Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[Francis Borges]

For you Rico,
Greetings.
This is of one of my findings.
The "podd" measures 1.024 litres according to the methods I have used.
It can be used to measure rice, solam, salt, dry fish & prawns.
Now, if it is plain water, it could be taken as 1 kg. Rice works out
to be roughly 0.75 kg. So also the weight of other items will vary.
I once checked out with the Legal Metrology officials so they could
move to leagalise it, but it found no favour with them.
There are also more measures; smaller ones like ginnati, onnati, etc
which are fractions of podd and monn which is a multiple of podd.
One good source of info and pictures is the dean's palace in Quepem town.

Francis
fraxavborg at gmail.com


On 10/25/13, Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا 
wrote:



Recently, I came across a reference to a *khandi,* and was quite puzzled.
There are hardly any references online to this old style of calculating
paddy yields, field sizes and seed-inputs required for cultivation. 

Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[adriana fernandes]

How much is a PAILI ?
4 PODDs = 1 PAILI.

Ms Adriana Fernandes
adferns21 at rediffmail.com

Re: [Goanet] : Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi?‏

[Domnic Fernandes]

Dear Sebastian,
Thanks for clarifications.
Moi-mogan,
Domnic FernandesMob: 8805237604 
I think Domnicbab has mistakenly interchanged the
order of gin'nattem and an'nattem in the sequence of measures.
On consulting Dalgado I find:
Girnatti = one-eighth part of Podd. (This is
repeated by Kresens Monter.)
Odnatti = half Natti or one-fourth part of Podd.
Natti is not given; nor is Solgem. But Dessai
gives Solgem as ordi Podd. Hence, Solgem and Dalgado's Natti are synonymous.
Dalgado gives Muddi as a package of rice in hay,
but does not mention the measure of its contents. He also gives Muddo as a
large Muddi. I too have no knowledge of Muddi being used as a measure.
But Dessai gives Muddi as "bara pailio tandllanchi tonnan bandil'li pottli";
and Muddo as "solla pailianchi Muddi", and this last is traced to the
year 1290.
Hope this helps.
 
Sebastian Borges

  

[Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov,khandi

[Michael fernandes]

Hi Goanetters 
please correct me if I am
wrong.

an’nattiOld
measure equal to one-eighth of a liter or four gin’natti. (pl) an’nattio.
gin’nattiSolid measure of olden times equal to eighth part of a podd or two 
solavo or one bot’tisavo. (pl) gin’nattio.
khandi(a) Solid weight of the olden times equql
to 20 maund (mondd) (b) Solid measure of the olden times
equal to 20 kurd (kuddov) (c) Liquid measure of the olden times
equal to 20 maund (almude).(pl) khandio
kollso/kovsoLiquid measure equal to 18 bottles of 750 ml each. (pl) kollxe/kovxe
kumbhSolid
weight of the olden times equal to 20 khandi.
kuddov/kurdSolid measure of the olden times equal to 2 paili or 8 podd app 6 kgs
mondd/maund 1.equal to 40 seers/xer or 24 pounds 12 oz (according to wikipedia) 
or 15 kgs (Pinto 1994: 220). 2. Asolid weight of the olden times of warying 
weights (32 pounds for
copra, 26 pounds for sugar and bees wax, 24 pounds for onion,  garlic, iron 
etc). 3. Liquid measure of olden
times equal to 2 kollxe. (app 27 litres)
natti Solid
measure of the olden times equal to half podd
ordho pavxer equal
to 10 tola
ordhoxerequal to 40 tola
ordnatti equals
to one-fourth of podd.
paili equal
to 4 seers/xer.
pavxer equal
to 20 tola
poddOlden mode of solid measure
equal to 2 ordhipodd or 4 an’natti. (app
1.5 kilograms).
solavo/solavem Solid
measure of olden times equal to half gin’natti.
solguemSolid measure of the olden times equal to ordhipodd (app 750 grams).
xer/seerequal to eighty tola or 0. 93310 kg or 2 pound 1 oz.

map
kap’pachi danddistrickle  
 
these are the
definitions/meanings that are contained in my book ‘THE ENGLISH KONKANI
DICTIONARY A - L’ and ‘THE ENGLISH KONKANI DICTIONARY M - Z’ Roman script.
Which has been handed over by me to Delgado Konkani Akedemy along with my other
book ‘THE KONKANI SYNONYMS’ The books are under review.
 
 
MICHAEL FERNANDES.
Mog assundhi

Re: [Goanet] : Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi?

