Re: [Goanet] Goan emigration - 3- ( Herald Aug 2 )
- Goanetter Francis Rodrigues (Vasco/Toronto) unveils his book, The Greatest Konkani Song Hits. Launch dates: Goa (Kala Academy) on 9 Aug. 4 pm. U.K. (Staines) on 15 Aug. Canada on 20 Aug and US on 30 Aug. Details http://www.konkanisongbook.com/ - I've said this before and I'll say it again. I shall respond only to facts and issues raised in what I've written about, that is re-posted here. None of what Antonio raises below was written, implied or imputed in the captioned subject. (Aside, many would know what Antonio says below, about *confrarias* is true, but do dismount off the saddle of that anachronistic institution! It is almost dead here.) -v - Original Message - From: Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com To: goanet goa...@goanet.org Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 6:59 PM Subject: [Goanet] Goan emigration - 3- ( Herald Aug 2 ) Valmiki writes: ''I indicated no proportion or percentage of educated and not so.'' You are right , my apologies. And did the Church in Goa really deny '' education to the poor ? '' asks Valimiki . The answer ''obviously'' is in negative because the history of the Church in Goa was written ''' from a perspective of a particular high society or by an individual of the dominant society '' to quote Basilio G Monteiro in his article History through the eyes of historians. And did the Portuguese Patriarch enjoy the sight of various confrarias in procession after the feast day mass ? Obviously yes. Did he see anything unchristian to the ;point of being apostatical ( or for that matter , did the members of the Inquisition tribunal see ) in the various colours of opmuses worn by confraria members, like blue for sudras, red for chardos and yellow/white for brahmins. Of course not. for the same reasons given above by Basilio G. Monteiro, Antonio
Re: [Goanet] Goan emigration -- 3 (Herald August 2 )
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Nothwithstanding Antonio Menezes' grudge against the high-caste fellas, I really wonder whether caste really played a part in education in Parochial schools. Valmiki has some investigation to perform in this regard :-). First of all, to which segment of population was the the Vavraddeancho Ixxt aimed at? Secondly, did the Parochial schools impart only music? or was it in addition to the basics of reading and arithmetic? I ask because I am puzzled. Many musicians of the Goa Symphony Orchestra of 1952 were field workers, who were searched for in the muddy fields of Salcette and Sanguem. They not only could play very effectively, as reported to me by a now-retired octogenerian musician in London, Antonio Oboe Noronha, but as far as I could ascertain, they could also read, write and keep contas. Gabriel - Original Message From: Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com To: goanet goa...@goanet.org Sent: Sunday, 2 August, 2009 5:35:47 PM Subject: [Goanet] Goan emigration -- 3 (Herald August 2 ) Antonio responds: I fully agree with what Valmiki has written ecept when he writes a large idle population of educated and not so ''' It somehow gives the impression that Goans who migrated to India were 90% educated and 10% illiterate whereas in reality it was the other way around i.e. 90% illiterate and 10% literate. The latter were mostly from the so called high castes fellas who were educated inthe parochial schools.. Thanks to the Grande Patriarca Portugues das Indias Orientais and his sacerdotal assistants comprising of the highest caste made by the Indian God, the illiterate Goan catholics were more at home with Jezu, Jezu than with A,B,C, and 1,2,3, Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail
[Goanet] Goan Emigration - 3
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html World War II The victories must be seen as Indian to more than a small degree (in terms of valor, etc), but are seen as British, perhaps simply or largely because over 95% of the officers over the rank of Captain were British, and we fought for the British. This was not so of the ANZACS and the Canadians. Their victories were their own. Aming the battles the Indians/Gurkhas fought bravely were those of the Battle of Monte Cassino. the Gothic Line, and Operation Crusader. If interested I will email online links. World War I About 100,000 Indians perished in World War I. I have seen the graves. They died in Somme, and Givency in France, Ypres in Belgium. Also Gallipoli. At Bastille Day this year, More than six decades later, the Maratha Light Infantry conquered another frontier with thousands of Parisians watching as 93 of its personnel marched down, led by Captain Vivek Khanduri. http://www.samaylive.com/news/manmohan-singh-attends-bastille-day-parade/638634.html And the Sikhs: In the First battle of Ypres in Flanders in 1914 a platoon of Sikhs died fighting to the last man, who shot himself with his last cartridge rather than surrender. http://www.sikhspectrum.com/122002/soldiers_ww.htm Some Indians (Freies Indien) also fought for the Wehrmacht in World War II in the Battaglione Azad Hindoustan in 1942 an remained in Lancenau until two months of the Normandy invasion. http://www.feldgrau.com/ Click on Freiwellige. (Foreign Volunteers). Then on to the India link. The first major defeat that Japanese received was the hands of the Indians in the Battle of Kohima. venantius j pinto Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 17:59:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Goanet] Goan Emigration -3 Hi Bosco, You have spoken as a?Canadian.?If you were a pukka Canadian, like my White Canadian brother-in-law who fought in WW II (landing on Normandy beach); he did not even know that Asian-Indians fought in the WW II, under the British flag (in North Africa, Italian front and Burma). After Whites?are appraised of the Indian statistics, the Whites in Canada, America and Europe give more credit to the Indian sacrifice; than what is barely?mentioned in the European history books on WW II. My beef with your point is: Indians should not have died in the Europe, Africa?or?defending British colonies?in other parts of the world. WW II was not an Asian subcontinent / Indian Ocean war.? I was surprised to see the Indian civilian causalities in the chart on WW II (1,500,000 to 2,500,000). Which theater of war were they victims? As Gabriel's post suggest, Indian sepoys were against?fighting Gandhi and his followers; even for their British pay-masters. Regards, GL
[Goanet] Goan emigration - 3- ( Herald Aug 2 )
