Re: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro)
On 4 October 2013 16:04, augusto pinto wrote: > As regards how much credit I give to Goans who have achieved something I > would like to say - I'll praise all Goans who claim they are Goans. If they > aren't then why should we gain credit for what is not ours? > Which brings us to the point, Gusto. * Whom do *you* define as "Goan"? * "Goans who claim they are Goans" -- who decides who qualifies for the first? * Who decides "what is not ours"? * In a migrant oriented society, what is the implications of this logic? * Are we out to disown, declare "enemy property" and grab property? FN Of course, this is an academic exercise for me, because I believe I'm a Goan merely by accident of birth. If my family had links a hundred kilometres due north, maybe I would have been posting on Sawantwadi-Net :-) FN
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro)
Dear Augusto, I sincerely regret you found my mail "venomous", drivel, verbose, etc. No point talking any further. Though I want you to know -- and I will say this here publicly -- that I actually like you for thinking out of the box. I disagree when you foolishly shoot from the hip, without having your facts right, which unfortunately you so often do. Please be at peace and at liberty to think whatever you want ... like what you say about the *Campos* part you yourself first added to the Madhya Pradesh CS's name -- and then said it (the *Campos* part) "apparently disappeared". And things like that, like the Indian Naval officer I quoted. May I assure you, Professore August, that they are gentlemen of a different genre who I personally know. They won't waste a bullet through your head. Take your time in getting to know them, (I can assure you guys like Tino and India's pioneer submariner are the kind of people you are yet to know), BUT don't be an upstart. From my humble side, count on my unreserved support. And shed your skewed mental baggage about Goa and Goans -- whether born or living in Goa or not, or those who tweaked their surnames without committing a sin that the Bible, Gita, Koran, Zend Avesta, or whatever, ordained as sin, outside Goa. Best to you, pyare, v - Original Message - From: augusto pinto To: Valmiki Faleiro Cc: goanet ; Aurora Couto Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro) Dear Valmiki I really enjoyed reading your venomous mail. But before I start answering it, I want you and all concerned to read my original mail a little more carefully: So when Frederick Noronha trumpeted the fact that 'a Goan' had become Chief Secretary of Madhya Pradesh, I wanted to know whether Anthony de Sa or more properly Anthony Campos de Sa himself claimed to be a Goan. For all I knew he could be a Mangalorean or an East Indian. Remember similar claims were made about the Goanness of the actress Freida Pinto for instance when she became famous, although subsequently it was discovered that she was a Mangalorean who lived in Bombay with little connection to Goa. This was why I had asked my questions regarding whether he himself claimed to be a Goan. My second paragraph points to a habit we Goan Catholics have: if anyone has a surname which remotely resembles ours then we want to immediately grab credit for the Goan Catholic community. Should not have Frederick Noronha substantiated his claim that Anthony de Sa (incidentally the Campos in the family surname has apparently disappeared) was a Goan, which would have not necessitated me asking questions. Now coming to your own mail, I find most of it drivel. What is the connection between 'Maria Aurora de Couto' (sic) whose name to the best of my knowledge is Dr Maria Aurora Couto, and the subject of this letter? I don't understand why you dragged her name in and she will get to know about your letter as I'm going to cc it to her. As regards how much credit I give to Goans who have achieved something I would like to say - I'll praise all Goans who claim they are Goans. If they aren't then why should we gain credit for what is not ours? In your verbose reply you state: "Yes, they bent to enter a smaller door, but with their backbones intact!" I presume you mean to say it was OK to claim Anglo status and enter into service with the British. I too have no problem with this. Many of them have taken up foreign citizenship (would you like to challenge this?) on this basis. No problem again. But do we now have the right to claim them as our own? In your final paragraph you quote some mysterious "Navy Officer who ... lives in Goa (and who is) in a position to hold you by you-know-what!" Valmiki I wish your courageous Navy Officer at least has the gumption to say what he has to say publicly and then we shall see. Best Augusto On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Valmiki Faleiro wrote: Dear Prof. Augusto, Please don't blame Frederick Noronha for this. The blame actually credits to my stupid habit of checking email just once a day, and taking each email in the order it came in: first in, first out. In fact, much after I posted my rejoinder to your silly view on expatriate Goans, I did see that you had corrected your stance, but only as regards Anthony de Sa, the new Chief Secretary of MP. Hope you consider Goan a person like Maria Aurora de Couto -- to cite just one example -- who is now in Goa, but most of her life, with her husband, also a highly respected IAS officer, outside Goa. (If the Ma'am gets to reads this, my advance apologies to her!) It appears that your general view on how *Goan* expatriate Goans are, and how much credit we resident Goan
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro)
