Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (3)
--- Bosco - Goanet Volunteer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Chris, I'm not disputing Merriam-Webster. > What I contested was your assertion that Roland's > comments being classified as "snide". I gave > you and other Goanetters an example yesterday of > snide comments - a post by Mario Goveia. I suppose > its just a coincidence that you and Mario, both > missed the gist of Miguel Braganza's fine post on > dispropotionate Punishment to Crime re the 3 Goan > youth that were recently electrocuted or the issue > about the diversion of the Mhadei river or the issue > about the electrocution of wild bulls - 6 > paragraphs in that article and yet you and Mario > only choose to ramble about the Israel, Hezbollah, > Bush, etc.There is very little interest in Goa > or Goans in both your writings. > Mario observes: > First of all, for Bosco to say that we, who live in the US, have "little" interest in Goa and Goans is just flat out false as several of my posts on Goanet prove. In fact, contrary to Bosco's false allegation above, we never INITIATE posts on "Israel, Hezbollah, Bush, etc.", which would be "off-topic" on Goanet, but we reserve the right to RESPOND to others who do, especially if the facts are misrepresented. Somehow, when others include cheap shots about the US in their posts they are considered "on topic". > BTW, when was the last time Bosco wrote a post on Goa and Goans? > Bosco's comments above show his personal biases on behalf of certain posters by snidely twisting the facts to his advantage. > The following URL shows what I objected to in Miguel's post as well as my detailed response: > http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-October/049063.html > My response simply put a totally gratuitous and egregious analogy in it's proper context. > My response was factual, robust and to the point. Nothing snide about it, unless you like inappropriate political analogies inserted into essays on totally unrelated Goan issues. > Bosco writes: > > And talking of cheap shots - here's one directed > back at Miguel: > > http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet- > goanet.org/2006-October/049327.html > Mario illustrates more bias: > In the URL above I was complimenting Miguel for writing a different and very nice essay, in my never humble opinion, this time without any inappropriate analogies reflecting his personal biases on mid-east political affairs. > For Bosco's edification, a "cheap shot" in a verbal context is defined as an aggressive and unfair remark directed against a DEFENSELESS person. > My remark on Miguel's essay was complimentary and factual so how could it have been "aggressive" or "unfair"? In addition, I don't think Miguel is DEFENSELESS by any means, as shown by his own REALLY "aggressive" and "unfair" response to me as shown below. Of course, these comments were obviously with Bosco's full approval since we didn't see a slew of angry posts by Bosco directed at Miguel analogous to his responses to Chris and me: > Miguel's "aggressive" and "unfair" post, which did not address ANYTHING I had written before, just a mean-spirited verbal attack, was as follows: > "Has anyone ever logically ended a discussion with Mario Goveia on the Goanet or on Goenchim Xapotam? If not, why should I begin? > The good book says, "When a wise man argueth with a fool, whether he laughs or raves, there is no end." Why even attempt, either left or right?" > For someone who is defenseless this would also be a "cheap shot". Since I am neither defenseless nor a fool, I did have an appropriate response to this verbal hit-and-run attempt by Miguel: > http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-October/049321.html > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Dears, Thank you for speaking up [both on Goanet and in private communications] in support of the truth and rationality vis-a-vis the "Hizbollah v/s the Israelis" debate injected by Mario Goveia, Chris Vaz and Mumbaikar Fernandes into my point about DISPROPORTIONATE USE OF FORCE by the powerful against the underprivileged. No where have I said, or implied, that I support the Hizbollah point of view. Likewise, neither do I support Net terrorists. May be if the cops pick one of them for over speeding , beat them up and put them in a lock up over a long weekend without medical or legal assistance, they will understand that the world does not begin and end in the flaming Bush! Till then it is back to the Bible, "If is wise man argueth with a fool, whether he raves or he laugh, THERE IS NO END." There is no one so blind as one who refuses to see. Viva Goa. Miguel Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:23:53 -0400 From: "Bosco - Goanet Volunteer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: RESPONSE: Chris, I suppose its just a coincidence that you and Mario, both missed the gist of Miguel Braganza's fine post on dispropotionate Punishment to Crime re the 3 Goan youth that were recently electrocuted or the issue about the diversion of the Mhadei river or the issue about the electrocution of wild bulls - 6 paragraphs in that article and yet you and Mario only choose to ramble about the Israel, Hezbollah, Bush, etc.There is very little interest in Goa or Goans in both your writings. And talking of cheap shots - here's one directed back at Miguel: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-October/049327.html Tue Oct 10 08:38:28 PDT 2006 Chris Vaz wrote > Insofar as the intrusion into this thread of discussion on the "U.S. > government, George Bush..." perhaps your response might have been better addressed to Roland since he brought those enterprises into the > equation -- I merely responded. I try faithfully to follow Goanet > diktat/s :--) RESPONSE: Roland Francis has deliberated here on Goanet on a wide variety of issues. His passion for Goa and Goans is visible in his writings. You on the other hand, Chris, have only piped up about US politics or to duel specific personalities - both counter to Goanet diktats. 