[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[JH]

I've seen it mentioned here before that Google's RAM is made with
solid gold.  Not sure if it's true or not...

On Dec 14, 6:50 am, John  wrote:
> Just started thinking about this... but now that we are basically paying
> for all the datastore reads/writes, and bandwidth separately...
>
> Isn't paying $60 a month for a 600 MHZ instance with only 128 MB ram a
> little expensive?
>
> Just taking a quick glance at EBAY, I can buy a > 2 GHZ machines with over
> a GB of memory all day long.
> I can buy BRAND NEW Intel Atom Dual-Core D525 Processor(1.8GHz, 1MB L2
> Cache), Support Intel Hyper-Threading technology,
> with 1GB memory for ~ $160 all day 
> longhttp://www.amazon.com/SHUTTLE-XS35V2-PC-Barebone-System/dp/B004XJCCQO...
>
> Call me crazy, but I still have my 1 GHZ pc I bought back in 1999 (12 years
> ago) sitting in the garage and I would have a problem giving it away (It
> also has a lot more memory than 128 MB ram).
>
> A standard (small) SAME PRICEd Amazon EC2 instance comes with 1.7 GB of
> memory and even their FREE micro instance gives you 613 MB of memory.
>
> I understand computers were a lot more expensive back in 1999, but they
> have gotten a lot cheaper over the past few years.
>
> Please justify what I am paying for because right now I am trying to
> justify upgrading to the F2 instance class for twice the price ($120/month)
> just so I can double up and get a whopping 256MB ram!

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[bFlood]

exactly jeff, well put.

On Dec 14, 10:36 am, Jeff Schnitzer  wrote:
> I think there is a legitimate gripe here which is that large-memory
> instances are unreasonably expensive.
>
> There's some significant value-add for GAE's "whole package" -
> automatic scaling, memcache, edge caching, deployment system, API
> access (although these APIs are generally charged separately).  This
> makes the $60/mo for a basic (multithreaded) instance worthwhile.
> It's expensive but it's convenient, and most frontend work fits fine
> in the F1.  Also it's a little bit of apples/oranges because the GAE #
> is heap whereas an Amazon # is VM size, but this is probably less than
> a factor of 2 difference.
>
> On the other hand, there are many application components whose primary
> requirement is a significant chunk of RAM.  All that Google
> infrastructure is nice but it isn't nice enough to warrant a 10X
> premium just for a measly 1G of RAM.  And you can't even get more.
> Seriously, a cheap amazon "standard" instance has significantly more
> RAM than the most expensive GAE instance... lame.
>
> Consequently, backends are useful as a long-running frontend, but
> absolutely useless as an in-memory index.  We're priced into going the
> inconvenient route of placing memory indexes in other cloud services.
>
> I've been generally accepting of GAE's recent pricing changes, but the
> price of large-memory instances basically means I have to treat that
> option as if it doesn't exist.  Which means when Google adds all these
> fancy features to support different kinds of instances, from my
> perspective, they're wasting their time.  I can't use them until they
> make them cheaper.
>
> So here's my plea:  a 256MB instance shouldn't cost twice as much as a
> 128MB instance, and a 512MB instance shouldn't cost twice as much as a
> 256MB instance.  The price curve should drop off.  There's a
> reasonable premium to pay for running on GAE, but a factor of 10 isn't
> it.
>
> Just for comparison... the largest GAE backend, at 1G, costs $460/mo.
> A 1.5G linode instance costs $60/mo.  And I can get a 4G linode
> instance for $160/mo.  And while it's not exactly an apples/apples
> comparison, when I need RAM, the priority of all those other Google
> niceties goes down considerably.  And if I needed (say) four 1G
> backends, you can absolutely bet that I will go with Linode and pocket
> the extra $20k per year.
>
> Jeff

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Vivek Puri]

Great points Jeff. Double pricing for double CPU and memory is very
similar to Mac pricing on memory. So, what do new Mac buyers do? They
just get the lowest memory possible and get the cheapest memory deal
from ebay. Unfortunately, we cannot do that here.

On Dec 14, 10:36 am, Jeff Schnitzer  wrote:
> I think there is a legitimate gripe here which is that large-memory
> instances are unreasonably expensive.
>
> There's some significant value-add for GAE's "whole package" -
> automatic scaling, memcache, edge caching, deployment system, API
> access (although these APIs are generally charged separately).  This
> makes the $60/mo for a basic (multithreaded) instance worthwhile.
> It's expensive but it's convenient, and most frontend work fits fine
> in the F1.  Also it's a little bit of apples/oranges because the GAE #
> is heap whereas an Amazon # is VM size, but this is probably less than
> a factor of 2 difference.
>
> On the other hand, there are many application components whose primary
> requirement is a significant chunk of RAM.  All that Google
> infrastructure is nice but it isn't nice enough to warrant a 10X
> premium just for a measly 1G of RAM.  And you can't even get more.
> Seriously, a cheap amazon "standard" instance has significantly more
> RAM than the most expensive GAE instance... lame.
>
> Consequently, backends are useful as a long-running frontend, but
> absolutely useless as an in-memory index.  We're priced into going the
> inconvenient route of placing memory indexes in other cloud services.
>
> I've been generally accepting of GAE's recent pricing changes, but the
> price of large-memory instances basically means I have to treat that
> option as if it doesn't exist.  Which means when Google adds all these
> fancy features to support different kinds of instances, from my
> perspective, they're wasting their time.  I can't use them until they
> make them cheaper.
>
> So here's my plea:  a 256MB instance shouldn't cost twice as much as a
> 128MB instance, and a 512MB instance shouldn't cost twice as much as a
> 256MB instance.  The price curve should drop off.  There's a
> reasonable premium to pay for running on GAE, but a factor of 10 isn't
> it.
>
> Just for comparison... the largest GAE backend, at 1G, costs $460/mo.
> A 1.5G linode instance costs $60/mo.  And I can get a 4G linode
> instance for $160/mo.  And while it's not exactly an apples/apples
> comparison, when I need RAM, the priority of all those other Google
> niceties goes down considerably.  And if I needed (say) four 1G
> backends, you can absolutely bet that I will go with Linode and pocket
> the extra $20k per year.
>
> Jeff

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[mike hershey]

I'm with you, this absolutely nuts. I got on board before all this new 
pricing stuff, round 1 new pricing just barely didn't scare me away, but 
this definitely did. I'm getting off app engine ASAP. So much about app 
engine seems like a scam. $1/million database writes, BUT a write is AT 
LEAST 2 writes when they charge you. Why can't we call it what it is? Make 
it $5/million writes and all writes are 1 operation. I know then your not 
rewarding people who remove composite indexes and optimize but it just 
seems dishonest that there are no write operations that use just 1 write. 

