Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders II (Mervyn/Rajan)
Rajan Parrikar wrote: as far as the American Identity is concerned, I will never be mistaken for an Insider by any American. Why, I myself do not want to be considered an Insider. That is because I AM NOT an Insider there. I enjoy all the constitutional rights the American citizen enjoys. Mervyn Lobo wrote: A Czech born citizen became US Secretary's of State. If you never felt as an "insider" in the US, you have no one but yourself to blame. Here in Canada, approx 30% of the members of Parliament have been born outside the country. jc's comment: I submit that all these notions of Insider/Outsider, Belonging/Excluded within the context of a democratic country are largely self-imagined and self engineered. It is my opinion that many Indians exclude themselves in communities abroad by being very concentric. They have book knowledge of the various cultures but rarely take the time and opportunity to experience the beneficial aspects of other cultures. They tend to have their own little groups and make very few non-Indian friends unless there is a business reason (the matlabi type of connection). Goans (and Sindhis) have been pretty good at becoming part of the societies they live in. I have seen this in the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada, Portugal, US and here in the Carribean. These two communities also participate in charitable organisations which help the poor living in those countries. Those who remain solely to themselves are more likely to feel forever like outsiders, and that is their choice. BTW: Rajan may be reminded that he (as a non US born) could NOT enjoy all the constitutional rights the US born American citizen enjoys. However, if he was born in (say) Florida, he would enjoy the rights (except for In-State tuition waivers) in (say) New York. I ask: why should a law abiding and hard working (say) malayali or Bhaiyya not enjoy his constitutional rights as an Indian citizen in Goa? BTW Mervyn, I am sure you wanted to add that the present Governor-General of Canada is an Afro-Haitian-Canadian who was born in Haiti. Hopefully, Goans will grow up and accept the realities of life - i.e. that every single Indian citizen has every right to buy land in Goa, settle in Goa and do whatever business he/she wishes in Goa. If Goans want to protect their cultural heritage, they will have to work together to protect that heritage. It will not happen when Goans of one religious faith, culture or community consistently tear down the other. It just will NOT happen. Trust me ... It ain't going to happen! jc
Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders II
Rajan P. Parrikar wrote: > I have lived in America for almost 20 years, acquired an > advanced degree there, seen a great deal of the country, > interacted, socialized, and lived with Americans over a period > of several years, even internalized some of their habits. I > know more about America's history, geography, geology etc > than most Americans, and may have a better intellectual > appreciation of elements of Americana than several Americans > themselves. But as far as the American Identity is concerned, > I will never be mistaken for an Insider by any American (the > colour of my skin is not a factor in that determination, for > the same would apply to a white Croatian). Why, I myself > do not want to be considered an Insider. That is because > I AM NOT an Insider there. I enjoy all the constitutional rights > the American citizen enjoys, I participate in some of their > festivals, national events etc, and the American acknowledges > that fact. But he and I both know that I am not an Insider in > their framework. That is a privilege accorded those who have > grown up as Insiders within that ecosystem. r, US citizens that were born in foreign countries have achieved "insider" positions in the US during the same time you lived there. A Czech born citizen became US Secretary's of State. If you never felt as an "insider" in the US, you have no one but yourself to blame. > Another example of a different nature - several Americans > have now learnt to play Indian Classical Music, and a handful > have attained a fair degree of proficiency. But I would never > mistake them to be Insiders in this tradition. The reach and > the nuance attending someone born into this musical tradition > is absent in the Outsider. It takes immersion into the > ecosystem (not available yet outside India) and iterations > spread over a generation or two at the least to acquire the > instinct and insight granted the Insider of comparable ability > and training. Strangely enough, the people who nowadays earn degrees in classical music from The Royal College of Music are mostly Indians, Chinese and Japanese. These degrees are not conferred with a footnote. Since you claim to have earned a degree in the US, did yours come with an asterisk? I hope you have the guts to reply. > But it is the Marxists who have developed the most > grotesque tactics to peddle their snake oil. First > off, they will tell the Insiders that they don't exist, that > it is all a mirage. This is true. Again Madame M. Albright is prime example. If you cannot see her as an example, you will never get it. Here in Canada, approx 30% of the members of Parliament have been born outside the country. This is what socialism does for you :-) > But hold on - there is one Identity the Comrade has no > problems at all pandering to, acknowledging & certifying > as genuine: namely, the Muslim Identity (the Ummah). > Historically, this has proven itself to be the most violent > & destructive of Identities, but strangely the Comrade > hasn't noticed. The Muslim Identity explicitly not only > excludes me, the Hindu, by labeling me a kaffir, it also > wants to dispatch me into eternal sleep unless I sign up > to the One and Only True Book. Paranoia setting in, my dear friend. Paranoia. Warm regards, Mervyn3.0 "Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?" - Marx - Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/
Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders
Santosh Helekar wrote: > In-group/out-group distinctions and territoriality are > basic biological traits with a strong evolutionary > grounding. But one can certainly use reason to > overcome the grotesque elements of these tendencies. > That is what civilization is all about. We can learn > to treat outsiders better. The least we can do is > treat them as human beings and afford them a modicum > of dignity. It is only worth preserving the good in > our heritage. The bad in it can lead to our downfall. > The surest way to destroy our identity is to propagate > its worst features by inbreeding and insular > attitudes. Santosh, At this time of the year, I usually take stock of what happened in the last four quarters and reflect on the changes I would like for the next four. Here is how things look at the moment. The trickster that lives in me wants: 1) Less taxes for the rich 2) More military spending 3) "User fees" for those that require public goods such as education and sanitation An angel that wants into me requires: 1) Free education and sanitation for all 2) Freedom of religion, movement and thought 3) The successful to contribute more to the societies they live in The devil (that I stoned) still wants: 1) Insiders to remain in charge and the leaders son to be the next leader 2) Freedom to print more money 3) A new water-board Mervyn3.0 "Thinking means connecting things, and stops if they cannot be connected." - G. K. Chesterton - And those of us who have resolved to uphold the constitution of India as proud citizens of that great country must remember that one of our fundamental constitutional duties is "to promote harmony and the spirit of common brotherhood amongst all the people of India transcending religious, linguistic and regional or sectional diversities". Cheers, Santosh Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/
Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders
In-group/out-group distinctions and territoriality are basic biological traits with a strong evolutionary grounding. But one can certainly use reason to overcome the grotesque elements of these tendencies. That is what civilization is all about. We can learn to treat outsiders better. The least we can do is treat them as human beings and afford them a modicum of dignity. It is only worth preserving the good in our heritage. The bad in it can lead to our downfall. The surest way to destroy our identity is to propagate its worst features by inbreeding and insular attitudes. And those of us who have resolved to uphold the constitution of India as proud citizens of that great country must remember that one of our fundamental constitutional duties is "to promote harmony and the spirit of common brotherhood amongst all the people of India transcending religious, linguistic and regional or sectional diversities". Cheers, Santosh --- "Rajan P. Parrikar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > To Goanet - > > Contrary to what Comrade Gadgil imagines, the Goan > Identity is > neither difficult nor elusive to apprehend. We > Goans know it > when we see it. The Goan Identity doesn't have to > be defined > or justified. It just is, like most other > recognizable Identities.
Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders and the Goan identity (Parrikar)
On 21/12/2007, Rajan P. Parrikar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 1: Contrary to what Comrade Gadgil imagines, the Goan Identity is neither difficult nor elusive to apprehend.We Goans know it when we see it. 2: Consider the Goan Identity as a starting point.We may zoom down into this parent Identity and within it locate islets of constituent Identities threaded to it: the Goan Hindu Identity, the Goan Catholic Identity, and so on. jc's comment: I fully agree with the points made by Rajan Parrikar and quoted above by me. We Goans know who we are and are easily able to identify each other. Mr. Gadgil should be excused for not comprehending this. After all, he is not a Goan. A few years ago, I was advised by a non-Goan settled in Goa that he is more Goan than I was ...as he had lived in Goa more years than he has. Echoing the sentiment in Rajan's post - I suggested to him NOT to confuse Goan Domicile with being Goan - unless he had partaken in common activities in which we Goans participate i.e. Feasts, Zatra, Kirtan, Tiatr, Paddo, Chouth etc Curiously ...this gentleman advised me that Goa was now part of India and that all these "Portuguese" feasts and activities do not count. Now ...Hindi was the language and the major festivals were Diwali, Dussehra and Vaisaki! Must say that (initially) I had thought that only Communists wanted to destroy institutions and traditions so that they could impose their own brand of suppression. It appears that nonGoans too are in that businessand that Goans have actively helped them. And by Goans, I mean the MGP/BJP and the Goa Congresswallas and those who facilitated this process. NOW ...no point crying over spilled milk - unless the idea is to create anarchy and force out a duly elected govt. Good luck Matanhy sincerely jc Pray that there is NO violence
Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders
