Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Two new showrooms/office spaces, double height (135 sq m each with bath) for lease in upscale Campal/Miramar beach area, Panaji, Goa. Contact: goaengineer...@aol.com "My dear Paulo, Thank you for your post on Goanet Digest, Vol 4, Issue 928 I have not read the book and I do not want to read a material prepared for sale to those who are anti Portuguese and those who are dreaming that 19 December 1961 was a liberation and not invasion. We may need to give some lessons to those who are under that false impression! Mr. Fredrick Noronha has his own views and I respect that those are his views! He questions a lot and even questioned me once when I took on the management of Spice Jet for projecting a wrong image of a Goan women. I was later informed that he does some work for Spice jet! It appears to me that Fredrick was raised in Mumbai and therefore he may not have had any first hand impression and therefore he has to rely on books written by someone else. We cannot hold this against him. He is a Gentlemen and a Scholar and a Gentlemen and perhaps his and Teotonio's family may have been freedom fighters in Goa. Best Oscar
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 19:20:26 -0400 From: "J. Colaco < jc>" Now don't play Clinton with me. He was playing with Monica. Apart from that, he IS my favourite US President. Mario adds: If Clinton is your favorite US President, which would fit under the "Birds of a feather..." rule, it seems you would WANT Selma to play "Clinton" with you all day long:-))
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Dear Floriano >From what I heard from my grandparents and on reading your note on Portuguese >administration, I am convinced , clear and have a true feeling that law and >order/administration then was very fair, clean , impartial and above all >FAST(not like todays 20-25 years long legal battles in Goa courts-never >ending dates and never say die advocates/judges mentality). Todays Goas >administration from its effects on goans can be termed as 'swine flu' and >there is an urgent need for the 'vaccination' in the form of Goan peoples >voices as this administration is killing goans peace, freedom, rights for too >long now. Actually we do not mind these donkeys to rule us and never mind if they do not carry our food, clothing, shelther things and reach them from the market place to our door steps. We will do it ourselves since these donkeys do not know what SERVICE means. However, these 40 donkeys are quite clever that they do carry our stuff, they carry our GOAN LAND, FIELDS, HILLS and take it all the way to DELHI , RUSSIA, and other places. Floriano, I have seen Ministers , their vast properties, no. of cars, and their wealth, but I will anytime prefer to be governed by sincere people like you(well people do change after getting power, but you are not an ordinary person who is waiting for power, you are already filled with power which is not for sale) OR party(name it GSRP) and I would love the ordinary bread(kakon) and the Goan tea in a coconut shell to start the day . This I still remember enjoying alongwith my Titi(Uncle) on the calangute beach after they finished offloading the fishing nets from the boats on the beach and the energetic and strong women folks taking their 'fish pandlios' to market. I am talking about 1975. Please , please bring back the portuguese administration minus the portuguese and please bring back the days of 1975 or earlier minus the ugly princess, I hate the sight of this and wonder how ugly and sick the owners mind and heart is , who disowned it after making use of it and making money. And worst still there are probably still many people who have and still keeping quite as they probably get gifts, cars, properties and does not even go to the beach for a walk , not do they care for the environment , nor do they care for the fisher folks future in terms of fishing, or for the people of calangute & candolim who love the beach. Best Wishes to you and GSRP. Regards Mario Andrew Rodrigues > From: "floriano" > To: , "Goa's premiere mailing list,estb. > 1994!" > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese > Message-ID: <88668c3521684a29b13fc61b9a9a3...@home> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; > reply-type=original > > Which Goans lived in misery during the Portuguese era? > Were they the elite Goans? > Where they the down to earth, scratching for a living, Goans? > Yes, we had Morris Minors, WW Beetles, Willys Jeeps, Austin Cambriges, St . > Pauli Girl Beer, Madeira, Moscatel, Granjo so on and so forth. > But who could afford it? > > According to me, Goa saw a diciplined administration in all respects. I > salute the Portuguese for that. And I hate my own country's administration > from my very guts. This is only possible because I have experienced both and > I am free to choose which one I like. It does not matter that the Portuguese > looted Goa. Our Delhi High Commands are doing worse with the local chamchas > helping them to help themselves. > > I might have not had more things on my dinner plate than others, then, > during the Portuguese era. But I certainly had the satisfaction of being > governed fairly, cleanly and impartially. > > We have sent away the horses. They had to be sent away, no doubt about it. > But we opened our doors wide for our own donkeys to walk in and make our > lives miserable. And we cannot even blame any one for it but ourselves. > > That is why Goa Su-Raj is born. To bring back the Portuguese administration > into Goa back again, minus the Portuguese. > And perhaps, if India needs someone other than the Nehru's and Gandhi's > Kangress which has made our lives miserable, then maybe Goa Su-Raj will > qualify to lead India as India Su-Raj. > > Cheers > > floriano > goasuraj > 9890470896 > www.goasu-raj.org > _ More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
