[Goanet] Jewish Surname
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:50:16 -0500 From: Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Jewish Surname Message-ID: bf202eb21003092150r7ac9d8c1qb765052e994d4...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear Dr. Barad, You must be as impressed as I am with how much Goanetters know about first century Palestine, etc. Anyway. I will skip Jesus the Christ's surname, but give you the surname of another Jesus who presumably lived before Jesus Christ. He was Jeshu ben Pandira. Its all esoteric material, and Steiner of Anthroposophyhttp://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/EsoChristian/1904p01.html talked about this enity in a 1911 lecture in Leipzig. (Btw, the name Jesus has undergone multiple transliterations). It a bit odd, but today I went to pick up a book by Richard Smoley, The Dice Game of Shiva (recommended by mt friend Madhav Chari from Chennai), but before I got to it--a book on Steiner's lectures, and the Leipzig lecture caught my attention. Such things happens to me often, but lets leave it at that. I believe that it behooves us to be reasonable with each other on Goanet, if we are to maintain some relationship over the next say two decades. My point being that with all our insecurities, it is as though a red flag has been shown to the bulls when one says, But right now I am curious to know the SURNAME of our lord Jesus Christ Even if you are a Christian, the question is a bit jarring. How about, Can someone tell me what was Jesus's surname?, and perhaps also in a separate email. But before that anticipate that in the first place such things are known to a few, very few, and also fewer Catholics read the Bible. So I hope you checked out for yourself on Wiki, etc., or some encyclopedia. Do understand, that this is a suggestion and by now you must know I harbor no ill will towards you or others---although I do get up in arms sometimes for reasons other than encountering difference of I and the Other as opposed to the I, leading to We---related to Ahamkara. Having learnt, and learning from Samkhya, Sanathan Dharma, Zen etc., I really do believe that Indian Christians can too, as well as, there being a lot in western societies that we can all learn from. Anandane raha. Anandit dhrustit jag pahayla milel. Sagla purna honar. venantius j pinto Here is some information doe a reliable source: JESUS The word Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek Iesous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew Jeshua, or Joshua, or again Jehoshua, meaning Jehovah is salvation. Though the name in one form or another occurs frequently in the Old Testament, it was not borne by a person of prominence between the time of Josue, the son of Nun and Josue, the high priest in the days of Zorobabel. It was also the name of the author of Ecclesiaticus, of one of Christ's ancestors mentioned in the genealogy, found in the Third Gospel (Luke 3:29), and one of the St. Paul's companions (Colossians 4:11). During the Hellenizing period, Jason, a purely Greek analogon of Jesus, appears to have been adopted by many (1 Maccabees 8:17; 12:16; 14:22; 2 Maccabees 1:7; 2:24; 4:7-26; 5:5-10; Acts 17:5-9; Romans 16:21). The Greek name is connected with verb iasthai, to heal; it is therefore, not surprising that some of the Greek Fathers allied the word Jesus with same root (Eusebius, Dem. Ev., IV; cf. Acts 9:34; 10:38). Though about the time of Christ the name Jesus appears to have been fairly common (Josephus, Ant., XV, ix, 2; XVII, xiii, 1; XX, ix, 1; Bel. Jud., III, ix, 7; IV, iii, 9; VI, v, 5; Vit., 22) it was imposed on our Lord by God's express order (Luke 1:31; Matthew 1:21), to foreshow that the Child was destined to save his people from their sins. Philo (De Mutt. Nom., 21) is therefore, right when he explains Iesous as meaning soteria kyrion; Eusebius (Dem., Ev., IV, ad fin.; P.G., XXII, 333) gives the meaning Theou soterion; while St. Cyril of Jerusalem interprets the word as equivalent to soter (Catechetical Lectures X.13). This last writer, however, appears to agree with Clement of Alexandria in considering the word Iesous as of Greek origin (The Pedagogue III.12); St. Chrysostom emphasizes again the Hebrew derivation of the word and its meaning soter (Homily 2 on Matthew, No. 2), thus agreeing with the exegesis of the angel speaking to St. Joseph (Matthew 1:21). Surprisingly, even the French call Jesus Jezu, just like us. how He was addressed in Portuguese? CHRIST The word Christ, Christos, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messias, means anointed. According to the Old Law, priests (Exodus 29:29; Leviticus 4:3), kings (1 Samuel 10:1; 24:7), and prophets (Isaiah 61:1) were supposed to be anointed for their respective offices; now, the Christ, or the Messias, combined this threefold dignity in His Person. It is not surprising, therefore, that for centuries the Jews had referred to their expected Deliverer as the Anointed; perhaps
Re: [Goanet] Jewish Surname
There is also the Tribe of Manasseh. Manasseh (of the House of Joseph) were descendants of a son of Joseph (son of Jacob and Rachel). The Jews in Mizoram in northeast India, more correctly Mizo Jews claim to descend from Manasseh. Reading further into this matter will take you into an interesting smorgasbord of words raging from enclaves to exclaves, eponyms, aetiology, all manners of metaphors, including therapeutic metaphors. Interesting read Jews Lost and found, in Indiahttp://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/india/entry/jews_lost_and_found_in (from The Jerusalem Post). I believe many of them are now in Israel. venantius j pinto From: Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com To: goanet goa...@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Jewish Surname (del) It is possible some rich Jews with immovable properties with Manases as surnames could have converted to Christianity and become Menezes one of whom came to Goa as a Christian missionary and bequeathed his surname to hundreds of Hindu converts.