[Sebastian Borges]

I think Domnicbab has mistakenly interchanged the
order of gin'nattem and an'nattem in the sequence of measures.
On consulting Dalgado I find:
Girnatti = one-eighth part of Podd. (This is
repeated by Kresens Monter.)
Odnatti = half Natti or one-fourth part of Podd.
Natti is not given; nor is Solgem. But Dessai
gives Solgem as ordi Podd. Hence, Solgem and Dalgado's Natti are synonymous.
Dalgado gives Muddi as a package of rice in hay,
but does not mention the measure of its contents. He also gives Muddo as a
large Muddi. I too have no knowledge of Muddi being used as a measure.
But Dessai gives Muddi as "bara pailio tandllanchi tonnan bandil'li pottli";
and Muddo as "solla pailianchi Muddi", and this last is traced to the
year 1290.
Hope this helps.
 
Sebastian Borges
 
On 27 Oct 2013 Domnic Fernandes  wrote:
 
Gui'natti/gui'natem
X 4, equals 1 anna'tti (ten)
X 4, equals 1 podd' x 4, equals i paili You
guys have missed out one of the measures SOLGEM,
and I think the first two measures are
interchanged. So, the above should read
as follows: 2
(two) An?natteo equals 1 (one) gin?natti 2
(two) gin?natteo equals 1 (one) solgem2
(two) solgim equals 1 (one) podd4
(four) poddi equals 1 paili . There
is also another measure called MUDDI (a
bale) which usually contained 4 kuddov.
Rice was packed in muddieo pretty
much like bales of khajur i.e., it
was filled in woven baskets using dry leaves on
sides to avoid pilferage and
then wrapped around with dry hay and secured
tightly with sumb (coir cope). The package was widely used as a gift at weddings
and other functions. People also packed and stored
rice in muddieo.  There
were two types of paileo ? one with
metal bar fixed in line with its top, which was
fitted to a metal ring around
top of paili; it was called filsanvachi paili and
the other without. >Kortad is, of course, the Portuguese translation of the
Konkani 'katorn' that we use. In
Bardez we say: katrun map. People used
a round of piece of bamboo to level the contents
but most preferred to use a
piece of round metal pipe, which was already
available at a chul (fire place) to blow fire. Moi-mogan, Domnic
FernandesAnjuna,
Goa       
        
 
...
Sebastian Borges    

Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi (bmviega...@yahoo.com)

[Goanet Reformat]

 Where is the picture of khandi ?

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk27/4746475517

Re: [Goanet] : Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi

[Alfred de Tavares]

Prossor Bostaum Bab:

Moi Mogan ani Man'nan Tumcho nomam kortam.
Thanks for the emendations. That's precisely the help I requested for in 
compiling the list of our nearly-erstwhile weights & measures.
I have been away from Goa since 1968. That -- long absence -- plus mymounting 
ailments, along with related medications, I believe, has resulted in a 
substantial amnesiac-syndrome.
Hence, You willing, let's make a little effort & present this list as perfectly 
calibrated as we can.
Towards this purpose, I wish to invite you, Victor Hugo, Augusto & a fewother 
cognoscenti, to join me for a lunch, in Loutulim, come December at a date 
mutually suitable for the bunch.
OK? It will, indeed, be a great pleasure & we will have contributed 
somethingusefull to Goan-way-of-life in transition: Our, hardly insignificant, 
contributionto our posterity.
Yours sincerely,Chacha Alfred.
  
> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 00:29:38 -0700
> From: s_m_bor...@yahoo.com
> To: goanet@lists.goanet.org
> Subject: Re: [Goanet] :  Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi
> 
> Re: [Goanet] Subject:  Old-style
> measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi
> 
> Has chacha made a mistake or do some terms have
> different meanings in different villages?
> In my village (Velim) gin'nattem x2 = 1 an'nattem.
> Paili x 2 = 1 kuddov.  Kuddov x 20 = 1
> khanddi. Khanddi x 20 = 1 kumbh. Hence, 1 kumbh = 800 pailio. But by Chacha's
> reckoning 1 kumbh = 1600 pailio! 
> In my village the monsoon or 'Pavsalli' crop is
> called Sorodd and the dry season (irrigated) crop is Vaingonn; Chacha's terms
> are interchanged. 
> Chacha may please clarify.
> Kortad is, of course, the Portuguese translation
> of the Konkani 'katorn' that we use.
>  
> Sebastian Borges
>  On 26 Oct 2013 Alfred de Tavares  wrote:
> 
> Good... you guys are edifying our posterity in
> these weights & measures of millenia
> past. Soon our neonati generations will not know
> about this paraphernalia, essential
> to our goneby existence...&, good God forbid,
> such daily-requisite materials viz. pencils, 
> slates, erasers, chalks, blackboards,
> sharpenersPAPER may be heading towards oblivion. 
> Ousch...as our Viviana, in Cal, is bound to
> sayhow very apocalyptic...
> 
> Thus a record of pre-kilogram-littre measures,
> inalianable necessities of every-minute
> life, sketchily recorded. We had:
> 
> Gui'natti/gui'natem  X 4, equals 1 anna'tti
> (ten) X 4, equals 1 podd' x 4, equals i paili
> 
> 4 pailis equal 1 mond(h); 5 paillis equal 1
> vod'lo/dedd mond.
> 
> All these measures could be asked for 'cortad' ie
> levelled with a stave or ?sui (suien)
> ie heaped/peaked-up.
> 
> Then going higher:
> 
> 20 monds equaled 1 Khandi and 20 khandis equaled 1
> kumbh. 
> 
> These were almost always measured kortad; but
> could on occasion, depending on
> the avarice/cruelty pf the batkar (very rare)
> could be asked for in sui form.
> 
> The proportion to ammount of seed to a field
> depend on type of field/cultivation: 
> Thus, morod/terraceed fields on hillsides;
> khazan/low-lying, sub-river-level filled up 
> (dyked, Dutch-style fields. 
> 
> Khazans in turn have two types of planting:
> pausav/vaingon is the rainy season 
> crop and sorod is the dry season crop irrigated by
> respective village toyems/ponds/resevoirs
> which were filled up and used as sources of
> irrigation during dry season.
> 
> These, again man'made water storages turn out rich
> yields of tastiest fish and the daily out and
> in flow of thei waters are regulated with
> admirably efficient sluice-gates.
> 
> in our times their cash yields have crossed into
> crores at annual village comunidade auctions.
> 
> There is much detail to be filled up, which I
> intend to do. I have just outlined the bare sketch
> 
> What say Rico, JC. Sholud I turn in ove to Wikipedia,
> unless they already have it.
> 
> What, for ex I have not proportions of seed to
> various fields/crops. Will do so in December.
> 
> I use to help my Pai a good deal during the
> mirg/cultivation times, before going on to
> boarding school (LHS), colleged, etc.
> 
> I promise also detailed list of the fluid-measurs:
> Xer, pau, so on.
> 
> & the zot'ta, the plouging, the mownis,
> winowing.
> 
> I invite all informed friends to please fill in as
> details of yester-things tickle you minds.
> 
> OBS: Victor Hugo's incomparable CHITRA has an
> enviable collection of all these implements. 
> 
> A reminiscent Chacha...
> 
> -
> Sebastian Borges
  

Re: [Goanet] : Old-style measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi

[Sebastian Borges]

Re: [Goanet] Subject:  Old-style
measurements... paileo,kudov, khandi

Has chacha made a mistake or do some terms have
different meanings in different villages?
In my village (Velim) gin'nattem x2 = 1 an'nattem.
Paili x 2 = 1 kuddov.  Kuddov x 20 = 1
khanddi. Khanddi x 20 = 1 kumbh. Hence, 1 kumbh = 800 pailio. But by Chacha's
reckoning 1 kumbh = 1600 pailio! 
In my village the monsoon or 'Pavsalli' crop is
called Sorodd and the dry season (irrigated) crop is Vaingonn; Chacha's terms
are interchanged. 
Chacha may please clarify.
Kortad is, of course, the Portuguese translation
of the Konkani 'katorn' that we use.
 
Sebastian Borges
 On 26 Oct 2013 Alfred de Tavares  wrote:

Good... you guys are edifying our posterity in
these weights & measures of millenia
past. Soon our neonati generations will not know
about this paraphernalia, essential
to our goneby existence...&, good God forbid,
such daily-requisite materials viz. pencils, 
slates, erasers, chalks, blackboards,
sharpenersPAPER may be heading towards oblivion. 
Ousch...as our Viviana, in Cal, is bound to
sayhow very apocalyptic...

Thus a record of pre-kilogram-littre measures,
inalianable necessities of every-minute
life, sketchily recorded. We had:

Gui'natti/gui'natem  X 4, equals 1 anna'tti
(ten) X 4, equals 1 podd' x 4, equals i paili

4 pailis equal 1 mond(h); 5 paillis equal 1
vod'lo/dedd mond.

