Re: SSSD, Kerberized NFSv4 and Bacula OFF TOPIC PRAISE

[jbranso]

August 24, 2023 3:57 PM, "Martin Baulig"  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> About 2–3 months ago, I got an initial prototype of Bacula working on GNU 
> Guix. I had the Bacula
> Director, two separate Storage Daemons and the Baculum web interface running 
> in a GNU Guix VM on my
> Synology NAS.

I had to look it up...Apparently Bacula is a way to back up computers on a 
network.  Sounds cool!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacula

> At some point, I would really love to upstream these changes, but it's quite 
> a complex
> configuration - and I also had to do quite a few refactorings and clean-ups 
> for this to pass my
> personal quality standards.
> 
> One issue I had to deal with is that Bacula heavily relies upon clear-text 
> passwords in its various
> configuration files. To communicate between its different components, it uses 
> TLS with Client
> Certificates in addition to passwords. So in addition to writing clear-text 
> passwords into various
> configuration files, the X509 private keys, DH parameters, etc. also need to 
> be installed into
> appropriate directories.
> 
> I came up with quite an elegant solution for this problem - and introduced 
> three new services and
> an extension.
> 
> * My "guix secrets" tool provides a command-line interface to maintain a 
> "secrets database"
> (/etc/guix/secrets.db) that's only accessible to root. It can contain simple 
> passwords, arbitrary
> text (like for instance X509 certificates in PEM format) and binary data.

I know guix has been wanting to figure out how to have services that need 
passwords in the configuration
file.  This sounds like it could work!  

> * The problem with the standard activation service is that it runs early in 
> the boot process and
> all activation actions are run in a seemingly random way, there isn't a way 
> to provide any real
> dependencies. Any failures could possibly prevent the system from fully 
> booting up.
> 
> I created a new "activation-tree-service-type" - currently experimental and a 
> bit in a refactoring
> stage. It creates a separate one-shot Shepherd service for each activation 
> action, and you can
> declare dependencies between them.
> 
> Since it's using normal Shepherd services underneath the hood, you could for 
> instance depend on
> user-homes and the network being up, so you could SSH in and use GNU Emacs to 
> fix any issues.
> 
> And any arbitrary Shepherd service could also depend on some of these actions 
> - such as for
> instance the various Bacula services.
> 
> * Then I created "service-accounts-service-type" that extends the standard 
> account creation with
> the ability to also create home directories, run and PID directories and the 
> log-file. It's mostly
> used under the hood.
> 
> * Finally, "secrets-service-type" depends on all of the above to do its work.
> 
> It takes a template file - which is typically interned in the store - 
> containing special "tokens"
> that tell it which keys to look up from the secrets database.
> 
> It uses the above mentioned service-accounts-service-type to specify where 
> the substituted
> configuration file should be installed, insuring that the directory has been 
> set up with
> appropriate permissions.
> 
> And then it substitutes the special tokens from the template file with the 
> actual secrets. For
> instance "@password:foo@" would be substituted with a password entry called 
> "foo". For arbitrary
> text or binary data, the template would contain something like "@blob:data@" 
> - this will be
> substituted with the full path name of a file where the actual data will be 
> written to.
> 
> * * * *
> 
> All of the above has been mostly working in early August, just one problem 
> remained:
> 
> I do not want to store any of the actual data inside the VM, but rather use a 
> folder on the NAS
> itself. Even the PostgreSQL database lives on a NFS-mounted volume. The 
> problem is quite simply
> that Synology's Virtual Machine Manager software does not provide any way of 
> exporting or importing
> volumes. You cannot even move them between VMs. And I really don't want to 
> tie my data to the
> lifecycle of the VM.
> 
> Using traditional NFS (either version 2 or 3) worked perfectly fine and since 
> this is a very
> locked-down environment, encrypting the NFS traffic really isn't needed. 
> Like, and attacker that
> got access to either the NAS or the VM running inside it would already have 
> all the data anyway.
> 
> However, I wanted to give it a try regardless and see whether I could get 
> SSSD working with GNU
> Guix.
> 
> And this is where the nightmares began!
> 
> Firstly, I had to make a few changes to GNU Guix itself, most of which I'd 
> like to upstream. The
> code is in my public GitLab repo, but it's a bit of a mess right now, and 
> I'll need at least a day
> or two to clean it up. But I also ran across a couple of questions and issues.
> 
> * GNU Guix is currently using nfs-utils 2.4.3, whereas 2.6.3 is currently the 
> latest ver

