Re: [Goanet] "All religions cannot be equal"
Sandeep, Which statement of mine on Goanet are you responding to? The post you think you are responding to was not allowed to appear on Goanet. I guess the moderators decided that Goanetters did not deserve to read my side of the argument. I am hoping this response of mine will not be blocked like the previous one. So here goes. You have a basic misunderstanding of what I wrote, and what is meant by equality of religions, as it is understood by modern secular pluralism. Equality as understood by modern society does not mean identity. Otherwise, equality of all human beings would be a sham because no two human beings are identical. What I wrote is not my interpretation of the law. It is my statement of the credo of modern secular pluralism. No religion is better or superior to any other religion. No religion is worse or inferior to any other religion. In other words, all religions are equally good. The interpretation that this is also the bedrock creed of the Indian constitution, as interpreted by the supreme court is what Justice Gupte stated in the following quote: QUOTE Art. 25 of the Constitutional creed is the bed-rock of secularism and is based on the belief that all religions are equally good and efficacious pathways to perfection of God-realization. UNQUOTE ..Justice Gulab Gupte Please read Justice Gupte's entire article at the following link: http://www.indiankanoon.org/cached/1736032/ Having read a little bit about what exactly is meant by equality in modern thought, I can fully understand the sense in which Justice Gupte expounds that tacit belief inherent in article 25. The statements I have made regarding equality are my understanding of the extended notion of equality as it applies to modern secular society. As I said earlier, equality does not mean identity or even similarity. That is why I have used general non-specific terms such as good, bad, supernatural, rational and beneficial as parameters for comparison between religions. To know why, all one has to do is use an analogous statement whose validity no sensible, non-prejudiced person would deny today. This statement is: All races and ethnic groups are equally good. Now, does this mean that if you measure the crime rate, the incidence of sociopathy, the percentage of individuals behind bars, the percentage of corrupt individuals, etc., all their values would be equal across all races and ethnic groups? The answer to this question is demonstrably no. Different groups might have different values for these parameters. But it does not invalidate the above statement of equality. The reason for this is goodness is an overall balanced norm and an ideal that is shared by all normal humans regardless of race or ethnicity. The same is true with religion or lack thereof. If you don't agree with this, and your particular form of Indian secularism holds that all religions are not equally good then please answer my questions below: 1. Which religion according to you is the best? 2. Which religion is better - Hinduism or Christianity? 3. Which sect of Christianity is better than the rest? It is no good saying that one is better in one respect and another in another respect. Please give me a straightforward categorical answer based on your understanding of the norm of each religion or sect. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 8/22/10, Sandeep Heble wrote: > > Santosh has misinterpreted the > provisions of law and has drawn wrong > conclusions. > > Nowhere in the Constitution of the land does it say that > "All > religions are equally good or equally bad". > > Religions have their own distinct features and > characteristics and can > therefore never be equal. From different standpoints, some > are bound > to be either superior or inferior to the other. > > Even using elementary logic, it is easy to show how from > different > standpoints, some religions are bound to be either better > or worse > than the other. > > For instance, from the standpoint of equality of human > beings, > Christianity is superior to Hinduism while it is inferior > to Buddhism. > > From the standpoint of "Freedom of expression", Hinduism > will be much > superior since Christianity and Islam have a history of > intolerance in > this regard. > > From the standpoint of rationalism, Buddhism is much > superior to many > other religions while Jainism will probably be the best > when it comes > to respecting "Animal Rights" and so on and so forth. > > So even an elementary comparative study on religions will > easily > demonstrate how two different religions can never be > equally good (or > equally bad). > > From the legal perspective, “Equality of Religion” does > not mean all > religions are equally good or equally bad. All it means is > the State > must adopt neutrality towards religions; that there must > not be a > State Religion, that it must not give preferential > treatment to any > one religion over the other; that all
Re: [Goanet] All religions cannot be equal......