Also in my app app engine often spins up idle instances (that I cannot get 
rid of no matter what I configure) and send them exactly 1 request every 15 
minutes so that I'm being charged the whole time for this instance I don't 
want.

I hung around hoping things would get better, but I'm off now.

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Vivek Puri]

Saving your hard earned $$s doesnt equate to cheapskates. I just want
worth of my $$s that i earned after hours of toiling in front of a
screen. Sometimes 16 hours per day.

On Dec 14, 12:38 pm, Joshua Smith  wrote:
> No, new Mac buyers get what the kid at the store tells them to get, and never 
> open their mac, or buy memory from ebay.
>
> If they were cheapskates, they'd be buying a PC that looks like a Mac on the 
> outside, and costs a ton less.
>
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 12:26 PM, Vivek Puri wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Great points Jeff. Double pricing for double CPU and memory is very
> > similar to Mac pricing on memory. So, what do new Mac buyers do? They
> > just get the lowest memory possible and get the cheapest memory deal
> > from ebay. Unfortunately, we cannot do that here.

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Vivek Puri]

I had hoped that AppEngine team will say - all of you guys are on F2
instances that cost $.08. I guess i was naive. So, all of us now by
default end up on these crappy instances that cannot run your code,
and pretty soon will be forced to upgrade to $.16 instances. Its very
similar to a worthless currency. Want to get 1 cup of coffee for 1
million YadaYadaDollars? Oh yeah, bring it on baby! Heck, even iPhone
1 came with same memory.


On Dec 14, 12:32 pm, Jeff Schnitzer  wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Vivek Puri  wrote:
> > Great points Jeff. Double pricing for double CPU and memory is very
> > similar to Mac pricing on memory. So, what do new Mac buyers do? They
> > just get the lowest memory possible and get the cheapest memory deal
> > from ebay. Unfortunately, we cannot do that here.
>
> With other cloud providers and the Remote API you *totally* can do
> that here.  It's actually quite easy.  It's just lame.
>
> Jeff

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Vivek Puri]

Looking at Heroku, they offer instance for $.05 with 512mb RAM. Dont
see any wording asking for minimum hours of commitment. Besides that,
this minimum hours of commitment is such a pain. As i discovered, you
cannot increase/decrease hours at will. Any changes you make today, it
does not come into effect till next week. All these changes are
turning out to be very un-Google, and makes me feel i am dealing with
Verizon.

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[pdknsk]

You can get 8GB RAM for less than $40 now. Google probably pays $20.

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[John]

When it comes to writes I call it the "times two phenomenon". I have NO 
IDEA why you can't do anything that is not 2 writes???

e.g.
If you have a very simple Entity with 5 properties (none set to the NON 
default status of Unindexed) and you save it, it is 12 writes.


Key Write 
OpsID/Name
firstName
four 
lastName
six 
three
agtwaXhvdG8tbGl2ZXILCxIEVGVzdBiNAQw12141JoedoorBobsticksfree

So you get slammed with 12 writes. Each property is 2 writes.


Here is a PropertyLess Entity
KeyWrite
 
OpsID/Name
agtwaXhvdG8tbGl2ZXITCxIMUHJvcGVydHlMZXNzGI4BDA2142

2 writes.  Who needs properties anyhow?  That would mean you could query on 
them.  Queries return results, results are reads. Reads cost money.  

Oh wait, that is what memcache is for... wait a sec, memcache took down my 
whole site Monday from MemcacheServiceExceptions

http://code.google.com/status/appengine/detail/memcache/2011/12/12#ae-trust-detail-memcache-get-latency


"Also in my app app engine often spins up idle instances (that I cannot get 
rid of no matter what I configure) and send them exactly 1 request every 15 
minutes so that I'm being charged the whole time for this instance I don't 
want."

This happens to me also... Why is it if you have 6 instances, 2 of them get 
most of the requests 3 of them get none and occasionally App Engine will 
start up a 7th instance while the idle 3 still get nothing? 


Don't get me wrong. I LOVE what App Engine stands for and I have all the 
respect in the world for the App Engine team.  BUT, I have been through SO 
much grief ranging from random app engine problems to having to migrate to 
an HR datastore to dramatic increases in pricing.  When I signed up for 
this (old pricing), I thought the pricing would eventually get better 
(almost like gmail and disk space), but instead it went the opposite.  Had 
my experience been perfect here and my app had run flawlessly all this 
time, I would have had no gripes and shut up and spent the extra cash 
without blinking.  But, instead I have experienced hair loosing problems, 
massive variations in performance and got stuck with a much larger bill.

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[André Pankraz]

the main problem with heroku seems to be that they start with a minimum of 
200$ a month for the database - not very open source friendly?! it pays off 
if you use 1 TB data. Maybe I miss cheaper options there.

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[mike hershey]

One last thing that is incredibly evil: paying customers do have an SLA, 
BUT if the SLA is not met its your responsibility to complain to Google to 
get credit towards your next month bill, and they don't have a metric of 
monthly uptime anywhere. To be able to claim against the SLA, I have to 
keep my own metrics of uptime.

