Re: [google-appengine] NSA on Python Frameworks ?

['Alex Martelli' via Google App Engine]

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Johan Mutsaerts 
wrote:

> OK, but why ? Based on previous comments I am inclined to start learning
> Flask & Jinja2.
> I am still wondering about a Forms engine though (WTForms ?)
>

I don't have much experience with them, but it seems flask and WTForms
integrate well, e.g, see http://exploreflask.com/en/latest/forms.html .


Alex


>
> BR,
> Johan
>
> Op zaterdag 8 april 2017 11:39:52 UTC+2 schreef timh:
>
>> I will chuck in my 2c worth ;-)
>>
>> I prefer pyramid. (and chameleon)
>>
>> T
>>
>> On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 6:02:36 PM UTC+8, Alex Martelli wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Johan Mutsaerts 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Thanks Alex,

 Great you concur on GAE & Python as good choices for the enterprise web
 application developer's toolkit (perhaps a good title for a new book?).
 You seem to be in favor of a best of breed approach in separating
 template engine and framework, which eliminates the need for heavy lifting
 of full frameworks (like Django) in favor of leaner (faster) frameworks ?

>>>
>>> Yes, jinja2 (while similar to Django templates) is superior, there's no
>>> need to compromise on the templating front.
>>>
>>>
 I find it difficult to sort candidates in terms of obsolescence,
 popularity (community support), feature set, learning curve, GAE
 compatibility ... e.g.: pylons, pyramid ? webapp2, wbe2py ? jinja2, mako ?
 bottle, flask ?

>>>
>>> Django's by far the most popular Python web framework -- 1.7M web hits
>>> for a search [python django]. jinja2's also popular, but just 380k hits;
>>> flask, 570k. You can do more searches if you want to base your choice on
>>> popularity. Other indications is that there are conferences entirely
>>> devoted to Django but not ones entirely about other Python web frameworks.
>>>
>>>
 Is Django really the only framework for developers 'on a deadline' ? on
 GAE ? using NDB ? If I read you right, your preference goes to Flask and
 Jinja2 ? Can you elaborate a bit on the why's ?

>>>
>>> jinja2 gives me complete, accurate control of templating -- I'd never
>>> downgrade to any other templating system (if I am templating server-side at
>>> all -- these days it's often better to write the server side as a REST or
>>> other API server, and do all the UI work, templating or otherwise, on the
>>> Javascript client side on the browser).
>>>
>>> As for the framework (templating apart), I think flask is objectively
>>> superior, with a sharp and simple, though powerful, architecture. However
>>> personally I'm more used to webapp2, having used it for years, so if I'm
>>> doing a simple web app I'm more likely to reach for it -- habit's a
>>> powerful force:-). In any case, it will be a lightweight system because I
>>> don't have to "buy into" lots of architectural and design choices imbued in
>>> a rich/heavy framework, but rather can make my own choices depending on
>>> where I'm going to deploy and what (if anything) I need to optimize for.
>>> (Often, e.g for an internal dashboard which will have a few dozen users at
>>> most, there's no optimization needed at all -- then I can emphasize
>>> simplicity and speed of deployment -- just as an example).
>>>
>>>

 Good luck with the book and the conference.

>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>>
 TIA, Johan


 Op woensdag 5 april 2017 17:48:04 UTC+2 schreef Alex Martelli:
>
> Of course these questions are quite connected with personal opinion,
> and since I'm the author of "Python in a Nutshell" (3rd edition due out 
> any
> day now), you can guess where my bias lies:-). Still, FWIW, here are my
> opinions (hope others chime in!-)...:
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Johan Mutsaerts 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Starting your own company is never easy. A dream and a good idea is
>> needed but not sufficient. In my case, enterprise software development
>> skills for non-web applications need to be brushed up, so careful choices
>> to be made:
>> 1. GAE PaaS : AFAIK great value for little money, it simply works,
>> always, anywhere, no need for sysops
>>
>
> I concur (but I'm biased on this one too:-).
>
>
>> 2. Python : AFAIK highest productivity language, modular, functional,
>> object-oriented, popular
>>
>
> Ditto (in fact I'm right now in Florence, Italy, about to present a
> keynote at Pycon Italia Otto on Friday:-).
>
>
>> 3. Framework ? web2py, pyramid, django, web2app, jinja2 ? I need high
>> productivity, efficient use of Datastore noSQL, MVC ?, templates,
>> scaffolding, boilerplate code generation ...
>>
>
> My bias here is for *lightweight* frameworks, of which Flask is the
> most popular (webapp2, bottle and falcon are fine too) -- I devote an

Re: [google-appengine] NSA on Python Frameworks ?