Re: Merging core-updates? OFF TOPIC PRAISE

[Joshua Branson]

Christopher Baines  writes:

> Christopher Baines  writes:
>
>> Julien Lepiller  writes:
>>
>>> As discussed at Guix Days before Fosdem, we haven't merged core-updates
>>> in a very long time. I'd volunteer to lead this effort, but I don't
>>> know what steps I should follow. Do we have some documentation about
>>> that?
>>
>> I can try and help with this, at least in terms of helping get
>> bordeaux.guix.gnu.org substitute availability to a good level.
>>
>> I'd also like to get the kind of comparison that the qa-frontpage can do
>> for patches working for branches, but that'll probably take a bit of
>> work in the data service/qa-frontpage to get working smoothly.
>
> I've now addressed some performance issues with data.qa.guix.gnu.org,
> which means that the comparisons for core-updates (and branches like it)
> should now work, even if they're still a bit slow.
>
> This has enabled qa.guix.gnu.org to submit builds to the bordeaux build
> farm, they're still being slowly submitted but things have already
> started to happen for aarch64-linux at least.
>
> Once there's enough build data to work with, I'll see if I can start
> getting some information to show up on qa.guix.gnu.org.

Christopher thanks a million for your work on bordeaux and
qa.guix.gnu.org!  It's awesome that guix is moving towards having a QA
assurance that new patches won't break testsuitse!

Thanks again!

Joshua

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[zimoun]

Hi Raghav,

On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 at 12:03, Raghav Gururajan  
wrote:

> [1] The idea isn't off-topic, because, Guix is meant to be kernel 
> agnostic. So exploring HyperbolaBSD as a kernel option for Guix is with 
> in the prospect.

Hum, I do not think that Guix is agnostic about the standard C library.
Therefore, Guix is not meant to be kernel agnostic.

Well, it depends what we name Guix.  From my understanding, the
bootstrap chain is not kernel agnostic.  For instance, what is the size
of the current binary seed on the Hurd kernel?

>From my understanding, Guix is meant to be GNU which means Guix is using
many tools from GNU and these tools are often not kernel agnostic.


> (A) Guix System with GNU userspace and HyperbolaBSD kernel.

Debian folks did that:

   GNU userland packaged with .deb using GLibc
   running on the top of a modified FreeBSD kernel

The project is named Debian/kfreebsd [1] and it is a huge piece of work.
Well, we could imagine reuse their work and replace “Debian packages” by
Guix ones.

But… yes, a strong but!  It is a lot of work as Vagrant explains it [2].
Basically, Guile 3.0 is not working on Debian/kfreebsd so it requires
many patches to have Guile 3.0 running on the top of a BSD kernel.


1: <https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/>
2: <https://yhetil.org/guix/874jzjogbo.fsf@contorta>


> (B) Guix System with HyperbolaBSD userspace and HyperbolaBSD kernel.

It means port Guix to a BSD kernel.  Guix is strongly connected to the
GLibc and a BSD kernel is not using GLibc but another.  Therefore, it
requires to solve many difficult core issues.


On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 at 18:49, Maxime Devos  wrote:

> (C) Guix System with HyperbolaBSD userspace (except for GNU C library 
> and compiler) and Linux or Hurd kernel

It means port BSD applications.  For instance, about pf, from Wikipedia
[1]:

PF has been ported to many other operating systems, however
there are major differences in capabilities

and even, nothing about kernels other than BSD variants.

1: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PF_(firewall)#Ports>


In all cases (A) or (B) or (C), it is the sort of project that would
take someone highly motivated and highly skilled busy for some time.


Cheers,
simon

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Maxime Devos]

On 20-07-2022 18:03, Raghav Gururajan wrote:
[2] IIUC, HyperbolaBSD (OS) consist of a custom-made kernel and a 
custom-made userspace, both of which the components are either derived 
from OpenBSD System or written from scratch. So two things can be 
explored, *separately*.