Way to really stand behind your product Google. 

And if its not met:

   Monthly Uptime PercentagePercentage of monthly bill credited to future 
   monthly bills of Customer99.00% – < 99.95%10%95.00% – < 99.00%25%< 95.00%
   50%
   
   
   

   But thats ok I'm sure they tell you who to contact:


   "To notify Google of SLA Financial Credit eligibility, please see the 
   Documentation." 

- http://code.google.com/appengine/sla.html

I couldn't even imagine how mad I would be if my service was only up 95% of 
the time, and they only refunded 50% of my costs. 


   Its really just embarrassing. Get your shit together, get a real SLA 
   that allows you to stand behind your product, lower the prices, and stop 
   being evil. 

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Andrei]

Goog only very recently switched to new pricing and they need to see
how it sells
It is probably will not sell good and significant number of people
will leave
So after they figure  it out they'll make it cheaper, they'll have to
It will probably take at least half year for them to figure current
pricing model is bad

I know it does not sound good, but they better do same as AWS for
pricing
Make trial for something like 6 month and after that no more free apps
This way prices spread more evenly for everybody and eliminate stupid
9/month fee
But only time will show

Also why can not they just sell virtual servers like AWS

On Dec 14, 6:50 am, John  wrote:
> Just started thinking about this... but now that we are basically paying
> for all the datastore reads/writes, and bandwidth separately...
>
> Isn't paying $60 a month for a 600 MHZ instance with only 128 MB ram a
> little expensive?
>
> Just taking a quick glance at EBAY, I can buy a > 2 GHZ machines with over
> a GB of memory all day long.
> I can buy BRAND NEW Intel Atom Dual-Core D525 Processor(1.8GHz, 1MB L2
> Cache), Support Intel Hyper-Threading technology,
> with 1GB memory for ~ $160 all day 
> longhttp://www.amazon.com/SHUTTLE-XS35V2-PC-Barebone-System/dp/B004XJCCQO...
>
> Call me crazy, but I still have my 1 GHZ pc I bought back in 1999 (12 years
> ago) sitting in the garage and I would have a problem giving it away (It
> also has a lot more memory than 128 MB ram).
>
> A standard (small) SAME PRICEd Amazon EC2 instance comes with 1.7 GB of
> memory and even their FREE micro instance gives you 613 MB of memory.
>
> I understand computers were a lot more expensive back in 1999, but they
> have gotten a lot cheaper over the past few years.
>
> Please justify what I am paying for because right now I am trying to
> justify upgrading to the F2 instance class for twice the price ($120/month)
> just so I can double up and get a whopping 256MB ram!

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[jon]

John, by default MemcacheServiceException should not be thrown and
take down anyone's site. It's a bug (that has affected my site in the
past too).

I've filed a bug report here:
http://code.google.com/p/googleappengine/issues/detail?id=6236

On Dec 15, 7:58 am, John  wrote:
> When it comes to writes I call it the "times two phenomenon". I have NO
> IDEA why you can't do anything that is not 2 writes???
>
> e.g.
> If you have a very simple Entity with 5 properties (none set to the NON
> default status of Unindexed) and you save it, it is 12 writes.
>
> Key Write
> OpsID/Name
> firstName
> four 
> lastName
> six 
> three
> agtwaXhvdG8tbGl2ZXILCxIEVGVzdBiNAQw12141JoedoorBobsticksfree
>
> So you get slammed with 12 writes. Each property is 2 writes.
>
> Here is a PropertyLess Entity
> KeyWrite
> OpsID/Name
> agtwaXhvdG8tbGl2ZXITCxIMUHJvcGVydHlMZXNzGI4BDA2142
>
> 2 writes.  Who needs properties anyhow?  That would mean you could query on
> them.  Queries return results, results are reads. Reads cost money.
>
> Oh wait, that is what memcache is for... wait a sec, memcache took down my
> whole site Monday from MemcacheServiceExceptions
>
> http://code.google.com/status/appengine/detail/memcache/2011/12/12#ae...
>
> "Also in my app app engine often spins up idle instances (that I cannot get
> rid of no matter what I configure) and send them exactly 1 request every 15
> minutes so that I'm being charged the whole time for this instance I don't
> want."
>
> This happens to me also... Why is it if you have 6 instances, 2 of them get
> most of the requests 3 of them get none and occasionally App Engine will
> start up a 7th instance while the idle 3 still get nothing?
>
> Don't get me wrong. I LOVE what App Engine stands for and I have all the
> respect in the world for the App Engine team.  BUT, I have been through SO
> much grief ranging from random app engine problems to having to migrate to
> an HR datastore to dramatic increases in pricing.  When I signed up for
> this (old pricing), I thought the pricing would eventually get better
> (almost like gmail and disk space), but instead it went the opposite.  Had
> my experience been perfect here and my app had run flawlessly all this
> time, I would have had no gripes and shut up and spent the extra cash
> without blinking.  But, instead I have experienced hair loosing problems,
> massive variations in performance and got stuck with a much larger bill.

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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[JH]

Actually datastore queries can use quite a bit of ram

On Dec 14, 3:36 pm, "Brandon Wirtz"  wrote:
> People are hung up on this 600mhz 128m Ram thing.  If you are using the
> API’s you are likely barely touching your CPU, and if you are using MemCache
> and Datastore most the time you aren’t using ram.
>
> GAE is not the choice for Folding/Unfolding proteins or searching for ET.
> But if you are building Data Intense apps you can’t touch it on price.
>
> From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of André Pankraz
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:21 PM
> To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600
> MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE
>
> the main problem with heroku seems to be that they start with a minimum of
> 200$ a month for the database - not very open source friendly?! it pays off
> if you use 1 TB data. Maybe I miss cheaper options there.
>
> --
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[google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[mike hershey]

Woops, better take down those pictures! Your violating adsense's ToS. Your 
not allowed to share CPM with anyone. Just a heads up, I would hate to see 
your adsense account disabled

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Rishi Arora]

Yeah, more RAM is linearly more costlier, which seems unfair and
un-competitive.  It does make me wonder though, how hard does Google (and
others like linode) try to actually make all that RAM available to you.  In
other words, if you bought an instance with 4G RAM, do they absolutely
guarantee you'll get all 4GB in physical RAM and won't start swapping
because you're probably sharing the server with other apps?