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Valmiki writes: ''I indicated no proportion or percentage of educated and not so.'' You are right , my apologies. And did the Church in Goa really deny '' education to the poor ? '' asks Valimiki . The answer ''obviously'' is in negative because the history of the Church in Goa was written ''' from a perspective of a particular high society or by an individual of the dominant society '' to quote Basilio G Monteiro in his article History through the eyes of historians. And did the Portuguese Patriarch enjoy the sight of various confrarias in procession after the feast day mass ? Obviously yes. Did he see anything unchristian to the ;point of being apostatical ( or for that matter , did the members of the Inquisition tribunal see ) in the various colours of opmuses worn by confraria members, like blue for sudras, red for chardos and yellow/white for brahmins. Of course not. for the same reasons given above by Basilio G. Monteiro, Antonio
Re: [Goanet] Goan Emigration -3
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html This might not have much to do with the topic in question. According to some separate documentaries on Winston Churchill and Subhas Chandra Bose broadcast by SBS (one of Australia's non-commercial TV channels), I gather that the main reason for giving India independence after WWII was the fact that the British commanders could no longer trust the loyalty of the Indian contigents, considering that they 1. joined with the German forces to fight the British when taken as POWs by the Germans 2. ditto with the POWs taken by the Japanese. Add to that the liaison between Subhas Chandra Bose and the Japs... Gabriel. - Original Message From: Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Monday, 3 August, 2009 12:00:38 AM Subject: [Goanet] Goan Emigration -3 Their sepoys were Gurkha, Sikhs and other ethnic Hindus with in-bred fighting skills. India provided Britain with 670,000 men for World War I and contributed two-and-a half million men for World War II. Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail
Re: [Goanet] Goan emigration -- 3 (Herald August 2 )
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html I don't intend getting drawn into one of those classic Goanet debates. But if Antonio Menezes, whose writing I admire, re-reads what I wrote, he may perhaps realise I indicated no proportion or percentage of educated and not-so-educated Goans who emigrated to British India. And did the church in Goa really deny education to the poor? Maybe I have to learn more, but my impression was that close on the heels of the colonial state, it was the church that imparted -- other than Jezu, Jezu -- instruction in the ABCs, 123s and DoReMis. Despite the *Grande Patriarca Portugues das Indias Orientais* or whatever his honorific title! -v - Original Message - From: Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com To: goanet goa...@goanet.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:28 PM Subject: [Goanet] Goan emigration -- 3 (Herald August 2 ) Antonio responds: I fully agree with what Valmiki has written ecept when he writes a large idle population of educated and not so ''' It somehow gives the impression that Goans who migrated to India were 90% educated and 10% illiterate whereas in reality it was the other way around i.e. 90% illiterate and 10% literate. The latter were mostly from the so called high castes fellas who were educated inthe parochial schools.. Thanks to the Grande Patriarca Portugues das Indias Orientais and his sacerdotal assistants comprising of the highest caste made by the Indian God, the illiterate Goan catholics were more at home with Jezu, Jezu than with A,B,C, and 1,2,3, The Goan catholic church may not have been entirely wrong in denying education to poor Goan catholics. Teotonio R.De Souza writing on Medieval Goa ( Herald Aug 1 ) quotes St. Paul writing toRomans Noli propter escam destruere opus Dei --- Do not destroy God's work for the sake of food.
[Goanet] Goan Emigration -3
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Hi Bosco, You have spoken as a Canadian. If you were a pukka Canadian, like my White Canadian brother-in-law who fought in WW II (landing on Normandy beach); he did not even know that Asian-Indians fought in the WW II, under the British flag (in North Africa, Italian front and Burma). After Whites are appraised of the Indian statistics, the Whites in Canada, America and Europe give more credit to the Indian sacrifice; than what is barely mentioned in the European history books on WW II. My beef with your point is: Indians should not have died in the Europe, Africa or defending British colonies in other parts of the world. WW II was not an Asian subcontinent / Indian Ocean war. I was surprised to see the Indian civilian causalities in the chart on WW II (1,500,000 to 2,500,000). Which theater of war were they victims? As Gabriel's post suggest, Indian sepoys were against fighting Gandhi and his followers; even for their British pay-masters. Regards, GL Bosco D'Mello Without seeking to diminish the sacrifices of Indians in the two large wars of the 20th century, I dont think it is appropriate to state India's contribution of fighting forces in plain numerical terms. A comparison of troops contributed and casualties incurred to the populations in each country perhaps will indicate many countries with smaller populations endured a fair share of the casualties - military and civilian. (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties (2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties -- Gabriel de Figueiredo broadcast by SBS (Australia's non-commercial TV channels), I gather that the main reason for giving India independence after WWII was the fact that the British commanders could no longer trust the loyalty of the Indian contigents, considering that they 1. joined with the German forces to fight the British when taken as POWs by the Germans 2. ditto with the POWs taken by the Japanese. Add to that the liaison between Subhas Chandra Bose and the Japs... --- Gilbert Lawrence To me, it appears the British recruited the Indians who were best suited for the job-at-hand ... naturally. Their sepoys were Gurkha, Sikhs and other ethnic Hindus with in-bred fighting skills. India provided Britain with 670,000 men for World War I and contributed two-and-a half million men for World War II. This was two-and-half times the contribution of Australia and four times the contribution of Canada.
