Re: [Goanet] Casmiro Monteiro ............ 1950's / LHS
An interesting thread of March 2008. https://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg26289.html Roland. Toronto.
Re: [Goanet] Casmiro Monteiro ............ 1950's / LHS
Hi John, haven"t heard from you for a long time on Goanet.
Hope you and yours are all well.
Glad to hear from you if you have a moment.
Roland.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 4:31 PM JOHN MONTEIRO
wrote:
> Dear Fred
>
> Many thanks for your kind words. Forgive me for such a long email reply
> but it will help a little perhaps in knowing more about my father, if he is
> the Casimiro Monteiro we talking about.
>
> Yes you are right this ought not to be a witch hunt as such but gaps are
> gaps, and as you say, they are pre-1961 & post 1961 & ought to be filled,
> if not just for my sake, really for posterity, though its 57 years since I
> first set foot in Goa and now, its some 47 years since I "left" ("fled" was
> more like it if I remember correctly) I was not able to bring forth all the
> memories that one is meant to.
>
> Creeping memory loss it is not, I was not able to remember much of my
> childhood from my teen years in the mid to late 60's because we were
> forbidden by mother to speak Portuguese or Konkani or to discuss anything
> at all to do with Goa or India in general. I have a mental block in many
> ways, one is trying to read or understand Portuguese or Konkani. I simply
> cannot let myself read or learn to read or have anything at all to do with
> either of the two languages.
>
> I have revisted Goa and I am afraid of coming back. I have not
> re-visited Portugal after 1958 either.
>
> Some days it was as if my childhood never happened, and no matter how
> hard I tried it was all I could do to remember little bits of it, even
> though they only happened a two or three years earlier, I now know why, it
> is very possible that this person IS my father, for if he was not, then
> there were twins in this family (he had a younger brother I know who lived
> with us, on & off most of the time my father was absent, he was no better
> behaved), my father was violent, rude & uncaring.
>
> Not a nice thing to say about one's father, but what did he expect us to
> think of him, he was never around, and when he was he was not to be
> disturbed, we were not allowed to his side of the house, his room was
> forbidden for anyone to go into, we had better contact (thank heavens for
> little mercies, with the neighbours, though some shunned us children,
> others did not, we were invited to celebrations when he was not around).
>
> He was a prolific debaucher, he fathered so many children (locally, that
> my mother & I knew of), yes I & my brother Fernando (renamed David after
> 1961) must have at least 10 half-siblings via the many "ayas" we had, some
> lasting up to 6 months but many left after a few weeks..
> also with the local womenfolk he & his brother abused.
>
> I remember mentioning this & other things to do with my childhood in my
> first couple of posting on Goanet, my introduction on Goanet. I was so
> pleased to have found a way out of getting this monkey off my back that I
> probably blurted out too much, but what of it I said to my wife, she agreed.
>
> It was history and if its helping me to get this off my chest, what a
> better way than to share it with all Goans on Goanet? I was after all torn
> from Goa, and never really settled properly in UK afterwards, unlike my
> brother who was born in Goan in 1954 (that memory came flooding back to me
> after my mother died in 1999, I was four & half years old at the time, just
> as some other memories are surfacing lately, I feel quite unnerved by it
> all).
>
> If I can get confirmation of this man Agente Casimiro (Teles Jordao
> ???) Monteiro then perhaps it will explain why I used to piss the bed
> nearly every night when I was at Loyola High School and why I was always
> afraid of going home... and why I always found my mothe in a
> distressed state when I did come home. I remember once I ran away from LHS
> just to go see my mum. I wish I hadnt, I continued wetting the bed
> for the rest of the time I was there, even though Brother Canna at the time
> was concerned, told me not to drink water after 4pm and made sure I went to
> the toilet before bedtime, I still managed to find the pee, I was a scared
> child.
>
> But all this aside, it was my mother who was the one that suffered the
> most in our family, she could do no right in his eyes, and the rest of the
> RC extended RC family who lived within walking distance did not like her
> either.
