[google-appengine] Re: How far can Google take this thing?
GAE is certainly a refreshing development. most of the code we write are redundant, in the sense, some place its already written, but we still keep writing it because we need to use it in *our* own context. though we do resue code by using packaged libraries, there is significant code for plumbing, etc. The other side is ofcourse deployment. Huge costs go into running a data center. though the hosted farms solve this to an extent, GAE's level of abstraction is fascinating. I mean why bother about that particular RDBMS, or this particular hard disk size, or this specific processor running that particular OS version? and which patch, and which release. I mean think about this wehere you have more than a handful of servers. you will be spending time and money on something unrelated to business. GAE is welcome change in the IT/development world. wishing it all success. --GS http://code-almighty.blogspot.com On Dec 6, 3:44 pm, kang areyouloo...@gmail.com wrote: a very good post On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 2:42 AM, rvjcallanan vinc...@callanan.ie wrote: I am about to take the GAE plunge (at least in the experimentation sense). I understand the current irritations and I am hopeful that these will be overcome in due course But I am very curious how far Google can take this thing... A key question on everyone's mind: Can we assume that GAE developers will eventually be able to produce GAE apps with similar complexity, reliability, scalability and performance ballparks as Gmail, subject of course to hosting fees? If the answer to that question is YES, then I am am convinced that GAE will eventually be able to host sophisticated financial applications that are not currently in the GAE sweetspot, e.g. accounts, payroll, etc Or would it be more realistic to assume that GAE developers will never really be able to leverage what Gmail's developers can leverage? Looking beyond the Gmail comparison, I see lots of problems with the GAE datastore for financial applications e.g. the absence of joins, aggregation, etc. I understand that these limitations are inherent to the BigTable paradigm, yet I already see posts by developers showing how these limitations can be overcome. Solutions tend to revolve around de-normalisation and other forms of data redundancy together with a sizable smattering of code trickery. All very, very botchy and alien to the GAE philosophy of removing much of the the tedium of web development. I am wondering if it will ever be possible to write an abstraction layer that will present the underlying GAE datastore as an SQL database albeit at a cost in terms of data efficiency, CPU cycles and bandwidth...or is this completely missing the point? Bear in mind that I am thinking a few years down the road. -- Stay hungry,Stay foolish.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: How far can Google take this thing?
a very good post On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 2:42 AM, rvjcallanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am about to take the GAE plunge (at least in the experimentation sense). I understand the current irritations and I am hopeful that these will be overcome in due course But I am very curious how far Google can take this thing... A key question on everyone's mind: Can we assume that GAE developers will eventually be able to produce GAE apps with similar complexity, reliability, scalability and performance ballparks as Gmail, subject of course to hosting fees? If the answer to that question is YES, then I am am convinced that GAE will eventually be able to host sophisticated financial applications that are not currently in the GAE sweetspot, e.g. accounts, payroll, etc Or would it be more realistic to assume that GAE developers will never really be able to leverage what Gmail's developers can leverage? Looking beyond the Gmail comparison, I see lots of problems with the GAE datastore for financial applications e.g. the absence of joins, aggregation, etc. I understand that these limitations are inherent to the BigTable paradigm, yet I already see posts by developers showing how these limitations can be overcome. Solutions tend to revolve around de-normalisation and other forms of data redundancy together with a sizable smattering of code trickery. All very, very botchy and alien to the GAE philosophy of removing much of the the tedium of web development. I am wondering if it will ever be possible to write an abstraction layer that will present the underlying GAE datastore as an SQL database albeit at a cost in terms of data efficiency, CPU cycles and bandwidth...or is this completely missing the point? Bear in mind that I am thinking a few years down the road. -- Stay hungry,Stay foolish. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: How far can Google take this thing?
