Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I didn't know the world contributed much if anything to the Marshall Plan. Actually, Marshall agreed with the Noronha plan even though his was different. Nobody agreed with Marshall. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Dom, are you referring to the late Fritz Dimsak? And was your camera a Zenit? That was the only SLR I could afford in 1985 or so, when I managed to buy one from Russian tourists here for Rs 1100. It served me well for awhile, and was entirely manual. Nothing fancy like the digitals from today's Japan and elsewhere... FN 2009/11/16 Dom Martin dommartin9juno.com dommart...@juno.com: Contagiously curious if you are talking of the same German sailor turned watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim? The one I am addressing to had his shop set opposite the High Court, or adjacent to Damodar Mangalji. ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / In the early 70’s, I was referred to him when I was having difficulty deciphering how to unload a Russian camera I had purchased. That German gentleman took on the challenge and after tinkering with it for a short while, figured it out. His fee: A gracious smile! -- Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490 Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Professor Bernado Colaco, always erudite with economy with words, seems to forget there were many more ... German navymen from the bombed out frigates or whatever, at Mormugao in 1942/3, who were allowed to marry locals and live in Goa. The list is long. Both the Goanetter who correctly wrote about the watch-repairer and our Prof. Bernado seem to forget the dog-shooter, hired by the municipalities of Panjim (and at times of Margao -- though we had several of our own here in Salcete most of the time), when it was legal to shoot stray dogs in Goa. Unfortunately, stray dogs and politicians have proliferated today. Safe in Macau, Prof. Bernado! Rgds, v - Original Message - From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:29 PM Subject: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa It was the German U Boats which were sinking the Brit Merchant Navy. Prof. Val as placed a good account of the events but forgets to mention that Robert Hepp of the famous VW car sales and repair in Mira Mar was also a spy and clearly was helping the Deutuchlanders. BC
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
It has to be the same person, Dom! Fritz was not garrulous, but I got the feeling that he was grateful for whatever shelter Goa had provided him in very difficult times. Regards, Victor --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dom Martin dommartin9juno.com dommart...@juno.com wrote: From: Dom Martin dommartin9juno.com dommart...@juno.com Subject: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 9:01 PM Contagiously curious if you are talking of the same German sailor turned watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim? The one I am addressing to had his shop set opposite the High Court, or adjacent to Damodar Mangalji. ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / In the early 70’s, I was referred to him when I was having difficulty deciphering how to unload a Russian camera I had purchased. That German gentleman took on the challenge and after tinkering with it for a short while, figured it out. His fee: A gracious smile! In whatever calm or choppy waters of Eternity his ship is currently anchored, Almighty blessings! As someone said: “People are not bad. Only individuals are!” Dom Martin P.S.: I still have that Russian camera in my collection, as a memento of a fellow Goan who scuttled his bad buy on to me! In a message dated 11/15/2009 10:59:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, goanet-requ...@lists.goanet.org writes:Message: 7 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) From: Victor Rangel-Ribeiro vrangel...@yahoo.com To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa Message-ID: 850161.38242...@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear Vivian, The German ships raced into Mormugao harbour to avoid being captured by the British naval forces, not to avoid being torpedoed by them! Far from torpedoing them, the British would gladly have used them to replace some of their own ships that were lost to the German submarines in the area. The British raid on one of the ships in the Zuari took place on March 9, 1943, and not at the beginning of the war, as Selma stated (the war began in 1939). So the masts of the sunken ships you saw in 1947 were indeed the masts of those ships. But only one, the Ehrenfels, had been attacked by the British raiders; the others?were scuttled by their own crews out of fear that they too?were about to be attacked. In the early 1990s I?met several times with?the German sailor turned?watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim, and tried to persuade him to write his memoirs, but he had no interest in doing so. A pity, because he would have?had much to tell! Regards, Victor? Top Online Degrees Earn your AS, BS, or Masters degree from the top schools, 100% online! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=Jh6tBuhb_5vcRXx6YFJZhwAAJ1AcvAXPqsTxxVXL-5uq-HCNAAQFAMVswj4AAAMlAABSMAA=
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Fritz it is, Gabriel! Warm regards, Victor --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au wrote: From: Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au Subject: Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 11:25 PM Fritz Dimsak? - Original Message From: Victor Rangel-Ribeiro vrangel...@yahoo.com To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Mon, 16 November, 2009 2:22:16 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa In the early 1990s I met several times with the German sailor turned watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim, and tried to persuade him to write his memoirs, but he had no interest in doing so. __ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
[Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) From: Victor Rangel-Ribeiro vrangel...@yahoo.com The British raid on one of the ships in the Zuari took place on March 9, 1943, and not at the beginning of the war, as Selma stated (the war began in 1939). So the masts of the sunken ships you saw in 1947 were indeed the masts of those ships. But only one, the Ehrenfels, had been attacked by the British raiders; the others were scuttled by their own crews out of fear that they too were about to be attacked. Mario asks: Victor and/or Vivian, What happened to the ships that were sunk or scuttled in Goa? Are the hulks still underwater in Mormugoa Bay and the Zuari River? BTW, I found this shifting thread fascinating: a) it all started as a tribute to Goan Veterans of WW-II, b) it then morphed into a failed attempt to rewrite history to excuse the Nazis and impugn the Brits, c) one imaginative Goanetter attempted to blame a French demand for reparations after WW-I for chastening the Germans resulting in the rise of the Nazis and therefore blamed the French for WW-II. If he had gone back a step he should have blamed whoever started WW-I for WW-II because without WW-I there would have been no demand for reparations by the French:-)) d) the Jews were described as a Nazi scapegoat and the genocide an attempt to whip up the Germans. Hmmm! Perhaps whoever started WW-I should be blamed for the conflict in the middle-east, because without them the French would not have demanded the reparations that chastened the Germans and caused the Nazis to rise, without the Nazis we would not have had the Holocaust, without the Holocaust there would have been no Israel, etc. etc. etc. Saiba boggus! Oh, what a tangled web we can weave:-)) e) apparently we had peace after WW-II because the world rebuilt Europe instead of chastening them by demanding reparations. I didn't know the world contributed much if anything to the Marshall Plan. Maybe they did. Memo: Wasn't it nuclear weapons and MAD that kept the peace after WW-II? Maybe not. f) then the discussion shifted to German's taking refuge in Goan waterways. g) now I want to know what happened to the sunken German ships in Goa:-))
[Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Yes Fred, -- Fritz Dimsak it is! Off hand, I do not recall the make but it was not an SLR, and I paid Rs. 1000 for it in 1973-74. I remember trying to get the whole of the St. Anne Church (Talaulim) in the view frame only to find out after the film was developed that the church was cropped on one end or the other. For my second shoot, I took the precaution of marking exactly where I stood, so that depending on which end the result was cropped, I would accordingly move my marker for the third shoot. After several more arduous treks back and forth on foot, I realized, it doesn’t quite work that way. If it had, I would have made a living as a photographer and even showed up for the release of your book, Another Goa. CONGRATULATIONS!?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / Dom Message: 5 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:55:40 +0530 From: Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa Message-ID: 11a806d20911160425i12d372ffy54fb6f722d20e...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Dom, are you referring to the late Fritz Dimsak? And was your camera a Zenit? That was the only SLR I could afford in 1985 or so, when I managed to buy one from Russian tourists here for Rs 1100. It served me well for awhile, and was entirely manual. Nothing fancy like the digitals from today's Japan and elsewhere... FN Become a Paralegal Start your paralegal career with an online degree. Free info packs! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=SfhXfqaJAaR8FO0e1hdprwAAJ1AcvAXPqsTxxVXL-5uq-HCNAAQFAPLSjT4AAANSAAVlMAA=
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Vivian A. DSouza socorro...@yahoo.com wrote: As a 7 year old in 1947, our family had travelled by ship from East Africa to Mormugoa, Goa. As the ship entered the harbor, there were several ship masts sticking out of the water, obviously of sunken ships. Later I was given to understand that these were German ships that had gathered in Mormugoa for safe harbor to avoid being torpedoed if they ventured out to sea, and that at the end of World War II the Germans had deliberately scuttled their ships rather than allow them to fall into British hands. --- Not likely Vivian, as the Seawolves incident took place at the beginning of the war. Could you have got the dates wrong? best, Selma
[Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
It was the German U Boats which were sinking the Brit Merchant Navy. Prof. Val as placed a good account of the events but forgets to mention that Robert Hepp of the famous VW car sales and repair in Mira Mar was also a spy and clearly was helping the Deutuchlanders. BC
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Dear Vivian, The German ships raced into Mormugao harbour to avoid being captured by the British naval forces, not to avoid being torpedoed by them! Far from torpedoing them, the British would gladly have used them to replace some of their own ships that were lost to the German submarines in the area. The British raid on one of the ships in the Zuari took place on March 9, 1943, and not at the beginning of the war, as Selma stated (the war began in 1939). So the masts of the sunken ships you saw in 1947 were indeed the masts of those ships. But only one, the Ehrenfels, had been attacked by the British raiders; the others were scuttled by their own crews out of fear that they too were about to be attacked. In the early 1990s I met several times with the German sailor turned watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim, and tried to persuade him to write his memoirs, but he had no interest in doing so. A pity, because he would have had much to tell! Regards, Victor --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 3:16 AM --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Vivian A. DSouza socorro...@yahoo.com wrote: As a 7 year old in 1947, our family had travelled by ship from East Africa to Mormugoa, Goa. As the ship entered the harbor, there were several ship masts sticking out of the water, obviously of sunken ships. Later I was given to understand that these were German ships that had gathered in Mormugoa for safe harbor to avoid being torpedoed if they ventured out to sea, and that at the end of World War II the Germans had deliberately scuttled their ships rather than allow them to fall into British hands. --- Not likely Vivian, as the Seawolves incident took place at the beginning of the war. Could you have got the dates wrong? best, Selma
[Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sea_Wolves The Book: The film is based on the book *Boarding Party* by James Leasor, which itself is based on a real incident which took place in the Second World Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World_War . Plot During World War II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II, Germanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanysubmarines are sinking thousands of tons of British http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom merchanthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchantshipping. British intelligence, based in India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India, believe information is being passed to the U-Boats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Boat by a radio transmitter hidden on board one of three German ships internedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internmentin Portuguese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal Goa. Since Portugal is neutral, the ships cannot be attacked by conventional forces. British intelligence approach a territorialhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Army_%28United_Kingdom%29unit of ageing British expatriates to carry out the mission on their behalf. Historical fact: The film notes in its closing creditshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_creditsthat during the first 11 days of March 1943, the U-boats sank 12 Allied ships in the Indian Ocean. But, after the Light Horse raid on Goa, only one ship was lost in the remainder of the month. Film based on facts: The incident involved The Calcutta Light Horsehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcutta_Light_Horse's covert attack against a German merchant ship which had been transmitting information to U-boats from Mormugao Harbour in neutral Portugal's territory of Goa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa on 9 March 1943. --- Not likely Vivian, as the Seawolves incident took place at the beginning of the war. Could you have got the dates wrong?best,Selma
[Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Contagiously curious if you are talking of the same German sailor turned watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim? The one I am addressing to had his shop set opposite the High Court, or adjacent to Damodar Mangalji. ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / In the early 70’s, I was referred to him when I was having difficulty deciphering how to unload a Russian camera I had purchased. That German gentleman took on the challenge and after tinkering with it for a short while, figured it out. His fee: A gracious smile! In whatever calm or choppy waters of Eternity his ship is currently anchored, Almighty blessings! As someone said: “People are not bad. Only individuals are!” Dom Martin P.S.: I still have that Russian camera in my collection, as a memento of a fellow Goan who scuttled his bad buy on to me! In a message dated 11/15/2009 10:59:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, goanet-requ...@lists.goanet.org writes:Message: 7 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) From: Victor Rangel-Ribeiro vrangel...@yahoo.com To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa Message-ID: 850161.38242...@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear Vivian, The German ships raced into Mormugao harbour to avoid being captured by the British naval forces, not to avoid being torpedoed by them! Far from torpedoing them, the British would gladly have used them to replace some of their own ships that were lost to the German submarines in the area. The British raid on one of the ships in the Zuari took place on March 9, 1943, and not at the beginning of the war, as Selma stated (the war began in 1939). So the masts of the sunken ships you saw in 1947 were indeed the masts of those ships. But only one, the Ehrenfels, had been attacked by the British raiders; the others?were scuttled by their own crews out of fear that they too?were about to be attacked. In the early 1990s I?met several times with?the German sailor turned?watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim, and tried to persuade him to write his memoirs, but he had no interest in doing so. A pity, because he would have?had much to tell! Regards, Victor? Top Online Degrees Earn your AS, BS, or Masters degree from the top schools, 100% online! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=Jh6tBuhb_5vcRXx6YFJZhwAAJ1AcvAXPqsTxxVXL-5uq-HCNAAQFAMVswj4AAAMlAABSMAA=
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Fritz Dimsak? - Original Message From: Victor Rangel-Ribeiro vrangel...@yahoo.com To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Mon, 16 November, 2009 2:22:16 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa In the early 1990s I met several times with the German sailor turned watchmaker who set up shop in Panjim, and tried to persuade him to write his memoirs, but he had no interest in doing so. __ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
Re: [Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
The Gernan-Sailor-Turned-Watch repairer was called FRITZ DIMSAK. He married a Goan and had a son called Oswald who did not use his father's surname, but rather his mother's. Oswald also worked with Fritz in that little shop opposite the Court. -- o . . o o_.__' Cheers! \~/ \ / '-.-' Tony de Sa |M: +91 9975 162 897 _|_ Ph: +91 832 2470 148 `` tonyd...@gmail.com W. Somerset Maugham: I always find it more difficult to say the things I mean than the things I don't. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:
[Goanet] World War II German presence in Goa
Wow ! This forum gives us so much historical news. I have a question of those who might know: As a 7 year old in 1947, our family had travelled by ship from East Africa to Mormugoa, Goa. As the ship entered the harbor, there were several ship masts sticking out of the water, obviously of sunken ships. Later I was given to understand that these were German ships that had gathered in Mormugoa for safe harbor to avoid being torpedoed if they ventured out to sea, and that at the end of World War II the Germans had deliberately scuttled their ships rather than allow them to fall into British hands. Could these have been the same ships referred to in a couple of posts here on GoaNet, which were sabotaged by the British ? The story Sea Wolveswas later made into a movie which I vaguely remember watching many years ago. I appreciate all the postings on this forum which enlighten us.
