[Goanet] MOI- will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear Shri Noronha, You have made some important points in your reply to my post. I feel it is necessary that I reply. My responses follow your statements. * "Catholic-dominated" is a reflection of a certain disdain for diversity. Response: That Goanet is catholic dominated is a statement of fact.You are much closer to Goanet being one of the Administrators and Moderators. So, please answer the following questions: What is the religion of the owner of goanet? What percentage of the moderators are catholic? What percentage of contributors to Goanet are catholic? Why are Hindu contributors who try to contribute regularly driven out? e.g. Anand Virgincar, Chinmay Bhandare. Why are secular catholics such as Mario Goveia driven out from Goanet? Why are people like Carmo(I believe that is his name) who supported Parrikar and the BJP pilloried on this forum? If you sincerely and accurately answer these questions, you will realise the folly of your argument.I have no disdain for diversity of religion, gender or thought. (By the same logic, would you define Goa as "Hindu-dominated"? Never mind the fact that treating religious communities as monoliths is self-delusionary at best or an attempt at deliberately creating confusion in the debate.) Response: Goa is not Hindu dominated although I do believe that if Goanet was read by more and more Hindus, then it is possible that Goa will become a Hindu dominated state.That would be a very sad day for me and many other like minded Hindus. At present Goa is not, for the following reasons. Goa has roughly 68% Hindus, 31% catholics and 1% Muslims, sikhs etc. Yet, Goa has had six Hindu and five Catholic chief ministers, Goa has had two or three catholic, at least three sikh, two muslim Governors Goa has had a long serving Muslim as cabinet minister. There have been catholics elected to GLA from Hindu dominated constituencies such as Ponda (Joildo Aguiar). You would find it difficult to find a Hindu or a Muslim elected from a constituency where the catholics have a majority. If there is one, I will stand corrected. There have been two catholic Deans of Goa Medical College. Only Goan to be the Chief Secretary and Head of Govt service, J C Almeida is a catholic. One could go on and on. If you consider these facts, would you call Goa Hindu-dominated? My point is that election once in five years, fought on polarised lines, are not the best indicator of what the citizenry wants. Everyone is voting with their feet, when they go to English-medium schools. For politicians to stake the future of the State and rabble rouse over this is understandable. But for an educated person, to lend justification to this thinking? As I pointed in my previous post, this just shows your disdain for democracy and it does not surprise me. Did you feel the same when you were a proud student (I guess) of Loyola's Margao [http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg23390.html] Or do you feel that only that lesser plebians deserve no access to an English education? Response. Just a small correction first.I was never a student of Loyola. I am a proud ex-student of Wagle High School, Mangeshi. Incidentally, this school was built from the generous donation by Wagle - an English medium secondary school founded by a Marathi speaking Maharashtrian. I did my education with Marathi as MOI for the first seven years and then Joined Wagle High School where MOI was English. I believe I had the best in education that Goa had to offer. This option or for those who love English as MOI, the choice of changing to English medium after just four years of primary education, is available to all the Goan students and I do my bit to keep it that way. The false propaganda that somehow English secondary education is only available to Pariikar's or Shashikala Kakodkar's children is just that, FALSE. As for your last query, the attempt to banish English from Goa's primary education is a gift from both writers in our regional languages (who believe the best way to promote a language is to push it down the throat of a reluctant populace) and also the PDF khidchi, with our beloved "Tayee" Shashikala Kakodkar as education minister, and a whole lot of honourable others (Churchill Alemao, Luis Proto Barbosa, etc) making use of their brief stint in power to feather their own nests. You will find one interpretation here: Response: Bhausaheb Bandodkar and Shashikala Kakodkar were strong supporters of Marathi and still had the wisdom and foresight to make education in English medium available to all the children in Goa. When Goa was liberated, my father had to employ a teacher to teach just three children from my village to teach us. Yet within three years, we had teachers appointed by the government who taught us in temple halls, rooms in private houses etc. Your attempt to rope in Barbosa is interesting and I would like to know more about his role.Churchill alemao and education is a hilarious thought. On the
[Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