From: "Mervyn Lobo" < All religions are equally unequal except when they unequally equal, although I have heard some religions are equally equal when they are not unequally unequal. Hope this helps and clarifies the matter. **I am sorry. this is riduculous. You are mocking at the structural dimension of human existence, religion. I do not know what religion or a-religion you are following or not following... Regards. Fr.Ivo George, Someone got it exactly right the other day when he sent a quote here that suggested: <<"When you convert from one religion to another, all you are doing is exchanging one cage for another." ***Every institution is like a cage. But we need cages for our education and life. What about children? Are they not in your cage? What about you wife? Is she not in your cage? What about marriage? Is it not a cage? But we are born, grow and prosper in these "cages". We should learn to grow in freedom. That is the secret of Religion. "The Truth will make you free" (cf.Jn 8:32). <**Quite natural. In a dialogue we depart from the absolute, which is the experience of God (faith-experience) in our own religion and culture. I should investigate it and live by it. There is no possibility for us to live if we are not anchoring in reality and truth, the truth of our existence, the truth of our faith, the truth of our religion. For the non-believers, these religious arguments are an endless source of amusement... ***I agree to disagree with you. There is no non-believer or atheist in the world, if you understand what I mean. There is an absolute truth for everyone. Nobody can live in a vacuum. We absolutize often wrongly. This issue cannot be "endless source of amusement" for anyone, for it is a question of survival in life. The world is full of problems on account of this mystery of human existence. You have not yet understood well the issue. Sorry to say. Regards. Fr.Ivo * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Goa-launch of the well-received *Into The Diaspora Wilderness* by Selma Carvalho on Aug 29, 2010 (Sunday) at 11 am at Ravindra Bhavan, Margao. Meet the author, buy a signed copy (only Rs 295 in Goa till stock lasts). http://selmacarvalho.squarespace.com/
[Goanet] "All religions cannot be equal"
Santosh has misinterpreted the provisions of law and has drawn wrong conclusions. Nowhere in the Constitution of the land does it say that "All religions are equally good or equally bad". Religions have their own distinct features and characteristics and can therefore never be equal. From different standpoints, some are bound to be either superior or inferior to the other. Even using elementary logic, it is easy to show how from different standpoints, some religions are bound to be either better or worse than the other. For instance, from the standpoint of equality of human beings, Christianity is superior to Hinduism while it is inferior to Buddhism. >From the standpoint of "Freedom of expression", Hinduism will be much superior since Christianity and Islam have a history of intolerance in this regard. >From the standpoint of rationalism, Buddhism is much superior to many other religions while Jainism will probably be the best when it comes to respecting "Animal Rights" and so on and so forth. So even an elementary comparative study on religions will easily demonstrate how two different religions can never be equally good (or equally bad). >From the legal perspective, “Equality of Religion” does not mean all religions are equally good or equally bad. All it means is the State must adopt neutrality towards religions; that there must not be a State Religion, that it must not give preferential treatment to any one religion over the other; that all religions are equal before the eyes of the law and must be treated equally. Here is the precise observation from the relevant para from the S. R. Bommai v. Union of India Supreme Court Judgment: “Secularism is one of the basic features of the Constitution. While freedom of religion is guaranteed to all persons in India, from the point of view of the State, the religion, faith or belief of a person is immaterial. To the State, all are equal and are entitled to be treated equally. In matters of State, religion has no place. No political party can simultaneously be a religious party. Politics and religion cannot be mixed. Any State Government which pursues unsecular policies or unsecular course of action acts contrary to the constitutional mandate and renders itself amenable to action under Article 356.” Cheers Sandeep * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ISSUES BEING DEBATED: In East Africa, despite colonialism, the British afforded the Goan a sliver of a socio-political voice. Read *Into The Diaspora Wilderness* by Selma Carvalho. Soon to be available in Toronto. Pp 290. Via mail-order from goa1...@gmail.com http://selmacarvalho.squarespace.com/
Re: [Goanet] "All religions cannot be equal"