I think the answer really depends on how much Google is willing to invest in GAE. Eventually could be two years from now or ten years from now, but if its the later they may miss the boat considering there are numerous big names and no names all moving into this space. One of those big names is Microsoft, and while they are just getting into this space, one thing they do really well is getting application developers to target their platforms. In my opinion Google has a long way to go in that respect. After using GAE's platform for the last few months I can honestly say that the only thing I like about it is that I haven't had to pay for the hosting of my app. Sure getting an app going that fits with-in the quite limited confines of what GAE supports well is quite easy, but it doesn't take much to smack into GAE's walls and then it becomes very much a square peg in round whole experience where doing things that would be quite simple on other platforms is quite difficult on GAE or even impossible without getting shutdown due to going over CPU quota. Josh On Dec 5, 10:42 am, rvjcallanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am about to take the GAE plunge (at least in the experimentation sense). I understand the current irritations and I am hopeful that these will be overcome in due course But I am very curious how far Google can take this thing... A key question on everyone's mind: Can we assume that GAE developers will eventually be able to produce GAE apps with similar complexity, reliability, scalability and performance ballparks as Gmail, subject of course to hosting fees? If the answer to that question is YES, then I am am convinced that GAE will eventually be able to host sophisticated financial applications that are not currently in the GAE sweetspot, e.g. accounts, payroll, etc Or would it be more realistic to assume that GAE developers will never really be able to leverage what Gmail's developers can leverage? Looking beyond the Gmail comparison, I see lots of problems with the GAE datastore for financial applications e.g. the absence of joins, aggregation, etc. I understand that these limitations are inherent to the BigTable paradigm, yet I already see posts by developers showing how these limitations can be overcome. Solutions tend to revolve around de-normalisation and other forms of data redundancy together with a sizable smattering of code trickery. All very, very botchy and alien to the GAE philosophy of removing much of the the tedium of web development. I am wondering if it will ever be possible to write an abstraction layer that will present the underlying GAE datastore as an SQL database albeit at a cost in terms of data efficiency, CPU cycles and bandwidth...or is this completely missing the point? Bear in mind that I am thinking a few years down the road. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: How far can Google take this thing?
Thank you for your reply Siva...a good deal more than 2c's worth! I have also checked out AWS and I agree that right now it is infinitely more flexible. But Google has definitely put the cat among the pigeons with the GAE paradigm and I think that this is ultimately the level of abstraction at which developers will want to work at. I feel the current data store limitations are a legacy of Google's business focus and there is no reason why they (or a competitor) cannot offer an alternative tighter datastore optimised for financial applications and such like, perhaps at the expense of geographical redundancy which I think is over-rated for the vast majority of web applications. If not, I can see Amazon or Microsoft filling that gap very quickly. It concerns me the way Google has launched this service. It could very easily backfire and drive a lot of developers away although that is probably underestimating the loyalty of Google's user base - but that can only get you so far! Google has set a very high bar and will need a massive development effort to get this service out of the labs and into the real world. At a very mundane level, the absence of a fixed currency/decimal data type sort of sums up my concerns about Google's priorities with the GAE. Of course Python has also been slow in addressing this anomaly! When will respected computer scientists realise that floats simply don't hack it in financial applications? I have a lot of respect for Google and I do hope that GAE makes it to prime time - but the GAE strategists need to look beyond their limited world view and hammer out a concrete roadmap which will demonstrate how this wonderful initiative can be applied to wider applications, e.g. accounting, payroll, etc. Rgds, rvjcallanan On Dec 5, 7:15 pm, Siva Velusamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are some of my thoughts. I have built only 1 application (http:// envy.appspot.com), and we didn't spend too much time on but, but I see a few issues with GAE. GAE makes you focus on scalability right from the start. This is annoying because of the following reasons: - over 90% of the websites don't require it. - When I build something around an idea, my initial requirement is to get it out to people first, and then worry about scalability...if there is any traction. I don't see why I have to first optimize it without knowing whether it is worthwhile. - GAE also makes it tough to figure out if your app will get any traction. This is because as soon as you launch an app, it will possibly go over quota (esp. high cpu) and you cannot advertise your website until after you've fixed it. The next issue, is that your preferred language/runtime/library/etc will never be available on GAE. GAE relies on modified version of certain runtimes, and no matter how many people work on it, it won't support everything. Take for instance, Py3k. It will probably be a while before it is supported. The third issue is the lack of flexibility. You are forced to follow the GAE methodology - whether it be optimizing your site, or running background tasks (when it is supported), or anything else. You could think of 10 different ways to do it, but GAE will probably only support only 1 of those, and you'll have to learn quite a bit to figure that out. Which is fine technically, but not that great when time to market is your primary concern. I think that GAE is perfectly fine if you know exactly what you want, and you know that all your requirements are already satisfied by GAE. If your requirements could possibly vary, then it is tough to predict whether it will be supported, or how much effort will be required on your part. In that regard, I find the Amazon EC2 approach to be infinitely more flexible. My 2c. (And keep in mind I'm still learning, so these impressions may not be accurate). -Siva On Dec 5, 10:42 am, rvjcallanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am about to take the GAE plunge (at least in the experimentation sense). I understand the current irritations and I am hopeful that these will be overcome in due course But I am very curious how far Google can take this thing... A key question on everyone's mind: Can we assume that GAE developers will eventually be able to produce GAE apps with similar complexity, reliability, scalability and performance ballparks as Gmail, subject of course to hosting fees? If the answer to that question is YES, then I am am convinced that GAE will eventually be able to host sophisticated financial applications that are not currently in the GAE sweetspot, e.g. accounts, payroll, etc Or would it be more realistic to assume that GAE developers will never really be able to leverage what Gmail's developers can leverage? Looking beyond the Gmail comparison, I see lots of problems with the GAE datastore for financial applications e.g. the absence of joins, aggregation, etc. I understand that these limitations are inherent
[google-appengine] Re: How far can Google take this thing?