[Goanet] Jewish Surname
Let me pose a question to J. Colaco who is notorious for his responses after response. My query is further to his response i.e. Message: 1, Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 on the subject Jewish Surname (his response is appended here below) I don't understand J. Colaco's responses to every messages appearing in the forum! But right now I am curious to know the SURNAME of our lord Jesus Christ I expect J. C. will answer this question without twisting i.e. just write the surname ..that is what I am expectingfrom JC. Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad J. C's RESPONSE Antonio has put forward an interesting theory. Here are two possibilities - one of which is scientifically verifiable i.e. the common maternal lineage can be traced back to Portugal or perhaps ...Spain: 1: The Menezes came from a part of Portugal called Menezes. The original surname (perhaps) being de Menezes 2: Genetic input during the period when the (expelled) Muslim rulers of Goa returned and surrounded (blockaded) it. The Old Goa Menezes sought refuge (et al) in Divar. Is this not the period when the bund' to Ribandar was built and the origin of the tradition when a token of the first crop is handed over to the Governor by the local farmers? jc On 8 March 2010 00:44, Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com wrote: It is possible some rich Jews with immovable properties with Manases as surnames could have converted to Christianity and become Menezes one of whom came to Goa as a Christian missionary and bequeathed his surname to hundreds of Hindu converts.
Re: [Goanet] Jewish Surname
There wereno formal surnames at that time; the nearest to a surname was the Nazarene (of Nazareth) or bar Joseph s/o Joseph. The Christ was a title. There is belief that Joseph's family name was Alpheus same as his brother's f/o James Jose and Judas Thadeus. Alfred Have I got you aout of the hole dear doc? From: dr.udayba...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:56:34 +0530 Subject: [Goanet] Jewish Surname Let me pose a question to J. Colaco who is notorious for his responses after response. My query is further to his response i.e. Message: 1, Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 on the subject Jewish Surname (his response is appended here below) I don't understand J. Colaco's responses to every messages appearing in the forum! But right now I am curious to know the SURNAME of our lord Jesus Christ I expect J. C. will answer this question without twisting i.e. just write the surname ..that is what I am expectingfrom JC. Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad J. C's RESPONSE Antonio has put forward an interesting theory. Here are two possibilities - one of which is scientifically verifiable i.e. the common maternal lineage can be traced back to Portugal or perhaps ...Spain: 1: The Menezes came from a part of Portugal called Menezes. The original surname (perhaps) being de Menezes 2: Genetic input during the period when the (expelled) Muslim rulers of Goa returned and surrounded (blockaded) it. The Old Goa Menezes sought refuge (et al) in Divar. Is this not the period when the bund' to Ribandar was built and the origin of the tradition when a token of the first crop is handed over to the Governor by the local farmers? jc On 8 March 2010 00:44, Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com wrote: It is possible some rich Jews with immovable properties with Manases as surnames could have converted to Christianity and become Menezes one of whom came to Goa as a Christian missionary and bequeathed his surname to hundreds of Hindu converts. _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969
Re: [Goanet] Jewish Surname
Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com wrote (excerpted infra.): 1: Let me pose a question to J. Colaco who is notorious for his responses after response. 2: I don't understand J. Colaco's responses to every messages appearing in the forum! 3: But right now I am curious to know the SURNAME of our lord Jesus Christ 4: I expect J. C. will answer this question without twisting i.e. just write the surname 5:..that is what I am expecting Dear Dr. Barad, First of all, my apologies for your inability to understand my responses. I will try write in Ingraji, the next time around. For now, please allow me to respond in simple English. Secondly, I appreciate the fact that you have omitted verbal abuse from your post. Thank you Sir! I am also delighted to know that you are expecting, albeit a response from me. Now, to your substantive question. ANSWER: It is my understanding that surnames were not assigned in the days of Jesus. This explains why Jesus is known as Jesus of Nazareth..or (in an Iberian language) Jesus de Nazaré I hope this has quenched your curiosity. sincerely and (of course) very respectfully jc
Re: [Goanet] Jewish Surname
On 9 March 2010 07:26, Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com wrote: Let me pose a question to J. Colaco who is notorious for his responses after response. My query is further to his response i.e. Message: 1, Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 on the subject Jewish Surname (his response is appended here below) I don't understand J. Colaco's responses to every messages appearing in the forum! But right now I am curious to know the SURNAME of our lord Jesus Christ I expect J. C. will answer this question without twisting i.e. just write the surname ..that is what I am expectingfrom JC. Best regards, Dr. U. G. Barad RESPONSE: If I may, in those days and in the Middle East in Particular there were no surnames. In Arabic even today it is thus - Abu Giles - i.e. father or Giles (Since Giles is better known among his friends). So one can have a long line of 'Al Saud'Abdul Rahman bin Abdullah bin Abdul Rahman al Saud. Which literally shows the line up to Abdul Rahman who was incidentally, was also the father of King Abdel Aziz, the founder of Saudi Arabia. So it was Jesus, son of Joseph or/and also Jesus of Nazareth, the carpenter, or son of the carpenter. You are most welcome; if I can be of any more help be knock on my door! -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes.