2. Re: KONKAN CURRY: Life is constant change! (Mervyn Lobo) 8. Re: KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2) (Bosco - Goanet Volunteer) Viva Goa.Say it with feni. MIGUEL BRAGANZA, Mhapsa Horticulturist/ Editor ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Hi Chris A thousand apologies. My post was definitely not aimed at you at all but at someone else who sends endless numbers of critical posts. Clearly, errors will take place sometimes and this is a perfect example. Apologies once again. I remain mystified how this error was made in my response to Goanet. Regards Cornel - ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Tue Oct 10 08:38:28 PDT 2006 Chris Vaz wrote: > Bosco- > It might be crystal clear to you "that many of us have understood" what > Roland has had to say." But my Websters defines "snide" as "mean, > cheap / obliquely malicious" -- and in my opinion that is exactly the > manner in which Roland gratuitously characterized "Dick Cheney and Donald > Rumsfeld both of whom quite noted (sic) for their self-delusions on > American foreign policy." Perhaps if "cheap shot" would be more > acceptable > than "snide" I would be happy to make that substitution. RESPONSE: Chris, I'm not disputing Merriam-Webster. What I contested was your assertion that Roland's comments being classified as "snide". I gave you and other Goanetters an example yesterday of snide comments - a post by Mario Goveia. I suppose its just a coincidence that you and Mario, both missed the gist of Miguel Braganza's fine post on dispropotionate Punishment to Crime re the 3 Goan youth that were recently electrocuted or the issue about the diversion of the Mhadei river or the issue about the electrocution of wild bulls - 6 paragraphs in that article and yet you and Mario only choose to ramble about the Israel, Hezbollah, Bush, etc.There is very little interest in Goa or Goans in both your writings. And talking of cheap shots - here's one directed back at Miguel: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-October/049327.html > Insofar as the intrusion into this thread of discussion on the "U.S. > government, George Bush..." perhaps your response might have been better > addressed to Roland since he brought those enterprises into the > equation -- I merely responded. I try faithfully to follow Goanet > diktat/s :--) RESPONSE: Roland Francis has deliberated here on Goanet on a wide variety of issues. His passion for Goa and Goans is visible in his writings. You on the other hand, Chris, have only piped up about US politics or to duel specific personalities - both counter to Goanet diktats. Rgds Chris ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Cornel-- If you had purused my posting thoroughly, you would have noticed that I did not mean to criticize anybody but merely pointe out the inaccurate characterization by Roland about the supposed actions by certain officers in the Bush (oops!) administration. I did not want those comments go unchallenged! Insofar as original thinking /reflection is concerned, I do my bit, time permitting. Original articles need deep thought and careful research-- a time consuming operation, a scarce commodity since I have several irons in the fire all at once! I much rather spend my available time reading respected publications such as The Wall Street Journal especially the editorial pages where one can be inspired by opinion makers of considerable intellect--much superior to mine! I have no desire to opinionate in a forum such as Goanet as we already have enough intellectuals of our own and several pretenders! In fact I admire your efforts to engage in original essays and have wondered how you find the time to write so loftily and sonorously--almost ad infinitum. And there are others on Goanet who expound endlessly by using the works of others! I am sure you have recognized some of these charlatans to your utter disgust! Oi mur're??? Ciao! Chris - Original Message - From: "cornel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2) > Hi Bosco > I note your subtle 'reprimand' to someone who endlessly criticises others > on > Goanet but who has not, to my knowledge, ever written a substantive > article > for readers to figure out some original thinki ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
--- Bosco - Goanet Volunteer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mario, if you are looking for gratuitous > generalities and snide remarks, please refer to > your own recent post, specifically the last > sentence: > > http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-October/049147.html > > You are NOT any less guilty, while accusing others > of the same things you indulge in ? If you would > like others to change their style of writing and > demeanor, I'd suggest you start with yourself first. > Mario explains his post: > Here is the entire text of what Bosco is referring to as "snide" and "a generality", obviously because he disagreed with what I had written: > "Goanetters should read "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and "Fear No Evil - The Classic Memoir of One Man's Triumph over a Police State." by Natan