This was reported in the Herald today. Anil Desai BBSM demands govt’s dismissal for violating High Court order BBSM demands govt’s dismissal for violating High Court order TEAM HERALD teamher...@herald-goa.com PANJIM: Bharatiya Bhasha Suraksha Manch (BBSM) Tuesday mounted an attack on State Government, demanding its dismissal for violating High Court order, on Medium of Instruction (MoI) issue. BBSM also demanded to cancel the recognition of 140 aided schools, which opted for English as the medium, despite Court order, which had directed government to put on hold the implementation of MoI circular. Manch members were addressing a press conference following the contempt petition filed by Pandurang Nadkarni and three other parents claiming that despite court order several schools had opted for English as MoI and State Government has also given grants to these schools. Bombay High Court at Goa, on Monday, issued notices to Chief Secretary Sanjay Srivastava, Education Secretary V P Rao, Director Education Celsa Pinto and Deputy Director Anil Pawar asking for explanation. The Manch Tuesday said that government and school managements are subject to contempt of court. “This is a deliberate contempt of court,” BBSM member Adv Uday Bhembre said demanding immediate dismissal of Government and action against all 140 school managements. Bhembre said that BBSM, soon after Courts interim order (in July), had observed that several schools are switching to English and also applying for grants. “Later in September, BBSM delegation met education director urging her to investigate. The Manch was assured that action will be initiated against all those, who found violating, law,” he said. Bhembre said that names of all 140 schools have been submitted to the Court. BBSM which is opposing against English as MoI yesterday resolved to make enough efforts to change the government for the forthcoming elections. “We will make sure that all the political leaders, who demanded change in MoI, wont get elected at coming elections,” Bhembre said adding “it’s a communal government satisfying needs of particular section of community”. --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
[Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Frederick Noronha wrote: This is really where all that contempt for neo-learners of English and "foreign languages" lead us to... willy-nilly. FN RESPONSE: Frederick I have seen Palestinian-Israel ceasefires last a lot longer than the one you declared in your last post :-) Having said that, I fully understand your indignation at Anil Desai's post. To corrupt my argument with his usual saffroni masala and tumeric paste is not a new trick. For the record, I fully support the Goan Catholic's desire to learn in the English medium. My only point is that learning must be robust and aided in every respect by the government and not left to the faulty methods of aging grandparents or nannies. Best, Selma --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
[Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
In response my new thread on MOI, Selma Carvalho wrote the folloowing: "Having said that, I fully understand your indignation at Anil Desai's post. To corrupt my argument with his usual saffroni masala and tumeric paste?is not a new trick." Dear Ms Carvalho, I have news for you. THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU. You have demonstrated your disdain for Hindus, on this forum, before and therefore I am not surprised that you see Saffron in my one line post. I did not corrupt your stupid arguments on English simply because it is better to leave you to make a fool of yourself. My point was on the issue of MOI and in the past you did suggest that the decision of Kangress government in Goa was democratic. I suggest to you that one way of making that decision democratic would be to put it in the party manifesto for the next elections in Goa. We would all then know if a majority of Goans support this idea. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Or should I ask Eduardo Faleiro to donate a few thousand pounds for you to organise another global goans 'fest' to discuss this further? No corruption there, agree? Anil Desai --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
[Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear all, In response to my post, Frederick Noronha, otherwise known as Admin Noronha wrote the following: (1) It is not a "Goan Catholic" desire. The desire is near universal, and widely seen all over Goa, regardless of religion or class and caste, not excluding the Anil Desais. In another post on the same subject, he wrote: Doctor, Are you suggesting that such issues are best sorted out by the tyranny of the majority? He further asked probably the most relevant question: Anyway, even if we accept this questionable logic, what is a good definition of judging what is "democratic"? That 99% of students choose to study through the English-medium from Standard V (middle school, secondary school, higher secondary, college, university) in all and every part of Goa today? Response: Dear Shri Noronha, First