On 4 October 2013 16:04, augusto pinto wrote: > For all I knew he could be a Mangalorean or an East Indian. Remember > similar claims were made about the Goanness of the actress Freida Pinto for > instance when she became famous, although subsequently it was discovered > that she was a Mangalorean who lived in Bombay with little connection to > Goa. > Arrey, uncle! Mangaloreans are Goans too. Maybe 400 years removed. As for East Indians, I agree. They're only our colonial cousins. FN
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro)
Dear Valmiki I really enjoyed reading your venomous mail. But before I start answering it, I want you and all concerned to read my original mail a little more carefully: "On what account does Anthony Campos De Sa become a Goan apart from the fact that his grandfather was a Goan who may or may not have lived in Goa? Does he claim to be so? Does he indicate any pride in being so? Why should we as Goans leap to grab credit for the achievements of people who may have some Goan ancestry but for all we know have little or no desire to be identified with Goa, which again for all we know may be a dampener to their career prospects." For you to understand this mail, I would like to point out to you that for many generations in the last couple of centuries Goans would try to hide their ancestry in order to get the benefit of being considered an Anglo-Indian and taking the benefit of the reservations due to them. I pointed this out in my subsequent mail but you have conveniently avoided challenging me on this. In British Africa of course this was not required because the possession of a Portuguese passport gave Goans a slightly advantageous position vis-a-vis other Indians. So when Frederick Noronha trumpeted the fact that 'a Goan' had become Chief Secretary of Madhya Pradesh, I wanted to know whether Anthony de Sa or more properly Anthony Campos de Sa himself claimed to be a Goan. For all I knew he could be a Mangalorean or an East Indian. Remember similar claims were made about the Goanness of the actress Freida Pinto for instance when she became famous, although subsequently it was discovered that she was a Mangalorean who lived in Bombay with little connection to Goa. This was why I had asked my questions regarding whether he himself claimed to be a Goan. My second paragraph points to a habit we Goan Catholics have: if anyone has a surname which remotely resembles ours then we want to immediately grab credit for the Goan Catholic community. Should not have Frederick Noronha substantiated his claim that Anthony de Sa (incidentally the Campos in the family surname has apparently disappeared) was a Goan, which would have not necessitated me asking questions. Now coming to your own mail, I find most of it drivel. What is the connection between 'Maria Aurora de Couto' (sic) whose name to the best of my knowledge is Dr Maria Aurora Couto, and the subject of this letter? I don't understand why you dragged her name in and she will get to know about your letter as I'm going to cc it to her. As regards how much credit I give to Goans who have achieved something I would like to say - I'll praise all Goans who claim they are Goans. If they aren't then why should we gain credit for what is not ours? In your verbose reply you state: "Yes, they bent to enter a smaller door, but with their backbones intact!" I presume you mean to say it was OK to claim Anglo status and enter into service with the British. I too have no problem with this. Many of them have taken up foreign citizenship (would you like to challenge this?) on this basis. No problem again. But do we now have the right to claim them as our own? In your final paragraph you quote some mysterious "Navy Officer who ... lives in Goa (and who is) in a position to hold you by you-know-what!" Valmiki I wish your courageous Navy Officer at least has the gumption to say what he has to say publicly and then we shall see. Best Augusto On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Valmiki Faleiro wrote: > Dear Prof. Augusto, > > Please don't blame Frederick Noronha for this. > The blame actually credits to my stupid habit of > checking email just once a day, and taking each > email in the order it came in: first in, first out. > > In fact, much after I posted my rejoinder to your > silly view on expatriate Goans, I did see that you > had corrected your stance, but only as regards > Anthony de Sa, the new Chief Secretary of MP. > Hope you consider Goan a person like Maria > Aurora de Couto -- to cite just one example -- > who is now in Goa, but most of her life, with her > husband, also a highly respected IAS officer, > outside Goa. (If the Ma'am gets to reads this, > my advance apologies to her!) > > It appears that your general view on how *Goan* > expatriate Goans are, and how much credit we > resident Goans can take for their achievements > outside Goa, remains unchanged. > > Sir, please realise you are insulting the memory > of not dozens, or scores, but THOUSANDS of Goans > who on account of circumstances then prevailing in > their homeland, migrated out of Goa, made it big > outside Goa, and India -- and still continue to inspire > lesser mortals like me, a resident Goan. Yes, they > tweaked their surnames to grab economic (not immoral) > opportunity then existing in British India. Yes, they bent > to enter a smaller door, but with their backbones intact! > And see what, with much academic effort and hard work, > they went on to achieve! Professore, v. humbly
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro)
Dear Prof. Augusto,
Please don't blame Frederick Noronha for this.