>
> She as Church of England, therefore a Protestant & not of the Old
> Religion, also not married to my Father (he was allegedly already married
> but left them, for my mother), having lived in the UK where they met (in
> the East End of London) it was time for him to be arrested in UK, so fled
> to Goa, where it appears he found alternative
> employment.
>
> But I thank you for your kind words again, and hope & pray that if its
> positive (he is NOT my father), then I have to begin again, to find a
> Casimiro Teles Jordao
Re: [Goanet] Casmiro Monteiro ............ 1950's / LHS
Dear Fred Many thanks for your kind words. Forgive me for such a long email reply but it will help a little perhaps in knowing more about my father, if he is the Casimiro Monteiro we talking about. Yes you are right this ought not to be a witch hunt as such but gaps are gaps, and as you say, they are pre-1961 post 1961 ought to be filled, if not just for my sake, really for posterity, though its 57 years since I first set foot in Goa and now, its some 47 years since I left (fled was more like it if I remember correctly) I was not able to bring forth all the memories that one is meant to. Creeping memory loss it is not, I was not able to remember much of my childhood from my teen years in the mid to late 60's because we were forbidden by mother to speak Portuguese or Konkani or to discuss anything at all to do with Goa or India in general. I have a mental block in many ways, one is trying to read or understand Portuguese or Konkani. I simply cannot let myself read or learn to read or have anything at all to do with either of the two languages. I have revisted Goa and I am afraid of coming back. I have not re-visited Portugal after 1958 either. Some days it was as if my childhood never happened, and no matter how hard I tried it was all I could do to remember little bits of it, even though they only happened a two or three years earlier, I now know why, it is very possible that this person IS my father, for if he was not, then there were twins in this family (he had a younger brother I know who lived with us, on off most of the time my father was absent, he was no better behaved), my father was violent, rude uncaring. Not a nice thing to say about one's father, but what did he expect us to think of him, he was never around, and when he was he was not to be disturbed, we were not allowed to his side of the house, his room was forbidden for anyone to go into, we had better contact (thank heavens for little mercies, with the neighbours, though some shunned us children, others did not, we were invited to celebrations when he was not around). He was a prolific debaucher, he fathered so many children (locally, that my mother I knew of), yes I my brother Fernando (renamed David after 1961) must have at least 10 half-siblings via the many ayas we had, some lasting up to 6 months but many left after a few weeks.. also with the local womenfolk he his brother abused. I remember mentioning this other things to do with my childhood in my first couple of posting on Goanet, my introduction on Goanet. I was so pleased to have found a way out of getting this monkey off my back that I probably blurted out too much, but what of it I said to my wife, she agreed. It was history and if its helping me to get this off my chest, what a better way than to share it with all Goans on Goanet? I was after all torn from Goa, and never really settled properly in UK afterwards, unlike my brother who was born in Goan in 1954 (that memory came flooding back to me after my mother died in 1999, I was four half years old at the time, just as some other memories are surfacing lately, I feel quite unnerved by it all). If I can get confirmation of this man Agente Casimiro (Teles Jordao ???) Monteiro then perhaps it will explain why I used to piss the bed nearly every night when I was at Loyola High School and why I was always afraid of going home... and why I always found my mothe in a distressed state when I did come home. I remember once I ran away from LHS just to go see my mum. I wish I hadnt, I continued wetting the bed for the rest of the time I was there, even though Brother Canna at the time was concerned, told me not to drink water after 4pm and made sure I went to the toilet before bedtime, I still managed to find the pee, I was a scared child. But all this aside, it was my mother who was the one that suffered the most in our family, she could do no right in his eyes, and the rest of the RC extended RC family who lived within walking distance did not like her either. She as Church of England, therefore a Protestant not of the Old Religion, also not married to my Father (he was allegedly already married but left them, for my mother), having lived in the UK where they met (in the East End of London) it was time for him to be arrested in UK, so fled to Goa, where it appears he found alternative employment. But I thank you for your kind words again, and hope pray that if its positive (he is NOT my father), then I have to begin again, to find a Casimiro Teles Jordao Monteiro in Goa, in the 1950's. could there have been two, both with the same name, same time-windows working for the police force albeit sometimes in Khaki or Camouflage ?? Both Portuguese? Perhaps a PHOTO of him would be the next step as