Sharansky to see whether citizens of the old Soviet Union really reconciled religion with communism, or not. BTW, both these authors spent more than three weeks in Russia in 1969." > This was in response to a post by Cornel in which he specifically cited a three week stay in Russia in the 60's the only purpose of which was to add credibility to an insinuation that he found religion to co-exist in harmony with communism in the old Soviet Union. > To counter this insinuation which I found offensive to say the least based on what I have learned about religion and communism from various Russian emigres who grew up in the old Soviet Union, I pointed out the published experience of noted Russians mentioned above, who had spent much of their lifetimes, not just three months, battling the hostility of communism towards religion. > I guess if you think that the old Soviet Union was a bastion of religious freedom, you would object to my comments as "snide" and "general". In fact my post was very specific, pointed, factual and only derogatory to those who would disagree, though it may have been tinged with some annoyance at the technique and conclusions I was objecting to. > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
--- Miguel Braganza wrote: > > George Bush is not a part of "Konkan Curry". He > will not be , unless he visits this region or > impacts it for some reason. I would think that > George Bush should not be a part of Goanet but, > obviously, with three out of the four Moderators > being America based, that is not quite possible. > Mario observes: > I agree with this as a generality, especially for a Goan like Miguel who is based in India and probably takes his freedom and democracy for granted like most Indians do today. However, I believe it was Miguel, and not the TWO out of four moderators who are America-based, who gratuitously inserted the comments about Hezbollah and Israel into an article where it had no relevance and archly suggested that Israel's response be "proportional" and "to scale" when responding to attacks by those who have vowed to wipe them off the map. I then opined on the bankruptcy of the notion that a nation should be "proportional" in their response to a group that is actively trying to eliminate them from the face of the earth. > I'm not sure how George Bush got into this thread, since he had not been mentioned by anyone previously, though I suspect it may be a Freudian inclusion:-)) > Miguel writes: > > I do not know if you know me well enough to state > what is ...or is not...my forte. I have attended > International Conferences and edited the proceedings > for agencies like ICIMOD [International Council for > Intergrated Mountain Development], ANGOC [Asian NGO > Coalition], IIRR [International Institute for Rural > Reconstruction]. I do not know if your friend Mario > has comparable credentials. Just because we do not > normally boast, it is not to be presumed that we do > not know anything. > Mario observes: > Once again, Miguel has made an erroneous assumption, which is that Joseph was being loyal to a friend. Just for the record, Joseph wouldn't recognize me if I passed him on the street, yet. So far, he simply knows me as a fellow Goanetter. > I'm glad for the rest of Goanet that Joseph's simple observation that Miguel had not been specific in responding to my comments caused Miguel to discard his normal modesty and tell us about his impressive-sounding credentials as an editor of the proceedings of various international conferences. I'm sure the level of English at these conferences could use some editing from someone educated in English-speaking India. The relevance of these impressive credentials to this thread and the comments herein were less clear to me. > I must confess I have not edited the proceedings of any international conference [where some participants may not even speak English, which makes it a tough job, or perhaps an easy job, I'm not sure which:-))] though I have been responsible for publishing the minutes of the meetings of one national professional organization, one where everyone spoke fluent American and could actually challenge my descriptions of what had occurred.:-)) > In my opinion, what one knows or does not know is put on display when one writes and publishes, even on a forum such as this. Does a reader change his opinion of the written word because of the writer's credentials, if what was written made no sense? > I am less interested in the quality of a specific Goanetter's command of English, recognizing that there are some members whose primary language growing up may have been something other than English. I am more interested in their thoughts and their logic, their context and their perspective, their sensitivity to the plight of others, and their specificity in debate when they disagree with someone or something. > And in case no one has noticed, I have praised Miguel's writing when he has avoided gratuitous references that did not fit into the points he was making, in my never-humble opinion:-)) > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Hi Bosco I note your subtle 'reprimand' to someone who endlessly criticises others on Goanet but who has not, to my knowledge, ever written a substantive article for readers to figure out some original thinking/reflection of his own on any Goan theme whatsoever. Goanet blurb says it welcomes essays and it would be good to see if the 'constant critic' can write something intelligent and substantive for a change, instead of endlessly harping on with inane comments on what others have written! Cornel - Original Message - From: "Bosco - Goanet Volunteer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 5:07 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2) ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Bosco- It might be crystal clear to you "that many of us have understood" what Roland has had to say." But my Websters defines "snide" as "mean, cheap / obliquely malicious" -- and in my opinion that is exactly the manner in which Roland gratuitously characterized "Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld both of whom quite noted (sic) for their self-delusions on American foreign policy."Perhaps if "cheap shot" would be more acceptable than "snide" I would be happy to make that substitution. Insofar as the intrusion into this thread of discussion on the "U.S. government, George Bush..." perhaps your response might have been better addressed to Roland since he brought those enterprises into the equation -- I merely responded. I try faithfully to follow Goanet diktat/s :--) Rgds Chris - Original Message - From: "Bosco - Goanet Volunteer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2) > On Mon Oct 9 08:51:15 PDT 2006, Chris Vaz wrote: > >> This snide remarks unerringly divulges the bias the writer has against >> the >> Bush administration and goes further to >> divulge what side of the divide he is on without pinpointing >> "self-delusions" of the two cabinet officers who are >> carrying on the foreign policy dictated by the commander-in-chief. In >> brief, the writer is indulging in namecalling-- >> exactly what Mario accuses his detractors of...without pointing to any >> specifics that can be rebutted. > > RESPONSE: Chris, there is nothing snide in what Roland Francis had to say. > What he said was in crystal clear English that many of us have understood. > > This discussion is about an article authored by Miguel Braganza. It would > be > appropriate to make comments related to that article. Its obvious there > are > some who have a very narrow view of what they read on Goanet and can only > take discussion down the same street over and over again. > > For those who may think of responding to this thread - this is not a > discussion on the US government, George Bush or anybody or anything down > that alley, so please don't bother responding along those lines. > > Thank you - Bosco > Goanet Admin > http://www.goanet.org - where Goans connect > > ___ > Goanet mailing list > Goanet@lists.goanet.org > http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
-Original Message- From: Mario Goveia Mario observes: > Roland, You are obviously one of those on Goanet who confuses such inane and gratuitous generalities as a substitute for intelligent debate. Bosco responds: Mario, if you are looking for gratuitous generalities and snide remarks, please refer to your own recent post, specifically the last sentence: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-October/049147.html You are NOT any less guilty, while accusing others of the same things you indulge in ? If you would like others to change their style of writing and demeanor, I'd suggest you start with yourself first. - Bosco Goanet Admin http://www.goanet.org - where Goans connect ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
On Mon Oct 9 08:51:15 PDT 2006, Chris Vaz wrote: > This snide remarks unerringly divulges the bias the writer has against the > Bush administration and goes further to > divulge what side of the divide he is on without pinpointing > "self-delusions" of the two cabinet officers who are > carrying on the foreign policy dictated by the commander-in-chief. In > brief, the writer is indulging in namecalling-- > exactly what Mario accuses his detractors of...without pointing to any > specifics that can be rebutted. RESPONSE: Chris, there is nothing snide in what Roland Francis had to say. What he said was in crystal clear English that many of us have understood. This discussion is about an article authored by Miguel Braganza. It would be appropriate to make comments related to that article. Its obvious there are some who have a very narrow view of what they read on Goanet and can only take discussion down the same street over and over again. For those who may think of responding to this thread - this is not a discussion on the US government, George Bush or anybody or anything down that alley, so please don't bother responding along those lines. Thank you - Bosco Goanet Admin http://www.goanet.org - where Goans connect ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
--- Roland Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > c) Mario Goveia's opinions on West Asia or America > are by far not the most analytical in those areas. > Personally I think his arguments are not borne out > by past or enfolding events. The best that can be > said about his opinions is that he is in good > company with Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld both > of whom quite noted for their self-delusions on > American foreign policy. > Mario observes: > Roland, You are obviously one of those on Goanet who confuses such inane and gratuitous generalities as a substitute for intelligent debate. > Given my prolific and detailed explanations of my numerous opinions, one would expect something more objective, specific and relevant than vague comparisons with someone else's opinions, which I doubt you will also be able to refute in any specific manner that makes any sense, preferring to delude yourself into describing them as "delusions". > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