The blame actually credits to my stupid habit of
checking email just once a day, and taking each
email in the order it came in: first in, first out.
In fact, much after I posted my rejoinder to your
silly view on expatriate Goans, I did see that you
had corrected your stance, but only as regards
Anthony de Sa, the new Chief Secretary of MP.
Hope you consider Goan a person like Maria
Aurora de Couto -- to cite just one example --
who is now in Goa, but most of her life, with her
husband, also a highly respected IAS officer,
outside Goa. (If the Ma'am gets to reads this,
my advance apologies to her!)
It appears that your general view on how *Goan*
expatriate Goans are, and how much credit we
resident Goans can take for their achievements
outside Goa, remains unchanged.
Sir, please realise you are insulting the memory
of not dozens, or scores, but THOUSANDS of Goans
who on account of circumstances then prevailing in
their homeland, migrated out of Goa, made it big
outside Goa, and India -- and still continue to inspire
lesser mortals like me, a resident Goan. Yes, they
tweaked their surnames to grab economic (not immoral)
opportunity then existing in British India. Yes, they bent
to enter a smaller door, but with their backbones intact!
And see what, with much academic effort and hard work,
they went on to achieve! Professore, v. humbly, I ask you
to please re-read any book by late Dr. Olivinho Gomes
(also central civil services Offr, IRS), late Dr. Clement Vaz,
or my own humble *Patriotism in Action* which dwell on
Goans -- all who do not fit into your definition of a *Goan*.
(Incidentally, my book was on Goans -- both Hindu and Catholic --
in the armed forces of India. I am surprised you expected me
to discuss their "upwardly social mobility". Tell you what. Take
a Kalashnikov and make yourself
UPWARDLY SOCIALLY MOBILE in Moira.)
And just BTW, to clear your ignorance, when Goans went
out of Goa -- say to Belgaum, Dharwar, Bangalore, Poona,
Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Rangoon, Delhi or Karachi --
there was NO CHANGE of citizenship status. Goans only
carried an identification (a much sought after doc today!)
I don't know how the idea of insult or insulting came into your
head after reading my email. Read it again and tell me what
insults your sensibilities. If you still feel insulted, I can't help, but
if you wish to settle imagined scores ("I don't forget insults like
this easily.") with me, say it loud and clear. I am more than willing
to debate ... and preferably on a larger public forum, so that you
finally earn your "just" deserts -- including from Saudi Arabia, if you
prefer (and, hopefully, dispel your long-held skewed views on ...
your Goanity.)
What you say about the *400-odd Commissioned Offrs listed in
the book -- including my father*, may I just say you will never fail to
surprise, and quickly close by quoting what one of those "400-odd"
told me in a private email (and may I forecaution you that the author
was a pioneer Indian Navy guy -- and a Goan ... lest you shoot off
without your facts and later apologise (as in the case of Mr. Anthony
de Sa). Anthony lives in distant Madhya Pradesh, this Navy Officer who
I quote below lives in Goa, in a position to hold you by you-know-what!
So digest with care:
QUOTE: Please inform this idiot that we had to study hard and prepare for
the open competitive Civil Services or NDA entrance exams before joining the
IAS or Armed Forces as officers. The selection process was by no means easy.
Nothing to do with Anglo-Indians whatsoever. The guy should at least do his
homework before spewing out nonsense on goanet" UNQUOTE.
I think you should take the advice, Augusto dearest. Best, v
- Original Message -
From: augusto pinto
To: goanet
Cc: Frederick FN Noronha ; Valmiki Faleiro
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere
geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro)
Dear Valmiki
I think if you look at Message 10 of Goanet Digest, Vol 8, Issue 700 you will realize that I had apologized for presuming that Tino
was not a Goan but my apology was not put on the Digest mode thanks to possibly to a malicious Goanet moderator who I will take the
liberty of naming: Frederick Noronha.