Josh, I think you've hit the nail on the head..how much is Google willing to invest? GAE will never be a core priority for a search/advertising company! rvjcallanan On Dec 5, 8:32 pm, Josh Heitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the answer really depends on how much Google is willing to invest in GAE. Eventually could be two years from now or ten years from now, but if its the later they may miss the boat considering there are numerous big names and no names all moving into this space. One of those big names is Microsoft, and while they are just getting into this space, one thing they do really well is getting application developers to target their platforms. In my opinion Google has a long way to go in that respect. After using GAE's platform for the last few months I can honestly say that the only thing I like about it is that I haven't had to pay for the hosting of my app. Sure getting an app going that fits with-in the quite limited confines of what GAE supports well is quite easy, but it doesn't take much to smack into GAE's walls and then it becomes very much a square peg in round whole experience where doing things that would be quite simple on other platforms is quite difficult on GAE or even impossible without getting shutdown due to going over CPU quota. Josh On Dec 5, 10:42 am, rvjcallanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am about to take the GAE plunge (at least in the experimentation sense). I understand the current irritations and I am hopeful that these will be overcome in due course But I am very curious how far Google can take this thing... A key question on everyone's mind: Can we assume that GAE developers will eventually be able to produce GAE apps with similar complexity, reliability, scalability and performance ballparks as Gmail, subject of course to hosting fees? If the answer to that question is YES, then I am am convinced that GAE will eventually be able to host sophisticated financial applications that are not currently in the GAE sweetspot, e.g. accounts, payroll, etc Or would it be more realistic to assume that GAE developers will never really be able to leverage what Gmail's developers can leverage? Looking beyond the Gmail comparison, I see lots of problems with the GAE datastore for financial applications e.g. the absence of joins, aggregation, etc. I understand that these limitations are inherent to the BigTable paradigm, yet I already see posts by developers showing how these limitations can be overcome. Solutions tend to revolve around de-normalisation and other forms of data redundancy together with a sizable smattering of code trickery. All very, very botchy and alien to the GAE philosophy of removing much of the the tedium of web development. I am wondering if it will ever be possible to write an abstraction layer that will present the underlying GAE datastore as an SQL database albeit at a cost in terms of data efficiency, CPU cycles and bandwidth...or is this completely missing the point? Bear in mind that I am thinking a few years down the road. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: How far can Google take this thing?
I honestly have no idea what Google's intentions are, I myself am very new to web2.0, the cloud, ajax, etc. But in my limited experience with app engine so far I'd say it's an excellent platform for small specific purpose applications, say the type of app created by a developer in there spare time. I would of never attempted to develop the app I'm currently working on without knowing that I could host it free on the app engine framework. Would I recommend using it for a large scale production system, hmmm, probably not yet, but that's really only due to the CPU quotas. In future I believe we'll start seeing a lot more small applications that may not have existed had it not been for free hosting services such as app engine. Bouncing off the CPU limits is frustrating, but it does make you focus on efficient design up front. Agreed scalability may not be necessary for 99% of apps developed, but I feel better knowing that my app can scale if it ever gets the traffic I hope it will receive. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
