Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
Dear friends, In order to clarify the situation in my own mind vis a vis Fr. Mousinho's claim, I had asked Dr. Ferdinando certain straightforward questions. I had asked: (1) How many Jesuit schools and Convents were there in the entire territory of Goa during the Portuguese days? (2) How many candidates did they together send up for the SSC examination? And what fraction did this number constitute of the total number of candidates from Goa? (3) What was the SSC class designated as in these schools (VII or XI)? (4) Did Dr. Ferdinando himself have classmates in SSC who had earlier completed their primary in Portuguese before joining Loyola in the V / VI / VII standard? And I had also stated my experiences which prompted me to ask all these questions. In reply, the good doctor writes: I had a few classmates in Loyola of the lowest strata of economical status who used to come to school walking a couple of miles, bring lunch in a ?marmite? (?buthi? they called it in Concanim) composed of just cooked rice,raw ground chillie massala (mirem), and a piece of dry fish; similar to what labourers used to carry to the fields. So nobody was denied education of their choice. If Mr. Borges attended Portuguese 'Escola Primaria he should be the one to know the reason why and not cast doubts on the then education system. Does this answer even one of my questions? Did I ask about the economic status of students that attended Loyola, their mode of transport, what they ate for lunch? And, pray, what bearing does all this have on Fr. Mousinho's claim, or on the denial or otherwise of the education of their choice, a question I had not raised at all? Did I cast doubts on the then education system? Therefore I beseech the knowledgeable doctor to answer my questions to the point, and not beat about the bush. From the information that Fredrick Noronha has put forth, it appears that there were about a dozen schools in the whole of GOA which provided instruction in English right from the beginning. These would constitute a drop in the ocean when we take into consideration the number of Escola Primarias, Parochial schools conducted by the Choir Master (mestre) of the respective church and those conducted in their houses (or 'vaddo' chapel) by private individuals. Again, those English medium schools also admitted mid-stream other students who had left the Portuguese stream at various stages. Consequently, the students they sent up for the SSC examination were not all direct entrants to the English stream. Compared to the number of Portuguese medium primary schools as stated above, there were hardly any Lyceum schools in the villages, not more than a dozen in entire Goa. So where did all those Portuguese Primary students go to pursue their education further? Obviously the English medium high schools, of which there was at least one for a cluster of villages on an average in the Salcete, Ilhas and Bardez talukas where the Catholic population was predominant. This should give us an idea of the extent to which Fr. Mousinho's statement is a LIE. Coming to Dr. Ferdinando's claim that during the Portuguese era Parents did have their choice it is obvious that they did not. This is not to say that they were deliberately denied a choice, but that the prevalent situation ensured that they had no choice. For instance, my parents could not have sent me to a Marathi or English medium school, even if they so desired, for the simple reason that there was no such school nearby. So I was sent to the nearest private Portuguese school two kilometres away; and we walked to go to school twice a day (in other words, it was a full-day school in two sessions). My relatives in Canacona could not send their children to a Portuguese or English school for the same reason; they studied Marathi up to the Sixth(!) before they (the boys) were old enough to trudge to the nearest Portuguese school. With this I shall await Dr. Ferdinando's response. Mog asum. Sebastian Borges On 27 Mar 2011 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o drferdina...@hotmail.com wrote: Fr. Mousinho wrote on ?O Heraldo? : ?During the Portuguese era, Christians did primary education in Portuguese and switched over to English in Std V. Hindus did primary studies in Marathi, switched over to Portuguese and then to English. Neither Christians nor Hindus suffered in the switch-over: both acquired proficiency in English after the switch-over.? My last post a reply to Sebastian Borges? post was just to enlighten him that the statement made by Fr. Mousinho was just a blatant LIE. It would be incorrect to state that Fr. Mousinho is wrong, as this was a deliberate LIE. Do not expect anyone to believe that Fr. Mousinho was ignorant about these facts and believed what he stated to the press. Mr. Sebastian Borges could get answers to his questions if he could only reason out what was the population of Goa prior to 1961, and how many people
Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