Re: [Goanet] Casmiro Monteiro ............ 1950's / LHS
Dear Roland I cannot thank you enough for this, it is a start for me. I have always known in my heart that the evil of my father was totally like this, he was a very nasty, ferocious unaffectionate man, that was towards his family, my mother, my brother and me. The rest of our neighbours suffered from his visits also, but my mother was too timid (it was the 1950's all women, whether Goan or Portuguese or as in my mother's case, English father French mother, had no rights and no discussions between them, she did as she was told, no arguments). He was a truly evil person my mother refused to talk about him when we returned to England in Dec 1961, after a brief stay at Karachi when we left Goa, I was aged eleven half years, my brother was born there but not registered... () or so my mother told us. We never returned, but my heart has always been in Goa, you cannot change your childhood and the older one gets, the more you miss it. I am an old fella, 58 in June and some memories come flooding back to me, so much so that I am frightened of some of the things that come to my mind, I can now remember when my brother was born in Nov 1954, I was four and half years old nearly but then it all goes blank for 3 years or so, then something flickers about HOCKEY at LHS, or my first communion couple years later, some bits of when we went to Portugal, another instance where my mother had asked both my brother and I to hid on the floor of a taxi she was dressed in a red yellow sari... all very strange. But at least the trauma that may have occured to me (and my brother), can slowly be released month by month, week by week. But I have to be careful as it is making me fragile, due to my father being the really bad man that I remember, I hope of course that Agente Casemiro Monteirol is NOT my father, but I have this strange feeling he is the one. It is too much of a coincidence that his first name surname is the same as my father, and the name Casemiro tied to Monteiro is the first time I have heard together, let alone hearing the name Casemiro in the first place. And his brother was no better.. but I dont remember his name, nor can I remember any Portuguese, we were forbidden to speak Konkani or Portuguese when we left Goa, so it all went to the back of my mind, forgotten... until now. The last 14 months have been an eye-opener for me, but my brother is unwell and I cannot raise any of this with anyone other than my wife Pamela. How ironic that that Casemiro Monteiro, my father should have been such an evil person and a bigot, a racialist a moron, if he only knew my wife, she is from Mauritius, of Tamil (HINDU) descent, and we have two daughters. IF HE ONLY KNEW.!! I cannot think of any better way of paying him back for all the evils he did, to see his eldest son married to a brown skinned woman of a religion that he hated so much. I really cant begin to think how he would react, but a reaction of any kind would be welcome. He is either dead or if living, be around 83 to 85 years old now. Thanks again for the update, I will continue with Google at the week-end and send some emails to Mr Faleiro, Mr Vaz, Mr Tavares Dr D'Souza. It means so much to me to get this far, after 14 months on Goanet and the past 9 years trying it the hard way. WHY did I not consider Google??? How could I have missed this, its so obvious, but not as obvious as I thought!!! Thanks! John Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear John, If you google Casimiro Monteiro Goa, you will get quite a lot of information on CM who it is said was an agent of the dreaded PIDE (Policia International de Defense do Estada), the equivalent of USA's CIA or Israel's Mossad. I personally do not know much about Agente Monteiro besides the fact that he was both reviled and revered in the Goa of the Portuguese years depending on who was affected. I copy some passages in Floriano Vaz's Sunday Ramblings that I found on the internet whose conclusion was that Agente Monteiro dispensed speedy justice. All I know of Agente Monteiro is what I heard of him from people and from a Konkani tiatr of the same name (one of the 2 or 3 tiatrs in my life) staged in Byculla Bombay when I was 15 years old. Your best bet would be Dr. Teotonio D'Souza the Goan historian who often posts on Goanet and has his own Goa Research website. CM figures in one of his research papers (as I see from Google) which are mostly in Portuguese. There are several people on Goanet who may come forward to give you information. Among them will be our Alfred Tavares (there are few people in Goa of those days that he doesn't know) and Valmiki Faleiro whose propensity for researching his various articles is well known. Here is Floriano's Sunday Rambling: It seems that one timber