[Johan Mutsaerts]

OK, but why ? Based on previous comments I am inclined to start learning 
Flask & Jinja2. 
I am still wondering about a Forms engine though (WTForms ?) 

BR,
Johan

Op zaterdag 8 april 2017 11:39:52 UTC+2 schreef timh:
>
> I will chuck in my 2c worth ;-)
>
> I prefer pyramid. (and chameleon)
>
> T
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 6:02:36 PM UTC+8, Alex Martelli wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Johan Mutsaerts  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Alex, 
>>>
>>> Great you concur on GAE & Python as good choices for the enterprise web 
>>> application developer's toolkit (perhaps a good title for a new book?).
>>> You seem to be in favor of a best of breed approach in separating 
>>> template engine and framework, which eliminates the need for heavy lifting 
>>> of full frameworks (like Django) in favor of leaner (faster) frameworks ? 
>>>
>>
>> Yes, jinja2 (while similar to Django templates) is superior, there's no 
>> need to compromise on the templating front.
>>  
>>
>>> I find it difficult to sort candidates in terms of obsolescence, 
>>> popularity (community support), feature set, learning curve, GAE 
>>> compatibility ... e.g.: pylons, pyramid ? webapp2, wbe2py ? jinja2, mako ? 
>>> bottle, flask ? 
>>>
>>
>> Django's by far the most popular Python web framework -- 1.7M web hits 
>> for a search [python django]. jinja2's also popular, but just 380k hits; 
>> flask, 570k. You can do more searches if you want to base your choice on 
>> popularity. Other indications is that there are conferences entirely 
>> devoted to Django but not ones entirely about other Python web frameworks.
>>  
>>
>>> Is Django really the only framework for developers 'on a deadline' ? on 
>>> GAE ? using NDB ? If I read you right, your preference goes to Flask and 
>>> Jinja2 ? Can you elaborate a bit on the why's ? 
>>>
>>
>> jinja2 gives me complete, accurate control of templating -- I'd never 
>> downgrade to any other templating system (if I am templating server-side at 
>> all -- these days it's often better to write the server side as a REST or 
>> other API server, and do all the UI work, templating or otherwise, on the 
>> Javascript client side on the browser).
>>
>> As for the framework (templating apart), I think flask is objectively 
>> superior, with a sharp and simple, though powerful, architecture. However 
>> personally I'm more used to webapp2, having used it for years, so if I'm 
>> doing a simple web app I'm more likely to reach for it -- habit's a 
>> powerful force:-). In any case, it will be a lightweight system because I 
>> don't have to "buy into" lots of architectural and design choices imbued in 
>> a rich/heavy framework, but rather can make my own choices depending on 
>> where I'm going to deploy and what (if anything) I need to optimize for. 
>> (Often, e.g for an internal dashboard which will have a few dozen users at 
>> most, there's no optimization needed at all -- then I can emphasize 
>> simplicity and speed of deployment -- just as an example).
>>  
>>
>>>
>>> Good luck with the book and the conference. 
>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>  
>>
>>> TIA, Johan
>>>
>>>
>>> Op woensdag 5 april 2017 17:48:04 UTC+2 schreef Alex Martelli:

 Of course these questions are quite connected with personal opinion, 
 and since I'm the author of "Python in a Nutshell" (3rd edition due out 
 any 
 day now), you can guess where my bias lies:-). Still, FWIW, here are my 
 opinions (hope others chime in!-)...:

 On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Johan Mutsaerts  
 wrote:

> Hi, 
>
> Starting your own company is never easy. A dream and a good idea is 
> needed but not sufficient. In my case, enterprise software development 
> skills for non-web applications need to be brushed up, so careful choices 
> to be made:
> 1. GAE PaaS : AFAIK great value for little money, it simply works, 
> always, anywhere, no need for sysops
>

 I concur (but I'm biased on this one too:-).
  