The subject line is sure to catch our attention. -Original Message- From: sallesfons...@. > The main purpose of Fr. Theotónio is to blame Portugal and nothing > else! However, he lives in Portugal and is paid by a portuguese > University. RESPONSE: The first edition of this book was published in 1979 when Teotonio lived in Goa. That edition was sold out and a copy was hard to come by. I hope more Goans read about our history not just from Teotonio but also people like Joaquim Heliodoro da Cunha Rivara [1], Shirodkar and more > Of course he is not a recognisable historian because of his partiality. RESPONSE: There was a vibrant debate on Goanet some weeks ago about the alleged bias of Priolkar vis-a-vis the Inquisition. I guess somebody or the other will always see bias in a historian's writing. Nevertheless, we should read all views and perspectives - pro and contra and make up our own mind. Historians usually have data to backup their assertions. But read we must for a better understanding of our history whether it is palatable or not. - B [1] Goa and the Revolt of 1787 Joaquim Heliodoro da Cunha Rivara (Edited by Charles J. Borges, 1996)
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
2009/9/1 Carvalho : [1] Oh JC, tut tut, we're not going to play the old Clintonian trick of "it all depends on what the definition of is is". [2] Oh by the way, keep raking the dirt on me, keep digging, that is your usual style, when you're losing an argument isn't it? Two quick points: a: Either substantiate the charges you have made albeit by way of misrepresentations or withdraw them b: Dirt can only be dug up - IF it exists Just as a reminder: Please confirm or deny (and if confirmed ...substantiate) that you made the following statements uno: That a whole generation of Goan Hindus has been raised to HATE Goan Catholics dos: That jc wrote about "Jobs in Swindon" tres: That jc stated that Teotonio's book IS biased. Now don't play Clinton with me. He was playing with Monica. Apart from that, he IS my favourite US President. finis jc
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, J. Colaco < jc> wrote: Perhaps, Selma will now advise us WHERE it is jc has stated > that > Teotonio's book 'IS' biased. > -- Oh JC, tut tut, we're not going to play the old Clintonian trick of "it all depends on what the definition of is is". Oh by the way, keep raking the dirt on me, keep digging, that is your usual style, when you're losing an argument isn't it? Ola, tudo bem? best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Teotoniobab is a highly qualified, recognized and accomplished Goan historian. I hope people would offer substantive criticisms and refutations of his work rather than smear him like spoiled children. Cheers, Santosh --- On Tue, 9/1/09, sallesfons...@sapo.pt wrote: > > The main purpose of Fr. Theotónio is to blame Portugal and > nothing else! However, he lives in Portugal and is paid by a > portuguese University. > Of course he is not a recognisable historian because of his > partiality. > Henrique Salles da Fonseca > Lisboa - PORTUGAL > >
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
2009/9/1 Carvalho : [1] After confessing that he has not read the book, he goes on to tell us it is biased. [2] How did JC decide something is biased without having read it. Interalia, intra-violet and infra-red? Now that we have 'solved' a number of misrepresentations by Selma e,g. A whole generation of Goan Hindus trained to hate Goan Catholics + the topic was "jobs in Swindon", we are asked to consider another one where Selma states the following "he goes on to tell us it 'IS' biased". Perhaps, Selma will now advise us WHERE it is jc has stated that Teotonio's book 'IS' biased. This appears to be an exquisite/inquisite/requisite case of serial misrepresentation. Keep it up. BTW: Earlier this morning (here), Selma asked the following question: " Quero um fusco? " Brilliant ...would you guys not say so? jc
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Message-ID: <493963b50909010548w556c1d57tf178dc73e3c91...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The main purpose of Fr. Theotónio is to blame Portugal and nothing else! However, he lives in Portugal and is paid by a portuguese University. Of course he is not a recognisable historian because of his partiality. Henrique Salles da Fonseca Lisboa - PORTUGAL