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 9:56 AM, bFlood  wrote:

> exactly jeff, well put.
>
> On Dec 14, 10:36 am, Jeff Schnitzer  wrote:
> > I think there is a legitimate gripe here which is that large-memory
> > instances are unreasonably expensive.
> >
> > There's some significant value-add for GAE's "whole package" -
> > automatic scaling, memcache, edge caching, deployment system, API
> > access (although these APIs are generally charged separately).  This
> > makes the $60/mo for a basic (multithreaded) instance worthwhile.
> > It's expensive but it's convenient, and most frontend work fits fine
> > in the F1.  Also it's a little bit of apples/oranges because the GAE #
> > is heap whereas an Amazon # is VM size, but this is probably less than
> > a factor of 2 difference.
> >
> > On the other hand, there are many application components whose primary
> > requirement is a significant chunk of RAM.  All that Google
> > infrastructure is nice but it isn't nice enough to warrant a 10X
> > premium just for a measly 1G of RAM.  And you can't even get more.
> > Seriously, a cheap amazon "standard" instance has significantly more
> > RAM than the most expensive GAE instance... lame.
> >
> > Consequently, backends are useful as a long-running frontend, but
> > absolutely useless as an in-memory index.  We're priced into going the
> > inconvenient route of placing memory indexes in other cloud services.
> >
> > I've been generally accepting of GAE's recent pricing changes, but the
> > price of large-memory instances basically means I have to treat that
> > option as if it doesn't exist.  Which means when Google adds all these
> > fancy features to support different kinds of instances, from my
> > perspective, they're wasting their time.  I can't use them until they
> > make them cheaper.
> >
> > So here's my plea:  a 256MB instance shouldn't cost twice as much as a
> > 128MB instance, and a 512MB instance shouldn't cost twice as much as a
> > 256MB instance.  The price curve should drop off.  There's a
> > reasonable premium to pay for running on GAE, but a factor of 10 isn't
> > it.
> >
> > Just for comparison... the largest GAE backend, at 1G, costs $460/mo.
> > A 1.5G linode instance costs $60/mo.  And I can get a 4G linode
> > instance for $160/mo.  And while it's not exactly an apples/apples
> > comparison, when I need RAM, the priority of all those other Google
> > niceties goes down considerably.  And if I needed (say) four 1G
> > backends, you can absolutely bet that I will go with Linode and pocket
> > the extra $20k per year.
> >
> > Jeff
>
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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Vivek Puri  wrote:
> Great points Jeff. Double pricing for double CPU and memory is very
> similar to Mac pricing on memory. So, what do new Mac buyers do? They
> just get the lowest memory possible and get the cheapest memory deal
> from ebay. Unfortunately, we cannot do that here.

With other cloud providers and the Remote API you *totally* can do
that here.  It's actually quite easy.  It's just lame.

Jeff

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Joshua Smith]

No, new Mac buyers get what the kid at the store tells them to get, and never 
open their mac, or buy memory from ebay.

If they were cheapskates, they'd be buying a PC that looks like a Mac on the 
outside, and costs a ton less.

On Dec 14, 2011, at 12:26 PM, Vivek Puri wrote:

> Great points Jeff. Double pricing for double CPU and memory is very
> similar to Mac pricing on memory. So, what do new Mac buyers do? They
> just get the lowest memory possible and get the cheapest memory deal
> from ebay. Unfortunately, we cannot do that here.

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

People are hung up on this 600mhz 128m Ram thing.  If you are using the
API’s you are likely barely touching your CPU, and if you are using MemCache
and Datastore most the time you aren’t using ram.

 

GAE is not the choice for Folding/Unfolding proteins or searching for ET.
But if you are building Data Intense apps you can’t touch it on price.

 

 

From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of André Pankraz
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:21 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600
MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

 

the main problem with heroku seems to be that they start with a minimum of
200$ a month for the database - not very open source friendly?! it pays off
if you use 1 TB data. Maybe I miss cheaper options there.

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> But if you are building Data Intense apps you can’t touch it on price.

Only if you can use the indexes provided.  If you need a slightly
different index (say, a spatial index), you're forced to maintain it
in a third-party cloud.  This was one of the original design goals for
Backends; I recall one of Ikai's posts describing a fulltext search
index as a use case.  And yet backends are totally useless as index
repositories because they're priced 10X what it would cost to put the
index *anywhere* else.

1) You can't use backends as fast indexes because they are too expensive.
2) You can't use backends as persistent state because they aren't
reliable enough.

What can you use them for?  They let you execute a single task longer
than 10minutes.  Pretty weak sauce.  They could have solved that
problem just by enabling long-running frontend requests url-by-url in
the app.yaml - that wouldn't require me to split my code and create
separate deployment modules.

I love Appengine, but Backends are a non-feature just like Email.  It
would be better if Google engineers didn't waste their time creating
features nobody can use.

Jeff

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

I have a spatial Index running on GAE using Calculated Tessellations as
indexed values.  Based on a talk given by someone at Google About How they
optimized map searches for doing "with in radius" searches.

Sure we can't all be the genius architect I am (or possibly as good at
dissecting other people's information) but you trade what you store and how
you store it, in order to optimize for the platform.

But again it always comes back to people trying to make GAE act like other
platforms, It isn't. Is it better? Guess that depends on if you Like Ruby's
Philosophy of there are 10 ways to do everything, and not Wrong answers. Or
Python's There is only one way to do something and that way will be right.