> 2. Python : AFAIK highest productivity language, modular, functional, 
> object-oriented, popular 
>

 Ditto (in fact I'm right now in Florence, Italy, about to present a 
 keynote at Pycon Italia Otto on Friday:-).
  

> 3. Framework ? web2py, pyramid, django, web2app, jinja2 ? I need high 
> productivity, efficient use of Datastore noSQL, MVC ?, templates, 
> scaffolding, boilerplate code generation ...  
>

 My bias here is for *lightweight* frameworks, of which Flask is the 
 most popular (webapp2, bottle and falcon are fine too) -- I devote an 
 entire chapter in the Nutshell 3rd ed to these four frameworks 
 (templating, 
 esp. jinjia2 which works well with them all but especially Flask, is 
 another chapter -- no sense to have templating as PART of a framework, any 
 more than it would to have the kitchen sink in 

Re: [google-appengine] NSA on Python Frameworks ?

[timh]

I will chuck in my 2c worth ;-)

I prefer pyramid. (and chameleon)

T

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 6:02:36 PM UTC+8, Alex Martelli wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Johan Mutsaerts  > wrote:
>
>> Thanks Alex, 
>>
>> Great you concur on GAE & Python as good choices for the enterprise web 
>> application developer's toolkit (perhaps a good title for a new book?).
>> You seem to be in favor of a best of breed approach in separating 
>> template engine and framework, which eliminates the need for heavy lifting 
>> of full frameworks (like Django) in favor of leaner (faster) frameworks ? 
>>
>
> Yes, jinja2 (while similar to Django templates) is superior, there's no 
> need to compromise on the templating front.
>  
>
>> I find it difficult to sort candidates in terms of obsolescence, 
>> popularity (community support), feature set, learning curve, GAE 
>> compatibility ... e.g.: pylons, pyramid ? webapp2, wbe2py ? jinja2, mako ? 
>> bottle, flask ? 
>>
>
> Django's by far the most popular Python web framework -- 1.7M web hits for 
> a search [python django]. jinja2's also popular, but just 380k hits; flask, 
> 570k. You can do more searches if you want to base your choice on 
> popularity. Other indications is that there are conferences entirely 
> devoted to Django but not ones entirely about other Python web frameworks.
>  
>
>> Is Django really the only framework for developers 'on a deadline' ? on 
>> GAE ? using NDB ? If I read you right, your preference goes to Flask and 
>> Jinja2 ? Can you elaborate a bit on the why's ? 
>>
>
> jinja2 gives me complete, accurate control of templating -- I'd never 
> downgrade to any other templating system (if I am templating server-side at 
> all -- these days it's often better to write the server side as a REST or 
> other API server, and do all the UI work, templating or otherwise, on the 
> Javascript client side on the browser).
>
> As for the framework (templating apart), I think flask is objectively 
> superior, with a sharp and simple, though powerful, architecture. However 
> personally I'm more used to webapp2, having used it for years, so if I'm 
> doing a simple web app I'm more likely to reach for it -- habit's a 
> powerful force:-). In any case, it will be a lightweight system because I 
> don't have to "buy into" lots of architectural and design choices imbued in 
> a rich/heavy framework, but rather can make my own choices depending on 
> where I'm going to deploy and what (if anything) I need to optimize for. 
> (Often, e.g for an internal dashboard which will have a few dozen users at 
> most, there's no optimization needed at all -- then I can emphasize 
> simplicity and speed of deployment -- just as an example).
>  
>
>>
>> Good luck with the book and the conference. 
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex
>
>  
>
>> TIA, Johan
>>
>>
>> Op woensdag 5 april 2017 17:48:04 UTC+2 schreef Alex Martelli:
>>>
>>> Of course these questions are quite connected with personal opinion, and 
>>> since I'm the author of "Python in a Nutshell" (3rd edition due out any day 
>>> now), you can guess where my bias lies:-). Still, FWIW, here are my 
>>> opinions (hope others chime in!-)...:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Johan Mutsaerts  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi, 

 Starting your own company is never easy. A dream and a good idea is 
 needed but not sufficient. In my case, enterprise software development 
 skills for non-web applications need to be brushed up, so careful choices 
 to be made:
 1. GAE PaaS : AFAIK great value for little money, it simply works, 
 always, anywhere, no need for sysops

>>>
>>> I concur (but I'm biased on this one too:-).
>>>  
>>>
 2. Python : AFAIK highest productivity language, modular, functional, 
 object-oriented, popular 

>>>
>>> Ditto (in fact I'm right now in Florence, Italy, about to present a 
>>> keynote at Pycon Italia Otto on Friday:-).
>>>  
>>>
 3. Framework ? web2py, pyramid, django, web2app, jinja2 ? I need high 
 productivity, efficient use of Datastore noSQL, MVC ?, templates, 
 scaffolding, boilerplate code generation ...  

