Re: [Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Dear Marshall, I understand well that you have stated that Jesus would be today branded a naxalite by people who do not know the difference. Even Fr.Cedric Prakash, who is struggling for the human rights of the Dalits, has been labelled a politician, communist, naxalite... As you have well expounded, there is difference between being a naxalite and being a Christian, as a transforming 'leaven' or a 'Christian revolutionary'. We have to remember the teaching of the Gospel and of the Church throughout the history. I think that you have explained it clearly. Often (useless) controversy is triggered when our statements are not well understood or are distorted... It should be clear that: 1. Theology of liberation has roots in the Gospel sayings (cf.Lk 4:16-21). That was the 'social manifesto' of Jesus himself. 2. Theology of liberation took its systematic form in Latin America. It was already at work in the evangelizing mission of Barnabe de las Casas. 3. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in his interview with Vittorio Messori, The Ratzinger Report, has given a criticism of some forms of theology of liberation, which approve of violence, Marxist ideology ( which is atheistic, and therefore is not acceptable to a Christian), class struggle, the myth of classless society... It is liberation from sin and from all its consequences, both individual and societal. 4. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and one of the authors of the document INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE THEOLOGY OF LIBERATION, approved by John Paul II, where the Church accepts the expression and the nucleus of the theology: solidarity with the poor, preferential option of the poor, love of neighbour, denunciation of injustice and sin. It criticises some forms of extremist theologies, unacceptable by Gospel criteria. Gustavo Guttierrez, the Dominican Peruvian theologian, who studied medicine and then literature, philosophy in Leuven and theology in Lyons, and worked in a parish among the poor of Peru (Lima) as a priest, ad then taught in the University of Peru, has given clear systematic insights of theology of liberation in his book, A Theology of Liberation: History, Politics, Salvation (in 1971). 5. In the Magisterium of the Church we have the following steps: a)Synods of Bishops in 1971 and 1974; after the 1974 synod, Pope Paul VI drafted the apostolic exhortation Evangelii Nuntiandi on the basis of the conclusions of the meeting: the relationship between evangelization and liberation (nn.25-39). b)Second Assembly of the Latin-American Bishops (CELAM) in Medellin, Colombia, in 1968 and Third Assembly in Puebla, Mexico in October 1978; 6. In Asia we have theologians of liberation: Tissa Balasurya, Aloysius Pieris, George Soares-Prabhu, Sebastian Kappen, Samuel Rayan, Jacob Kavunkal, Felix Wilfred, Kim Chung-Choon wrote extensively on Asian theology of liberation. 7. The Christians have to work together with other religions: Rabindranath Tagore wrote: This is my prayer to thee, my Lord — strike at the root of penury in my heart: Give me the strength never to disown the poor or bend my knee before insolent might. Similarly, Mahatma Gandhi derived inspiration from the Bhagavadgita for political action against the colonial rulers, as a religious deed. Active nonviolence for Gandhi was Satyagraha — the fight for truth. Gandhi advocated a return to the pristine past of Rama Rajya, the rule of a mythical hero, Rama, who symbolized justice, peace and equality. For this, on the one hand, he had to unite the Indians who were divided by the colonial policy of divide and rule and, on the other had to dissipate the Indian masses’ fear of the State violence, which in turn had reduced all Indians to submission. This he accomplished through the civil disobedience movement, with the inspiration of the Bhagavadgita Asian religions too advocated the liberation of humans, the Buddhist nirvana being a classic example, not to speak of the liberational elements of the Bhakti traditions in India. Hence, Asian liberation theologians advocate collaboration with other Asian religions in effecting the liberation of the poor of Asia as a common mission (See the article of Jacob Kavunkal, The Impact of Medellin and Puebla on Asian Theology (3 February 2000) in: http://www.sedos.org/english/kavunkal.htm). Regards. Fr.Ivo From the Instruction on Theology of Liberation: The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a message of freedom and a force for liberation. In recent years, this essential truth has become the object of reflection for theologians, with a new kind of attention which is itself full of promise. Liberation is first and foremost liberation from the radical slavery of sin. Its end and its goal is the freedom of the children of God, which is the gift of grace. As a logical consequence, it calls for freedom from many different kinds of slavery in the
