Re: [Goanet] Leo Lawrence's book
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 28/02/07, George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Paulo: > > In my interaction with Goan expats in the last 5 years, I have been surprized > that a majority (I > have not done a scientific poll) believe Goa should be separate from India > (at least in the > Catholic community). Some of them never lived in Goa, but strongly hold that > view. My second > surprize has been how easily that view has been passed down to the next > generation. All this > thinking might come to nought and is sometimes only academic discussion. > However, a 50 or 100 > years from now, I think mega countries like China, India, Brazil, Russia, > America might split up > under their own weight into smaller entities for political, religious, > economic reasons (even Iraq > may split up). Even within countries, some states like UP have split in the > last few years. The > countries I mentioned did not have the same geographical boundaries a 100 > years ago, so anything > is possible a 100 years from now. Over time everything changes. > > The futurist like me wants to ask: what will a Goan country look like? > > Regards, > George RESPONSE: My thoughts: North Goa, including Panjim will become part of Marathilal. South Goa will become Goana land; grass skirt dancing bevys!. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] leo lawrence's book - reply to Paulo
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Eugene, thanks for your reply. The main problem I have with your post is that you refer to India and the Republic of India as the same entity. And it is not the same entity. The Indian Union and the Republic of India may be the same entity but I cannot see how the Republic of India and India of the XV century can be the same entity. (I mentioned XV century because it is pre-Portuguese conquest) Portuguese India was geographically located in the Indian subcontinent, just like Bangladesh and even Pakistan. But there is no doubt that the Republic of India does not represent the whole area which was known as the Indian Subcontinent or more commonly and formerly known as India (just like the Portuguese and British called it when they first conquered it several centuries ago) 1. Goa was never a possession of the Republic of India, therefore, the Republic of India did not have the right to take over Goa without the consent of the Goan populace. I think this is quite obvious. And my only problem remains here as I said over and over again. Goans should have been consulted. The lack of a referendum on this subject immediately after 19 Dec 1961 is the main reason I will never call the events of 1961 a liberation, because if it had been a true liberation, the power should have been handed over back to the Goans to decide about their future (independent nation or merger with the Indian Union). This is what happened in the liberation of Kuwait. But as we all know, it did not happen in Goa. And as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the only way the Indian Union found to legalise the action was to call it formally an act of conquest. So, indeed, we were conquered yet again. It is not me who says this. It is the Supreme Court of India. 2. The argument about Goa being part of the motherland. What motherland are we talking about? India? Yes, that is true. But please read India as Indian Subcontinent here. Not as Republic of India as it would not make sense to read it as Republic of India. Otherwise, why did the Republic of India allow Pakistan and Bangladesh? Wasn't that also part of India? So, why are they independent nations now? 3. The argument about Goa being geographically continuous with the Republic of India is absurd. It is indeed interesting to note that the URSS (the country which vetoed the UN resolutions in 1962 against the Indian Union) is the country which used the same argument and brutally annexed after the II World war the tiny and defenceless countries along their north-western border such as Esthonia, Lithuania and Latvia. And the rest we all know what happened to Poland, Rumania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and even East Germany. So, where do we stop? If this is a valid argument, why doesn't Canada use it to annex Alaska? And Spain to annex Portugal (and mind you Portugal was indeed part of Spain before its foundation date)? And Brazil the rest of South America? You get my point? The truth is that Goans were always bullied and continued to be so even after 1961. For the Indian Union not to have given us a choice is, to me, an insult and a betrayal to all true Goan freedom fighters. Here is a parable I invented for the purpose of a healthy discussion: A tiny master had a slave and a second much stronger master promised freedom to the slave. So, the second master killed the first master and told the slave that from now on you are free but you have to work for me. What options were given to the allegedly free man after his first master was killed? None. So, was the slave really free to do what he wanted now? And with this I rest my case. Best wishes Paulo. PS: I would love to read your friend Prof. Arthur Rubinoff's book. Where can I buy it or access it from? > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:goanet- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eugene Correia > Sent: 28 February 2007 05:49 > To: goanet@goanet.org > Subject: Re: [Goanet] leo lawrence's book - reply to Paulo > > Dear Paulo, > > The Indian reason for repossessing, reclaiming or > recovering Goa lies in the fact that Goa has been a > homogenous part of a place on earth called India from > times immemorial. The geographical continuity of Goa > to India cannot be disputed. > I don't think the idea would be ever welcomed by India > who maintained that Goa was part and parcel of the > motherland and that the Poruguese were just intruders. > Dur
Re: [Goanet] Leo Lawrence's book
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] I feel the mega-country most imminently close to a breakup is Indonesia. AT >From: George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. >1994!" >To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" >Subject: Re: [Goanet] Leo Lawrence's book >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:53:00 -0800 (PST) > >--- Paulo Colaco Dias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think everyone will agree that the Republic of India never exercised > > sovereignty over Goa before so how could the Republic of India (Indian > > Union) repossess Goa? > >Dear Paulo: > >In my interaction with Goan expats in the last 5 years, I have been >surprized that a majority (I >have not done a scientific poll) believe Goa should be separate from India >(at least in the >Catholic community). Some of them never lived in Goa, but strongly hold >that view. My second >surprize has been how easily that view has been passed down to the next >generation. All this >thinking might come to nought and is sometimes only academic discussion. >However, a 50 or 100 >years from now, I think mega countries like China, India, Brazil, Russia, >America might split up >under their own weight into smaller entities for political, religious, >economic reasons (even Iraq >may split up). Even within countries, some states like UP have split in the >last few years. The >countries I mentioned did not have the same geographical boundaries a 100 >years ago, so anything >is possible a 100 years from now. Over time everything changes. > >The futurist like me wants to ask: what will a Goan country look like? > >Regards, >George _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Re: [Goanet] leo lawrence's book - reply to Paulo