>>>
>>> My bias here is for *lightweight* frameworks, of which Flask is the most 
>>> popular (webapp2, bottle and falcon are fine too) -- I devote an entire 
>>> chapter in the Nutshell 3rd ed to these four frameworks (templating, esp. 
>>> jinjia2 which works well with them all but especially Flask, is another 
>>> chapter -- no sense to have templating as PART of a framework, any more 
>>> than it would to have the kitchen sink in there, IMNSHO:-).
>>>
>>> I've wasted too much time in my life debugging boilerplate code 
>>> resulting from code generation: nowadays I insist on writing the code 
>>> myself in the first place (less likely to need debugging, and if it does at 
>>> least I should know why I coded the way I did, right?-). For Datastore 
>>> access, I use ndb (comes with 

Re: [google-appengine] NSA on Python Frameworks ?

['Alex Martelli' via Google App Engine]

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Johan Mutsaerts 
wrote:

> Thanks Alex,
>
> Great you concur on GAE & Python as good choices for the enterprise web
> application developer's toolkit (perhaps a good title for a new book?).
> You seem to be in favor of a best of breed approach in separating template
> engine and framework, which eliminates the need for heavy lifting of full
> frameworks (like Django) in favor of leaner (faster) frameworks ?
>

Yes, jinja2 (while similar to Django templates) is superior, there's no
need to compromise on the templating front.


> I find it difficult to sort candidates in terms of obsolescence,
> popularity (community support), feature set, learning curve, GAE
> compatibility ... e.g.: pylons, pyramid ? webapp2, wbe2py ? jinja2, mako ?
> bottle, flask ?
>

Django's by far the most popular Python web framework -- 1.7M web hits for
a search [python django]. jinja2's also popular, but just 380k hits; flask,
570k. You can do more searches if you want to base your choice on
popularity. Other indications is that there are conferences entirely
devoted to Django but not ones entirely about other Python web frameworks.


> Is Django really the only framework for developers 'on a deadline' ? on
> GAE ? using NDB ? If I read you right, your preference goes to Flask and
> Jinja2 ? Can you elaborate a bit on the why's ?
>

jinja2 gives me complete, accurate control of templating -- I'd never
downgrade to any other templating system (if I am templating server-side at
all -- these days it's often better to write the server side as a REST or
other API server, and do all the UI work, templating or otherwise, on the
Javascript client side on the browser).

As for the framework (templating apart), I think flask is objectively
superior, with a sharp and simple, though powerful, architecture. However
personally I'm more used to webapp2, having used it for years, so if I'm
doing a simple web app I'm more likely to reach for it -- habit's a
powerful force:-). In any case, it will be a lightweight system because I
don't have to "buy into" lots of architectural and design choices imbued in
a rich/heavy framework, but rather can make my own choices depending on
where I'm going to deploy and what (if anything) I need to optimize for.
(Often, e.g for an internal dashboard which will have a few dozen users at
most, there's no optimization needed at all -- then I can emphasize
simplicity and speed of deployment -- just as an example).