All these measures could be asked for 'cortad' ie
levelled with a stave or ?sui (suien)
ie heaped/peaked-up.

Then going higher:

20 monds equaled 1 Khandi and 20 khandis equaled 1
kumbh. 

These were almost always measured kortad; but
could on occasion, depending on
the avarice/cruelty pf the batkar (very rare)
could be asked for in sui form.

The proportion to ammount of seed to a field
depend on type of field/cultivation: 
Thus, morod/terraceed fields on hillsides;
khazan/low-lying, sub-river-level filled up 
(dyked, Dutch-style fields. 

Khazans in turn have two types of planting:
pausav/vaingon is the rainy season 
crop and sorod is the dry season crop irrigated by
respective village toyems/ponds/resevoirs
which were filled up and used as sources of
irrigation during dry season.

These, again man'made water storages turn out rich
yields of tastiest fish and the daily out and
in flow of thei waters are regulated with
admirably efficient sluice-gates.

in our times their cash yields have crossed into
crores at annual village comunidade auctions.

There is much detail to be filled up, which I
intend to do. I have just outlined the bare sketch

What say Rico, JC. Sholud I turn in ove to Wikipedia,
unless they already have it.

What, for ex I have not proportions of seed to
various fields/crops. Will do so in December.

I use to help my Pai a good deal during the
mirg/cultivation times, before going on to
boarding school (LHS), colleged, etc.

I promise also detailed list of the fluid-measurs:
Xer, pau, so on.

& the zot'ta, the plouging, the mownis,
winowing.

I invite all informed friends to please fill in as
details of yester-things tickle you minds.

OBS: Victor Hugo's incomparable CHITRA has an
enviable collection of all these implements. 

A reminiscent Chacha...

-
Sebastian Borges

Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا]

90 khandis, by my friend's count, would be 9000 kgs (at 90-100 kgs per
khandi). Is he wrong? Or a mixup here? FN

On 26 October 2013 00:37, eric pinto  wrote:

> Ninty khandis of paddy were delivered from Mayem every winter,
> to become free picking for a hundred and fifty odd chickens.
>


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Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[eric pinto]

I recall sacks on three bullock-carts. They filled a structure that was 
known as a 'gottho,'  which was rebuilt as a guest residence, this year.   
     Trippers welcome.    Eric.



 
 


90 khandis, by my friend's count, would be 9000 kgs (at 90-100 kgs per khandi). 
Is he wrong? Or a mixup here? FN

[Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[eric pinto]

      Babylon's  'kurro' to our kullov/kuddov, and I assumed it was 
Gabe's friends in HongKong who wrestled with 'flied lice.'
     Ninty khandis of paddy were delivered from Mayem every winter,
to become free picking for a hundred and fifty odd chickens.
    Merwyn's foxes treated themselves to a couple every week, sliding into
town down his grandmother's Siolim hill slope.
    Missed Jim at a recent mountain-top picnic: he could have skinned a 
pretty red fox, done in by a car on the Montreal freeway. He does broil
Canadians !   Don't tell him I went pomfret fishing for junior.     eric.



 

 
Old-style measurements... , kudov,   khandi
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk2/121767390/

 
 Kullov
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk2/121767391/

[Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[JoeGoaUk]

corrected link
 
Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk2/121767390/
Those days, wedding decorated cakes were of 4-5 layers
usually dressed in white crape paper. Bottom layer, the largest, was usually a 
fake one. Used one of the ‘Pail’ see abv fig 1stfrom first row.
When the time comes to cut the cake, I saw bridal couple
often attempting to poke the bottom layer not knowing it a fake wooden one.
 
 Kullov
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk2/121767391/

 others
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk56/7707032948/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk27/4746475517/

joego...@yahoo.co.uk 

for Goa & NRI related info... 
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips 
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial  1 0 8 
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc

Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[Sachin Tendulkar]

Dear Fredrick,
There is also concept of "Man" which is approximately 15 kg for dehusked 
Arecanut. I came across all these concepts often while talking to farmers. I 
would also request you to spread a word about Paddy farming through SRI 
method.


Regards,
Sachin
tendulkar1970 at gmail.com


Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from !DEA


-Original Message-
From:  Frederick FN Noronha
Subject: Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

Recently, I came across a reference to a *khandi,* and was quite puzzled.
There are hardly any references online to this old style of calculating
paddy yields, field sizes and seed-inputs required for cultivation. 

Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[P. Soprey]

Pileo.  In Cuncolim, Salcete area around 1960 I was a farmhand and we called 
Paileo.



P. Soprey
sopreyp at yahoo.com



On Thursday, October 24, 2013 3:01 PM, Frederick FN Noronha wrote:

Recently, I came across a reference to a *khandi,* and was quite puzzled.
There are hardly any references online to this old style of calculating
paddy yields, field sizes and seed-inputs required for cultivation.

A friend (who knows his farming) share with me the following details. Would
really appreciate your inputs: 

Re: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[Wendell Rodricks]

If I am not wrong there is a similar system in Punjab. But on a larger 
scale.

I heard them talk about this three weeks ago in Chandigarh

W

Sent from my iPad
Wendell Rodricks, Campal, Panjim. GOA 403001. INDIA
Off tel: +91-832-2420604, Shop tel: +91-832-2238177
Off email: rns.wend...@gmail.com


On 25-Oct-2013, at 12:22 AM,  Frederick FN Noronha wrote:


Recently, I came across a reference to a *khandi,* and was quite puzzled.
There are hardly any references online to this old style of calculating
paddy yields, field sizes and seed-inputs required for cultivation.

A friend (who knows his farming) share with me the following details. 
Would
really appreciate your inputs: 

[Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[eric pinto]

           The 'kurru' appeared in Akkad in a system that was refined 
later by Naram Sin.  It was volume based, around sixty liters.
           Both Mesopotamia and Persia lay claim to the distance measure,
'farsang,'  the length a person could walk in a day, about five miles.
I see a connection with 'forsonne' of our own Sarswat Prakrit.     eric.



 From: Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا 

To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"  
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:04 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi
 

Recently, I came across a reference to a *khandi,* and was quite puzzled.
There are hardly any references online to this old style of calculating
paddy yields, field sizes and seed-inputs required for cultivation.

A friend (who knows his farming) share with me the following details. Would
really appreciate your inputs:

A *khandi* is a measure of volume; not of weight. Strangely enough, it is
connected with land-area too, specially when it comes to cultivating paddy
in the field.

The conversion is as below:

Two pileo = One kudov
20 kudov = 1 khandi

Five kudov is approx 25 kgs (when converted into weight, but can vary,
because this is basically a measure of volume). One khandi is approx 90-100
kgs in weight, and again this depends on the variety of paddy grown, as
each can vary in thickness, husk size, weight, etc.

So to cultivate a 2000 sq.m. field, farmers would estimate, for instance,
that it would take 10 kudov of seed to plant. The 10 kudov here refers to
the seed-input required to plant the entire field (not the resultant
yield)!

If a field requiring 5 kudov to plant could give a yield of 5 khandi (a
20-fold yield), it was considered to be a very good field.

While this form of measurement might seem "unscientific" and "non-matric"
to us today, I'm sure it had its advantages in its own time. Any comments
would be appreciated. Kindly correct me if the figures above are incorrect,
or the understanding skewed. The next time someone searching for an
explanation of a *khandi*, at least they will have some discussion to go
by, online. FN


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[Goanet] Old-style measurements... paileo, kudov, khandi

[Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا]

Recently, I came across a reference to a *khandi,* and was quite puzzled.
There are hardly any references online to this old style of calculating
paddy yields, field sizes and seed-inputs required for cultivation.

A friend (who knows his farming) share with me the following details. Would
really appreciate your inputs:

A *khandi* is a measure of volume; not of weight. Strangely enough, it is
connected with land-area too, specially when it comes to cultivating paddy
in the field.

The conversion is as below:

Two pileo = One kudov
20 kudov = 1 khandi

Five kudov is approx 25 kgs (when converted into weight, but can vary,
because this is basically a measure of volume). One khandi is approx 90-100
kgs in weight, and again this depends on the variety of paddy grown, as
each can vary in thickness, husk size, weight, etc.

So to cultivate a 2000 sq.m. field, farmers would estimate, for instance,
that it would take 10 kudov of seed to plant. The 10 kudov here refers to
the seed-input required to plant the entire field (not the resultant
yield)!

If a field requiring 5 kudov to plant could give a yield of 5 khandi (a
20-fold yield), it was considered to be a very good field.

While this form of measurement might seem "unscientific" and "non-matric"
to us today, I'm sure it had its advantages in its own time. Any comments
would be appreciated. Kindly correct me if the figures above are incorrect,
or the understanding skewed. The next time someone searching for an
explanation of a *khandi*, at least they will have some discussion to go
by, online. FN


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