GAE is about understanding what you need to do, and optimizing for the way
GAE wants you to do it.  To Be honest I have never worked in a platform so
Rigid in architecture, or so limitless in potential.  

I think "creative" problem solvers don't thrive on GAE. The rigidity stifles
them as they attempt to solve problems that don't need to be solved.  And
Architects thrive because the Lego Pieces to play with are so abundant.




-Original Message-
From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schnitzer
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 2:11 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> But if you are building Data Intense apps you can't touch it on price.

Only if you can use the indexes provided.  If you need a slightly different
index (say, a spatial index), you're forced to maintain it in a third-party
cloud.  This was one of the original design goals for Backends; I recall one
of Ikai's posts describing a fulltext search index as a use case.  And yet
backends are totally useless as index repositories because they're priced
10X what it would cost to put the index *anywhere* else.

1) You can't use backends as fast indexes because they are too expensive.
2) You can't use backends as persistent state because they aren't reliable
enough.

What can you use them for?  They let you execute a single task longer than
10minutes.  Pretty weak sauce.  They could have solved that problem just by
enabling long-running frontend requests url-by-url in the app.yaml - that
wouldn't require me to split my code and create separate deployment modules.

I love Appengine, but Backends are a non-feature just like Email.  It would
be better if Google engineers didn't waste their time creating features
nobody can use.

Jeff

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> I have a spatial Index running on GAE using Calculated Tessellations as
> indexed values.  Based on a talk given by someone at Google About How they
> optimized map searches for doing "with in radius" searches.

Yeah yeah yeah, we can (and often do) come up with workarounds when
necessary.  I use geohashing in a couple of my production apps.  But
it these workarounds provide *very* narrow bounds around the problem
domain.  One change to the sort, or one more inequality, and all bets
are off.

And that only works if your index is a well-known problem domain.  I
was one of the early testers of Backends and used it for the index
that makes http://www.similarity.com/ run.  I thought it was great.
Then Google announced pricing, and I quickly migrated the index to
rackspace cloud for one sixth the price.

I'm not saying there isn't always a workaround.  But often that
workaround is "abandon GAE for part of your application".  Of the four
major (and wildly-different) applications I've built on GAE, all have
required this "workaround".  I'm pretty ok with that, except when the
only reason it's necessary is because of a bonkers pricing decision.

Jeff

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

They aren't work around's they are Truth in computing.  All the other
platforms have a layer between you and the data that is doing this same
thing.  I might prefer to have a library but I like that I interface with my
data in a known way and understand what is happening "behind the scenes" and
can look at changes that are being made, or add my own optimizations.


-Original Message-
From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schnitzer
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 2:59 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> I have a spatial Index running on GAE using Calculated Tessellations 
> as indexed values.  Based on a talk given by someone at Google About 
> How they optimized map searches for doing "with in radius" searches.

Yeah yeah yeah, we can (and often do) come up with workarounds when
necessary.  I use geohashing in a couple of my production apps.  But it
these workarounds provide *very* narrow bounds around the problem domain.
One change to the sort, or one more inequality, and all bets are off.

And that only works if your index is a well-known problem domain.  I was one
of the early testers of Backends and used it for the index that makes
http://www.similarity.com/ run.  I thought it was great.
Then Google announced pricing, and I quickly migrated the index to rackspace
cloud for one sixth the price.

I'm not saying there isn't always a workaround.  But often that workaround
is "abandon GAE for part of your application".  Of the four major (and
wildly-different) applications I've built on GAE, all have required this
"workaround".  I'm pretty ok with that, except when the only reason it's
necessary is because of a bonkers pricing decision.

Jeff

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[mike hershey]

I think you've got that backwards. The other cloud services referenced 
(amazon/rackspace) are IaaS, and allow you to host your own operating 
system that you have complete control over. App engine is the service with 
a layer between the data and the application. You can't control how app 
engine datastore works. On rackspace/amazon you can host whatever database 
you want or make your own database. It its a totally different service 
model.

I'm not saying one is better then the other, but your implying that you 
have more control with app engine then you do with other cloud services 
when its quite the opposite.

I think most people who use app engine prefer it because you don't have to 
understand how everything works. I get a black box servlet environment, 
datastore, and whatever else a site typically needs. I don't have to waste 
time knowing how all of this works, I just get to use it. People who need 
the sort of control you are talking about tend to prefer IaaS services 
where you can control how everything works. 

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

GAE FORCES you to think about your code. But it allows you to forget about
everything else.

 

My implication was with in regards to Data handling.

 

I said GAE is rigid. It does what it does, and you can't change it.  

 

BUT..

 

GAE is optimized to do Core things in the most optimal way possible. Google
does indexed lookups on huge scale faster and cheaper than anything else.
If you want to index in some way Google doesn't you have to implement that
code in to the way Google Does Indexing.  When you run other software
someone has written that code for you, often you can't change it, you can't
mod it. 

 

If You are working In the cloud you should be focusing on predictable
scalable units that have a linear, or improved efficiency with scale.
Google Does this.  No one else does.  I can manage 100k instance software
environment with GAE with a single developer.

 

Try that with any other platform, you can't as you get bigger you will hit
the limits of your Duplo blocks.  I can build the next Facebook on GAE. You
can't do that on Amazon. Because you will hit the back plain limits, the
transaction limits, the ACID limits, the Elasticity is not Dynamic enough to
handle changes in traffic hour by hour minute by minute.

 

GAE FORCES you to think about your code. But it allows you to forget about
everything else.

 

 

From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of mike hershey
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:56 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

 

I think you've got that backwards. The other cloud services referenced
(amazon/rackspace) are IaaS, and allow you to host your own operating system
that you have complete control over. App engine is the service with a layer
between the data and the application. You can't control how app engine
datastore works. On rackspace/amazon you can host whatever database you want
or make your own database. It its a totally different service model.

 

I'm not saying one is better then the other, but your implying that you have
more control with app engine then you do with other cloud services when its
quite the opposite.