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Paulo, I have refrained from either replying to many of your posts here regarding India's takeover of Goa as I know where you stand on the subject. But since you addressed your post to me, I feel compelled to provide you with an answer. The Indian reason for repossessing, reclaiming or recovering Goa lies in the fact that Goa has been a homogenous part of a place on earth called India from times immemorial. The geographical continuity of Goa to India cannot be disputed. There is no denying that Portuguese can as conquerors and stayed on for reasons we know. True, the liberation or conquest of Goa has been seen as a multifaceted action. True, the liberation was condemned in most of the western media and by many western leaders. But it was also welcomed by most African nations who, like India, were under the colonial yoke. Goa's liberation spurred African nationalism. It was for them the best thing that ever happened. Why did the British leave India? Why couldn't Portuguese leave India in the same graceful manner as the French? It is debatable whether Portuguese wanted to leave Goa after assuring that Goa would remain an independent nation. This is a canard spread by the Portuguese government to delay, and possibly, deny Goa its freedom. The economic and geographical realities of the day were not favourable for Goa to be independent. But we never know if Goa would have made it alone were it ever granted freedom to be an independent nation. I don't think the idea would be ever welcomed by India who maintained that Goa was part and parcel of the motherland and that the Poruguese were just intruders. During the 1950s upto to the 60s, the fire of nationalism was raging wild in many colonial countries. India was at the forefront of this struggle to free themselves of the burden of colonialism. As per international jurisdiction, India's act was of aggression. It is a fine line between self-determination and agression when it comes to nationalism versus colonialism. This subject is dealt well in my friend Prof. Arthur Rubinoff's book, India's Use of Force in Goa. The subject was his Ph.D thesis and this established him as a scholar on Goa, though he is also considered an expert on South Asian politicis, notably Indian politics. I have talked with Rubinoff on this issue a couple of times in Toronto, where he teaches at the York University. I have no more to add to the everlasting debate. It is now a moot point and each one must either be happy or sad at event which changed the course of Goa's history. So, read it and have your peace within yourself. Eugene Correia Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited
Re: [Goanet] Leo Lawrence's book
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Paulo Colaco Dias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think everyone will agree that the Republic of India never exercised > sovereignty over Goa before so how could the Republic of India (Indian > Union) repossess Goa? Dear Paulo: In my interaction with Goan expats in the last 5 years, I have been surprized that a majority (I have not done a scientific poll) believe Goa should be separate from India (at least in the Catholic community). Some of them never lived in Goa, but strongly hold that view. My second surprize has been how easily that view has been passed down to the next generation. All this thinking might come to nought and is sometimes only academic discussion. However, a 50 or 100 years from now, I think mega countries like China, India, Brazil, Russia, America might split up under their own weight into smaller entities for political, religious, economic reasons (even Iraq may split up). Even within countries, some states like UP have split in the last few years. The countries I mentioned did not have the same geographical boundaries a 100 years ago, so anything is possible a 100 years from now. Over time everything changes. The futurist like me wants to ask: what will a Goan country look like? Regards, George
Re: [Goanet] leo lawrence's book
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eugene, you can only repossess (also read reclaim, recover, recuperate) something which you owned (also read exercised sovereignty) before. I think everyone will agree that the Republic of India never exercised sovereignty over Goa before so how could the Republic of India (Indian Union) repossess Goa? In legal terms, it did not. What happened in 1961 was a conquest of the ex-Portuguese territories as it is recorded in several determinations by the Supreme Court of the Republic of India. It is about time we all accept that we have indeed been conquered, yet again, and find our peace within that finding. Best regards. Paulo. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:goanet- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eugene Correia > Sent: 26 February 2007 22:51 > To: Goanet > Subject: Re: [Goanet] leo lawrence's book > > To answer Jose's question, I have gone through Leo > Lawrence's book, which mostly harps on the Goa case at > the UN. > > Like many pro-Portuguese Goans, Leo advocated a Free > Goa in a Free India. I had another friend who gave me > many phamplets he published espousing the case of Goa > as an independent nation. He quoted facts and figures, > such as Luxemborg, or probably some other nation, > being smaller that Goa in area. > > Like the present-day Khalistanis wanting an > independent Punjab. I won't mention Kashmir, because > the history of this state is complicated and has its > own unique history in India's political framework.I > am not sure of Cardinal Gracias's statement but he > was consulted by the Goan liberation leaders and fully > backed India's repossession of Goa. > > Eugene
Re: [Goanet] leo lawrence's book
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To answer Jose's question, I have gone through Leo Lawrence's book, which mostly harps on the Goa case at the UN. Like many pro-Portuguese Goans, Leo advocated a Free Goa in a Free India. I had another friend who gave me many phamplets he published espousing the case of Goa as an independent nation. He quoted facts and figures, such as Luxemborg, or probably some other nation, being smaller that Goa in area. Like the present-day Khalistanis wanting an independent Punjab. I won't mention Kashmir, because the history of this state is complicated and has its own unique history in India's political framework.I am not sure of Cardinal Gracias's statement but he was consulted by the Goan liberation leaders and fully backed India's repossession of Goa. How many on this forum have read Prof Soares's autobiography? Eugene
