[Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
Good thoughts. My response. vjp From: Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com To: goa...@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde (DEL) Gilbert responds: I have had women tell me of images they have of me.:=)) But a guy who is an adroit and avante-garde painter? I am?all eyes and ears!?I would not make the association if you aim to sell that art-work.? But ... just may be, you could have 'a galaxy?of women' as potential customers for that painting. We both wish:=))? venantius j pinto; I have no clue. If you meaning painting Dellon and his activities -- no, If you happens to refer to something else I have done (perhaps not) -- then, I do not know. People should always free to interact with me. But trust me no one really does, except from time to time or two who simply want to ask the same old, same old.*** Recently there have been people interacting with me on FB. Not Goans. ***Often interactions go as: Ex: Whats new. Hi. Whats up. Whats new? Whats new.Hey, whats new/s. Kitem hem Pai che bens. Mai cho vistid!! What is whats new. (How many time the same crap) I finally have had to explain: Work to me may not be the same as work to you. All of us do different jobs, work, work as play, etc. WE (visual people and me for instance) are thinking all the time, trying to solve a problem -- not a world problem, but a visual one. So if I go to India, I may say visit caves, not come and visit someone who is simply angling to share their face with me. Point is to set something up. Lets have some baseline respect. In fact plan ahead, ask a question.Not close me in a fucking restaurant and have a gabfest. Lets drive somewhere, hangout -- they can go to sleep while I work, record document etc. Anyway. On selling: Speaking for myself, I am not dying to sell. Having said that, I just sold a piece. It was a straight transaction and this young person wanted me to have what I really wanted. One piece in a while. If you mean me as adroit -- I would say that I am that. But my application of anything nimble is more towards helping others see potential. I have come a long way and happy for that. No major Indian heavies (incl. Goans) has not given me the time of day, except for a few who are in the process of shaping themselves. People know I exist, lets just put it that way. I have generally stayed on good terms with most, but have had to tell a few (including more regular fold) where I stand. That too nicely. But its sadly fascinating to see their drive in their methodologies towards coaxing, carrot and stick, jamming into a corner )related to a launch, time, nature of request). Basically ones DEMONS, and the idea of USING. But all from so-called good families. Then there are those who want me to become famous and I ask why? So you feel good? Find someone else. But people are free to contact me for any number of things including if they wish to sit for me. It would be interesting to paint nudes. Some call that passe but that will never be. Its how one approaches anything. BUT I am not running after anyone. I have lots of ideas to work on, and serious studies for the next 13 years. But will always respect an interaction.Thanks. I am also happy to fulfill my self created role as one in artistic labor who shares thoughts, ideas, and opinions till I decide its time to stop. Happy to see Charudatta Prabhudesai doing it too. On a serious note,? a suggestion to paint an? Eagle rather than a vulture for many reasons. While working on the painting, given its theme, here is a song (my favorite)?to play. Wind Beneath My Wings. venantius j pinto: I explained about the vultures drawings. But I hear you. I will make it a point to listen to the song. Did. Good song. Did not know the title, but have heart it before. Thanks G. Btw, I never listen to music when I work or read. Best Gibert. (DEL) ? ++ vjp
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
Dear Jose, Thanks for your comments. They are much appreciated in trying to understand the people involved in this topic. I apologise if I have upset the people involved. Regards, Gabriel. PS Your understanding re bye-election appears to be correct. - Original Message From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Mon, 25 October, 2010 2:46:02 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde 1: I enjoyed reading Selma's account of her meeting with Mrs. Gaitonde. We have to accept Mrs. Gaitonde's version of events ...as her version. It is likely to contain some truth (as she knows it) and some revision with the passiage of time. Then again, she is 'talking' about her late husband. 2: Two questions obviously stand out: (a) when the court in Portugal tried Gaitonde for 'anti-State' activities, why did it give him an option of 'house-arrest'? (b) why did Gaitonde leave Goa after the Mapuca meeting which gave Bandodkar leadership of the MGP? (My understanding is that Bandodkar came in by way of a specially engineered bye-election after the MGP won).
[Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
-- Venantius J Pinto wrote Gilbert, you mean Charles Dellon, not Charles Dillon! I will be using your images as valuable reference for drawing in an old medium--silver point as well as in pen and ink with color washes. Gilbert responds: I have had women tell me of images they have of me.:=)) But a guy who is an adroit and avante-garde painter? I am all eyes and ears! I would not make the association if you aim to sell that art-work. But ... just may be, you could have 'a galaxy of women' as potential customers for that painting. We both wish:=)) On a serious note, a suggestion to paint an Eagle rather than a vulture for many reasons. While working on the painting, given its theme, here is a song (my favorite) to play. Wind Beneath My Wings. Finally, voi rre! Thost tho Charles Dellon! The romantic French doctor who was 'hitting on' the Damau military governor's mistress! What was he thinking? Then he goes on to write about that costly amorous-affair and present himself as the martyr to become the Patron Saint of physicians (who have affairs with their patient). But, from Charles Dellon we could all learn. It was bad enough that he was having an affair with a patient. His bigger crime that brought him to the Inquisition was his failure to realize his mistake and develop a corrective plan - seek counseling, end the relationship; and / or move his medical practice to another Portuguese outpost. Rather he sought to take-on the governor and the Inquisition. Big mistake on his part. Take it form someone who has sat on several physician disciplinary committee. Today, physicians loose their license for such offense without any Inquisition. That is left to the patient and her lawyer. And then the wife castrates guy through his wallet - a.k.a. divorce. Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
Dear Rico, The genteel world in which Dr Gaitonde also lived in the 50s (I found him very cultured.. feted by the crème de la crème of monarchal families says Edila) together with my father's generation, has nothing to do with my question, which is, why did Dr. Gaitonde leave Goa soon after Congress lost so drastically in the first elections? If you have a valid answer to this question, I'd be happy to accept it. And another question, after reading Edila's account, is why did Dr. Gaitonde suddenly decide that Goa was his place after Gandhi was assassinated? Was it something that Gandhi said to him earlier that kept him away from Goa and Goan politics of the time? (There are allegations in at least one publication that when Gandhi was approached by some Goan freedom fighters, he sent them away with a warning that theirs wasn't a genuine cause). Now, neatly sidestepping from the issues relating to Dr. Pundalica Gaitonde, I don't know in what way the essay that JC pointed out was indicative of elite. What you and most of the world don't realise is that respect and the world my father lived in, was earned - not obtained on a plate. Please note that contrary to Dr. Gaitonde, my father carried on in Goa working hard to establish the Academia de Musica (without which the Kala Academy would not have come into existence), despite all adversities encountered along the way. He respected his musicians (of the Orquestra Sinfonica de Goa) most of whom were farm workers and mestris in churches, and was respected in return (comments made by late Mr. Tony oboe Noronha of London). His attitude, like most of those in Government of Estado da India Portuguesa of those times, was if you can do the job, its yours. He never considered himself elite but rather, down-to-earth, and taught us youngsters the value of hard work, charity, respect and restraint through example. I am glad you prefer at times to live in a world of corruption, communalism and a whole lot of other problems thrown in: that is your prerogative -- rather like better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven of Paradise Lost. Gabriel. - Original Message From: Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Sat, 23 October, 2010 9:15:58 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde With due respect, and I don't mean this to be personal... but that genteel world could also be called part of a tiny Goan elite, a part of which never got accustomed to the demise of colonialism. [The essay that JC points to is indicative. Try GoogleTranslate or some Firefox plugin if needed.] It was also out of touch with the aspirations and perspectives of the bulk of Goans, and till date won't even concede how narrow the peak of the pre-1961 Goan pyramid was. Which is why, at times, the changes of the last 50 years -- corruption, communalism and a whole lot of other problems thrown in -- do seem to be a somewhat better alternative! FN On 23 October 2010 00:17, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Incidentally, I came across a picture of your father on the Oheraldo dated January 1954 playing to an audience at the inaguaration of the Musica Academy. I understand that wonderful, genteel world your family was part of, it was a grand world indeed.
[Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
I think our friends spectacles are getting thicker by the day. All Goan spectra has opened its eyes and are denouncing the current colonial rule vehemently. BC With due respect, and I don't mean this to be personal... but that genteel world could also be called part of a tiny Goan elite, a part of which never got accustomed to the demise of colonialism. [The essay that JC points to is indicative. Try GoogleTranslate or some Firefox plugin if needed.] It was also out of touch with the aspirations and perspectives of the bulk of Goans, and till date won't even concede how narrow the peak of the pre-1961 Goan pyramid was.