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Which Goans lived in misery during the Portuguese era? Were they the elite Goans? Where they the down to earth, scratching for a living, Goans? Yes, we had Morris Minors, WW Beetles, Willys Jeeps, Austin Cambriges, St . Pauli Girl Beer, Madeira, Moscatel, Granjo so on and so forth. But who could afford it? According to me, Goa saw a diciplined administration in all respects. I salute the Portuguese for that. And I hate my own country's administration from my very guts. This is only possible because I have experienced both and I am free to choose which one I like. It does not matter that the Portuguese looted Goa. Our Delhi High Commands are doing worse with the local chamchas helping them to help themselves. I might have not had more things on my dinner plate than others, then, during the Portuguese era. But I certainly had the satisfaction of being governed fairly, cleanly and impartially. We have sent away the horses. They had to be sent away, no doubt about it. But we opened our doors wide for our own donkeys to walk in and make our lives miserable. And we cannot even blame any one for it but ourselves. That is why Goa Su-Raj is born. To bring back the Portuguese administration into Goa back again, minus the Portuguese. And perhaps, if India needs someone other than the Nehru's and Gandhi's Kangress which has made our lives miserable, then maybe Goa Su-Raj will qualify to lead India as India Su-Raj. Cheers floriano goasuraj 9890470896 www.goasu-raj.org - Original Message - From: "Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या " To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese Oscar, you seem to be referring to the 19th or 20th century. The book in question relates to 17th century Goa. Have you, by any chance, an idea of the points it is making? Or are you going by commonly-held perceptions which might not be grounded in reality? FN
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, J. Colaco < jc> wrote: > From: J. Colaco < jc> > > a: How does it describe misery? RESPONSE: Again, I don't want to address JC's infallible logic but I am left with no option. After confessing that he has not read the book, he goes on to tell us it is biased. How did JC decide something is biased without having read it. Interalia, intra-violet and infra-red? Now, to his questions: > b: Is the "misery" based on the author's 2009 understanding > of "misery"? RESPONSE: Misery is not such a subjective concept as JC makes it out to be. It's simple; a condition not condusive to living. > c: What exactly could and should the Portuguese (now, > academically)have done to reasonably, remove the "misery"? RESPONSE: The Portuguese can do nothing about it now, it's what they should have done about it that the author is focusing on. This question can be addressed to all historians writing about World War II for instance. Can they prevent Hitler? No, but perhaps they can prevent another Hitler from rising. > > d: Were the Goans living in the same "misery" as their > neighbours in > Savantwadi and Karwar? or were the worse off than those > folks? RESPONSE: Maybe JC can take up a project that deals with Savantwadi and Karwar. To the best of my knowledge Doctor Teotonio specialises in medieval Goa history. Perhaps JC doesn't know this, but each historian will chose a time period to specialise in. This question is like asking JC if he can remove people's teeth? > e: Were Goans better off in the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th > century than > in the 17th century? RESPONSE: Interalia, infra-red, see above answer. > f: Why did the author pick the 17th century for review? RESPONSE: Infra-violet, infra-joao, see above answer. > g: Why is it important that any Goan should read (let > alone, buy) this book? RESPONSE: Because there are people genuinely interested in history. If you are not, don't buy the book. > h: Is this book meant for Goan readers (who might know > Teotonio and > justifiably question it) or as a book to be 'financially > considered' > at some Portuguese University? RESPONSE: I suspect the book will have an universal appeal. > > PS: I would have bought the book, read it and made up my > own mind on > the above. However, buying a book - will only encourage the > author to > publish more books which have the potential of being > unreasonable and > biased. > RESPOSNE: Not reading a book is a wonderful way of deciding it is biased. I can also say Germans know nothing about cars and engineering having never driven a Mercedes and that the Japanese are superb mechanical engineers because all I drive is a Toyota. > IF the book does not address the issue of "misery" in > comparative > terms, I am not interested. IF however, it does a > reasonable > comparative analysis based on credible references - I would > encourage > it as 'necessary reading'. RESPONSE: Thank you for encouraging us to read it, fortunately most of us truly interested did not require your endorsement. We have all already placed our orders for it. Thanks for the thought though, after you have trashed it which by the way is very easy to do. All it takes is few emails in the cyberworld. best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote: Oscar, you seem to be referring to the 19th or 20th century. The book in question relates to 17th century Goa. Have you, by any chance, an idea of the points it is making? My dear Oscar Lobo, Allow me to preface my comment/questions with the following: Preface: 1: I have not read the book; Have you? 2: I do not intend to read the book - unless it is a comparative analysis of the time; Do you? 3: I am not yet convinced that the book is likely to have any relevance to Goans circa 2009; Are you? 4: I was not in Goa in the 17th century; Were you? 5: I personally do not believe that Teotonio de Souza is an unbiased historian. Comment/questions - addressed to those who have read the book: How does this book address the issue of "Misery" wrt the following points: a: How does it describe misery? b: Is the "misery" based on the author's 2009 understanding of "misery"? c: What exactly could and should the Portuguese (now, academically) have done to reasonably, remove the "misery"? d: Were the Goans living in the same "misery" as their neighbours in Savantwadi and Karwar? or were the worse off than those folks? e: Were Goans better off in the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th century than in the 17th century? f: Why did the author pick the 17th century for review? g: Why is it important that any Goan should read (let alone, buy) this book? h: Is this book meant for Goan readers (who might know Teotonio and justifiably question it) or as a book to be 'financially considered' at some Portuguese University? PS: I would have bought the book, read it and made up my own mind on the above. However, buying a book - will only encourage the author to publish more books which have the potential of being unreasonable and biased. IF the book does not address the issue of "misery" in comparative terms, I am not interested. IF however, it does a reasonable comparative analysis based on credible references - I would encourage it as 'necessary reading'. So while those among us criticise Teotonio's book without reading it, and individuals like FN ask the reasonable question: Have you read it? Conclusion: Someone who has read it, please advise. Sincerely jc
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Oscar, you seem to be referring to the 19th or 20th century. The book in question relates to 17th century Goa. Have you, by any chance, an idea of the points it is making? Or are you going by commonly-held perceptions which might not be grounded in reality? FN 2009/9/1 Oscar Lobo : > Re: Goans lived in misery under Portuguese. > It is interesting to see comments made about Goans living in misery > during Portuguese rule. I must say these are "shamai stories" heard by Goans > who were not in Goa. Some Goans of Bombay who left Goa would also say the > same as they did not want to learn Portuguese language to get a job in > government and other offices in Goa. > I was raised up in Goa and educated in St. Britto's High School. > The Goans had indeed plenty to eat, drink and share with the neighbours. > What are we talking about like some Ladro, Pedro and Ladrao? > It surprises me that people who do not have a clue just depend on books that > are written to attract readership and keep commenting about Goa. > If not for Portuguese what would our names be today? And why are some > Portuguese words still incorporated in Konkani? -- FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490 Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/ Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Dear Bosco, Kindly post the following on your next Goanet Digest. Re: Goans lived in misery under Portuguese. It is interesting to see comments made about Goans living in misery during Portuguese rule. I must say these are "shamai stories" heard by Goans who were not in Goa. Some Goans of Bombay who left Goa would also say the same as they did not want to learn Portuguese language to get a job in government and other offices in Goa. I was raised up in Goa and educated in St. Britto's High School. The Goans had indeed plenty to eat, drink and share with the neighbours. What are we talking about like some Ladro, Pedro and Ladrao? It surprises me that people who do not have a clue just depend on books that are written to attract readership and keep commenting about Goa. If not for Portuguese what would our names be today? And why are some Portuguese words still incorporated in Konkani? Oscar C. Lobo Melbourne. From: Mario Goveia Mario observes: Gabriel, Teotonio was reporting on an interview with Ramnath Raikar about a book he wrote on Goa. Getting back to your post, Goans certainly had plenty to eat and drink and places to sleep under their colonial masters - they would be useless to a colonial power if they did not have these survival needs. Slaves, too, had food to eat and places to sleep.? I doubt they were very happy though. Doesn't happiness ultimately come from the inalienable Right to Liberty??
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
From: Jose Agnelo do Rosario Pinto Goans lived in misery under Portuguese: Teotonio Written by RAMNATH N PAI RAIKAR Friday, 21 August 2009 01:16 ?NAVHIND TIMES Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 07:22:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel de Figueiredo I wonder what exactly "misery" in this context means. People can be poor yet be happy, rich yet miserable (Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley and Howard Hughes come to mind wrt the latter). Did the people not have food to eat? A place to sleep? How does one define this "misery"? Can someone clarify as I have not yet read Teotonio's book? Mario observes: Gabriel, Teotonio was reporting on an interview with Ramnath Raikar about a book he wrote on Goa. Getting back to your post, Goans certainly had plenty to eat and drink and places to sleep under their colonial masters - they would be useless to a colonial power if they did not have these survival needs. Slaves, too, had food to eat and places to sleep. I doubt they were very happy though. Doesn't happiness ultimately come from the inalienable Right to Liberty? The text of the second section of the United States Declaration of Independence reads, "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." "Give me liberty, or give me death!" - American Patriot, Patrick Henry.