(A) Guix System with GNU userspace and HyperbolaBSD kernel.
(B) Guix System with HyperbolaBSD userspace and HyperbolaBSD kernel. 


(C) Guix System with HyperbolaBSD userspace (except for GNU C library 
and compiler) and Linux or Hurd kernel


Probably won't work for all userspace things but possibly some of them 
run on Linux/Hurd+glibc


Greetings,
Maxime.



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Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Raghav Gururajan]

Hello Guix!

I'd like to add following points to this discourse:

[1] The idea isn't off-topic, because, Guix is meant to be kernel 
agnostic. So exploring HyperbolaBSD as a kernel option for Guix is with 
in the prospect.


[2] IIUC, HyperbolaBSD (OS) consist of a custom-made kernel and a 
custom-made userspace, both of which the components are either derived 
from OpenBSD System or written from scratch. So two things can be 
explored, *separately*.

(A) Guix System with GNU userspace and HyperbolaBSD kernel.
(B) Guix System with HyperbolaBSD userspace and HyperbolaBSD kernel.

Regards,
RG.


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Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[jbranso]

July 15, 2022 7:23 AM, "Csepp"  wrote:

> Vagrant Cascadian  writes:
> 
> 
> If the goal is to produce highly secure servers than I'd like to suggest
> unikernels once again. No Guix running on the deployed server, but the
> server image is built by and possibly deployed by Guix.
> Of course the downside is that they do a whole lot less than OpenBSD or
> Linux. But if your use case is already covered, that's actually a
> positive, since no extra features means smaller attack surface.
> MirageOS could be a good starting point, since we already have a good
> chunk of Ocaml tooling integrated into Guix.
> http://unikernel.org/projects
> There was a Nix project with similar aims that sadly fizzled out, so
> it's probably not exactly an easy task to tackle, but it's much easier
> than porting Guix to a new kernel and packaging a userland for that
> kernel.

Thanks for the suggestion!  That would be a really secure server!

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[jbranso]

July 14, 2022 11:38 AM, "Vagrant Cascadian"  wrote:

> On 2022-07-14, zimoun wrote:
> 
>> Well, dreaming about science fiction, it appears me more approachable to
>> have Guix running on something as Debian/kfreeBSD – it could be an
>> interesting project with the help of Debian folks. Other said, “just”
>> replace the Linux kernel by a variant of the FreeBSD one running with
>> GNU GLibc.
> 
> Well, guile-3.0 does not build on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, so that would be
> a bit of a blocker for a GNU Guix port:
> 
> https://buildd.debian.org/guile-3.0
> 
> But guile-2.2 built fine:
> 
> https://buildd.debian.org/guile-2.2
> 
> It is a rough port, I have toyed with it now and again ... requires lots
> of patches to code that assume userland based on running kernel; patches
> that upstreams are hesitant to take, etc. It is great as a grueling test
> of coding assumptions, though!

Does guile 3.0+ compile on the GNU/Hurd?  

> 
> My guess is you would have the same sort of problems with porting GNU
> Guix to any of the *BSD.
> 
> Definitely the sort of project that would take someone highly motivated
> over many years...
> 
> live well,
> vagrant

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[jbranso]

July 14, 2022 9:06 AM, "zimoun"  wrote:

> Hi Tobias, All,
> 
> (French Bastille Day is a day off, so a day for trolling. ;-))
> 
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2022 at 10:40, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice  wrote:
> 
>> https://www.hyperbola.info/news/announcing-hyperbolabsd-roadmap
> 
> Thanks for the link. It is helpful for understanding. :-)
> 
>> Far from 'recent' in my book.
> 
> Indeed, the announcement is from 2019-12-21. :-)
> 
> Quoting:
> 
> This will not be a "distro", but a hard fork of the OpenBSD
> kernel and userspace
> 
> Not being a new distro means using the venerable pkg_* package manager,
> right? Well, I am confused by the aim…

They want to use pacman apparently.  :)