From: "Cajetan Alvares" *As a secular pluralist, I believe that one's religious views are* *his/her own problem, as long as they do not cause harm to humanity. * What if Religion DOES harm society and humanity? As is in Somalia, Indonesia, the poor north part of Nigeria, etc (with the exception of help with petrol $ countries) To know about that religion one simply has to visit www.wikiislam.net Some knowledge is better than no knowledge, and Santosh will then stop repeating to keep Fr Ivo happy. = For Fr Ivo said: Let Santosh not repeat the blunder again and again... ***I do not need any support from anyone. If a religion harms, then it is not a genuine religion, it has to be radically reformed. A religion cannot harm. Neither should people harm in the name of religion. Religion is being degenerated into an oppressing ideology. To say that "all religions are equally good" is, therefore, a blunder, if there are religions that harm the people. Religions with contradictory tenets cannot be equally good. This is absurd. Let Santosh not repeat the blunder again and again and mislead the readers. Regards. Ivo
Re: [Goanet] All religions cannot be equal
A lot of the material in the post appended below has been selectively lifted
verbatim from a blogger named Siddhartha from Bangalore, without giving him
credit, without putting his text in quotation marks, and without providing a
link to one of his webpages containing this text. Please see for example:
http://pipaltree.org.in/index.php?page=the-equality-of-religions
Moreover, the funny thing is that what he has quoted from Gandhi vindicates the
secular pluralistic position of both Gandhi and the Indian constitution i.e.
all religions are equal - equal before the law and equally good.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Ivo wrote:
>
> ***This is not a value judgment given by Manmohan Singh, it
> is alien to his
> speech. How can Manmohan Singh have a say on this topic?
> When we take part
> in the interfaith dialogue, we share our religious
> insights, precisely
> because our religions are not equal. This is a crass,
> supine blunder. The
> believers of different religions pledge to work for harmony
> and peace, for
> the human integral development.We come together on the
> concept of "Kingdom
> of God" ("Ramarajya" or "Golden Age"). The task of
> establishing the Kingdom
> of God, the New Society is not a monopoly of Christian
> communities. The
> Kingdom is the concern of everyone: individuals, society,
> and the world.
> Christian communities are called to work, in solidarity
> with others, for the
> establishment of a New Society, the Kingdom of God.
>
> <<...just as all human beings are equal. When
> > we view each other as equals, we try to live in
> harmony.
> **Yes, all human beings are equal (in humanity and human
> rights), before the Law. Yet India
> does not recognize it in practice. (Manmohan Singh, Prime
> Minister of India). Manmohan Singh is not giving a
> value-judgement about world religions, but a
> socio-political-legal statement. Would he accept that
> Sikhism and polythetistic Hinduism are "equal", equally
> good, equally acceptable to him? Would you accept that
> Hinduism, agnosticism and atheism (which is based on faith,
> not in science) are equallly good? Atheism, agnosticism,
> marxism are called "quasi-religions".
> >
> > Great thinkers such as Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandhi
> have also
> > espoused the equality of all religions.
> ***You are absolutely wrong.
> 1. The Constitution of India does not says that "all
> religions are equal", or equally good.
> "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to
> constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR
> DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:
> JUSTICE, social, economic and political;
>
> LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and
> worship;
>
> EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
>
> and to promote among them all
>
> FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the
> unity and integrity of the Nation;
>
> IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of
> November, 1949, DO HERE BY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO
> OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION". The art.14 says: "Equality
> before law: The State shall not deny to any person equality
> before the law or the equal protection of the laws within
> the territory of India Prohibition of discrimination on
> grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth".
>
> 2. Swami Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandi spoke always in the
> context of communal harmony:
>
> "As different streams, having their sources in different
> places, all mingle their water in
> the sea, so, O Lord, the different paths which men take
> through different
> tendencies, various though they appear, crooked or
> straight, all lead to
> Thee."