--- Miguel Braganza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dear Gabe, > > Has anyone ever logically ended a discussion with > Mario Goveia on the Goanet or on Goenchim Xapotam? > If not, why should I begin? > > The good book says, "When a wise man argueth with > a fool, whether he laughs or raves, there is no > end." Why even attempt, either left or right? > Mario observes: > Miguel apparently considers himself to be "a wise man", yet is hiding behind sarcasm, ridicule and generalized abuse, thinking that these are valid substitutes for rational debate. > I had responded to something I considered utter nonsense written by Miguel, in an article where it had no relevance. I specified the specific passages I took issue with, and then rebutted it in some detail with facts and opinions of my own in my post: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-October/049063.html > In response, we see Miguel's sarcastic comments above, which can politely be described as pathetic at best. > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
It's news to me that Bush in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief makes foreign policy. And here was I all along thinking that as C-in-C the President is the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. Unless Chris Vaz is implying that the foreign policy of the United States is carried out through the Armed Forces. Actually he's nearer to the truth than he realizes. Which would make Bush a kin of Pervez Musharref and the US akin to Pakistan. Something new I also learned fron Chris Vaz is that Bush "dictated" foreign policy to his cabinet officers Cheney and Rumsfeld. Poor Condolezza Rice as Secretary of State which has charge of foreign policy has been left completely out of Chris Vaz's equation. On 10/9/06, Chris Vaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This snide remarks unerringly divulges the bias the writer has against the > Bush administration and goes further to divulge what side of the divide he > is on without pinpointing "self-delusions" of the two cabinet officers who > are carrying on the foreign policy dictated by the commander-in-chief. In > brief, the writer is indulging in namecalling--exactly what Mario accuses > his detractors of...without pointing to any specifics that can be rebutted. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Dear Joseph, You are entitled to your opinion about the whole world, including George Bush, Olmert, Saddam Hussein, Mario Goveia and me. It bothers me not. In 'Konkan Curry' [published in the GT every Friday and basically aimed at a Goan audience interested in Goa though the reader may be based anywhere in the world], I write exclusively about the Konkan region, including my native Goa. From the observations of Roland Francis and Gabe Menezes on the net and from others to me personally, I presume that it is reaching the reader as desired. George Bush is not a part of "Konkan Curry". He will not be , unless he visits this region or impacts it for some reason. I would think that George Bush should not be a part of Goanet but, obviously, with three out of the four Moderators being America based, that is not quite possible. They exercise their choice, you exercise yours and I exercise mine. Exercise keeps everyone healthy ;-)) I do not know if you know me well enough to state what is ...or is not...my forte. I have attended International Conferences and edited the proceedings for agencies like ICIMOD [International Council for Intergrated Mountain Development], ANGOC [Asian NGO Coalition], IIRR [International Institute for Rural Reconstruction]. I do not know if your friend Mario has comparable credentials. Just because we do not normally boast, it is not to be presumed that we do not know anything. Not all Goans in Goa are here because we are not good enough to go elsewhere. I am here by conscious choice, doing my bit to make this place better in the way I can manage to the best of my ability, nothing less. I am quite well versed with international politics but have no desire to enter into unnecessary controversies. It does not change things one whit. Those who want to discuss these matters are free to do so at the proper fora. Do not try to draw me into the vortex of a cyclone; cyclones do no one any good ever. Viva Goa. Miguel Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 01:13:28 -0400 From: "Roland Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Joseph, I disagree with your statement below on several points: a) Miguel's expertise in botany and horticulture does not preclude him from writing knowlegeably on other issues. I may mention that I find Miguel's posts as interesting as I find those of many else. . On 08/10/06, joseph fernandes wrote: > Dear Miguel > > When a person cannot refute anothers assertions, point > by point, he then resorts to generalities and quotes as you have done. > > Your forte is Horticulture, and certainly you cannot > engage Mario on West Asian or US politics. > > Joseph Fernandes > Mumbai From: "Gabe Menezes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear Joseph, What has West Asian or US politics to do with posting 'Goan' stuff on this site? You are betraying your own request not that long ago - when you suggested that only 'things Goan' be posted on this site. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1543199,00.html. Miguel writes about Goa and Goans on Goanet..including his botanical stuff which pertains to Goa. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England Viva Goa.Say it with feni. MIGUEL BRAGANZA, Mhapsa Horticulturist/ Editor - Find out what India is talking about on - Yahoo! Answers India Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Yahoo! Messenger Version 8. Get it NOW -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/attachments/20061009/b216af72/attachment.htm ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