> 
>>> If you run OpenBSD kernel and OpenBSD userland, why not just run an
>>> OpenBSD system? :-)
>> 
>> Because it contains blobs. HyperbolaBSD doesn't, by definition (see above).
> 
> …because HyperboladBSD seems a new distro as gnewSense is a new distro
> free from problematic parts but based on an existing other one. Well,
> since it had been announced on late 2019 and we are in 2022, it could be
> interesting to know the status on this project.
> 
>> Whatever my opinion on WSL, Darwin, and the Hurd, I must concede that they 
>> at least exist.
>> 
>> Porting Guix to something that doesn't is a poor investment in comparison.
> 
> Just to be sure to understand, the initial question is to port Guix to
> HyperbolaBSD which is a variant of OpenBSD (kernel and userland).
> 
> Therefore, correct me if I misunderstand something, it means:
> 
> 1. port Guix to a new kernel not using the GLibc
> 2. package all the (free) userland OpenBSD managed by Guix
> 
> Bah I wish all the best for people who would tackle this. :-)
> 
> Well, dreaming about science fiction,

Thanks for speaking plainly.  I did not realize how difficult this project
would be.  :)

> it appears me more approachable to
> have Guix running on something as Debian/kfreeBSD – it could be an
> interesting project with the help of Debian folks. Other said, “just”
> replace the Linux kernel by a variant of the FreeBSD one running with
> GNU GLibc.
> 
> However, doing so, the point #2 (BSD userland) is lost.
> 
> My understanding is: #1 and #2 require more work than the union of the
> Guix community *and* the other kernel community could provide, IMHO.
> Assuming both communities would be interested in. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> simon

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[jbranso]

July 14, 2022 6:24 AM, "zimoun"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 18:44, Joshua Branson  wrote:
> 
> Well, I am missing where it is announced. Could you be more specific?

Someone else already provided the link, but someone on irc did ask me
where the source code for HyperbolaBSD  is?  I can't find it, and that
is a bit troubling...

> 
> If you run OpenBSD kernel and OpenBSD userland, why not just run an
> OpenBSD system? :-)

I love that Guix is the Emacs of distros!  It's cool to customize it!
And easy!  But OpenBSD "seems to be more secure" than GNU/Linux. And 
Linux is huge!  And OpenBSD has some awesome software: pf, spamd, httpd,
and some other stuff that their marketing tells me is good.

Maybe a good first step would be for guix to provide a hardened linux
package.  

> Well, Debian is working (maybe the project is stalling?) on running GNU
> userland using GLibc on the top of a FreeBSD kernel. The conclusion is:
> it is a piece of work. :-)
> 
> https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu
> 
> What I miss with your proposal is: are you interested by OpenBSD
> userland software and you would like them running on a Linux kernel? Or
> are you interested by specific OpenBSD kernel feature and you would like
> be able to run GNU software on it?

I would love to use a secure, extensible, microkernel/exokernel that has a
universal guixy configuration language.  Guix GNU/Hurd System vm is probably 
the best candidate for this, but my understanding is that the "childhurd"  
(a GNU/Hurd running on top of GNU/Linux) is not very stable.  Possibly because
the vm image does not have a swap space.  There was an open bug report for it
but I cannot find it.

Has anyone here had a good experience with a childhurd?  Not a criticism,
I just have not heard many people say that the childhurd is stable/awesome.

> 
> I think, similar as Josselin, that it requires a lot of work because
> many low-level features are kernel dependant. Therefore, it appears to
> me more being worth to focus on smoothing the WSL2 experience, focus on
> the Hurd, or to attempt something on the Darwin kernel.
> 
> Cheers,
> simon

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Csepp]

Vagrant Cascadian  writes:

> [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]]
> On 2022-07-14, zimoun wrote:
>> Well, dreaming about science fiction, it appears me more approachable to
>> have Guix running on something as Debian/kfreeBSD – it could be an
>> interesting project with the help of Debian folks.  Other said, “just”
>> replace the Linux kernel by a variant of the FreeBSD one running with
>> GNU GLibc.
>
> Well, guile-3.0 does not build on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, so that would be
> a bit of a blocker for a GNU Guix port:
>
>   https://buildd.debian.org/guile-3.0
>
> But guile-2.2 built fine:
>
>   https://buildd.debian.org/guile-2.2
>
> It is a rough port, I have toyed with it now and again ... requires lots
> of patches to code that assume userland based on running kernel; patches
> that upstreams are hesitant to take, etc. It is great as a grueling test
> of coding assumptions, though!
>
> My guess is you would have the same sort of problems with porting GNU
> Guix to any of the *BSD.
>
> Definitely the sort of project that would take someone highly motivated
> over many years...
>
>
> live well,
>   vagrant
>
> [[End of PGP Signed Part]]

