wherever this kind of thing did happen it was the ultimate symbol of religious supremacy, hatred and intolerance. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