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
--- Carvalho wrote: I've read the book, In search of tomorrow, it doesn't shed any light on Congress' huge loss following Liberation. One of the most wonderful thing about interviewing people is getting to know their own point of view. Incidentally, I came across a picture of your father on the Oheraldo dated January 1954 playing to an audience at the inauguration of the Musica Academy. I understand that wonderful, genteel world your family was part of, it was a grand world indeed. --- Frederick Noronha With due respect, and I don't mean this to be personal... but that genteel world could also be called part of a tiny Goan elite, a part of which never got accustomed to the demise of colonialism. It was also out of touch with the aspirations and perspectives of the bulk of Goans, and till date won't even concede how narrow the peak of the pre-1961 Goan pyramid was. GL responds. My first reaction to reading my good friend Selma's post was, What was in that tea she was drinking? If 1954 Goa was a wonderful and genteel world, why were genteel persons like Edila Gaitonde fighting to end it? I have always wondered why would one fight for independence, and leave Goa on achieving their cherished goal. Edila claims Mahatma Gandhi's passing was a turning point for Pundalik. Mahatma Gandhi did not seek political office and was a greater force outside the politics of Congress, Muslim League, elected and appointed office-holders, etc. So why was Mahatma Gandhi in the 1940's not a role-model for Pundalik in the 1960's? As senior statesman and wise physician one would think he would make a greater contribution to Goa and Goan society outside politics. Selma's interview appears to be another example where educated and articulate Goans loose their analytic and logical mind when they drink English tea from a Royal Dalton cup or fancy 'bone-china' with lace-napkins and British-crumpets; or when Brown skin meets White. After writing a book on Diaspora Goans, the 1954-Goa was a genteel world? Amazing! She forgot about the main economy and comfortable life style of the bureaucrats, civil servants and fidalgos of Goa was based on remittances of hundreds of thousands of separated Goan families. The point in her first paragraph (and the comments made in response) is telling how self-promoting accounts, recorded in real time, can present, exaggerate, hide and distort the actual facts, circumstances and history; depending on the individual's bias and POV (point of view). Currently the self-account by Charles Dillon is considered an authoritative / reference book on the Goa Inquisition. (Venantius please note.:=)) Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
On 24 October 2010 07:25, Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Dear Rico, [1] Now, neatly sidestepping from the issues relating to Dr. Pundalica Gaitonde, I don't know in what way the essay that JC pointed out was indicative of elite. [2] What you and most of the world don't realise is that respect and the world my father lived in, was earned - not obtained on a plate. [3] my father carried on in Goa working hard to establish the Academia de Musica (without which the Kala Academy would not have come into existence), [4] like most of those in Government of Estado da India Portuguesa of those times, was if you can do the job, its yours. He never considered himself elite but rather, down-to-earth, and taught us youngsters the value of hard work, charity, respect and restraint through example. [5] I am glad you prefer at times to live in a world of corruption, communalism and a whole lot of other problems thrown in: that is your prerogative -- rather like better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven of Paradise Lost. My dear Gabriel, A few points about Gaitonde before a comment or two about Rico. 1: I enjoyed reading Selma's account of her meeting with Mrs. Gaitonde. We have to accept Mrs. Gaitonde's version of events ...as her version. It is likely to contain some truth (as she knows it) and some revision with the passiage of time. Then again, she is 'talking' about her late husband. 2: Two questions obviously stand out: (a) when the court in Portugal tried Gaitonde for 'anti-State' activities, why did it give him an option of 'house-arrest'? (b) why did Gaitonde leave Goa after the Mapuca meeting which gave Bandodkar leadership of the MGP? (My understanding is that Bandodkar came in by way of a specially engineered bye-election after the MGP won). 3: Rico's views are based on a format he has developed. He has formed an opinion and now he is tailoring the facts to fit into that opinion. I hate (or perhaps, not) to bring up the Rico role in the bogus Daman bridge and the partially bogus Siddi interview-story to illustrate Rico's 'justified' opinion. 4: Gilbert Lawrence has made a good point on the financial remittances of Goans who worked elsewhere. These contributions helped Goans live better, per capita, than their counterparts in other parts of the subcontinent. Additional facets which helped the 'better life style' include: Portuguese subsidies (esp during the Indian blockade of Goa), a relatively clean environment, the absence of the baksheesh system and simple Rice and Fish Curry living. Then, there were the classy functions, wedding and events which led by way of example. My recollection of life in the Goa is from the late 1960s early 1970sand how 'genteel' it was. Thereafter, the baksheesh system took hold.to reach the prevailing 'brilliance' that is evident now. Just as an aside, one still sees that 'genteel' demeanour of those days - in today's world - when one meets with or talks to individuals like Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, Ben Antao and Tony Correia-Afonso (just to name a few Goans who are on GoaNet). 5: I do not agree with your submission that Rico prefers to live in a world of corruption, communalism and a whole lot of other problems thrown in than to live in the genteel Goa that was. First of all, he and individuals like him may or may not have a choice or be wary of the choices. Secondly, I do not believe that the corruption et al that you talk about are of Rico's making or because of his contribution. As far as I see it, Rico and individuals like him are striving hard to make the best with the cards dealt to them. On the plus side, they do not have to deal with Portuguese colonialism. One should not discount the strength inherent in that sentiment; whether another form of colonialism has occupied the vacuum caused by the exit of the Portuguese is another matter. jc