If the goal is to produce highly secure servers than I'd like to suggest
unikernels once again. No Guix running on the deployed server, but the
server image is built by and possibly deployed by Guix.
Of course the downside is that they do a whole lot less than OpenBSD or
Linux. But if your use case is already covered, that's actually a
positive, since no extra features means smaller attack surface.
MirageOS could be a good starting point, since we already have a good
chunk of Ocaml tooling integrated into Guix.
http://unikernel.org/projects/
There was a Nix project with similar aims that sadly fizzled out, so
it's probably not exactly an easy task to tackle, but it's much easier
than porting Guix to a new kernel and packaging a userland for that
kernel.

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Vagrant Cascadian]

On 2022-07-14, zimoun wrote:
> Well, dreaming about science fiction, it appears me more approachable to
> have Guix running on something as Debian/kfreeBSD – it could be an
> interesting project with the help of Debian folks.  Other said, “just”
> replace the Linux kernel by a variant of the FreeBSD one running with
> GNU GLibc.

Well, guile-3.0 does not build on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, so that would be
a bit of a blocker for a GNU Guix port:

  https://buildd.debian.org/guile-3.0

But guile-2.2 built fine:

  https://buildd.debian.org/guile-2.2

It is a rough port, I have toyed with it now and again ... requires lots
of patches to code that assume userland based on running kernel; patches
that upstreams are hesitant to take, etc. It is great as a grueling test
of coding assumptions, though!

My guess is you would have the same sort of problems with porting GNU
Guix to any of the *BSD.

Definitely the sort of project that would take someone highly motivated
over many years...


live well,
  vagrant


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Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[zimoun]

Hi Tobias, All,

(French Bastille Day is a day off, so a day for trolling. ;-))


On Thu, 14 Jul 2022 at 10:40, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice  wrote:

> https://www.hyperbola.info/news/announcing-hyperbolabsd-roadmap/

Thanks for the link.  It is helpful for understanding. :-)


> Far from 'recent' in my book.

Indeed, the announcement is from 2019-12-21. :-)

Quoting:

This will not be a "distro", but a hard fork of the OpenBSD
kernel and userspace

Not being a new distro means using the venerable pkg_* package manager,
right?  Well, I am confused by the aim…


>> If you run OpenBSD kernel and OpenBSD userland, why not just run an
>> OpenBSD system? :-)
>
> Because it contains blobs.  HyperbolaBSD doesn't, by definition (see above).

…because HyperboladBSD seems a new distro as gnewSense is a new distro
free from problematic parts but based on an existing other one.  Well,
since it had been announced on late 2019 and we are in 2022, it could be
interesting to know the status on this project.


> Whatever my opinion on WSL, Darwin, and the Hurd, I must concede that they at 
> least exist.  
>
> Porting Guix to something that doesn't is a poor investment in comparison.

Just to be sure to understand, the initial question is to port Guix to
HyperbolaBSD which is a variant of OpenBSD (kernel and userland).

Therefore, correct me if I misunderstand something, it means:

 1. port Guix to a new kernel not using the GLibc
 2. package all the (free) userland OpenBSD managed by Guix

Bah I wish all the best for people who would tackle this. :-)

Well, dreaming about science fiction, it appears me more approachable to
have Guix running on something as Debian/kfreeBSD – it could be an
interesting project with the help of Debian folks.  Other said, “just”
replace the Linux kernel by a variant of the FreeBSD one running with
GNU GLibc.

However, doing so, the point #2 (BSD userland) is lost.

My understanding is: #1 and #2 require more work than the union of the
Guix community *and* the other kernel community could provide, IMHO.
Assuming both communities would be interested in. :-)


Cheers,
simon

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

On 14 July 2022 10:23:49 UTC, zimoun  wrote:
> Well, I am missing where it is announced.  Could you be more specific?

https://www.hyperbola.info/news/announcing-hyperbolabsd-roadmap/

Far from 'recent' in my book.

Whatever my opinion on WSL, Darwin, and the Hurd, I must concede that they at 
least exist.  

Porting Guix to something that doesn't is a poor investment in comparison.

