Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Mario Goveia]

 Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
 of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
 http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
 references, some photographs and documents)





--- On Thu, 4/2/09, Mario Goveia  wrote:
> 
> Now, if Beauregard could find similar results from testing
> Santosh and Kevin and Sandeep and Samir, even Selma, he may
> have a valid point:-))
> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 00:31:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Santosh Helekar 

Based on current evidence, chances are pretty good that if the right areas of 
our brain are electrically stimulated we would also have mystical experiences. 
The reality we experience is a construct of our brain. 

Mario wonders:

Santosh,

Arre, yaar, now you have really gone and done it!

If you and cloistered Carmelite nuns can have the same kinds of mystical 
experiences when your brains are stimulated then Dr. Beauregard and Fr. Ivo are 
going to endlessly claim that you may have been a Carmelite nun in your 
previous incarnation and are moving backwards on the path to Rama:-))

The last time my brain was externally stimulated the mystical experience I had 
would probably lead me, too, towards hell:-))

Santosh wrote:

That is why independent physical tests are needed to ascertain the presence of 
an objective reality apart from us.

Mario responds:

I know what you mean.  The objective reality I experienced after my brain was 
stimulated was quite physically stimulating as well:-))

Unfortunately, my mystical and physical experiences would be of no use to 
either Beauregard or Fr. Ivo:-))

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Santosh Helekar]

 Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
 of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
 http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
 references, some photographs and documents)





--- On Thu, 4/2/09, Mario Goveia  wrote:
> 
> Now, if Beauregard could find similar results from testing
> Santosh and Kevin and Sandeep and Samir, even Selma, he may
> have a valid point:-))
> 

Based on current evidence, chances are pretty good that if the right areas of 
our brain are electrically stimulated we would also have mystical experiences. 
The reality we experience is a construct of our brain. That is why independent 
physical tests are needed to ascertain the presence of an objective reality 
apart from us. I just taught some very smart high school students (National 
Science Honor Society inductees) that as a guest speaker a few days ago.

Cheers,

Santosh


  

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Mario Goveia]

 Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
 of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
 http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
 references, some photographs and documents)





Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:53:36 +0530
From: "Fr. Ivo C. de Souza" 

Mario, we cannot answer the problem of God and satisfy the mystery of God 
with jokes.

Mario observes:

Isn't "problem of God" a contradiction in terms?  "Mystery"?  Yes.  But I was 
not aware that there was any problem with God:-))  

Padre Ivo wrote:

You should know by now that Science cannot answer these questions with 
proofs,

Mario responds:

By jove!  I think he's got it!

Padre Ivo wrote:

but we have the answer from another source: The Word of God himself. 

Mario observes:

Maybe not!

Padre Ivo wrote:

If you do not accept it, I cannot force it upon anyone...

Mario responds:

I think this what we call "faith".

Padre Ivo wrote:

It is good to discuss, if we understand the common language. In the field of 
neuroscience I have leaned upon the experiments of Dr.Mario Beauregard and his 
scientific conclusions, as found in the book, The Spiritual brain,
and the abstracts of his book. His conclusion is that the mystical 
experiences (of "communion with God") of the Carmelite nuns are unique.
As he himself puts it, "These results suggest that mystical experiences
are mediated by several brain regions and systems". 

Mario responds:

Isn't his conclusion based on Carmelite nuns who have more than their fair
share of "faith" and thus can be counted on to have brains and systems
that experience such mystical experiences, because that's all they live for
and focus on during every waking moment?

Now, if Beauregard could find similar results from testing Santosh and Kevin 
and Sandeep and Samir, even Selma, he may have a valid point:-))

Padre Ivo wrote:

Language is important, problem of dialogue arises with the linguistic
problems...

Mario responds:

Yes, as the only voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace, I constantly harp 
on the fact that language is VERY important.  Words mean things and one can't 
lambada with the language to make it fit a pre-conceived conclusion as we saw 
from the numerous examples listed in:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-March/175446.html

Bueregard can amuse himself as much as he likes, and you can choose to believe 
whatever you like, but here is the conclusion in simple English that everyone 
on Goanet should be able to understand:

The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by science.

Now, please ask Beauregard to leave the Carmelite nuns to their meditation and 
find out why there are so many eminent scientists who are having mystical 
experiences on polar opposite sides of the climate change issue before the 
politicians create even more havoc with the world's tottering economies based 
on one side of the debate:-))

[Goanet] God and science

[Joao Barros-Pereira]

 Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
 of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
 http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
 references, some photographs and documents)




Saturday April 4, 2009

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*God and science*
*Sat Apr 4 04:03:41 PDT 2009*



From: "Santosh Helekar" < chimbelcho at
yahoo.com
 >>* --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Fr. Ivo C. de Souza < icsouza at
bsnl.in >
wrote:* >>* *>>* It cannot explain what went on billionths of a second
before the Big bang.