>
> Good luck with the book and the conference.
>

Thanks,

Alex



> TIA, Johan
>
>
> Op woensdag 5 april 2017 17:48:04 UTC+2 schreef Alex Martelli:
>>
>> Of course these questions are quite connected with personal opinion, and
>> since I'm the author of "Python in a Nutshell" (3rd edition due out any day
>> now), you can guess where my bias lies:-). Still, FWIW, here are my
>> opinions (hope others chime in!-)...:
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Johan Mutsaerts 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Starting your own company is never easy. A dream and a good idea is
>>> needed but not sufficient. In my case, enterprise software development
>>> skills for non-web applications need to be brushed up, so careful choices
>>> to be made:
>>> 1. GAE PaaS : AFAIK great value for little money, it simply works,
>>> always, anywhere, no need for sysops
>>>
>>
>> I concur (but I'm biased on this one too:-).
>>
>>
>>> 2. Python : AFAIK highest productivity language, modular, functional,
>>> object-oriented, popular
>>>
>>
>> Ditto (in fact I'm right now in Florence, Italy, about to present a
>> keynote at Pycon Italia Otto on Friday:-).
>>
>>
>>> 3. Framework ? web2py, pyramid, django, web2app, jinja2 ? I need high
>>> productivity, efficient use of Datastore noSQL, MVC ?, templates,
>>> scaffolding, boilerplate code generation ...
>>>
>>
>> My bias here is for *lightweight* frameworks, of which Flask is the most
>> popular (webapp2, bottle and falcon are fine too) -- I devote an entire
>> chapter in the Nutshell 3rd ed to these four frameworks (templating, esp.
>> jinjia2 which works well with them all but especially Flask, is another
>> chapter -- no sense to have templating as PART of a framework, any more
>> than it would to have the kitchen sink in there, IMNSHO:-).
>>
>> I've wasted too much time in my life debugging boilerplate code resulting
>> from code generation: nowadays I insist on writing the code myself in the
>> first place (less likely to need debugging, and if it does at least I
>> should know why I coded the way I did, right?-). For Datastore access, I
>> use ndb (comes with App Engine Python, and was originally authored by Guido
>> van Rossum), not any framework that was designed to talk SQL and gets
>> shoehorned into NoSql willy-nilly:-)...
>>
>>
>>> I want to invest the time and effort to re-tool and up-skill, but as a
>>> *N*ewbie *S*eeking *A*dvice on Python Frameworks, I could use some
>>> solid advice from you.
>>>
>>

Re: [google-appengine] NSA on Python Frameworks ?

[Johan Mutsaerts]

Thanks Alex, 

Great you concur on GAE & Python as good choices for the enterprise web 
application developer's toolkit (perhaps a good title for a new book?).
You seem to be in favor of a best of breed approach in separating template 
engine and framework, which eliminates the need for heavy lifting of full 
frameworks (like Django) in favor of leaner (faster) frameworks ? 
I find it difficult to sort candidates in terms of obsolescence, popularity 
(community support), feature set, learning curve, GAE compatibility ... 
e.g.: pylons, pyramid ? webapp2, wbe2py ? jinja2, mako ? bottle, flask ? 
Is Django really the only framework for developers 'on a deadline' ? on GAE 
? using NDB ? If I read you right, your preference goes to Flask and Jinja2 
? Can you elaborate a bit on the why's ? 

Good luck with the book and the conference. 
TIA, Johan


Op woensdag 5 april 2017 17:48:04 UTC+2 schreef Alex Martelli:
>
> Of course these questions are quite connected with personal opinion, and 
> since I'm the author of "Python in a Nutshell" (3rd edition due out any day 
> now), you can guess where my bias lies:-). Still, FWIW, here are my 
> opinions (hope others chime in!-)...:
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Johan Mutsaerts  > wrote:
>
>> Hi, 
>>
>> Starting your own company is never easy. A dream and a good idea is 
>> needed but not sufficient. In my case, enterprise software development 
>> skills for non-web applications need to be brushed up, so careful choices 
>> to be made:
>> 1. GAE PaaS : AFAIK great value for little money, it simply works, 
>> always, anywhere, no need for sysops
>>
>
> I concur (but I'm biased on this one too:-).
>  
>
>> 2. Python : AFAIK highest productivity language, modular, functional, 
>> object-oriented, popular 
>>
>
> Ditto (in fact I'm right now in Florence, Italy, about to present a 
> keynote at Pycon Italia Otto on Friday:-).
>  
>
>> 3. Framework ? web2py, pyramid, django, web2app, jinja2 ? I need high 
>> productivity, efficient use of Datastore noSQL, MVC ?, templates, 
>> scaffolding, boilerplate code generation ...  
>>
>
> My bias here is for *lightweight* frameworks, of which Flask is the most 
> popular (webapp2, bottle and falcon are fine too) -- I devote an entire 
> chapter in the Nutshell 3rd ed to these four frameworks (templating, esp. 
> jinjia2 which works well with them all but especially Flask, is another 
> chapter -- no sense to have templating as PART of a framework, any more 
> than it would to have the kitchen sink in there, IMNSHO:-).
>
> I've wasted too much time in my life debugging boilerplate code resulting 
> from code generation: nowadays I insist on writing the code myself in the 
> first place (less likely to need debugging, and if it does at least I 
> should know why I coded the way I did, right?-). For Datastore access, I 
> use ndb (comes with App Engine Python, and was originally authored by Guido 
> van Rossum), not any framework that was designed to talk SQL and gets 
> shoehorned into NoSql willy-nilly:-)...
>  
>
>> I want to invest the time and effort to re-tool and up-skill, but as a 
>> *N*ewbie *S*eeking *A*dvice on Python Frameworks, I could use some solid 
>> advice from you.
>>
>
> HTH!
>
> Alex
>  
>
>>
>> Thx & BR.
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Google App Engine" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to google-appengi...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to google-a...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/0297273b-5c6e-4586-96a9-72f78f4a34d4%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [google-appengine] NSA on Python Frameworks ?