> If you run OpenBSD kernel and OpenBSD userland, why not just run an
OpenBSD system? :-)

Because it contains blobs.  HyperbolaBSD doesn't, by definition (see above).



Kind regards,

T G-R

Sent on the go.  Excuse or enjoy my brevity.

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[zimoun]

Hi,

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 18:44, Joshua Branson  wrote:

> The Hyperbola GNU/Linux team recently announced that they would ditch
> Linux for OpenBSD. They are using the OpenBSD kernel and the OpenBSD
> userland. And they are GPL-ing all of the code. It sounds like they will
> have to replace 20% of said code.
>
> https://www.hyperbola.info/

Well, I am missing where it is announced.  Could you be more specific?

If you run OpenBSD kernel and OpenBSD userland, why not just run an
OpenBSD system? :-)


Well, Debian is working (maybe the project is stalling?) on running GNU
userland using GLibc on the top of a FreeBSD kernel.  The conclusion is:
it is a piece of work. :-)

https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/

What I miss with your proposal is: are you interested by OpenBSD
userland software and you would like them running on a Linux kernel?  Or
are you interested by specific OpenBSD kernel feature and you would like
be able to run GNU software on it?

I think, similar as Josselin, that it requires a lot of work because
many low-level features are kernel dependant.  Therefore, it appears to
me more being worth to focus on smoothing the WSL2 experience, focus on
the Hurd, or to attempt something on the Darwin kernel.


Cheers,
simon

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Csepp]

Josselin Poiret  writes:

> Hello,
>
> Joshua Branson  writes:
>
>> I would love for Guix to be a Multi Kernel package manager (I mean it
>> works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
>> life). My dream would be to port Guix to Plan 9 ;-)
>
> I don't think Guix runs on the Hurd in the same way that Guix runs on
> Linux: the (gnu system hurd) tells me that the daemon is started with
> --disable-chroot, which actually disables all isolation mechanisms.
> There would need to be a significant effort to port the isolation
> mechanisms to the Hurd.
>
> Seeing how the daemon is in general left alone since C++ is hard
> compared to Scheme (and there's always the "but we could rewrite it in
> Guile" excuse), combined with the difficulty of interfacing with
> kernels, I'm not sure BSD support (or even Hurd support) will appear
> anytime soon.
>
> Best,

Someone was working on NetBSD support but ran into libc differences or
something and didn't get much support.

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Joshua Branson]

Akib Azmain Turja  writes:

> Joshua Branson  writes:
>

I did not write the below sentence.  I was quoting the previous
discussion found on guix devel.

>> (I mean it
>> works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
>> life)
>
> Really?  I found tons of bugs in the Hurd port, causing it to not even
> boot properly.
>

I would not know how well GNU/Hurd Guix System runs.  I have never used
it.  I have played with hurd-service.  That's pretty cool.  But I could
never really get it to work...I am currently playing with the
pre-packaged qemu debian image.

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Joshua Branson]

Josselin Poiret  writes:

> Hello,
>
> Joshua Branson  writes:
>

To be clear, I did not write the next paragraph.  I was quoting the
previous discussion.  :)

>> I would love for Guix to be a Multi Kernel package manager (I mean it
>> works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
>> life). My dream would be to port Guix to Plan 9 ;-)
>
> I don't think Guix runs on the Hurd in the same way that Guix runs on
> Linux: the (gnu system hurd) tells me that the daemon is started with
> --disable-chroot, which actually disables all isolation mechanisms.
> There would need to be a significant effort to port the isolation
> mechanisms to the Hurd.
>
> Seeing how the daemon is in general left alone since C++ is hard
> compared to Scheme (and there's always the "but we could rewrite it in
> Guile" excuse), combined with the difficulty of interfacing with
> kernels, I'm not sure BSD support (or even Hurd support) will appear
> anytime soon.
>

To be fair, Guix does support the Hurd. You can run the guix package
manager on the Hurd. Guix System does not yet support the Hurd. Though I
believe I talked with a user in the guix community that was running GNU
Guix System/Hurd, but the issue he ran into was that he has no wifi
support. Then something broke in GNU Guix System/Hurd and he no longer
run GNU Guix System/Hurd on real hardware.