Dear friends, I must thank Dr. Ferdinando for eradicating my ignorance. I would crave his indulgence to answer a few more questions so that my ignorance is completely dissipated. I hope the good doctor will oblige; for this kind act he will earn my eternal gratitude. He says, All Jesuit Schools and Convents in Goa had their primary as well as full education up to S.S.C in English. I have in fact studied in Fatima Convent in Margao, in the Baby Class, Junior Class and Senior Class. Now, (1) How many “Jesuit schools and Convents” were there in the entire territory of Goa during the Portuguese days? (2) How many candidates did they together send up for the SSC examination? And what fraction did this number constitute of the total number of candidates from Goa? (3) What was the SSC class designated as in these schools (VII or XI)? (4) Did Dr. Ferdinando himself have classmates in SSC who had earlier completed their primary in Portuguese before joining Loyola in the V / VI / VII standard? Answers to these will go a long way in determining whether Fr. Mousinho was entirely wrong or to what extent. My own recollection is this: Jesuit schools and Convents were very few and restricted to towns. But Portuguese Primary schools (Government as well as Private / Parochial) existed in almost every village at least in Salcete, Ilhas and Bardez; Catholic students attended these, while Hindus attended Marathi schools (up to IV standard) before joining Portuguese schools for Primeiro and Segundo grau; however, Lyceum classes were not available in the villages. The other talukas did not have as many Portuguese schools, but neither did they have any Jesuit schools / Convents; hence even Catholic children studied in Marathi schools, before joining English high schools. Again, English high schools were widespread in the villages all over Goa (SSC class was designated std. VII, because a Primeiro grau pass student was admitted into the Std. I which was equivalent to Std. V of the eleven-year school course); their contribution to the SSC candidate strength in any year was as high as 70 percent if not more. I know at least one gentleman from Margao who joined Loyola after completing his Segundo grau and passed SSC in 1958 (presently, he lives in Mumbai). I also know a classmate of mine who studied in Fatima after completing her Primeiro grau, and joined my English high school in the pre-SSC class. In other words, not all candidates sent up by these Jesuit schools / Convents were direct students into the English Baby class. This ignoramus humbly awaits Dr. Ferdinando's brilliant glow to enlighten his dark path. Sebastian Borges On 27 Mar 2011 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o drferdina...@hotmail.com wrote: Normally I would have not responded to such ignorant questions. A person who claims to have done ?Segundo Grau? and must be almost 60 years old by now if not older, and still is unaware of the schools that imparted primary education in English during the erstwhile regime must most probably have living with no contact of Goa all these past 50 years. But I am replying to prove Fr. Mousinho wrong. All Jesuit Schools and Convents in Goa had their primary as well as full education up to S.S.C in English. I have in fact studied in Fatima Convent in Margao, in the Baby Class, Junior Class and Senior Class. And the nuns liked me so much that they even allowed me to do Standard I in Fatima Convent,although they didn?t allow boys to continue in the Convent from Std. I onwards. I later joined Loyola HS along with my brother. Portuguese language was just one subject. Later it was made compulsory for students to pass 'Primeiro Grau', ie. about when I was in the Forth or Fifth Standard. I do hope Mr. Borges remembers this and not ask me the same question again. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o. Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
Prof Borges, You're going round in circles and raising new issues... A number of English medium schools celebrated their 50th anniversaries in the 1990s. Among these were (please correct me if wrong): St Britto's Mapusa, Loyola's Margao, St Mary's Mapusa, Lourdes Convent (Saligao, probably a bit older). I don't know personally about the AC-run schools in Margao. Mater Dei is a 100 year old institution and you can check with Victor Rangel Ribeiro, an octogenarian who wrote about his memories at that school when he was about five years of age. Here is Domnic's story of Sacred Heart Parra [http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg68373.html] though someone could fill us in about the sections its conducted (primary, middle, secondary?) and the medium. I think it was St Joseph's Arpora which was the pioneer of English education in Goa, over a century old, which gave Bardez a headstart in migrating to the outside world, especially to the English-speaking world (Africa, Gulf etc). FN Frederick Noronha :: +91-9822122436 :: +91-832-2409490 On 27 March 2011 11:18, Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear friends, I must thank Dr. Ferdinando for eradicating my ignorance. I would crave his indulgence to answer a few more questions so that my ignorance is completely dissipated. I hope the good doctor will oblige; for this kind act he will earn my eternal gratitude. He says, All Jesuit Schools and Convents in Goa had their primary as well as full education up to S.S.C in English. I have in fact studied in Fatima Convent in Margao, in the Baby Class, Junior Class and Senior Class. Now, (1) How many “Jesuit schools and Convents” were there in the entire territory of Goa during the Portuguese days? (2) How many candidates did they together send up for the SSC examination? And what fraction did this number constitute of the total number of candidates from Goa? (3) What was the SSC class designated as in these schools (VII or XI)? (4) Did Dr. Ferdinando himself have classmates in SSC