Re: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
I wonder what exactly "misery" in this context means. People can be poor yet be happy, rich yet miserable (Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley and Howard Hughes come to mind wrt the latter). Did the people not have food to eat? A place to sleep? How does one define this "misery"? Can someone clarify as I have not yet read Teotonio's book? - Original Message From: Jose Agnelo do Rosario Pinto To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" ; Goanet Sent: Sunday, 23 August, 2009 6:31:06 AM Subject: [Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese Goans lived in misery under Portuguese: Teotonio Written by RAMNATH N PAI RAIKAR Friday, 21 August 2009 01:16 NAVHIND TIMES __ Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local. Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
[Goanet] Goans lived in misery under Portuguese
Goans lived in misery under Portuguese: Teotonio Written by RAMNATH N PAI RAIKAR Friday, 21 August 2009 01:16 NAVHIND TIMES Well-known Goan historian and head of the department of history, at Universidade Lusofona, Lisbon, TEOTONIO R DE SOUZA speaks in an exclusive interview with RAMNATH N PAI RAIKAR about the second edition of his book ‘Medieval Goa: A Socio-Economic History’, which will be released in the city on August 21. What made you write ‘Medieval Goa’ three decades ago? The story, as historians would say, begins during my childhood. I got to hear lot of village stories from my grandfather, who though illiterate was a man of village and popularly known as ‘Lamb Jaco’ (Tall Jaco), as well as my grandmother. My grandfather, who hailed from the village of Moira would be immaculately dressed in a suit when he visited Mapusa town, but always wore a loin cloth once he returned to his village. He would even abundantly use his vocabulary of bad words in Portuguese language to denounce the colonial rule. He, like many others in the village nursed anti-colonial feeling. All these things stayed with me. Many years later, to be precise, during early 1970s, I completed my MA in philosophy in Pune and then returned to Goa. When back, I had lot of time at my disposal to carry out research on Goa as it existed during the 17th century, in the state archives. At that time, the Jesuits in Goa wanted me to do doctorate in philosophy at Rome, which I refused. Unfortunately, I could not receive guidance from the noted Goan historian, Dr Pandurang Pissurlekar as he had already passed away and had to complete my doctorate on my own. The topic of my thesis was ‘Goa in the 17th Century: A Socio-Economic History’. Sadly, there was lot of controversy when it came out in 1979 in the form of a book, ‘Medieval Goa: A Socio-Economic History’. People like Carmo Azavedo said that 17th century was not a medieval period as Europe considered it as an early modern period. However, I am still of the opinion that mode of production in a region or a country at a particular time, decides the period of that region or country. I follow the principal of D D Kosambi that Indian history should not be treated as an episode of colonial history. For me, Goa and India have their own history, independent of Portuguese or British regimes. How is the second edition of this book different from the first one? Have you made certain changes including additions to the second edition, now that more than thirty years have passed since the first edition came out and lot of water passed under the Mandovi Bridge as well as Ponte de 25 Abril? The second edition of the book has certain improvements in it. I have taken into account the outcome of the general historical research – not necessarily linked to Goa - that came up during past 30 years. This historical research has been critically reviewed in the bibliographical essay as well as final bibliography included in the second edition of the book. However, there was no need to change the basic argument in the first edition, though some details were added. The first edition of the book stands well as it is, even after three decades of its publication. Then there is some new information in the footnotes and as I have mentioned, in the bibliographical essay as well as final bibliography, for the benefit of the readers. What was the main reason behind selecting 17th century as a period to put Goa under the scanner? You see, 16th century spoke about the glorious achievements of Portuguese as ‘Heroes of the Sea’ while 17th century saw the decline of the Portuguese empire. I also believed that to take stock of Goa as a colony of Portugal, a century long existence of Portuguese in this region was sufficient. The period was just apt; they were no more the masters of the sea, their trade and commerce was no more profitable, and they were gradually moving to religious orders, with their interest in land growing. The Portuguese rulers, in fact went after the temple lands, as these were the best lands available in Goa. And how was the social life in Goa during the 17th century? As I have mentioned, religion started becoming one of the main aspects of social life during 17th century and the process got completed by the middle of the 17th century. The period saw struggle between white traders and white religious leaders, both of whom managed to reach the villages of Goa. This particular aspect was always neglected by the historians. Fortunately, I managed to study the village council proceedings, which informed me about this aspect. The new cult in Baroque style of religion saw competitions between villages to construct bigger churches, which naturally brought about bankruptcy of the village economy. I have taken Moira village as such classical case in my book. The Hindus were sidelined in this process and their presence was almost nothing. Thus the conservative Hindu families moved out to neighbouring areas, taking the