['Alex Martelli' via Google App Engine]

Of course these questions are quite connected with personal opinion, and
since I'm the author of "Python in a Nutshell" (3rd edition due out any day
now), you can guess where my bias lies:-). Still, FWIW, here are my
opinions (hope others chime in!-)...:

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Johan Mutsaerts 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Starting your own company is never easy. A dream and a good idea is needed
> but not sufficient. In my case, enterprise software development skills for
> non-web applications need to be brushed up, so careful choices to be made:
> 1. GAE PaaS : AFAIK great value for little money, it simply works, always,
> anywhere, no need for sysops
>

I concur (but I'm biased on this one too:-).


> 2. Python : AFAIK highest productivity language, modular, functional,
> object-oriented, popular
>

Ditto (in fact I'm right now in Florence, Italy, about to present a keynote
at Pycon Italia Otto on Friday:-).


> 3. Framework ? web2py, pyramid, django, web2app, jinja2 ? I need high
> productivity, efficient use of Datastore noSQL, MVC ?, templates,
> scaffolding, boilerplate code generation ...
>

My bias here is for *lightweight* frameworks, of which Flask is the most
popular (webapp2, bottle and falcon are fine too) -- I devote an entire
chapter in the Nutshell 3rd ed to these four frameworks (templating, esp.
jinjia2 which works well with them all but especially Flask, is another
chapter -- no sense to have templating as PART of a framework, any more
than it would to have the kitchen sink in there, IMNSHO:-).

I've wasted too much time in my life debugging boilerplate code resulting
from code generation: nowadays I insist on writing the code myself in the
first place (less likely to need debugging, and if it does at least I
should know why I coded the way I did, right?-). For Datastore access, I
use ndb (comes with App Engine Python, and was originally authored by Guido
van Rossum), not any framework that was designed to talk SQL and gets
shoehorned into NoSql willy-nilly:-)...


> I want to invest the time and effort to re-tool and up-skill, but as a 
> *N*ewbie
> *S*eeking *A*dvice on Python Frameworks, I could use some solid advice
> from you.
>

HTH!

Alex


>
> Thx & BR.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Google App Engine" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/google-appengine/0297273b-5c6e-4586-96a9-
> 72f78f4a34d4%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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[google-appengine] NSA on Python Frameworks ?

[Johan Mutsaerts]

Hi, 

Starting your own company is never easy. A dream and a good idea is needed 
but not sufficient. In my case, enterprise software development skills for 
non-web applications need to be brushed up, so careful choices to be made:
1. GAE PaaS : AFAIK great value for little money, it simply works, always, 
anywhere, no need for sysops
2. Python : AFAIK highest productivity language, modular, functional, 
object-oriented, popular 
3. Framework ? web2py, pyramid, django, web2app, jinja2 ? I need high 
productivity, efficient use of Datastore noSQL, MVC ?, templates, 
scaffolding, boilerplate code generation ...  
I want to invest the time and effort to re-tool and up-skill, but as a *N*ewbie 
*S*eeking *A*dvice on Python Frameworks, I could use some solid advice from 
you.

Thx & BR.

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