To Goanet - Contrary to what Comrade Gadgil imagines, the Goan Identity is neither difficult nor elusive to apprehend. We Goans know it when we see it. The Goan Identity doesn't have to be defined or justified. It just is, like most other recognizable Identities. An unschooled villager from Chandel will know instinctively what differentiates Goan from non-Goan (ways, habits, mores) without even a single spoken word of Konkani. Why, even someone from Dodamarg just outside Goa's borders will tell you he's "Goan," for he is culturally part of the Goan fabric, geographical boundaries notwithstanding. Likewise, the peasant from Hissar will never mistake a Goan for a Jat. All communities around the world have a sense of themselves. Defining parameters of Identity include, but are not limited to, language, religious practices, culture, behavioral traits, sexual preference, history, geography, specialized training in a field of knowledge - and all these constituents go down the maw with common shared experiences to emerge as a recognizable distinct Identity product. In abstraction, the Identity phenomenon exhibits a fractal-like pattern. That is to say, regardless of the granularity chosen for viewing, the picture retains its essential features. You may upsize or downsize your focus area, yet you will be able to smoke out distinct, meaningful Identities which have a sufficiently large theatre of expression. That some of these Identities may overlap is besides the point (no culture, community, country is an island, to cite a truism). Let us clarify the foregoing with an example. Consider the Goan Identity as a starting point. We may zoom down into this parent Identity and within it locate islets of constituent Identities threaded to it: the Goan Hindu Identity, the Goan Catholic Identity, and so on. We further break down the Goan Hindu Identity into, say, the Bamon Identity, the Daivadnyas, the Gomant Maratha Samaj Identity, etc. You can slice it in directions other than caste or religion. For instance, within the Goan Identity you could tease out the Sashtikaar Identity, the Bardezkaar Identity, etc. Still more Identities may be extracted from these sub-Identities. [Aside: even at an atomic level one may posit Identities - they are called the physical Elements, which in turn combine in various ways to give compounds i.e. more Identities. Why, even quarks, the ultimate building blocks of matter, come with flavours and colours.] Now turn the other way. The Goan Identity is a subset of the Indian Identity, which in turn is a subset of the Oriental Identity, which itself is a subset of the larger Asian Identity, which is a subset of the greater Identity of the comity of all nations bound by certain laws etc. The mother of all Identities, subsuming all these clusters, is associated with us humans as a species. You can take this unification further, but you get the idea. The point of this exercise is the following: this Insider-Outsider business is perfectly natural. And - when you talk about Insiders and Outsiders, context HAS to be specified. Otherwise you get Garbage In, Garbage Out. Humans have a inherent tendency to form physical, mental, & emotional bonds leading to characteristic clusters. It is facile, when you specify the context, to immediately recognize Insiders from Outsiders. If you are sensible, you know at once whether you are an Insider or an Outsider in any given situation. Ask the Bengalis - they are experts at who is, and who is not, a Bengali. I have lived in America for almost 20 years, acquired an advanced degree there, seen a great deal of the country, interacted, socialized, and lived with Americans over a period of several years, even internalized some of their habits. I know more about America's history, geography, geology etc than most Americans, and may have a better intellectual appreciation of elements of Americana than several Americans themselves. But as far as the American Identity is concerned, I will never be mistaken for an Insider by any American (the colour of my skin is not a factor in that determination, for the same would apply to a white Croatian). Why, I myself do not want to be considered an Insider. That is because I AM NOT an Insider there. I enjoy all the constitutional rights the American citizen enjoys, I participate in some of their festivals, national events etc, and the American acknowledges that fact. But he and I both know that I am not an Insider in their framework. That is a privilege accorded those who have grown up as Insiders within that ecosystem. Another example of a different nature - several Americans have now learnt to play Indian Classical Music, and a handful have attained a fair degree of proficiency. But I would never mistake them to be Insiders in this tradition. The reach and the nuance attending someone born into this musical tradition is absent in the Outsider. It t
Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders
On 10/12/2007, CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Vidyadhar >This is just to say that I much enjoyed your article on Insiders and > Outsiders. You offer so much to chew over. However, I have a particular take > on what I consider to be the confused Catholic Goan identity consequent to > the Portuguese presence in Goa. I will share my thoughts with you privately > some time later. > Thank you again. > Cornel RESPONSE: The purpose of belonging to a group, requires you, to share your thoughts with all of us. It is only when it is considered, that the interchange is getting out of hand, that you may take your stuff off line, so to speak. Please be assured no disrespect meant or intended. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] Insiders and Outsiders
Hi Vidyadhar This is just to say that I much enjoyed your article on Insiders and Outsiders. You offer so much to chew over. However, I have a particular take on what I consider to be the confused Catholic Goan identity consequent to the Portuguese presence in Goa. I will share my thoughts with you privately some time later. Thank you again. Cornel Vidyadhar Gadgil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Gomantak Times, 8 December 2007 Insiders and Outsiders by Vidyadhar Gadgil One of the most popular subjects of public discourse in Goa is the Goan identity -- reams of newsprint, scholarly articles and even entire books are devoted to this subject, and it is a staple of innumerable seminars. The Goan identity is considered notoriously difficult to define, with remarkably few of the defining features that generally go into making a national identity. There are differences in language, religion and culture (the main markers of community or national identity), and also considerable overlaps with neighbouring states.