*>>* *>* *>* The above statement is pure nonsense. According to the Big Bang
theory *>* there was no time before the Big Bang.

This is absolutely wrong. Big Bang cannot start of itself. God is the
Creator.
Joao observes: This discussion is as old as the Earth, and maybe older! Not
much has changed 

Who created God ...? If no one has created God then no one has created the
Universe. If God does not need a Creator neither does the Universe! This
argument, too, is old, old  Cheers, Joao

If Large Hadron Collider (LHC) could create a new Universe with new time
(not in our life-time or never), I shall accept that Big Bang began without
God... God created time when he created the primitive nucleus, he created
the Universe with time.

Regards.

Fr.Ivo

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Fr. Ivo C. de Souza]

Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
references, some photographs and documents)





From: "Santosh Helekar" 
I hope most people are not misled by this contamination of science with 
someone's own religion.


--- On Sat, 4/4/09, Fr. Ivo C. de Souza  wrote:


***This is absolutely wrong. Big Bang cannot start of
itself. God is the Creator. If Large Hadron Collider (LHC)
could create a new Universe with new time (not in our
life-time or never), I shall accept that Big Bang began
without God... God created time when he created the
primitive nucleus, he created the Universe with time.
***As usual, Dr.Santosh is not answering the problems, but merely repeating 
his anti-God slogans, without any scientific proof, just by his "pure 
belief"...
Scientists cannot create neither the "primitive atom" (according to Abbe 
Georges Lemaitre), nor time for creation of a new Universe, though they may 
be spending billions of dollars. The LHC does not even function for one 
month. How can it create a new Universe? How is Science contaminated by God? 
This is absurd. Science cannot decide the question of God. But we can say 
that without God there cannot be origins of the Universe. Science can only 
explain how the Universe evolved, not how it came into being...

Regards.
Fr.Ivo 

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Santosh Helekar]

 Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
 of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
 http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
 references, some photographs and documents)





I hope most people are not misled by this contamination of science with 
someone's own religion.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Sat, 4/4/09, Fr. Ivo C. de Souza  wrote:
>
> ***This is absolutely wrong. Big Bang cannot start of
> itself. God is the Creator. If Large Hadron Collider (LHC)
> could create a new Universe with new time (not in our
> life-time or never), I shall accept that Big Bang began
> without God... God created time when he created the
> primitive nucleus, he created the Universe with time.
> 


  

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Fr. Ivo C. de Souza]

Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
references, some photographs and documents)





From: "Santosh Helekar" 

--- On Fri, 4/3/09, Fr. Ivo C. de Souza  wrote:


It cannot explain what went on billionths of a second before the Big bang.



The above statement is pure nonsense. According to the Big Bang theory 
there was no time before the Big Bang.
***This is absolutely wrong. Big Bang cannot start of itself. God is the 
Creator. If Large Hadron Collider (LHC) could create a new Universe with new 
time (not in our life-time or never), I shall accept that Big Bang began 
without God... God created time when he created the primitive nucleus, he 
created the Universe with time.

Regards.
Fr.Ivo 

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Santosh Helekar]

 Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
 of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
 http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
 references, some photographs and documents)





--- On Fri, 4/3/09, Fr. Ivo C. de Souza  wrote:
>
>It cannot explain what went on billionths of a second before the Big bang.
>

The above statement is pure nonsense. According to the Big Bang theory there 
was no time before the Big Bang.

Cheers,

Santosh




  

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Fr. Ivo C. de Souza]

Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
references, some photographs and documents)





From: "Santosh Helekar" 

Fr. Ivo wrote:


I have already answered that Science cannot create, and the scientific
experiment of Large Hadron Collider (LHC) gives us the confirmation.



The above is pure nonsense. The Large Hadron Collider is simply meant to 
create the temperatures and conditions that existed almost at the time 
(billionths of a second after it) of the Big Bang. This instrument is not 
yet fully functional. I believe the real experiments will start in 
September 2009.  Please see the following site for lay information about 
it:

http://www.lhc.ac.uk/about-the-lhc/faqs.html

(QUESTION) I have heard that the LHC will recreate the Big Bang, does that 
mean it might create another Universe and if so what will happen to our 
Universe?