Re: [Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Here is what religious leaders have said about the class warfare propagated by Liberation Theology and the brutal violence condoned by some of its proponents: QUOTE An analysis of the phenomenon of liberation theology reveals that it constitutes a fundamental threat to the faith of the Church. At the same time it must be borne in mind that no error could persist unless it contained a grain of truth. Indeed, an error is all the more dangerous, the greater that grain of truth is, for then the temptation it exerts is all the greater. Furthermore, the error concerned would not have been able to wrench that piece of the truth to its own use if that truth had been adequately lived and witnessed to in its proper place (in the faith of the Church). So, in denouncing error and pointing to dangers in liberation theology, we must always be ready to ask what truth is latent in the error and how it can be given its rightful place, how it can be released from error's monopoly. UNQUOTE Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger Please see: http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/ratzinger/liberationtheol.htm QUOTE Thus, when the world begins to notice the clear failures of certain ideologies and systems, it seems all the more incomprehensible that certain sons of the Church in these lands-prompted at times by the desire to find quick solutions-persist in presenting as viable certain models whose failure is patent in other places in the world... Be careful, then, not to accept nor allow a Vision of human life as conflict nor ideologies which propose class hatred and violence to be instilled in you; this includes those which try to hide under theological writings (cf. Libertatis Nuntius, XI). UNQUOTE Pope John Paul II Please see: http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MX90C.HTM Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 10/30/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Further you have clearly misunderstood what liberation theology is all about. I suggest you read the following report: http://www.landreform.org/boff2.htm Liberation theologians agree with Marx's famous statement: Hitherto philosophers have explained the world; our task is to change it. They argue that theologians are not meant to be theoreticians but practitioners engaged in the struggle to bring about society's transformation. In order to do this liberation theology employs a Marxist-style class analysis, which divides the culture between oppressors and oppressed. This conflictual sociological analysis is meant to identify the injustices and exploitation within the historical situation. Marxism and liberation theology condemn religion for supporting the status quo and legitimating the power of the oppressor. But unlike Marxism, liberation theology turns to the Christian faith as a means for bringing about liberation. Marx failed to see the emotive, symbolic, and sociological force the church could be in the struggle for justice. Liberation theologians claim that they are not departing from the ancient Christian tradition when they use Marxist thought as a tool for social analysis. They do not claim to use Marxism as a philosophical world view or a comprehensive plan for political action. Human liberation may begin with the economic infrastructure, but it does not end there.
[Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 07:18:38 +0530 From: Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com Mario, you have completely missed the point in my posting. There is a world of difference between ' branded a naxalite' and 'being a naxalite'. Mario observes: You are right. There is a huge difference. If Jesus would be branded a naxalite, obviously that would be false. Your claim that he would have been is cynical and speculative and a straw man that adds nothing logical or factual to any rational debate. If Arun Ferreira, Himanshu Kumar or Dr Binayak Sen have never advocated nor condoned violence they are clearly not Naxalites. Marshall wrote: Liberation theologians agree with Marx's famous statement: Hitherto philosophers have explained the world; our task is to change it. They argue that theologians are not meant to be theoreticians but practitioners engaged in the struggle to bring about society's transformation. In order to do this liberation theology employs a Marxist-style class analysis, which divides the culture between oppressors and oppressed. They do not claim to use Marxism as a philosophical world view or a comprehensive plan for political action. Human liberation may begin with the economic infrastructure, but it does not end there. Mario responds: In spite of all its pious sophistries - and yours - Marxism did more damage to average individuals and entire societies than any other recent social or political ideology. There was no rational reason for any Christians to associate themselves with a philosophy synonymous with unspeakable evil rather than achieving any good, except for a small number of ruling elites. Christian philosophies were more than enough to deal with the problems in South America, had they been consistently applied. Marshall wrote: All I can say is you and many other NRI?s are out of touch with reality regarding issues back home. Social unrest is the biggest challenge facing the Indian state today. More that Communalism. There is degradation of the environment due to mining and indiscriminate construction. People are being displaced from their homes due to acquisition of land for SEZ?s, MNC?s and big industrialists. People are being displaced because of developmental projects like dams, construction of expressways, etc. There are no rehabilitation schemes in place. Mario responds: It seems like it is you who is out of touch with reality - namely, that all this may be true but it is the fault of Indian citizens who allowed it to happen by misusing their common sense and voting and re-voting for incompetent and corrupt people.