On 09/10/06, Chris Vaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Roland Francis wrote: > > "Mario ... is in good company with Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld both of > whom quite noted for their self-delusions on American foreign policy..." > > This snide remarks unerringly divulges the bias the writer has against the > Bush administration and goes further to divulge what side of the divide he > is on without pinpointing "self-delusions" of the two cabinet officers who > are carrying on the foreign policy dictated by the commander-in-chief. In > brief, the writer is indulging in namecalling--exactly what Mario accuses > his detractors of...without pointing to any specifics that can be rebutted. > > Miguel's posts are certainly interesting -- or amusing -- but they are > certainly not responsive to the issues being discussed... RESPONSE: Here is a proactive current response as per your request:- http://www.theointment.com/?p=190 -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Roland Francis wrote: "Mario ... is in good company with Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld both of whom quite noted for their self-delusions on American foreign policy..." This snide remarks unerringly divulges the bias the writer has against the Bush administration and goes further to divulge what side of the divide he is on without pinpointing "self-delusions" of the two cabinet officers who are carrying on the foreign policy dictated by the commander-in-chief. In brief, the writer is indulging in namecalling--exactly what Mario accuses his detractors of...without pointing to any specifics that can be rebutted. Miguel's posts are certainly interesting -- or amusing -- but they are certainly not responsive to the issues being discussed... - Original Message - From: "Roland Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2) > Joseph, > I disagree with your statement below on several points: > > a) Miguel's expertise in botany and horticulture does not preclude him > from writing knowlegeably on other issues. > > > ___ > Goanet mailing list > Goanet@lists.goanet.org > http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Joseph, I disagree with your statement below on several points: a) Miguel's expertise in botany and horticulture does not preclude him from writing knowlegeably on other issues. b) Not refuting another's argument point by point neither indicates generalizations nor weakness in refutation. It merely indicates one's style. c) Mario Goveia's opinions on West Asia or America are by far not the most analytical in those areas. Personally I think his arguments are not borne out by past or enfolding events. The best that can be said about his opinions is that he is in good company with Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld both of whom quite noted for their self-delusions on American foreign policy. I may mention that I find Miguel's posts as interesting as I find those of many else. Joseph Fernandes of Mumbai wrote: Your forte is Horticulture, and certainly you cannot engage Mario on West Asian or US politics. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
On 08/10/06, joseph fernandes wrote: > Dear Miguel > > When a person cannot refute anothers assertions, point > by point, he then resorts to generalities and quotes as you have done. > > Your forte is Horticulture, and certainly you cannot > engage Mario on West Asian or US politics. > > Joseph Fernandes > Mumbai RESPONSE:_ Dear Joseph, Your unreserved loyalty to Mario will not be reciprocated...you will not be sponsored for entry into the USA ! What has West Asian or US politics to do with posting 'Goan' stuff on this site? You are betraying your own request not that long ago - when you suggested that only 'things Goan' be posted on this site. Mario will defend all that is now wrong with the USA including the latest scandal. For a full read and to enlighten yourself please click on to the URL; which both you and your mentor are in denial of:- http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1543199,00.html. Kindly refrain from posting insulting emails hereMiguel writes about Goa and Goans on Goanet..including his botanial stuff which pertains to Goa. Your mentor on the other hand is very shallow and rambles on and on about nowt! -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Dear Miguel When a person cannot refute anothers assertions, point by point, he then resorts to generalities and quotes as you have done. Your forte is Horticulture, and certainly you cannot engage Mario on West Asian or US politics. Joseph Fernandes Mumbai = >Miguel wrote: >Has anyone ever logically ended a discussion with >Mario Goveia on the Goanet or on Goenchim Xapotam? >If not, why should I begin? >The good book says, " When a wise man argueth with >a fool, whether he laughs or raves, there is no >end." Why even attempt, either left or right? __ Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new http://in.answers.yahoo.com/ ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
Dear Gabe, Has anyone ever logically ended a discussion with Mario Goveia on the Goanet or on Goenchim Xapotam? If not, why should I begin? The good book says, " When a wise man argueth with a fool, whether he laughs or raves, there is no end." Why even attempt, either left or right? Viva Goa Miguel From: Mario Goveia --- On 01/10/06, Mario Goveia wrote: > > Miguel, perhaps it is you who needs to keep Mark > Twain's admonition in mind at all times, to avoid > using inappropriate examples to make possibly > appropriate points:-)) ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment (2)