Re: [Goanet] Jewish Surname
Dear Dr. Barad, You must be as impressed as I am with how much Goanetters know about first century Palestine, etc. Anyway. I will skip Jesus the Christ's surname, but give you the surname of another Jesus who presumably lived before Jesus Christ. He was Jeshu ben Pandira. Its all esoteric material, and Steiner of Anthroposophyhttp://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/EsoChristian/1904p01.html talked about this enity in a 1911 lecture in Leipzig. (Btw, the name Jesus has undergone multiple transliterations). It a bit odd, but today I went to pick up a book by Richard Smoley, The Dice Game of Shiva (recommended by mt friend Madhav Chari from Chennai), but before I got to it--a book on Steiner's lectures, and the Leipzig lecture caught my attention. Such things happens to me often, but lets leave it at that. I believe that it behooves us to be reasonable with each other on Goanet, if we are to maintain some relationship over the next say two decades. My point being that with all our insecurities, it is as though a red flag has been shown to the bulls when one says, But right now I am curious to know the SURNAME of our lord Jesus Christ Even if you are a Christian, the question is a bit jarring. How about, Can someone tell me what was Jesus's surname?, and perhaps also in a separate email. But before that anticipate that in the first place such things are known to a few, very few, and also fewer Catholics read the Bible. So I hope you checked out for yourself on Wiki, etc., or some encyclopedia. Do understand, that this is a suggestion and by now you must know I harbor no ill will towards you or others---although I do get up in arms sometimes for reasons other than encountering difference of I and the Other as opposed to the I, leading to We---related to Ahamkara. Having learnt, and learning from Samkhya, Sanathan Dharma, Zen etc., I really do believe that Indian Christians can too, as well as, there being a lot in western societies that we can all learn from. Anandane raha. Anandit dhrustit jag pahayla milel. Sagla purna honar. venantius j pinto
[Goanet] Jewish Surname
There is also the Tribe of Manasseh. Manasseh (of the House of Joseph) were descendants of a son of Joseph (son of Jacob and Rachel). The Jews in Mizoram in northeast India, more correctly Mizo Jews claim to descend from Manasseh. Reading further into this matter will take you into an interesting smorgasbord of words raging from enclaves to exclaves, eponyms, aetiology, all manners of metaphors, including therapeutic metaphors. Interesting read Jews Lost and found, in Indiahttp://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/india/entry/jews_lost_and_found_in(from The Jerusalem Post). I believe many of them are now in Israel. venantius j pinto From: Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com To: goanet goa...@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Jewish Surname (del) It is possible some rich Jews with immovable properties with Manases as surnames could have converted to Christianity and become Menezes one of whom came to Goa as a Christian missionary and bequeathed his surname to hundreds of Hindu converts.
Re: [Goanet] Jewish Surname
Antonio has put forward an interesting theory. Here are two possibilities - one of which is scientifically verifiable i.e. the common maternal lineage can be traced back to Portugal or perhaps ...Spain: 1: The Menezes came from a part of Portugal called Menezes. The original surname (perhaps) being de Menezes 2: Genetic input during the period when the (expelled) Muslim rulers of Goa returned and surrounded (blockaded) it. The Old Goa Menezes sought refuge (et al) in Divar. Is this not the period when the bund' to Ribandar was built and the origin of the tradition when a token of the first crop is handed over to the Governor by the local farmers? jc On 8 March 2010 00:44, Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com wrote: It is possible some rich Jews with immovable properties with Manases as surnames could have converted to Christianity and become Menezes one of whom came to Goa as a Christian missionary and bequeathed his surname to hundreds of Hindu converts.
[Goanet] Jewish surname?
I believe Manases is a Jewish Surname! Mr. Menezes might have a point in order. -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes.
[Goanet] Jewish Surname
Brilliant !Gabe believes Manases is a Jewish surname. I believe it could have possibly been Lusitanized as Menezes. When Dona Isabela of Spain was betrothed to King Manuel of Portugal in the late 15th century, the King of Spain stipulated that the future groom had to expel all Jews and Moors from Portugal.Dom Manuel , however, gave them a chance, either to convert to Christianity or to leave Portugal. It is possible some rich Jews with immovable properties with Manases as surnames could have converted to Christianity and become Menezes one of whom came to Goa as a Christian missionary and bequeathed his surname to hundreds of Hindu converts.