 

I think most people who use app engine prefer it because you don't have to
understand how everything works. I get a black box servlet environment,
datastore, and whatever else a site typically needs. I don't have to waste
time knowing how all of this works, I just get to use it. People who need
the sort of control you are talking about tend to prefer IaaS services where
you can control how everything works. 

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> GAE FORCES you to think about your code. But it allows you to forget about
> everything else.

Brandon, I humbly suggest you just haven't hit an edge case yet.
There are plenty of indexing problems which GAE simply doesn't offer a
solution to.  When I am forced to think about "does polygon A overlap
with polygon B?", I look for R-tree indexes... which GAE doesn't
offer.  There are a million spatial index functions which are
no-brainers in PostGIS but represent man-years of work on GAE.  And of
course there's fulltext indexing.

GAE gets more features every month, which is great.  The magic
anti-exploding-index queries recently added are a godsend.  Fulltext
indexing is on its way.  And I'll be jumping up and down in happiness
when true spatial indexes show up.  But let's not pretend that GAE is
complete.  And let's make sure Google knows it when they make missteps
like pricing large instances unreasonably or offering halfway email
solutions that do little more than generate complaints on this list.

Jeff

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

I have very nice Teselation Code, uses concentric Hexagons in place of
Circles and works for nested families on a map, and even has a "Driving"
distance function rather than "As the crow flies" that requires there be a
road of a given size in the Hex to make the move. And While it isn't well
tested we have a "driving Time" function that allows for City, Highway, and
Rural, hexes so that you can specify a that you'd like to find something
with in a 30 minute radius instead of a 30 mile radius, and if you can hop
on i80, that will search 30 miles, and if you are in LA it will search 7
miles. Currently only being used for US maps, but it can be used for Global.


Works really well and is blazing fast on GAE.  Sell it to you for $500k.



-Original Message-
From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schnitzer
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 6:33 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> GAE FORCES you to think about your code. But it allows you to forget 
> about everything else.

Brandon, I humbly suggest you just haven't hit an edge case yet.
There are plenty of indexing problems which GAE simply doesn't offer a
solution to.  When I am forced to think about "does polygon A overlap with
polygon B?", I look for R-tree indexes... which GAE doesn't offer.  There
are a million spatial index functions which are no-brainers in PostGIS but
represent man-years of work on GAE.  And of course there's fulltext
indexing.

GAE gets more features every month, which is great.  The magic
anti-exploding-index queries recently added are a godsend.  Fulltext
indexing is on its way.  And I'll be jumping up and down in happiness when
true spatial indexes show up.  But let's not pretend that GAE is complete.
And let's make sure Google knows it when they make missteps like pricing
large instances unreasonably or offering halfway email solutions that do
little more than generate complaints on this list.

Jeff

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

By the way the original use of the code was used for solving real life
traveling SalesMan routes for shipping and receiving for a VERY, VERY large
client, and GAE is not what the final product runs on but we needed
infrastructure to test the logic on which is what was sold, not the actual
source code.


-Original Message-
From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Wirtz
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 6:53 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

I have very nice Teselation Code, uses concentric Hexagons in place of
Circles and works for nested families on a map, and even has a "Driving"
distance function rather than "As the crow flies" that requires there be a
road of a given size in the Hex to make the move. And While it isn't well
tested we have a "driving Time" function that allows for City, Highway, and
Rural, hexes so that you can specify a that you'd like to find something
with in a 30 minute radius instead of a 30 mile radius, and if you can hop
on i80, that will search 30 miles, and if you are in LA it will search 7
miles. Currently only being used for US maps, but it can be used for Global.


Works really well and is blazing fast on GAE.  Sell it to you for $500k.



-Original Message-
From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schnitzer
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 6:33 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> GAE FORCES you to think about your code. But it allows you to forget 
> about everything else.

Brandon, I humbly suggest you just haven't hit an edge case yet.
There are plenty of indexing problems which GAE simply doesn't offer a
solution to.  When I am forced to think about "does polygon A overlap with
polygon B?", I look for R-tree indexes... which GAE doesn't offer.  There
are a million spatial index functions which are no-brainers in PostGIS but
represent man-years of work on GAE.  And of course there's fulltext
indexing.

GAE gets more features every month, which is great.  The magic
anti-exploding-index queries recently added are a godsend.  Fulltext
indexing is on its way.  And I'll be jumping up and down in happiness when
true spatial indexes show up.  But let's not pretend that GAE is complete.
And let's make sure Google knows it when they make missteps like pricing
large instances unreasonably or offering halfway email solutions that do
little more than generate complaints on this list.

Jeff

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Jeff Schnitzer]

If you have a polynomial-time implementation of optimal traveling
salesman, I'll buy that for $500k.

Jeff

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> By the way the original use of the code was used for solving real life
> traveling SalesMan routes for shipping and receiving for a VERY, VERY large
> client, and GAE is not what the final product runs on but we needed
> infrastructure to test the logic on which is what was sold, not the actual
> source code.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Wirtz
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 6:53 PM
> To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
> 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE
>
> I have very nice Teselation Code, uses concentric Hexagons in place of
> Circles and works for nested families on a map, and even has a "Driving"
> distance function rather than "As the crow flies" that requires there be a
> road of a given size in the Hex to make the move. And While it isn't well
> tested we have a "driving Time" function that allows for City, Highway, and
> Rural, hexes so that you can specify a that you'd like to find something
> with in a 30 minute radius instead of a 30 mile radius, and if you can hop
> on i80, that will search 30 miles, and if you are in LA it will search 7
> miles. Currently only being used for US maps, but it can be used for Global.
>
>
> Works really well and is blazing fast on GAE.  Sell it to you for $500k.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schnitzer
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 6:33 PM
> To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
> 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
>> GAE FORCES you to think about your code. But it allows you to forget
>> about everything else.
>
> Brandon, I humbly suggest you just haven't hit an edge case yet.
> There are plenty of indexing problems which GAE simply doesn't offer a
> solution to.  When I am forced to think about "does polygon A overlap with
> polygon B?", I look for R-tree indexes... which GAE doesn't offer.  There
> are a million spatial index functions which are no-brainers in PostGIS but
> represent man-years of work on GAE.  And of course there's fulltext
> indexing.
>
> GAE gets more features every month, which is great.  The magic
> anti-exploding-index queries recently added are a godsend.  Fulltext
> indexing is on its way.  And I'll be jumping up and down in happiness when
> true spatial indexes show up.  But let's not pretend that GAE is complete.
> And let's make sure Google knows it when they make missteps like pricing
> large instances unreasonably or offering halfway email solutions that do
> little more than generate complaints on this list.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Bart Thate]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:55 AM, mike hershey wrote:

I think most people who use app engine prefer it because you don't have to
> understand how everything works. I get a black box servlet environment,
> datastore, and whatever else a site typically needs. I don't have to waste
> time knowing how all of this works, I just get to use it. People who need
> the sort of control you are talking about tend to prefer IaaS services
> where you can control how everything works.
>

You said the magic word .. "black box". In all these ramblings i never see
the costs for the developers calculated in. GAE might be heaven for admins
that dont want todo the dirty work themselves, for me GAE is a hell because
i don't have any control over the runtime enironment at all. If something
is not working i can't check logs, i have to buy a 500 dollar a month
package to get some support from Google to go look what is going wrong.
Nothing worse then having your app misbehave, shout something in the IRC
channel and after some time, heee its fixed ! Gives me no clue of whats
going on and just that is so important for me when i develop things.

The other thing that connects to the developers costs thing i have against
GAE and more against Google is the use of API. These API get deprecated
quicker then i can start reading their docs, and when they get into
"mainstream" i have to fork over money to use them. As i write software for
other people to use, that would require them to make use of this *paid* API
so i can never build upon them in the core of my app. Sure i  can make a
plugin for this API and make it optional, but say like integrating the
translation API into my bot (would be extreeemly usefull) is a nono. We
need FOA .. Free and Open API, things i can rely on. Not so with Google
though.

Last thing is that Google choose the evil path, it has killed the hippie
amongst all of us programmers. The vibrant community that was created with
Wave has also disappeared with the death of it. Is the HRD the holy grail
of cloud computing (only reason i would use GAE i think), it is there
because so many of us went down the rough road on M/S in those early days.
Now i feel the spirit is lost and people are only choosing GAE because they
have already so much invested in it (developer wise).

I miss the socket on GAE, really do. Programming with sockets is so much
better because you get "pure" internet not just HTTP and streaming is
possible. Streaming people ! Stream it ;]

Bart Thate

programming schizophrenic - "till freedom come!"

[!] http://jsonbot.org
[!] http://tinyurl.com/schizoo

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

Optimal is a strong word.  

12 trucks have to deliver 144 items and pick up 60 items, No truck can have
more than 14 items at any given time.  Do to a Quirk in what we are shipping
let's say it is dogs and cats... You can never be hauling both a dog, and a
cat at the same time, but you can be picking up a dog, at a location you
just deposited a cat. Also if you travel with a Dog for more than 3 hours
you explode, but you can trade dogs for ones that won't explode at any place
that can swap dogs with you.

While I call this a traveling sales man, we also have an acceptable penalty
for failed pickups and failed deliveries, so it is more chess engine than
Traveling Salesman.   Capture X pieces in Y moves and score as many points
as possible.  

My piece was really just building the What are the valid moves at this point
in time. I didn't have to solve all the rest.

Also The items being shipped were not Dogs, They were something far more
Fissile.




-Original Message-
From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schnitzer
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:23 PM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

If you have a polynomial-time implementation of optimal traveling salesman,
I'll buy that for $500k.

Jeff

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Brandon Wirtz  wrote:
> By the way the original use of the code was used for solving real life 
> traveling SalesMan routes for shipping and receiving for a VERY, VERY 
> large client, and GAE is not what the final product runs on but we 
> needed infrastructure to test the logic on which is what was sold, not 
> the actual source code.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Wirtz
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 6:53 PM
> To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month 
> for a
> 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE
>
> I have very nice Teselation Code, uses concentric Hexagons in place of 
> Circles and works for nested families on a map, and even has a "Driving"
> distance function rather than "As the crow flies" that requires there 
> be a road of a given size in the Hex to make the move. And While it 
> isn't well tested we have a "driving Time" function that allows for 
> City, Highway, and Rural, hexes so that you can specify a that you'd 
> like to find something with in a 30 minute radius instead of a 30 mile 
> radius, and if you can hop on i80, that will search 30 miles, and if 
> you are in LA it will search 7 miles. Currently only being used for US
maps, but it can be used for Global.
>
>
> Works really well and is blazing fast on GAE.  Sell it to you for $500k.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schnitzer
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 6:33 PM
> To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month 
> for a
> 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Brandon Wirtz 
wrote:
>> GAE FORCES you to think about your code. But it allows you to forget 
>> about everything else.
>
> Brandon, I humbly suggest you just haven't hit an edge case yet.
> There are plenty of indexing problems which GAE simply doesn't offer a 
> solution to.  When I am forced to think about "does polygon A overlap 
> with polygon B?", I look for R-tree indexes... which GAE doesn't 
> offer.  There are a million spatial index functions which are 
> no-brainers in PostGIS but represent man-years of work on GAE.  And of 
> course there's fulltext indexing.
>
> GAE gets more features every month, which is great.  The magic 
> anti-exploding-index queries recently added are a godsend.  Fulltext 
> indexing is on its way.  And I'll be jumping up and down in happiness 
> when true spatial indexes show up.  But let's not pretend that GAE is
complete.
> And let's make sure Google knows it when they make missteps like 
> pricing large instances unreasonably or offering halfway email 
> solutions that do little more than generate complaints on this list.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Google App Engine" group.
> To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe 

Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brian Quinlan]

HI John,

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:58 AM, John  wrote:

> When it comes to writes I call it the "times two phenomenon". I have NO
> IDEA why you can't do anything that is not 2 writes???