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
When 'arseholes' have mega inferiority complexes, one can understand how they pee in the middle of the night --- outside the toilet bowl??? with the aim having been staggered. :-)) When the colonialism of today, camouflaged with the stupid so called 'democracy' (when these punks cannot even get the electoral roll straight for nuts) is trying to compete with sincerity and hardwork of the Goan genteels of yesteryears and trying hard to deny that what is Goa's fame today is because of their sweat, escape is found by calling them collaborators. How shallow can they be??? Cheers floriano goasuraj www.goasu-raj.org PS: This refers to the genteel elite comment :-)) - Original Message - From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 4:44 PM Subject: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde I think our friends spectacles are getting thicker by the day. All Goan spectra has opened its eyes and are denouncing the current colonial rule vehemently. BC With due respect, and I don't mean this to be personal... but that genteel world could also be called part of a tiny Goan elite, a part of which never got accustomed to the demise of colonialism. [The essay that JC points to is indicative. Try GoogleTranslate or some Firefox plugin if needed.] It was also out of touch with the aspirations and perspectives of the bulk of Goans, and till date won't even concede how narrow the peak of the pre-1961 Goan pyramid was.
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
Gilbert, you mean Charles Dellon, not Charles Dillon! (Goa and the Green Bay Packers!). Interesting you were reminded of me, right when I am gearing up to draw vultures among all things -- making vulturine associations through drawings. Your mentioning the Inquisition will undeniably add a layer at least conceptually to my renderings. Consider the below, as a bit of extraneous sharing -- look at the last sentence in the second paragraph. +++ My thank you note early morning today to a sterling Indian wildlife/bird photographer) who has provided me with images of vultures was: First of all these are awesome. Secondly, I am glad that [deleted]-ji got us together. More power to your friendship. I will be using your images as valuable reference for drawing in an old medium--silver point as well as in pen and ink with color washes. If something else comes up I will ask you first. Between these images I am getting a sense of the anatomy--the image of the Cinerous vuture gives a good sense of the wing unfurled. They look sinister yet regal when not even in flight. It will be a while before I begin drawing, but this is a fantastic resource for me get into this head space which I am attempting to articulate. Although the drawings will be of the birds--one is attempting to convey the shift in predatory equivalence to the human in Indian contemporaneity and lived existence. (DEL) +++ The shift I mention is about flipping the idea of brink of extinctionas in embracing hardline mindsets, lacking allegria, as well as the egalitarian spirit. And I am not being remotely nostalgic; simply do not have the luxury nor the right to feel thus. In my case its both as an observer, and perhaps also in autobiographical vein. Time will tell more. Best all. venantius j pinto From: Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com To: goa...@goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde (DEL) Currently the self-account by Charles Dillon is considered an authoritative / reference book on the Goa Inquisition.? (Venantius please note.:=)) Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde (Frederick Noronha)
FN wrote:- With due respect, and I don't mean this to be personal... but that genteel world could also be called part of a tiny Goan elite, a part of which never got accustomed to the demise of colonialism. RE:I quite like that. I knew of some of that wonderful and genteel folk myself, having lived in Fontainhas in the seventies. Last year I saw one in 'George', near National. He appeared just as he did all those years ago - neatly combed black, sleek hair; full sleeved pin-striped, off-white shirt neatly tucked into the snug fastening of broad leather belt; well polished and pointed black leather shoes. I watched him at his drink, sitting alone at the corner(p'haps reserved?) table from where he could regard the world passing outside by. I had noticed that the waiter brought him his drink without him ordering it when he walked into the bar. 'Orrad' he sat there and drank without hurry, giving an impression of someone who knew how alcohol was to be savoured. He also used his kerchief like no one else in that bar did that evening. Those traits set him apart, apart from the colour of his skin which was ruddy-fair-like Europeans. His stare, uninterruptedly fixed somewhere in the center of the open door frame, was another telling trait. I was drinking with friends but I observed, and as I think of it in response to FN's observation, I surmise that this studied behaviour was designed. It was designed to inspire awe and aloofness. Indeed, he seemed to belong to a by-past era, yet he lived it in the here now, yet a now all his personal present, private and very esoteric,one that was present in his mind alone, to be shared by no one other than himself. Charudatta Prabhudesai Auroville . India.
[Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
http://www.goanvoice.org.uk/gvuk_files/Edila_Gaitonde.pdf Excerpt: It’s a beautiful autumn day. The sun has pierced through a persistently, disgruntled London sky, the leaves are a mélange of orange, red and green and one or two chimneys are prematurely belching the first soot of the season. Autumn is neither life nor death. The blades of green life one sees in summer will soon turn into burial mounds for the dying debris of winter. Autumn is a rite of passage to death and eventual rebirth. So it is with a sense of autumnal dichotomy that I travel to meet Edila Gaitonde, wife of Dr Pundalik Gaitonde, to learn more about their role in the Liberation of Goa. A thorny subject. It should have been a rite of passage for Goa, into renewal and a new life but opinion remains divided even 50 years after the fact. I’m met at the door by the elegant Edila and Savita Apte, Dr Gaitonde’s niece.
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
Looks like Edila did not quite understand the meaning of India. Goa is part of India she says. So is the whole of Bengal and the whole of Sind (check the Indian national anthem) were parts of (British) India. So why is Bengal divided into East Bengal (India) and a separate country now called Bangladesh? Why wasn't Bangladesh annexed to India in 1971 as Goa was? Why is there a country called Pakistan today? And what about Sri Lanka which was also part of a region called Bharat in ancient times? Instead of settling in Bombay or in other parts of Indiahe wanted to be in Goa. If this was so, why did Pundalica leave Goa almost as soon as he lost his Congress seat? Grapes were sour? My apologies if I hurt sentiments by saying this, but to me it sort of indicates that, just like Nehru, Pundalica wanted to rule the roost as the first Chief Minister of Goa; unfortunately for him, he could not be appointed as Nehru was, but had to face an election that resulted in a trouncing to remember for Congress. It appears to me that it wasn't Goan people he was thinking about when he went to Delhi and organised his Afro-Asian Seminar in October 1961 to force Nehru's hand, but his own glory. Despite very detailed accounts in his book relating to the movements leading to the actions of Dec 1961 and the aftermath, he does not mention the loss of Congress (and his seat) nor the reasons that led him to leave the country. I have been on the lookout for Edila's book In search of tomorow to see if there was another explanation to bust my foregoing theories, but have been so far unsuccessful in procuring a copy. BTW, on pg 175 of PD Gaitonde's The Liberation of Goa, there is a mention Franco Nogueira's biography of Salazar ... in a plebiscite carried out by the Delhi Government, Goans were asked if they accept or reject the integration of India (Grande India). The results show: 138,170 votes for integration, 172,191 against... . Did Franco Nogueira mistake the Opinion Poll for a plebiscite? - Original Message From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Fri, 22 October, 2010 6:44:21 PM Subject: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde http://www.goanvoice.org.uk/gvuk_files/Edila_Gaitonde.pdf
[Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
Dear Gabriel, I've read the book, In search of tomorrow, it doesn't shed any light on Congress' huge loss following Liberation. The book is out of print but a second edition perhaps is in the pipeline. I spoke with Edila for a long time, she's a lovely lady. The Gaitonde's politics was shaped by their own experiences. One of the most wonderful thing about interviewing people is getting to know their own point of view. Incidentally, I came across a picture of your father on the Oheraldo dated January 1954 playing to an audience at the inaguaration of the Musica Academy. I understand that wonderful, genteel world your family was part of, it was a grand world indeed. Best wishes, selma
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
http://www.colaco.net/1/FMantonioFigueiredoBio.htm jc On 22 October 2010 14:47, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Gabriel, Incidentally, I came across a picture of your father on the Oheraldo dated January 1954 playing to an audience at the inaguaration of the Musica Academy. I understand that wonderful, genteel world your family was part of, it was a grand world indeed.
Re: [Goanet] Interview of Edila wife of Pundalik Gaitonde
With due respect, and I don't mean this to be personal... but that genteel world could also be called part of a tiny Goan elite, a part of which never got accustomed to the demise of colonialism. [The essay that JC points to is indicative. Try GoogleTranslate or some Firefox plugin if needed.] It was also out of touch with the aspirations and perspectives of the bulk of Goans, and till date won't even concede how narrow the peak of the pre-1961 Goan pyramid was. Which is why, at times, the changes of the last 50 years -- corruption, communalism and a whole lot of other problems thrown in -- do seem to be a somewhat better alternative! FN On 23 October 2010 00:17, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Incidentally, I came across a picture of your father on the Oheraldo dated January 1954 playing to an audience at the inaguaration of the Musica Academy. I understand that wonderful, genteel world your family was part of, it was a grand world indeed.