(ANSWER) People sometimes refer to recreating the Big Bang, but this is 
misleading. What they actually mean is:


   * recreating the conditions and energies that existed shortly after the 
start of the Big Bang, not the moment at which the Big Bang started,


   * recreating conditions on a microscale, not on the same scale as the 
original Big Bang and,


   * recreating energies that are continually being produced naturally (by 
high energy cosmic rays hitting the earth’s atmosphere) but at will and 
inside sophisticated detectors that track what is happening.


No Big Bang – so no possibility of creating a new Universe.


***Thanks for the detailed scientific information given by Dr.Santosh. That 
is precisely what I am saying: The Large Hadron Collider will be useful for 
the scientific lab to teach students how evolution of the Universe took 
place. It is not yet functional. It cannot explain what went on billionths 
of a second before the Big bang. Science cannot create a new Universe with 
the original Big Bang, without God...

Regards.
Fr.Ivo

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Santosh Helekar]

 Remembering Aquino Braganca (b. 6 April 1924), who fought for freedom
 of the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. An online tribute
 http://aquinobraganca.wordpress.com/ (includes many historical
 references, some photographs and documents)





Fr. Ivo wrote:
>
>I have already answered that Science cannot create, and the scientific
>experiment of Large Hadron Collider (LHC) gives us the confirmation.
>

The above is pure nonsense. The Large Hadron Collider is simply meant to create 
the temperatures and conditions that existed almost at the time (billionths of 
a second after it) of the Big Bang. This instrument is not yet fully 
functional. I believe the real experiments will start in September 2009.  
Please see the following site for lay information about it:
http://www.lhc.ac.uk/about-the-lhc/faqs.html

Here is the pertinent quote that refutes the claim in the above quote from Fr. 
Ivo:

QUOTE
(QUESTION) I have heard that the LHC will recreate the Big Bang, does that mean 
it might create another Universe and if so what will happen to our Universe?

(ANSWER) People sometimes refer to recreating the Big Bang, but this is 
misleading. What they actually mean is:

* recreating the conditions and energies that existed shortly after the 
start of the Big Bang, not the moment at which the Big Bang started,

* recreating conditions on a microscale, not on the same scale as the 
original Big Bang and,

* recreating energies that are continually being produced naturally (by 
high energy cosmic rays hitting the earth’s atmosphere) but at will and inside 
sophisticated detectors that track what is happening.

No Big Bang – so no possibility of creating a new Universe.
UNQUOTE

Cheers,

Santosh


  

Re: [Goanet] God and science

[Fr. Ivo C. de Souza]

From: "Mario Goveia" 


This one is especially for Fr. Ivo:-))

God is sitting in Heaven, minding his own business, when a well known 
Goan-American scientist says to Him, "Lord, we don't need you anymore. 
Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing.  In 
other words, we can now do what you did in the 'beginning'."


"Oh, is that so?  Tell me..." replies God.

"Well" says the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into the
likeness of You and breathe life into it, thus creating man. "

"Well, that's interesting. Can you please show me?"

So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.

"Oh no, no, no, no..." interrupts God, "Please use your own dirt."
***Mario, we cannot answer the problem of God and satisfy the mystery of God 
with jokes.
I have already answered that Science cannot create, and the scientific 
experiment of Large Hadron

Collider (LHC) gives us the confirmation.
You should know by now that Science cannot answer these questions with 
proofs,

because it goes beyond phenomenal realm,
but we have the answer
from another source: The Word of God himself. If you do not accept it, I 
cannot force it upon anyone...
It is good to discuss, if we understand the common language. In the field of 
neuroscience I have leaned upon
the experiments of Dr.Mario Beauregard and his scientific conclusions, as 
found in the book, The Spiritual brain,
and the abstracts of his book. His conclusion is that the mystical 
experiences (of "communion with God")

of the Carmelite nuns are unique.
As he himself puts it, "These results suggest that mystical experiences are 
mediated by several
brain regions and systems". He explains throughout the book that these 
experiences are triggered from outside and are not
"artifacts of the brain", or "figments", or "hallucinations". Language is 
important, problem of dialogue arises

with the linguistic problems...
Regards.
Ft.Ivo 

[Goanet] God and science

[Mario Goveia]

This one is especially for Fr. Ivo:-))

God is sitting in Heaven, minding his own business, when a well known 
Goan-American scientist says to Him, "Lord, we don't need you anymore.  Science 
has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing.  In other words, 
we can now do what you did in the 'beginning'."

"Oh, is that so?  Tell me..." replies God.

"Well" says the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into the
likeness of You and breathe life into it, thus creating man. "

"Well, that's interesting. Can you please show me?"

So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.

"Oh no, no, no, no..." interrupts God, "Please use your own dirt."