I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but the translation of
high-level datastore operations into billable operations is described here:
http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/billing.html#Billable_Resource_Unit_Cost

Cheers,
Brian


>
> e.g.
> If you have a very simple Entity with 5 properties (none set to the NON
> default status of Unindexed) and you save it, it is 12 writes.
>
>
>  Key 
> Write Ops
> ID/Name
> firstName
> four 
> lastName
> six  
> three 
> agtwaXhvdG8tbGl2ZXILCxIEVGVzdBiNAQw12141JoedoorBobsticksfree
>
> So you get slammed with 12 writes. Each property is 2 writes.
>
>
> Here is a PropertyLess Entity
>  
> KeyWrite
>  Ops
> ID/Name
> agtwaXhvdG8tbGl2ZXITCxIMUHJvcGVydHlMZXNzGI4BDA 2142
>
> 2 writes.  Who needs properties anyhow?  That would mean you could query
> on them.  Queries return results, results are reads. Reads cost money.
>
> Oh wait, that is what memcache is for... wait a sec, memcache took down my
> whole site Monday from MemcacheServiceExceptions
>
>
> http://code.google.com/status/appengine/detail/memcache/2011/12/12#ae-trust-detail-memcache-get-latency
>
>
> "Also in my app app engine often spins up idle instances (that I cannot
> get rid of no matter what I configure) and send them exactly 1 request
> every 15 minutes so that I'm being charged the whole time for this instance
> I don't want."
>
> This happens to me also... Why is it if you have 6 instances, 2 of them
> get most of the requests 3 of them get none and occasionally App Engine
> will start up a 7th instance while the idle 3 still get nothing?
>
>
> Don't get me wrong. I LOVE what App Engine stands for and I have all the
> respect in the world for the App Engine team.  BUT, I have been through SO
> much grief ranging from random app engine problems to having to migrate to
> an HR datastore to dramatic increases in pricing.  When I signed up for
> this (old pricing), I thought the pricing would eventually get better
> (almost like gmail and disk space), but instead it went the opposite.  Had
> my experience been perfect here and my app had run flawlessly all this
> time, I would have had no gripes and shut up and spent the extra cash
> without blinking.  But, instead I have experienced hair loosing problems,
> massive variations in performance and got stuck with a much larger bill.
>
> --
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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

That isn't actually the rule.

And if they kick him out for it I'll loan him my lawyer.  

 

AppEngine is great for SEO, and likely your pages load faster running on GAE
which is good for CTR.

 

 

 

From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of mike hershey
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:07 AM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600
MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

 

Woops, better take down those pictures! Your violating adsense's ToS. Your
not allowed to share CPM with anyone. Just a heads up, I would hate to see
your adsense account disabled 

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Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[mike hershey]

"7.  *Confidentiality.* You agree not to disclose Google Confidential 
Information without Google's prior written consent. "*Google Confidential 
Information*" includes without limitation: (a) all Google software, 
technology, programming, specifications, materials, guidelines and 
documentation relating to the Program; (b) click-through rates or other 
statistics relating to Property performance in the Program provided to You 
by Google; and (c) any other information designated in writing by Google as 
"Confidential" or an equivalent designation. However, You may accurately 
disclose the amount of Google’s gross payments to You pursuant to the 
Program. Google Confidential Information does not include information that 
has become publicly known through no breach by You or Google, or 
information that has been (i) independently developed without access to 
Google Confidential Information, as evidenced in writing; (ii) rightfully 
received by You from a third party; or (iii) required to be disclosed by 
law or by a governmental authority."
=-https://www.google.com/adsense/localized-terms

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RE: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a 600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

[Brandon Wirtz]

Not the forum for discussing, but you can share with your Affiliates, which
has no definition.  And I would say you are my affiliate.  Also there are
several California cases (which govern this contract) that say that a
contract cannot require that parties don't disclose the price of goods, as
part of anti-monopoly requirements.

 

If you want to look at the contract, Clause 14 says that if Google is found
to be a monopoly in the Advertising or search space, you are required to pay
for their defense.

 

Paragraph 17 says the contract is bound to California law, unless California
law conflicts with the contract terms.

 

Paragraph 3 precludes you ever talking to any advertiser who you have
written a review about if they have advertised on your site through Adsense.


 

Paragraph 5 says as an adsense user you are never allowed to tell someone to
"Google .. " the topic.

 

Clause 8 says that if Google doesn't want to pay you they don't have to.

 

If you think that the Adsense TOS is enforced as written you are mistaken.
They will let you do anything you want if you make them enough money, and
they will screw you over if it suits them, or if they aren't paying
attention and it is inconvenient to fix.

 

 

 

 

From: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
[mailto:google-appengine@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of mike hershey
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:18 AM
To: google-appengine@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [google-appengine] Re: Isn't .08/hr 1.92/day $59.52/month for a
600 MHZ CPU instance with 128 MB memory a LITTLE EXPENSIVE

 

"7.  Confidentiality. You agree not to disclose Google Confidential
Information without Google's prior written consent. "Google Confidential
Information" includes without limitation: (a) all Google software,
technology, programming, specifications, materials, guidelines and
documentation relating to the Program; (b) click-through rates or other
statistics relating to Property performance in the Program provided to You
by Google; and (c) any other information designated in writing by Google as
"Confidential" or an equivalent designation. However, You may accurately
disclose the amount of Google's gross payments to You pursuant to the
Program. Google Confidential Information does not include information that
has become publicly known through no breach by You or Google, or information
that has been (i) independently developed without access to Google
Confidential Information, as evidenced in writing; (ii) rightfully received
by You from a third party; or (iii) required to be disclosed by law or by a
governmental authority."

=-https://www.google.com/adsense/localized-terms

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