who had earlier completed their primary in Portuguese before joining Loyola in the V / VI / VII standard? Answers to these will go a long way in determining whether Fr. Mousinho was entirely wrong or to what extent. My own recollection is this: Jesuit schools and Convents were very few and restricted to towns. But Portuguese Primary schools (Government as well as Private / Parochial) existed in almost every village at least in Salcete, Ilhas and Bardez; Catholic students attended these, while Hindus attended Marathi schools (up to IV standard) before joining Portuguese schools for Primeiro and Segundo grau; however, Lyceum classes were not available in the villages. The other talukas did not have as many Portuguese schools, but neither did they have any Jesuit schools / Convents; hence even Catholic children studied in Marathi schools, before joining English high schools. Again, English high schools were widespread in the villages all over Goa (SSC class was designated std. VII, because a Primeiro grau pass student was admitted into the Std. I which was equivalent to Std. V of the eleven-year school course); their contribution to the SSC candidate strength in any year was as high as 70 percent if not more. I know at least one gentleman from Margao who joined Loyola after completing his Segundo grau and passed SSC in 1958 (presently, he lives in Mumbai). I also know a classmate of mine who studied in Fatima after completing her Primeiro grau, and joined my English high school in the pre-SSC class. In other words, not all candidates sent up by these Jesuit schools / Convents were direct students into the English Baby class. This ignoramus humbly awaits Dr. Ferdinando's brilliant glow to enlighten his dark path.
Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
Frederick Noronha wrote: Prof Borges, You're going round in circles and raising new issues... COMMENT: Ditto. ps: A number of English medium primary girls' schools also allowed (I am advised) boys to classes. I believe the Holy Cross in Bastora was (another) one of them. jc
Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
Dear friens. On 25 Mar 2011 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o drferdina...@hotmail.com wrote: It is a blatant LIE to state that during the Portuguese era, Christians did primary education in Portuguese. There are schools and convents still existing in Goa which imparted primary education in English, and Catholics, Hindus as well as Muslims attended them. Those who did in Portuguese, continued in Lyceum in the Portuguese language. Since my experience of Primqary education matches that of Fr. Mousinho, I would request Dr. Falcao to give the names of the schools which imparted primary education in English during the 1950's when he himself was a primary student. I myself did my primary in Portuguese up to Segundo grau and continued in the English medium in my neighbourhood high school; I did not go to Lyceum. Sebastian Borges Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:33:33 -0700 Sebastian Borges; s_m_borges at yahoo.com wrote : Since my experience of Primqary education matches that of Fr. Mousinho, I would request Dr. Falcao to give the names of the schools which imparted primary education in English during the 1950's when he himself was a primary student. I myself did my primary in Portuguese up to Segundo grau and continued in the English medium in my neighbourhood high school; I did not go to Lyceum. Sebastian Borges. RESPONSE : Normally I would have not responded to such ignorant questions. A person who claims to have done ‘Segundo Grau” and must be almost 60 years old by now if not older, and still is unaware of the schools that imparted primary education in English during the erstwhile regime must most probably have living with no contact of Goa all these past 50 years. But I am replying to prove Fr. Mousinho wrong. All Jesuit Schools and Convents in Goa had their primary as well as full education up to S.S.C in English. I have in fact studied in Fatima Convent in Margao, in the Baby Class, Junior Class and Senior Class. And the nuns liked me so much that they even allowed me to do Standard I in Fatima Convent, although they didn’t allow boys to continue in the Convent from Std. I onwards. I later joined Loyola HS along with my brother. Portuguese language was just one subject. Later it was made compulsory for students to pass 'Primeiro Grau', ie. about when I was in the Forth or Fifth Standard. I do hope Mr. Borges remembers this and not ask me the same question again. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
[Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide http://oheraldo.in/news/Local%20News/Konkani-should-be-the-primary-school-medium/46753.html This Fr. Mousihno is accustomed to talking rubbish. Infact an Indian fanatic. A couple of times he has written on Herald against Goans like “Hangover of servility” on 29/9/09, etc. The migrant editors entertain such fanatism by Goans against Goans. He has the company of another Fr. Jaime Couto who writes Konkani articles in Devnagri script on ‘Grace News’; a monthly bulletin of Grace Church Margao. 