--- On 01/10/06, Mario Goveia wrote: > > Miguel, perhaps it is you who needs to keep Mark > Twain's admonition in mind at all times, to avoid > using inappropriate examples to make possibly > appropriate points:-)) > > > Perhaps you are unaware that it is Hezbollah, along > with Hamas, Syria and Iran, that have not only > publicly stated as their goal the ELIMINATION of > Israel, but have failed not for any lack of trying > since 1948 along with several other Arab states that > have since given up after repeatedly having their > behinds kicked. > --- Gabe Menezes responded: > RESPONSE: Miguel mentioned in passing about Hezbollah.the main crux of his post was about Goa releated issues. The screed in reply, by Goveia is right wing propaganda and has no right to be posted on Goanet! Furthermore I find Goveia's usual style of 'talking down' to people offensive. His style of writing only provokes - could the administrators kindly note that it is not in order to allow such posts here. > Mario responds: > If my detailed comments were simply right wing propaganda then either Gabe or Miguel should be able to rebut my comments with facts of their own. Neither have been able to do so. > There was no need for Miguel to insert left wing propaganda in a post on Goa. When this happens it becomes necessary to set the record straight. Unless one agrees with left wing propaganda. > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment
On 01/10/06, Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario observes: > > > Miguel, perhaps it is you who needs to keep Mark > Twain's admonition in mind at all times, to avoid > using inappropriate examples to make possibly > appropriate points:-)) > > > Perhaps you are unaware that it is Hezbollah, along > with Hamas, Syria and Iran, that have not only > publicly stated as their goal the ELIMINATION of > Israel, but have failed not for any lack of trying > since 1948 along with several other Arab states that > have since given up after repeatedly having their > behinds kicked. RESPONSE: Miguel mentioned in passing about Hezbollah.the main crux of his post was about Goa releated issues. The screed in reply, by Goveia is right wing propaganda and has no right to be posted on Goanet! Furthermore I find Goveia's usual style of 'talking down' to people offensive. His style of writing only provokes - could the administrators kindly note that it is not in order to allow such posts here. Thank you in advance. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment
--- Miguel Braganza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Some time back the Hizbollah in Lebanon kidnapped > two Israeli soldiers. The Israeli government set > its military might against the Hizbollah and > Lebanon. It killed thousands of innocent Lebanese > civilians, destroyed towns and residential houses > and lost a 168 soldiers of its own in the effort to > find the two soldiers. Does it make sense to lose > 168 persons in search of two? Does it make sense > to kill thousands of unconnected persons to find > just two persons? To the Israeli Prime Minister, it > does. It makes sense even when they did not find > the two soldiers for whom they were supposed to be > searching for. As long as one does not get killed in > the process, the death of anyone else makes sense. > It is for this reason that Mark Twain once > wrote, "Man is the only animal that blushes or needs > to." Such is our vanity and stupidity. > > The cause of action and the action need to have some > proportion. It is a matter of scale. > Mario observes: > Miguel, perhaps it is you who needs to keep Mark Twain's admonition in mind at all times, to avoid using inappropriate examples to make possibly appropriate points:-)) > Perhaps you are unaware that it is Hezbollah, along with Hamas, Syria and Iran, that have not only publicly stated as their goal the ELIMINATION of Israel, but have failed not for any lack of trying since 1948 along with several other Arab states that have since given up after repeatedly having their behinds kicked. > Perhaps you are also unaware that Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 as part of a UN brokered "land for peace" deal called UN resolution 1701, which also required Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah and prevent attacks on Israel from it's territory. > If several parties had not only threatened me with extinction but had repeatedly tried to do so, common sense would dictate that they had given up all expectations of any "proportional" response from my side. With this background, why would I even wait for their next lethal attack, as Israel did? I would feel free to attack them any time I felt the need to do so. > What "matter of scale" can you possibly be looking for from someone targeted for elimination? > Do you even know that the terrorists have demanded the release of thousands of their own people in return for the two soldiers? Obviously they do not share your sense of proportion or scale. > Secondly, when dealing with a terrorist organization like Hezbollah, who even Amnesty International has accused of hiding among and behind innocent civilians, how could someone like you know who was a terrorist and who was a civilian in the fog of battle? Did it even occur to you that every dead terrorist can immediately be transformed into a "civilian" depending who is doing