Re: [Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Those who have'nt read it, pls do...those who have...pls re-read: Tolstoy's short story, How much land does a man need? Therein is a marvellous answer to this querry... Alfred Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:38:03 +0530 From: fredericknoro...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for? _ Windows Live Hotmail: Your friends can get your Facebook updates, right from Hotmail®. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_4:092009
[Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Mario, you have completely missed the point in my posting. There is a world of difference between ' branded a naxalite' and 'being a naxalite'. Today anyone speaking / working for the tribals, the oppressed and the marginalised are branded as 'naxalites'. Our own goenkar Seby Rodrigues was branded one by Manohar Parrikar. Persons like Arun Ferreira, Himanshu Kumar, Dr Binayak Sen and many others who have devoted their lives by helping the oppressed, the tribals and the disadvantaged are branded naxalites, hounded, imprisoned without trial and tortured. Secondly, if you refer to the Sermon on the Mount and the 8 Beatitudes, Jesus Christ has the same social message. 'whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me'. Nowhere has violence been propagated, encouraged, justified or condoned. In fact, Jesus Christ was the ultimate peacenik. He said to offer the other cheek if one was stricken on one cheek. Further you have clearly misunderstood what liberation theology is all about. I suggest you read the following report: http://www.landreform.org/boff2.htm Liberation theologians agree with Marx's famous statement: Hitherto philosophers have explained the world; our task is to change it. They argue that theologians are not meant to be theoreticians but practitioners engaged in the struggle to bring about society's transformation. In order to do this liberation theology employs a Marxist-style class analysis, which divides the culture between oppressors and oppressed. This conflictual sociological analysis is meant to identify the injustices and exploitation within the historical situation. Marxism and liberation theology condemn religion for supporting the status quo and legitimating the power of the oppressor. But unlike Marxism, liberation theology turns to the Christian faith as a means for bringing about liberation. Marx failed to see the emotive, symbolic, and sociological force the church could be in the struggle for justice. Liberation theologians claim that they are not departing from the ancient Christian tradition when they use Marxist thought as a tool for social analysis. They do not claim to use Marxism as a philosophical world view or a comprehensive plan for political action. Human liberation may begin with the economic infrastructure, but it does not end there. The biblical notion of salvation is equated with the process of liberation from oppression and injustice. Sin is defined in terms of man's inhumanity to man. Liberation theology for all practical purposes equates loving your neighbor with loving God. The two are not only inseparable but virtually indistinguishable. God is found in our neighbor and salvation is identified with the history of man becoming. The history of salvation becomes the salvation of history embracing the entire process of humanization. Biblical history is important insofar as it models and illustrates this quest for justice and human dignity. Israel's liberation from Egypt in the Exodus and Jesus' life and death stand out as the prototypes for the contemporary human struggle for liberation. These biblical events signify the spiritual significance of secular struggle for liberation. http://www.socinian.org/liberty.html .http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:SmwtGOl8aU8J:www.mb-soft.com/believe/txn/liberati.htm+liberation+theology+historycd=3hl=enct=clnkgl=in http://liberationtheology.org/ Liberation theology has played a significant role in central and south America. Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier could be overthrown only because of the active role played by Jean Bertrand Aristide a former Salesian priest who aroused the conscience of the people and galvanized them into concerted action. Papa and baby Doc Duvalier can be counted among the most cruel persons who have walked upon this earth. Getting rid of them was no easy task. Similarly, in El Salvador, Archbishop Oscar Romero was instrumental in changing Salvadorean society. The ruling oligarchy and military juntas were overthrown and replaced by people movements. More importantly, the means used were non-violence, although Archbishop Romero himself was killed while celebrating Mass. Many priests sacrificed their lives and were killed for opposing the tyranic rule of the ruling juntas. In Nicaragua too, the Jesuits were in the forefront of opposing tyranic rule and helped the Sandinistas to come to power. Social justice cannot be achieved merely by preaching from the pulpit. It has to be put into action by walking the talk. And that is what liberation theology did. That the movement petered out subsequently was due to the conservative outlook of late Pope John Paul II. Closer home, the despotic rule of Ferdinand Marcos in Philippines could come to an end without bloodshed, was solely due to the role played by Cardinal Jaime Sin. All I can say is you and many other NRI’s are out of touch with reality regarding issues back home. Social unrest is the biggest challenge facing the Indian state