of all, I thank you for your gentlemanly response to a serious point that I made refraining from the usual BJP, saffron references that are good to score amongst atheist catholics and other pseudo-secular( a term invented by Advani, by the way) contributors to this catholic dominated forum. Your first two statements show the problem with your logic.In the first post you say that the support for English is near universal and yet in the second post you ask whether such issues are best sorted by the tyranny of the majority. Can you see the problem in this? As a communist, your reference to democracy as tyranny of the majority is understandable.. You would rather have the decision of a 'politburo' than democratic support of majority of the citizens voting at an election. By the way can you inform us all as to which government decided that Goan children should have primary education in a local language and secondary education in English? Was it Kangress? Was it UGP, UGDP, SG? Anil Desai --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI- will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear Dr Desai, I like the way you marshalled your facts to lead upto a certain point. I would still think your labelling some institutions as "Catholic dominated" and others as "not Hindu dominated" does indeed betray bias. Why does the average Goan (and the highly educated Goan too) continue to think in the paradigm of the 1960s or worse still, the sixteenth century? Personally, I think that prioritising a religious identity over all other identities we possess (gender, class, race, caste, language, skin colour, blood group etc) is part of the identity of communalism. And, of course, we can selectively pick and choose facts to make our case, but I would prefer not to stray into that game. As the election 'vaaro' hots up for 2012, I guess we can only expect more of this to come our way, both at Ground Zero in Goa and in cyberspace! FN On 4 December 2011 15:55, anil desai wrote: > That Goanet is catholic dominated is a statement of fact.You are much > closer to Goanet being one of the Administrators and Moderators. So, please > answer the following questions: > What is the religion of the owner of goanet? > What percentage of the moderators are catholic? > What percentage of contributors to Goanet are catholic? > Why are Hindu contributors who try to contribute regularly driven out? e.g. > Anand Virgincar, Chinmay Bhandare. > Why are secular catholics such as Mario Goveia driven out from Goanet? > Why are people like Carmo(I believe that is his name) who supported > Parrikar and the BJP pilloried on this forum? --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
This is really where all that contempt for neo-learners of English and "foreign languages" lead us to... willy-nilly. FN On 30 November 2011 13:00, anil desai wrote: > This was reported in the Herald today. > Anil Desai > BBSM demands govt’s dismissal for violating High Court order > BBSM demands govt’s dismissal for violating High Court order > TEAM HERALD > teamher...@herald-goa.com > PANJIM: Bharatiya Bhasha Suraksha Manch (BBSM) Tuesday mounted an attack on > State Government, demanding its dismissal for violating High Court order, > on Medium of Instruction (MoI) issue. --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
In response to the above query from Anil Desai, I'd submit the following possible answers: I believe that Anil's Kangress should and will IF the BhojePee will include Support for the following into their manifesto: 1: Enforced Bandhs 2: Bussing of folks for contrived events 3: Compulsory education for Goan Katlicks in the Hyper-Sanskritized Awful sounding nasal dialect of Dongri Marathi aka Cocknee 4: Mandatory swadeshification of Goan Katlicks 5: Induction of a 1000 more Goa Freedom Fighters (with benefits and housing in Salcete) from among the ranks of yet to be born children of frothing out of state party workers. 6: etc --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
On 30 November 2011 16:48, Carvalho wrote: > Having said that, I fully understand your indignation at Anil Desai's post. > To corrupt my argument with his usual saffroni masala and tumeric paste > is not a new trick. > For the record, I fully support the Goan Catholic's desire to learn > in the English medium. My only point is that learning must be robust > and aided in every respect by the government and not left to the faulty > methods of aging grandparents or nannies. (1) It is not a "Goan Catholic" desire. The desire is near universal, and widely seen all over Goa, regardless of religion or class and caste, not excluding the Anil Desais. (2) From Standard V onwards, in Goa itself, education is conducted 99% through the medium of English today. The ire against primary medium education in that language is about political, if not communal, motives. (3) The State *is* "aiding in every respect" education in what Santosh calls the "foreign language" of English. The politicisation at the primary level is a post-1991 development. On what basis could anyone claim that the task