Re: [Goanet] Casmiro Monteiro ............ 1950's / LHS
Hi John, Don't be so harsh on yourself! We don't choose our parents, and we can't always be responsible for their actions (except those of our children, in a way). Even assuming he's your dad, I think your attitude matters more than his! There are issues involved here though. Understanding Agente Monteiro is important for filling in the gaps as far as Goan history goes. And there are many gaps, not just this one, both pre-1961 and post-1961. It needn't be a witch-hunt, though one could understand the pain of those who suffered brutalities of whatever form. At the same time, those at whose hands the brutalities was doled out were mentally prisoners of those times. I'm sure they believed they were doing their patriotic duty, 'protecting' Goa or whatever. When I visited Dachau in 1998, I wondered how anyone could have done what they did there hardly six decades earlier. But while we do it, we all have justifications for the violence we wreck on others, even in the case of Gujarat in 2002 or in Algeria or Vietnam and Indonesia or Afghanistan, and the many invasions (and toppling-via-military-coups) that even countries the US has undertaken in recent times. There is, sometimes, a self-correcting mechanism at play though. Call it poetic justice, if you want to. The children of many of those who have strong anti-'outsider' sentiments have chosen to marry people from the other states of India, for instance. Just my thoughts ... FN On 28/03/2008, JOHN MONTEIRO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Roland, I cannot thank you enough for this, it is a start for me. I have always known in my heart that the evil of my father was totally like this, he was a very nasty, ferocious unaffectionate man, that was towards his family, my mother, my brother and me. The rest of our neighbours suffered from his visits also, but my mother was too timid (it was the 1950's all women, whether Goan or Portuguese or as in my mother's case, English father French mother, had no rights and no discussions between them, she did as she was told, no arguments)
Re: [Goanet] Casmiro Monteiro ............ 1950's / LHS
Dear Bernado I have always wanted to find my father's side of the family. In fact I have been searching more and more over the past years since my mother passed away in 1999. That's nearly 9 years of searching for him, his brother any relatives in Goa Lisbon. Casemiro Monteiro, whether he was in fact my father, and his brother who was with him (our uncle), we (my mother, my younger brother I) lived together in the same house IN Goa. I was indeed shocked to the core ( I am still bodily shaking) to read the report Roland had posted, for the incident in 1955. As much as I feel my personal life has nothing much to do with the events of today, on Goanet, or in Goa itself, maybe of no interest to anyone outside the Monteiro family, I am pleading with everyone who may have any information regarding the Agente Casemiro Monteiro ( his brother) who were in Goa during the 1950's. You say, CM is dead gone he was irrelevant, well that is probably right, for you possibly many other posters who have read your post, and mine. But a small detraction away from the current Monteiros since 1961 will not make much difference to you or those who are not interested in my plight, but I also need to know about my father, who he was and where he went, whether or not he was that person described in Roland's post. I can only SUSPECT it was him, I cannot be sure of it. So I ask again, if anyone has any light they can shed on this man, I would be very grateful to you. Any archive footage such as Roland's or links to where I can go next to find out more about this man, can only help me (and my family). Even if he is indeed dead gone as you put it, it would help us enormously to lay our ghosts to rest, if it is true, then where is he laid, where are his / my paternal relatives living in Goa / Lisbon? Surely this is not too much to ask, and it will not deter from the main events currently being discussed (some ad nausium, but still being read by yours truly). I thank anyone in advance for any information, no matter how small or insignificant they feel they have some information or knowledge on this. John Monteiro -- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently one Roland Francis from Spadina Avenue, Toronto, Canada has invoked the memory of Agente Monteiro and has left John Monteiro of Berkshire in a quandary as to his parentage. RF should spend more time in my opinion on the current Monteiro's that Goa has produced and is producing since 61. Please do not raise issues of irrelevance. CM is dead and gone. BC __
Re: [Goanet] Casmiro Monteiro ............ 1950's / LHS