>
> Best,

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Josselin Poiret]

Hello,

Joshua Branson  writes:

> I would love for Guix to be a Multi Kernel package manager (I mean it
> works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
> life). My dream would be to port Guix to Plan 9 ;-)

I don't think Guix runs on the Hurd in the same way that Guix runs on
Linux: the (gnu system hurd) tells me that the daemon is started with
--disable-chroot, which actually disables all isolation mechanisms.
There would need to be a significant effort to port the isolation
mechanisms to the Hurd.

Seeing how the daemon is in general left alone since C++ is hard
compared to Scheme (and there's always the "but we could rewrite it in
Guile" excuse), combined with the difficulty of interfacing with
kernels, I'm not sure BSD support (or even Hurd support) will appear
anytime soon.

Best,
-- 
Josselin Poiret

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Akib Azmain Turja]

Joshua Branson  writes:

> (I mean it
> works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
> life)

Really?  I found tons of bugs in the Hurd port, causing it to not even
boot properly.

-- 
Akib Azmain Turja

This message is signed by me with my GnuPG key.  It's fingerprint is:

7001 8CE5 819F 17A3 BBA6  66AF E74F 0EFA 922A E7F5


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Joshua Branson]

indieterminacy  writes:

>
> I recall dicussing this topic area with you last year:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00080.html
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00082.html
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00083.html
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00084.html
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00085.html
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00086.html
>
> Im pleased that the Hyperbola community has been making strides.
>
> Hopefully I can one day have an OpenBSD kernel overseeing Guix SD.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Jonathan McHugh

Looks like the most relevant bit to my question was here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00078.html

The real problem will not be the languages (guile or C++), but the
system calls used by Guix.

Guix makes use of some recent (less than 2 decades) and somewhat
advanced features of the Linux kernel, such as namespaces.

To port Guix to another operating system such as BSD (including OSX),
one would have to translate these calls.

For example, Guix is the only software I've actually encountered that
can not run in SmartOS' emulation of Linux, because the system calls it
uses are not implemented there.

I would love for Guix to be a Multi Kernel package manager (I mean it
works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
life). My dream would be to port Guix to Plan 9 ;-)

Re: Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[indieterminacy]

On 12-07-2022 00:44, Joshua Branson wrote:

Sorry for starting this centuries flame war, but I can't help but be
more and more impressed with OpenBSD.  It seems ideal for small scale
servers (aka NOT large databases).  It tries really hard to be secure 
by

default and has great documentation.  With OpenBSD it is easy to set up
a static website (httpd) and your own email server (openSMTPD, spamd,
and pf).

I would argue that the average user will find OpenBSD to be easier to
secure than the Linux kernel.

The Hyperbola GNU/Linux team recently announced that they would ditch
Linux for OpenBSD. They are using the OpenBSD kernel and the OpenBSD
userland. And they are GPL-ing all of the code. It sounds like they 
will

have to replace 20% of said code.

https://www.hyperbola.info/

Though the website currently says "Donate to keep the project alive".
So that's not super reassuring...

Anyway, assuming that the HyperbolaBSD team accomplishes their goals,
would Guix System or Guix ever be able to run on HyperbolaBSD? I know
that Guix System ties itself to glibc. HyperbolaBSD does NOT use glibc
and probably never will. Would it be feasible/desireable for Guix & 
Guix

System to support a BSD kernel and alternative libc?  What about other
OSes?

Thanks,

Joshua

P.S.  I just recently came accross this guide for getting started with
OpenBSD on servers: http://si3t.ch/ah/en/toc/  I am really impressed
with how easy/awesome OpenBSD is.


I recall dicussing this topic area with you last year:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00080.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00082.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00083.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00084.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00085.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2021-06/msg00086.html

Im pleased that the Hyperbola community has been making strides.

Hopefully I can one day have an OpenBSD kernel overseeing Guix SD.


Kind regards,


Jonathan McHugh

Could Guix System eventually run on top of HyperbolaBSD ? slightly off topic

[Joshua Branson]

Sorry for starting this centuries flame war, but I can't help but be
more and more impressed with OpenBSD.  It seems ideal for small scale
servers (aka NOT large databases).  It tries really hard to be secure by
default and has great documentation.  With OpenBSD it is easy to set up
a static website (httpd) and your own email server (openSMTPD, spamd,
and pf).