is being left to "aging grandparents or nannies"? (4) Learning any language has to be a mix of one's own initiatives, support structures in the form of non-official or non-profit institutions, for-profit initiatives, and official support. We can't depend on the last alone, and if we feel this is a priority need to work on it. Some are already earning a little by teaching English or other "foreign" languages, for instance: http://www.esl-languages.com/en/adults/learn/english/goa/india/index.htm http://www.iegoa.com/ http://goa.click.in/classifieds/education-learning/1/74/language-classes.html http://www.global-english.com/travel-teach-english-in/India/ http://yellowpages.sulekha.com/goa/coaching-training/coaching-tuitions/spoken-english/539.htm http://www.asklaila.com/search/Goa/Goa%20velha/Learn%20english/?searchNearby=false&v=listing Not sure how effectively these work though... FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear Frederick, You are being a contrarian for the sake of it. This brings to mind a Konkani saying loosely translated to mean, "you can't change the tail of a dog not even if you shoot it through a cannon." I have run out of steam to debate any further. The attitude of Goans in any case can best be described by another famous Konkani saying, loosely translated as "whose father, what goes." So I end with bon noite from W. Drayton. Best, Selma --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
On 30 November 2011 22:47, anil desai wrote: > I suggest to you that one way of making that decision > democratic would be to put it in the party manifesto for the next elections > in Goa. We would all then know if a majority of Goans support this idea. Doctor, Are you suggesting that such issues are best sorted out by the tyranny of the majority? Ideally, elections could be taken as a reflection of public opinion. (By that yardstick, Congress is today still more acceptable than BJP, god forbid!) But you know the reality in Goa. Way back since the first elections in 1963, politics has been fought largely on communally-tinged lines. The MGP did it, the UGP did it (less successfully). I won't blame the BJP alone, even the Congress plays its (less-apparent, somewhat less potent, one could argue) communal games. So did the Goa Congresses, the UGDPs, and others in their own ways. The GLPs were more regionalistic, but unsucessful to build a coalition across religion and caste though they might have not shown bias on this front (other than anti-migrant bias). What it would take is some section of the media drumming up public opinion (they have already being doing so), and showing the aspiration for learning English out to be the ogre threating Goa. I think there should be scope for all points of view and aspirations in a non-majoritarian democracy. That would mean accepting English too, even if our friend Santosh dubs it a "foreign" language. (It incidentally is as "foreign" as the religion, clothes, food and furniture of a large section of Goa and its diaspora -- cutting across many more obvious divides.) Anyway, even if we accept this questionable logic, what is a good definition of judging what is "democratic"? That 99% of students choose to study through the English-medium from Standard V (middle school, secondary school, higher secondary, college, university) in all and every part of Goa today? I don't agree with your logic. FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
On 1 December 2011 00:00, Carvalho wrote: > Dear Frederick, > You are being a contrarian for the sake of it. This brings > to mind a Konkani saying loosely translated to mean, > "you can't change the tail of a dog not even if you > shoot it through a cannon." > > I have run out of steam to debate any further. The > attitude of Goans in any case can best be described > by another famous Konkani saying, loosely > translated as "whose father, what goes." > So I end with bon noite from W. Drayton. Selma, hang on! Don't quit so fast... It's not even "night" here (okay, these are relative terms)... leave aside Drayton. Anyway I need to bug you some more, as I've been very successfully doing these days: the "shot it through a cannon" bit is totally fictional or a figment of someone's imagination. As Jerry Pinto would say, you cannot translate anyhow and call it a "loose translation"... a crime I am myself often guilty of. Contrarian-ly yours, FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