the reporting. > Thirdly, you failed to make ANY mention above of the thousands of Katyusha rockets that were randomly fired at Israeli villages and towns before and during the conflict, targeting innocent Israeli civilians. I wonder why you left this out? > In the conflict you misrepresent with considerable bias, the Israelies were not simply trying to recover the two soldiers. They were trying to degrade or destroy Hezbollah's ability to continue to attack them. With the Lebanese and UN forces now in south Lebanon, they succeeded to some extent. > I guess, as long as one is writing from the safety of some distance from this conflict, and is not being targeted for extinction for some 58 years now, one can continue to pontificate and twist what is going on and make inappropriate moral equivalences about proportionate responses to one's hearts content. > However, since the terrorists have been active in India recently, I hope you or anyone you know are not in the vicinity the next time they decide to blow up some trains, or buses, or, God forbid, a church next time instead of a mosque. > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] KONKAN CURRY: Crime and Punishment
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Crime and Punishment. Sometime back, half a dozen Gaur or Wild Bulls were electrocuted in Sanguem taluka. The forest Department swung into action. So did the Goa Police. There were arrests and investigations, including custodial interrogation of the accused. How could the fence be electrified with 230V power connection when it is legal only to use battery power of low voltage to give only a mild shock to the animals without causing mortality of even a field rat? Animal rights activists and protectors of public morality went to town about the cruelty to the poor animals that happen to be Goa's "State Animal." Contrast that with what some feel about the recent electrocution of three young boys in their twenties and a Tiger Prawn farm in Siolim. Wrote one educated, Net-savvy person, "God's way of punishing offenders. Quick justice." The three boys, after everything is said and done, did go to steal their neighbour's prawns. So were their electrocution deaths 'Divine Retribution' or criminal intent of the owner of the farm? Fortunately the owner of the farm and the three victims belonged to the same village, community and perhaps even the caste. If not there could have been a riot. Perhaps, there should have been a riot anyway. Who takes notice of such incidents otherwise? In a few days time , even the police will not be interested in investigating this matter regarding a petty crime of stealing a few prawns. The Shrimp Farm owner will be wealthy enough to aid the amnesia. The dice is loaded against the dead. Some time back the Hizbollah in Lebanon kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. The Israeli government set its military might against the Hizbollah and Lebanon. It killed thousands of innocent Lebanese civilians, destroyed towns and residential houses and lost a 168 soldiers of its own in the effort to find the two soldiers. Does it make sense to lose 168 persons in search of two? Does it make sense to kill thousands of unconnected persons to find just two persons? To the Israeli Prime Minister, it does. It makes sense even when they did not find the two soldiers for whom they were supposed to be searching for. As long as one does not get killed in the process, the death of anyone else makes sense. It is for this reason that Mark Twain once wrote, "Man is the only animal that blushes.or needs to." Such is our vanity and stupidity. The cause of action and the action need to have some proportion. It is a matter of scale. Like Manu Sharma is alleged to have done, one cannot shoot to kill because one feels that he has been insulted. One cannot put the lives of many persons at risk of death because someone is stealing his tiger prawns. It is stupid enough that the Indian military machine risks the lives of many to protect a piece of ice called Siachin and that both, India and Pakistan, claim victory at Kargil. Is killing young men in the prime of their lives to prove one's point, a Victory of nay kind? Is killing of three young men to protect one's prawns any different? Wrote another Goan, "Well, when some people don't have money they rob from the bank, pickpocket, etc. But robbing prawns? For what? It is such a petty crime? Unbelievable.." It is equally unbelievable that one would kill men to protect prawns. Contrast this again with the news item in the local newspapers, "Goa's Rajya Sabha member, Mr Shantaram Naik, today appealed to the Union Minister of Water Resources, Mr Saif-Ud-Din Soz, to immediately direct Karnataka to refrain from undertaking any project that would divert water from the Mhadei basis to the Malapraba basin." We are not talking about a tonne of prawns or loss of biodiversity alone. The Mhadei river water diversion may well mean that there will be no water to drink, let alone have bath, in the entire North Goa from the month of February each year. The Goa Government is happy with making a telephone call or sending a FAX message to the centre. Another newspaper put it succinctly, "Goa's lethargic attitude in putting forth its case regarding the disputed Kalsa-Bhandura Water Diversion project before the Supreme Court could well have delighted the Karnataka government. The Karnataka government had already announced its intention to lay the foundation stone for the project on Friday, while the Goa government had pinned its hopes on a petition filed in the Supreme Court, which was to come up for