Dear John, If you google Casimiro Monteiro Goa, you will get quite a lot of information on CM who it is said was an agent of the dreaded PIDE (Policia International de Defense do Estada), the equivalent of USA's CIA or Israel's Mossad. I personally do not know much about Agente Monteiro besides the fact that he was both reviled and revered in the Goa of the Portuguese years depending on who was affected. I copy some passages in Floriano Vaz's Sunday Ramblings that I found on the internet whose conclusion was that Agente Monteiro dispensed speedy justice. All I know of Agente Monteiro is what I heard of him from people and from a Konkani tiatr of the same name (one of the 2 or 3 tiatrs in my life) staged in Byculla Bombay when I was 15 years old. Your best bet would be Dr. Teotonio D'Souza the Goan historian who often posts on Goanet and has his own Goa Research website. CM figures in one of his research papers (as I see from Google) which are mostly in Portuguese. There are several people on Goanet who may come forward to give you information. Among them will be our Alfred Tavares (there are few people in Goa of those days that he doesn't know) and Valmiki Faleiro whose propensity for researching his various articles is well known. Here is Floriano's Sunday Rambling: It seems that one timber merchant cum timber contractor was operating his very successful timber business in Goa supplying timber to various outlets, timber such as teak wood, which was freely available in forested areas of Valpoi etc. This contractor is believed to have been operating in a dubious manner, where, he would get the forest department's mandatory clearance to cut say 50 teak trees, but would actually cut 100 or more. And this was not without the connivance of the officials of the forest department who were kept happy by this contractor with ample gifts during Ganesh, Divali and Christmas festivals. It is believed that one such upright lower official of the forest department had the courage to send back such a gift from this contractor, not because he wanted a better and a more expensive one, but merely because he disliked to be bribed and taken for granted. Due recognition was registered by the contractor in this particular case which was considered as an insult. Things started to get out of hand gradually as the contractor was denuding the government forests of its teak trees to the extent that an anonymous letter reached the desk of the brand new and very young Director of forests by the name of Maciel Chaves, first out of college from Lisbon, having been deputed to take charge in Goa, ratting on the deeds of the timber contractor who hailed from Marcel-Goa. The director was duly warned that the personnel of his department could not be trusted and could be on the payroll of the contractor. It is believed that young Chaves started making clandestine inspection trips to the scenes of the crime , talking to people etc. This, having alarmed the contractor, he made contact with the Azad Gomantak Dal, which was then making regular incursions into Goa as satyagraha strikes, to have this young Director assassinated. A 'supari', as it is known in ordinary parlance. The unfortunate thing actually happened. The young Director was shot dead during one of AGD's incursions into Goa. I am told that a tearful funeral service of this young Director was conducted at the chapel of the old GMC complex at Campal, which complex is now renovated for the IFFI-04. Perhaps the body was taken to Portugal for burial. With Casimiro Monteiro in charge (Agente Monteiro as he was called), the investigations into this murder was conducted on a war footing, given the efficiency of the Portuguese Police. It seems that the timber contractor from Marcel was duly picked up in the middle of the night and taken in. The intensive interrogation is believed to have lasted for almost a month when the accused died in custody. Same night, it is believed that Casimiro Monteiro and two of his guards carried a bundle, hardly considered as a human body, tied up in a bedsheet, to the contractor's home in the dead of the night. The home people having been woken, were ordered to conduct the funeral rites of the remains there and then without allowing the sheet to be unwrapped . Agente Monteiro is said to have left only when the body was totally consumed by flames. To us, in our make believe democracy, where our shoes get worn-out by making trips to the court rooms, this type of swift and horrifying justice makes our legs weak. But then, one could sleep without fear, keeping the doors and windows of the houses open precisely for this very reason of swift justice during the Portuguese rule. And, by the way, the identity of this criminal contractor, who thought he would be able to pillage Goa's forests by having the thorn in Maciel Chaves removed, the blame of which automatically and satisfactorily dumped on the satyagraha movement, must be known to a few in Goa who are