To the best of my evanescing memory it goes like: Sunneachi/kutrachi xempdy kon'nea-nollint bandlear keddinch ubbi zauchinam... Dog's tail bound in a bamboo tube will never straighten out... There is an analogous saying vide a woman's tongue but woe be me to evagate to yet another verbal outpouring Chacha...in a nattering nabob vein > From: fredericknoro...@gmail.com > Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 01:24:32 +0530 > To: goanet@lists.goanet.org > Subject: Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for > English in the election manifesto? > > On 30 November 2011 22:47, anil desai wrote: > > I suggest to you that one way of making that decision > > democratic would be to put it in the party manifesto for the next elections > > in Goa. We would all then know if a majority of Goans support this idea. > > Doctor, Are you suggesting that such issues are best sorted out by the > tyranny of the majority? > > Ideally, elections could be taken as a reflection of public opinion. > (By that yardstick, Congress is today still more acceptable than BJP, > god forbid!) But you know the reality in Goa. Way back since the first > elections in 1963, politics has been fought largely on > communally-tinged lines. The MGP did it, the UGP did it (less > successfully). I won't blame the BJP alone, even the Congress plays > its (less-apparent, somewhat less potent, one could argue) communal > games. So did the Goa Congresses, the UGDPs, and others in their own > ways. The GLPs were more regionalistic, but unsucessful to build a > coalition across religion and caste though they might have not shown > bias on this front (other than anti-migrant bias). > > What it would take is some section of the media drumming up public > opinion (they have already being doing so), and showing the aspiration > for learning English out to be the ogre threating Goa. > > I think there should be scope for all points of view and aspirations > in a non-majoritarian democracy. That would mean accepting English > too, even if our friend Santosh dubs it a "foreign" language. (It > incidentally is as "foreign" as the religion, clothes, food and > furniture of a large section of Goa and its diaspora -- cutting across > many more obvious divides.) > > Anyway, even if we accept this questionable logic, what is a good > definition of judging what is "democratic"? That 99% of students > choose to study through the English-medium from Standard V (middle > school, secondary school, higher secondary, college, university) in > all and every part of Goa today? > > I don't agree with your logic. FN > > --- > >Protect Goa's natural beauty > > Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve > > Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php > > --- --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear Dr Desai, While ignoring the flame-baits and all attempts to personalise the debate, I would like point to the politics of your language. * "Pseudo-secularist" has been effectively used as a cover for communalism by the majoritarian party which is today blocking dissent space by claiming to be the "Opposition". * "Catholic-dominated" is a reflection of a certain disdain for diversity. (By the same logic, would you define Goa as "Hindu-dominated"? Never mind the fact that treating religious communities as monoliths is self-delusionary at best or an attempt at deliberately creating confusion in the debate.) My point is that election once in five years, fought on polarised lines, are not the best indicator of what the citizenry wants. Everyone is voting with their feet, when they go to English-medium schools. For politicians to stake the future of the State and rabble rouse over this is understandable. But for an educated person, to lend justification to this thinking? Did you feel the same when you were a proud student (I guess) of Loyola's Margao [http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg23390.html] Or do you feel that only that lesser plebians deserve no access to an English education? As for your last query, the attempt to banish English from Goa's primary education is a gift from both writers in our regional languages (who believe the best way to promote a language is to push it down the throat of a reluctant populace) and also the PDF khidchi, with our beloved "Tayee" Shashikala Kakodkar as education minister, and a whole lot of honourable others (Churchill Alemao, Luis Proto Barbosa, etc) making use of their brief stint in power to feather their own nests. You will find one interpretation here: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2011-April/207622.html Regards, FN Dear Shri Noronha, > > First of all, I thank you for your gentlemanly response to a serious point > that I made refraining from the usual BJP, saffron references that are good > to score amongst atheist catholics and other pseudo-secular( a term > invented by Advani, by the way) contributors to this catholic dominated > forum. > > Your first two statements show the problem with your logic.In the first > post you say that the support for English is near universal and yet in the > second post you ask whether such issues are best sorted by the tyranny of > the majority. Can you see the problem in this? > > As a communist, your reference to democracy as tyranny of the majority is > understandable.. You would rather have the decision of a 'politburo' than > democratic support of majority of the citizens voting at an election. > > By the way can you inform us all as to which government decided that Goan > children should have primary education in a local language and secondary > education in English? > Was it Kangress? Was it UGP, UGDP, SG? --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