> In his speech in Chicago, Swami Vivekananda said: "I will
> quote to you, brethren, a few lines from a hymn which I
> remember to
> have repeated from my earliest boyhood, which is every day
> repeated by
> millions of human beings: "As the different streams having
> their sources in
> different paths which men take through different
> tendencies, various though
> they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to Thee."
> The present convention, which is one of the most august
> assemblies ever
> held, is in itself a vindication, a declaration to the
> world of the
> wonderful doctrine preached in the Gita: "Whosoever comes
> to Me, through
> whatsoever form, I reach him; all men are struggling
> through paths which in
> the end lead to me."
>
> "Sectarianism, bigotry, and its horrible descendant,
> fanaticism, have long possessed this beautiful earth. They
> have filled the
> earth with violence, drenched it often and often with
> human blood, destroyed
> civilization and sent whole nations to despair. Had it not
> been for these
> horrible demons, human society would be far more advanced
> than it is now.
> But their time is come; and I fervently hope that the bell
> that tolled this
> morning in honor of this convention may be the death-knell
> of all
> fanaticism, of all persecutions
[Goanet] "All religions cannot be equal"
*As a secular pluralist, I believe that one's religious views are* *his/her own problem, as long as they do not cause harm to humanity. * What if Religion DOES harm society and humanity? As is in Somalia, Indonesia, the poor north part of Nigeria, etc (with the exception of help with petrol $ countries) To know about that religion one simply has to visit www.wikiislam.net Some knowledge is better than no knowledge, and Santosh will then stop repeating to keep Fr Ivo happy. = For Fr Ivo said: Let Santosh not repeat the blunder again and again...
[Goanet] All religions cannot be equal
--- On Wed, 8/18/10, Frederick Noronha wrote: I disagree with Santosh's attempts to mix both up, or the suggestion that one's religious views would be decided by the State's approach to a >[parallel] matter. >... As a secular pluralist, I believe that one's religious views are his/her own problem, as long as they do not cause harm to humanity. All I have been saying is that, as the Prime Minister stated, the secular Indian constitution rightly holds that all religions are equal. What is funny is that Santosh does not understand that according to the Constitution of India, alluded to by Mohan Singh, all religions are equal under the Law; therefore, all have to be equally respected. It does not mean that all religions are equally good. Even atheism, agnosticism, marxism, which are "quasi-religions", in the expression of Paul Tillich, are to be respected. It does not mean that theism and atheism are equally good, because, being contradictory terms, they would destroy each other, and nothing would have remained... Both cannot be equally good. This is illogical, irrational, absurd. Let Santosh not repeat the blunder again and again... Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] All religions cannot be equal
From: "Santosh Helekar"
Scholars who understand and respect the constitution of India, such as
the prime minister of India reject the claim that the concept that
"all religions are equal" is wrong in a secular country.
Please see: http://pmindia.nic.in/speech/content.asp?id=524
When we say our Constitution is secular, we mean that it espouses the
separation of religion from politics and governance. Equally, it means
that the Constitution accords equal status to all religious faiths.
The idea of equality is important
...All religions are equal,...
***This is not a value judgment given by Manmohan Singh, it is alien to his
speech. How can Manmohan Singh have a say on this topic? When we take part
in the interfaith dialogue, we share our religious insights, precisely
because our religions are not equal. This is a crass, supine blunder. The
believers of different religions pledge to work for harmony and peace, for
the human integral development.We come together on the concept of "Kingdom
of God" ("Ramarajya" or "Golden Age"). The task of establishing the Kingdom
of God, the New Society is not a monopoly of Christian communities. The
Kingdom is the concern of everyone: individuals, society, and the world.
Christian communities are called to work, in solidarity with others, for the
establishment of a New Society, the Kingdom of God.
<<...just as all human beings are equal. When
we view each other as equals, we try to live in harmony.