[Goanet] Goan emigration -- 3 (Herald August 2 )
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Mr. Valmiki Faleiro has very succintly described the modern times Goan emigration as follows: ( and it is worth repeating word by word0 ' A queer British interlude in Goa ( 1799 - 1813 ) spurred the largest, longest, and yet surviving wave of Goan emigration , initially to the rest of India and on high seas ( Royal navy and merchant navy ) Then to Burma and Bahrain . And finally to British (East ) Africa,West Asia ( petro dollar Gulf area) and beyond ( U.K., Canada, U.S.A. , Australia and New Zealand. While in Goa the British spotted two assets: one natural (Mormugao Harbour and it connection to the hinterland Western Portuguese Railway WIP ) and the other human which was a large idle population of educated and not so , well acquainted with European life style ( read non vegetarian food) and hence mostly Goan ABC staff in British households in India followed by 2nd and 3rd generation clerks)' Antonio responds: I fully agree with what Valmiki has written ecept when he writes a large idle population of educated and not so ''' It somehow gives the impression that Goans who migrated to India were 90% educated and 10% illiterate whereas in reality it was the other way around i.e. 90% illiterate and 10% literate. The latter were mostly from the so called high castes fellas who were educated inthe parochial schools.. Thanks to the Grande Patriarca Portugues das Indias Orientais and his sacerdotal assistants comprising of the highest caste made by the Indian God, the illiterate Goan catholics were more at home with Jezu, Jezu than with A,B,C, and 1,2,3, The Goan catholic church may not have been entirely wrong in denying education to poor Goan catholics. Teotonio R.De Souza writing on Medieval Goa ( Herald Aug 1 ) quotes St. Paul writing toRomans Noli propter escam destruere opus Dei --- Do not destroy God's work for the sake of food.
[Goanet] Goan Emigration -3
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html The original article and Antonio's comments have useful pointers. I have not read the Herald Article. But I have a hunch that either St. Paul or Teotonio is being quoted out of context in relation to the education of the poor in Goa during Portuguese time. Clarification welcome. If one seeks to employ cooks, butlers, ayahs and nannies, why would one recruit educated individuals (men)? Was the education of Goans in the nineteenth century to do with caste or gender? Be it in Europe or India, education for better or worse, was a commodity expended on males than females. To me, it appears the British recruited the Indians who were best suited for the job-at-hand ... naturally. Their sepoys were Gurkha, Sikhs and other ethnic Hindus with in-bred fighting skills. India provided Britain with 670,000 men for World War I and contributed two-and-a half million men for World War II. This was two-and-half times the contribution of Australia and four times the contribution of Canada. Regards, GL - Antonio Menezes write: The Goan catholic church may not have been entirely wrong in denying education to poor Goan catholics. Teotonio R.De Souza writing on Medieval Goa (Herald Aug 1) quotes St. Paul writing to Romans ''Noli propter escam destruere opus Dei --- Do not destroy God's work for the sake of food.'' - By Valmiki Faleiro Retreating officers recruited 3,300 Goan sailors for the Royal Navy, a few thousand as clerks, and a few more thousand as cooks, butlers, ayahs and nannies. Rudyard Kipling, who spent his childhood in Bombay, was later to reminiscence, My ayah was Portuguese Roman catholic, who would pray, I beside her, at a wayside cross.
Re: [Goanet] Goan Emigration -3
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html -Original Message- From: Gilbert Lawrence To me, it appears the British recruited the Indians who were best suited for the job-at-hand ... naturally. Their sepoys were Gurkha, Sikhs and other ethnic Hindus with in-bred fighting skills. India provided Britain with 670,000 men for World War I and contributed two-and-a half million men for World War II. This was two-and-half times the contribution of Australia and four times the contribution of Canada. RESPONSE: Without seeking to diminish the sacrifices of Indians in the two large wars of the 20th century, I dont think it is appropriate to state India's contribution of fighting forces in plain numerical terms. A comparison of troops contributed and casualties incurred to the populations in each country perhaps will indicate many countries with smaller populations endured a fair share of the casualties - military and civilian. I am intrigued to learn of Goans who fought in past wars in various countries and are enlisted in the Indian armed forces in contemporary times. More on this another time. - B References: (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties (2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