Because my post was delayed being posted to the Digest mode, it appears that mud is all over my face. Be that as it may. I will get
my just deserts in due time. I don't forget insults like this easily.
As for your second point that "None of the 400-odd Commissioned Offrs
listed in the book -- including my father -- would fit into Augusto's idea
of a Goan!" I don't think you quite understand my point.
A very great number of Goan Catholics in pre-Independence times decided to change their status from Portuguese citizen of Goa to
Anglo-Indian citizen of British India.
Thus Barretto became Barrett; De Sa became D'Sa; F
Re: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) (Valmiki Faleiro)
Dear Valmiki I think if you look at Message 10 of Goanet Digest, Vol 8, Issue 700 you will realize that I had apologized for presuming that Tino was not a Goan but my apology was not put on the Digest mode thanks to possibly to a malicious Goanet moderator who I will take the liberty of naming: Frederick Noronha. Because my post was delayed being posted to the Digest mode, it appears that mud is all over my face. Be that as it may. I will get my just deserts in due time. I don't forget insults like this easily. As for your second point that "None of the 400-odd Commissioned Offrs listed in the book -- including my father -- would fit into Augusto's idea of a Goan!" I don't think you quite understand my point. A very great number of Goan Catholics in pre-Independence times decided to change their status from Portuguese citizen of Goa to Anglo-Indian citizen of British India. Thus Barretto became Barrett; De Sa became D'Sa; Fernandes became Ferns; De Souza became D'Souza or even Delaney and so on and so forth. In this way they were able to claim Anglo-Indian status and further got an opportunity to get into the IAS and British Indian Army and so forth. I don't think your book Patriotism in Action: Goans in India's Defence Services*, Valmiki, sufficiently dwells upon the aspect of the how Goans managed to become upwardly socially mobile (which incidentally, I am not against per se; although what I am against is the humbug of Goans who have availed of such routes to upper-class-hood, today trying to deny their little chicaneries in a holier than thou manner). BTW Valmiki when are you going to come out with that magnum opus on Goan proverbs and idioms? If you need any help from me - let me say that I'd jump on the bandwagon faster than a bass guitarist let alone a drummer and forget a ghumottkar.. Regards Augusto -- `Message: 3 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 12:03:36 +0530 From: Valmiki Faleiro To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Our friend, Prof. Augusto Pinto, received an eminently merited rap for -- as he is apt to -- shooting his gun before getting his facts right. A person of Goan origin is a *khaas Goemkar* if he cares for his native soil. Augusto obviously forgets the reasons why Goans by the drove chose to out-migrate, particularly from the 19th Century. On a personal note, however, I am grateful to Augusto that he did not raise this issue when reviewing my book, *Patriotism in Action: Goans in India's Defence Services*. None of the 400-odd Commissioned Offrs listed in the book -- including my father -- would fit into Augusto's idea of a Goan! Goans in Goa could not join the British Indian armed forces until 1947 and India's forces until 1961. I particularly liked the part in Tino's reply retained below. Well said! Best, v -- Original message -- > From: Goanet Reader > Date: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 4:25 AM > Subject: [Goanet] Goanet Reader: Being Goan is a state of mind, more than > a mere geographical accident (Tino de Sa) > To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" > > > Being Goan is a state of mind, more than a mere geographical accident > > Tino de Sa > > When Goanet carried a report saying "Goan becomes > Chief Secretary of Madhya Pradesh", there was a > counter-view questioning the use of the label > "Goan" for an expat Goan. The poster said: "Why > should we as Goans leap to grab credit for the > achievements of people who may have some Goan > ancestry but for all we know have little or no > desire to be identified with Goa, which again for > all we know may be a dampener to their career > prospects." See http://bit.ly/GoanityDebate > Here, Anthony (Tino) de Sa responds, to a debate > that is relevant to Goa's large expat community. > > > > But I think it is as presumptuous to assume that just because > a person is born and brought up outside of Goa, there would > be a lack of pride in his or her roots, as it is erroneous to > assume that every person born and brought up in Goa is > passionate about it. Being Goan is a state of mind more than > a mere geographical accident. > > ### > > Augusto Pinto 40, Novo Portugal Moira, Bardez Goa, India E pinto...@gmail.com P 0832-2470336 M 9881126350