90 percent of Grace Church parishioners will not know to read Konkani in that script. Coming back to this article, I would like to ask Fr. Mousinho if he knows the meaning of mother tongue. What pedagogical science says is to be understood correctly and not to be distorted. Primary education should be in the language a child speaks at home since young. Secondly, it is also proved in science that young children pick up new languages easily as compared to a child grown older. Fr. Mousinho always harped that Portuguese were dictators; so now in democracy if the people want primary education in English, why is he invoking God to avert it? Does he have any responsibility toward the future of our children? Maybe he too like Shashikala want Goans to remain as dropouts of schools or be a graduate and unable to draft a letter in correct English. It is a blatant LIE to state that during the Portuguese era, Christians did primary education in Portuguese. There are schools and convents still existing in Goa which imparted primary education in English, and Catholics, Hindus as well as Muslims attended them. Those who did in Portuguese, continued in Lyceum in the Portuguese language. The love for Goa’s identity Fr. Mousinho is talking of is a distorted one. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão re: Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide http://oheraldo.in/news/Local%20News/Konkani-should-be-the-primary-school-medium/46753.html [1] 90 percent of Grace Church parishioners will not know to read Konkani in that (Devanagri) script. [2] I would like to ask Fr. Mousinho if he knows the meaning of mother tongue. [3] Fr. Mousinho always harped that Portuguese were dictators; so now in democracy if the people want primary education in English, why is he invoking God to avert it? [4] Does he have any responsibility toward the future of our children? [5] The love for Goa’s identity Fr. Mousinho is talking of is a distorted one. COMMENT: I have nothing significant to add to what Dr. Falcao has written (and I have excerpted above) except the following: a: I read and write in Devanagri. b: I enjoy speaking and hearing good Marathi. c: What is being 'sold' as Konkani by these chaps is (to me, at least) an atrocious sounding nasal version of Marathi) (You hear it at many construction sites in Poona). d: I know at least one prominent Devanagri-only-Konkani proponent from Goa who, I KNOW, does NOT have a clue of the Devanagri script. e: The S-Konkani sermaos in Goa are jarring to those of us who understand Good Marathi. One tunes them out as soon as these 'uncomfortable' priests open their mouths and READ. f: I cannot speak for the other parishioners.though I believe that Dr. Falcao is correct. See anybody standing in line to buy Gulab? I did not think so. g: I would have sat and listened to Fr. Mousinho de Ataide if he had simultaneously advised me what medium of education he advocated for his children. h: Like I advise those without wives (one wife at a time please) NOT to preach family planning to those with wives (again, one at a time), I suggest to those without children, Please do not advise the rest about the medium of instruction for their own children. i: Remember Fr. Mousinho de Ataide, the world is bringing down dictators. jc
Re: [Goanet] Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide
It is also better to know that Fr. Jaime Couto is known to transliterate Konknni articles of Romi script into Devnagari of people who dont know Devnagari 'barakaddi' and print them in 'Dalgadacho Sondex' to impress that catholics too write in Devnagari script. Padrin Devak fottounk zait, aple porjek fottounk zata? Regarding Fr. Mousinho Ataide, it is high time that he should understand that a priest of his calibre is being used to meet their ends by Devnagari fanatics. Jose Fernandes 2011/3/24 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão drferdina...@hotmail.com Konkani should be the primary school medium - by F. Mousinho de Ataide http://oheraldo.in/news/Local%20News/Konkani-should-be-the-primary-school-medium/46753.html This Fr. Mousihno is accustomed to talking rubbish. Infact an Indian fanatic. A couple of times he has written on Herald against Goans like “Hangover of servility” on 29/9/09, etc. The migrant editors entertain such fanatism by Goans against Goans. He has the company of another Fr. Jaime Couto who writes Konkani articles in Devnagri script on ‘Grace News’; a monthly bulletin of Grace Church Margao. 90 percent of Grace Church parishioners will not know to read Konkani in that script. Coming back to this article, I would like to ask Fr. Mousinho if he knows the meaning of mother tongue. What pedagogical science says is to be understood correctly and not to be distorted. Primary education should be in the language a child speaks at home since young. Secondly, it is also proved in science that young children pick up new languages easily as compared to a child grown older. Fr. Mousinho always harped that Portuguese were dictators; so now in democracy if the people want primary education in English, why is he invoking God to avert it? Does he have any responsibility toward the future of our children? Maybe he too like Shashikala want Goans to remain as dropouts of schools or be a graduate and unable to draft a letter in correct English. It is a blatant LIE to state that during the Portuguese era, Christians did primary education in Portuguese. There are schools and convents still existing in Goa which imparted primary education in English, and Catholics, Hindus as well as Muslims attended them. Those who did in Portuguese, continued in Lyceum in the Portuguese language. The love for Goa’s identity Fr. Mousinho is talking of is a distorted one. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