**Yes, all human beings are equal (in humanity and human rights), before the
Law. Yet India
does not recognize it in practice. (Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister of
India). Manmohan Singh is not giving a value-judgement about world
religions, but a socio-political-legal statement. Would he accept that
Sikhism and polythetistic Hinduism are "equal", equally good, equally
acceptable to him? Would you accept that Hinduism, agnosticism and atheism
(which is based on faith, not in science) are equallly good? Atheism,
agnosticism, marxism are called "quasi-religions".
Great thinkers such as Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandhi have also
espoused the equality of all religions.
***You are absolutely wrong.
1. The Constitution of India does not says that "all religions are equal",
or equally good.
"WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India
into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all
its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;
LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;
EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
and to promote among them all
FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and
integrity of the Nation;
IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, DO
HERE BY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION". The art.14
says: "Equality before law: The State shall not deny to any person equality
before the law or the equal protection of the laws within the territory of
India Prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex
or place of birth".
2. Swami Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandi spoke always in the context of
communal harmony:
"As different streams, having their sources in different places, all
mingle their water in
the sea, so, O Lord, the different paths which men take through different
tendencies, various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to
Thee."
In his speech in Chicago, Swami Vivekananda said: "I will quote to you,
brethren, a few lines from a hymn which I remember to
have repeated from my earliest boyhood, which is every day repeated by
millions of human beings: "As the different streams having their sources
in
different paths which men take through different tendencies, various
though
they appear, crooked or straight, all lead to Thee."
The present convention, which is one of the most august assemblies ever
held, is in itself a vindication, a declaration to the world of the
wonderful doctrine preached in the Gita: "Whosoever comes to Me, through
whatsoever form, I reach him; all men are struggling through paths which
in
the end lead to me."
"Sectarianism, bigotry, and its horrible descendant,
fanaticism, have long possessed this beautiful earth. They have filled the
earth with violence, drenched it often and often with human blood,
destroyed
civilization and sent whole nations to despair. Had it not been for these
horrible demons, human society would be far more advanced than it is now.
But their time is come; and I fervently hope that the bell that tolled
this
morning in honor of this convention may be the death-knell of all
fanaticism, of all persecutions with the sword or with the pen, and of all
uncharitable feelings between persons wending their way to the same goal".
3. Gandhi propagated the notion of Sarvadharma Samabhava, the equality of
all religions. This is an important notion,
particul
[Goanet] "All religions cannot be equal"
Santosh Helekar wrote: > --- On Wed, 8/18/10, Frederick Noronha wrote: > > > >I disagree with Santosh's attempts to mix both up, or the suggestion that > >one's religious views would be decided by the State's approach to a > >>[parallel] matter. > > > > This is Admin Noronha's fabricated view of what my attempts have been. > He has tried to put words in my mouth twice now. So once again, my > attempts have nothing to do with what he is claiming here. I don't > know how to be more clear than I have already been in this thread. Let > me now just say flat out that I have never suggested that "one's > religious views would be decided by the State's approach to a > [parallel] matter." I don't even understand what this statement he has > put in my mouth means. > > As a secular pluralist, I believe that one's religious views are > his/her own problem, as long as they do not cause harm to humanity. > All I have been saying is that, as the Prime Minister stated, the > secular Indian constitution rightly holds that all religions are > equal. I don't care what Fr. Ivo's parochial Catholic beliefs, Dr. > Barad's parochial Hindu beliefs or Admin Noronha's parochial > Atheist/Agnostic beliefs are on this matter. **What is funny is that Santosh does not understand that according to the Constitution of India, alluded to by Mohan Singh, all religions are equal under the Law; therefore, all have to be equally respected. It does not mean that all religions are equally good. Even atheism, agnosticism, marxism, which are "quasi-religions", in the expression of Paul Tillich, are to be respected. It does not mean that theism and atheism are equally good, because, being contradictory terms, they would destroy each other, and nothing would have remained... Let Santosh not repeat the blunder again and again... Regards. Fr.Ivo