Re: [Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Man has often shaped god in his image and likeness. Christ went from being a seen as a rebel leader of the underdog, to being the religious figure supported by the dominant forces of an Empire (the Roman one). From there, it was a short step away to him becoming Christ the King, a term still in use despite the sun actually setting on the monarchy in most parts of the planet. In Medieval times, he was dressed up in the finery of the feudal order. In colonial times, the powers of that era (Spain, Portugal particularly, but also Britain) were quick to deploy Christian religious imagery to justify their own civilizing and economic agendas. More recently, I read somewhere (don't recall the exact citation) references to the management styles of Christ. It was almost as if he was Christ the Managing Director. Even someone like Lal Krishna Advani has been able to deploy Christian imagery, when it suits his purpose, both in Goa late last decade and in Kerala [http://www.samaylive.com/news/bjp-a-party-resurrected-after-crucifixion-advani/617848.html] If you take the sections of the Bible which talk about his search for justice, and against the powers that be, it's not hard to see a Christ the Revolutionary emerge. The Liberation Theology that gained hold in the jungles of Latin America is as close you could come to a revolutionary form of Christianity (though this was also seen as a counterfeit by forces both on the Right and the Left, for differing reasons). Whether Christ might have taken up card-holding membership :-) of the CPI (Maoists) or not is a moot point today. But Marshall has a point when he says he would probably be branded a Naxalite. Even a Seby Rodrigues in Goa was recently! By none other than the honourable leader of the Opposition, Manohar Parrikar! Here's the New Internationalist, almost tongue-in-cheek, on Was Christ a Revolutionary? http://www.newint.org/features/special/2008/05/01/jesus-christ/ FN 2009/10/29 Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com: This is an incredible statement! Do mainstream Goan religious folk subscribe to this belief? My understanding was that Naxalites were as bad as religious terrorists and extremists in India. During 2009 so far they have killed 560 innocent Indian civilians and security personnel. Had Jesus Christ lived today, possibly he too would have been branded a ‘naxalite’. There are many commonalities between Christianity and Marxism. Social justice is an important issue in India.
[Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:43:11 +0530 From: Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com Both Arun and Vernon were heavily influenced by the liberation theology propounded by the Jesuits in the 70's and 80's and practiced especially in Central and South America. Mario responds: So called liberation theology grew out of frustation with the oppressive oligarchies that existed in South America where a small number of wealthy families ruled the roost and exploited vast numbers of average citizens. These oligarchies functioned very much like colonists and had minimal social consciences. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church did not do much to alleviate the exploitation of the populace, thereby failing in its primary mission. Thus liberation theology evolved as a well intentioned attempt to implement social justice by Christianizing Marxism. This was an absurd concept, redundant on its face and a contradiction in philosophies as well. All that was really necessary was for the Catholic Church to start behaving like Christians. Real Christianity has always had a social philosophy based on love of one's neighbor without the coercive weight of government being involved. In stark contrast, Marxism pretends to have a social conscience but this is only a ruse because it is based on the coercive and oppressive weight of government controlled by a small number of ruling elites who think they know what's best for everyone else, better than they do, and are willing to impose their will by force and violence. Thus Marxism seeks to replace the wealthy oligarchs with its ruling elites and the population is left no better off than they were before, often will less personal freedom as we see from the experiences of Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua and Bolivia. Marshall wrote: Had Jesus Christ lived today, possibly he too would have been branded a naxalite. Mario observes: Marshall, This is one of the most outrageous, even blasphemous, assertions I have seen in a long time. You don't seem to have a clue as to what Naxalite means. For Marshall's edification, here is how Wikipedia accurately describes the Naxalite movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite Excerpt: Naxalite or Naxalvadis (name from the village of Naxalbari in the Indian state of West Bengal where the movement originated), are a group of far-left radical communists, supportive of Maoist political sentiment and ideology. Their origin can be traced to the split in 1967 of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), leading to formation of Communist Party of India (Marxist- Leninist). They have been responsible, since 1947, of violent acts on the Indian state and its machinary. [end of excerpt] Naxalites are VIOLENT far left radical Maoist communists. Their inspiration comes from Mao Tse Tung, the worst mass murderer in world history responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of political adversaries in his attempts to consolidate his political power. Jesus was the exact opposite of a Naxalite. Marshall wrote: There are many commonalities between Christianity and Marxism. Social justice is an important issue in India. Mario observes: Poppycock. As outlined above, real Christianity stands for loving your neighbor as yourself and for taking care of those who need help, whereas Marxism replaces love with the coercive power of the state where a small group of ruling elites seek to control every aspect of their lives, by force if necessary. Marxism has failed in every country that has tried it and been consigned to the thrash heap of history where it belonged to begin with. Today it is synonymous with brutally oppressive states with ruined economies and terrified citizens in places like N. Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Somalia and a few other basket cases. Christianity is alive and well and spreading around the world. Marshall wrote: I am attaching transcripts of an interview of Arundhati Roy with Karan Thapar which relates to such issues and also an interaction between CNN-IBN with Arundhati Roy and Gladstone Dung Dung which has lessons for us all even here in Goa. Mario responds: Arundhati Roy is a proponent of the failed ideology of Marxism. She is a dangerous radical in sheep's clothing whose ideas are as obsolete and harmful as the failed ideologies of Marxism, Leninism and Maoism. Proof of this lies in the rejection of these ideologies by its major proponents like the old Soviet Union and China, who tried it and created nothing but economic havoc and human misery until they decided to scrap it for the sake of their people. There are no lessons for Goa as far as I can see in anything that Arundhati and the frustrated and violent radicals and revolutionaries she supports seem to believe. While there are some parallels between the corrupt government in Goa and the wealthy oligarchs in South America in how they run roughshod over the populace, the oligarchs
Re: [Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
The question is whether mainstream religious folk accept armed violence as a legitimate means of fighting against injustice, which this form of Marxism and Liberation Theology does. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 10/29/09, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: Man has often shaped god in his image and likeness. Christ went from being a seen as a rebel leader of the underdog, to being the religious figure supported by the dominant forces of an Empire (the Roman one). From there, it was a short step away to him becoming Christ the King, a term still in use despite the sun actually setting on the monarchy in most parts of the planet. In Medieval times, he was dressed up in the finery of the feudal order. In colonial times, the powers of that era (Spain, Portugal particularly, but also Britain) were quick to deploy Christian religious imagery to justify their own civilizing and economic agendas. More recently, I read somewhere (don't recall the exact citation) references to the management styles of Christ. It was almost as if he was Christ the Managing Director. Even someone like Lal Krishna Advani has been able to deploy Christian imagery, when it suits his purpose, both in Goa late last decade and in Kerala [http://www.samaylive.com/news/bjp-a-party-resurrected-after-crucifixion-advani/617848.html] If you take the sections of the Bible which talk about his search for justice, and against the powers that be, it's not hard to see a Christ the Revolutionary emerge. The Liberation Theology that gained hold in the jungles of Latin America is as close you could come to a revolutionary form of Christianity (though this was also seen as a counterfeit by forces both on the Right and the Left, for differing reasons). Whether Christ might have taken up card-holding membership :-) of the CPI (Maoists) or not is a moot point today. But Marshall has a point when he says he would probably be branded a Naxalite. Even a Seby Rodrigues in Goa was recently! By none other than the honourable leader of the Opposition, Manohar Parrikar! Here's the New Internationalist, almost tongue-in-cheek, on Was Christ a Revolutionary? http://www.newint.org/features/special/2008/05/01/jesus-christ/ FN
[Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
Venita Coelho: A year ago there excitement over the alleged naxalite with a Goan connection. Arun Fereira was arrested from Bandra and held by the police. Arun was educated at St. Xaviers college and again, a world removed from what you would imagine a naxal to be. There are more Goan connections. Vernon Gonsalves is being held as a suspected leader of the CPI (ML). Response: A small correction. I reliably understand that Arun Ferreira is an East Indian from Bombay. He also hails from a highly respected family having priests and nuns among them. The late J B D’Souza, former Chief Secretary of Maharashtra and Municipal Commissioner too was related to him. Vernon Gonsalves hails from Mangalore. Both Arun and Vernon were heavily influenced by the liberation theology propounded by the Jesuits in the 70’s and 80’s and practiced especially in Central and South America. Had Jesus Christ lived today, possibly he too would have been branded a ‘naxalite’. There are many commonalities between Christianity and Marxism. Social justice is an important issue in India. We have now reached the crossroads where we have to confront it head on. I am attaching transcripts of an interview of Arundhati Roy with Karan Thapar which relates to such issues and also an interaction between CNN-IBN with Arundhati Roy and Gladstone Dung Dung which has lessons for us all even here in Goa. http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-at-war-with-naxals-to-aid-mncs-arundhati/103627-3-single.html http://ibnlive.in.com/news/indian-democracy-in-a-state-of-emergency/103928-3-single.html Regards, Marshall
Re: [Goanet] What would you be willing to give your life for?
--- On Wed, 10/28/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Had Jesus Christ lived today, possibly he too would have been branded a ‘naxalite’. There are many commonalities between Christianity and Marxism. This is an incredible statement! Do mainstream Goan religious folk subscribe to this belief? My understanding was that Naxalites were as bad as religious terrorists and extremists in India. During 2009 so far they have killed 560 innocent Indian civilians and security personnel. Cheers, Santosh