I would argue that the average user will find OpenBSD to be easier to
secure than the Linux kernel.  

The Hyperbola GNU/Linux team recently announced that they would ditch
Linux for OpenBSD. They are using the OpenBSD kernel and the OpenBSD
userland. And they are GPL-ing all of the code. It sounds like they will
have to replace 20% of said code.

https://www.hyperbola.info/

Though the website currently says "Donate to keep the project alive".
So that's not super reassuring...

Anyway, assuming that the HyperbolaBSD team accomplishes their goals,
would Guix System or Guix ever be able to run on HyperbolaBSD? I know
that Guix System ties itself to glibc. HyperbolaBSD does NOT use glibc
and probably never will. Would it be feasible/desireable for Guix & Guix
System to support a BSD kernel and alternative libc?  What about other
OSes?

Thanks,

Joshua

P.S.  I just recently came accross this guide for getting started with
OpenBSD on servers: http://si3t.ch/ah/en/toc/  I am really impressed
with how easy/awesome OpenBSD is.

Re: [off-topic]

[zimoun]

Hi,

For French-speaker, here Emacs+Org+Guix at the previous Guix wrokshop:




I also recommend this MOOC as a starting point for Reproducible
notebook using Org-mode (I do not remember if it available for
non-French speaker):



A part using Guix should be added later, for the next sessions of this MOOC. :-)


Cheers,
simon

[off-topic]

[Jonathan McHugh]

Hello,

I noticed an interesting report^1 on the holistic approach from Emacs and how 
its 'additive solutions' assist problem solving for researchers. Given Guix's 
emphasis on reproducible research I felt it worth sharing given overlapping 
concerns.

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/matthey/jmtr/pre-prints/content-jm_jmtr_johnsapr22
```
It is human nature to prefer additive problem solving even if removal may be 
the more efficient solution. This heuristic has wide ranging implications when 
dealing with science, innovation and complex problem solving. This is 
compounded when dealing with these issues at an institutional level. Additive 
solutions to workflows with extra software tools and proprietary digital 
solutions can impede work without offering any advantages in terms of FAIR data 
principles or productivity. The below Viewpoint highlights one possible 
workflow and the mentality underpinning it with an aim to incorporate FAIR 
data, improved productivity and longevity of written documents while improving 
workloads within industrial R&D. 
```


^1 via the blog Irreal


Jonathan McHugh
indieterminacy@libre.brussels

Re: IT jobs in Switzerland OFF TOPIC JOKE

[Jonathan McHugh]

(I got this mail from other channels, bleurgh...).

Zig, Switzerland would be more cool.

CVs are only accepted in APL format.


Jonathan McHugh
indieterminacy@libre.brussels

September 24, 2021 5:22 PM, "Joshua Branson"  wrote:

> Gábor Boskovits  writes:
> 
>> Hello guix,
>> 
>> The firm where I am working now is hiring.
>> 
>> Location: Zug, Switzerland. People willing to work in office will be 
>> preferred. The firm helps with
>> relocation if needed.
>> 
>> Profile: HFT crypto startup
>> 
>> Codebase: c++, python
>> Tooling: k8s, gitlab
> 
> I'm an expert ping pong player, and master mattress tester. You may
> have heard of me. I should warn you...I am expensive to hire. :)
> 
>> Positions: quantitative trader, quantitative researcher, c++ developer, 
>> devops
>> 
>> Experience with AWS is a plus.
>> 
>> If someone is willing to give this a try, please come back to me and I can 
>> provide more details.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> g_bor
> 
> P.S. I'm just kidding this job description is a little beyong me, but
> best of luck recruiting talented people!
> 
> --
> Joshua Branson (jab in #guix)
> Sent from Emacs and Gnus
> https://gnucode.me
> https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
> https://propernaming.org
> "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
> enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: IT jobs in Switzerland OFF TOPIC JOKE

[Joshua Branson]

Gábor Boskovits  writes:

> Hello guix,
>
> The firm where I am working now is hiring.
>
> Location: Zug, Switzerland. People willing to work in office will be 
> preferred. The firm helps with relocation if needed.
>
> Profile: HFT crypto startup
>
> Codebase: c++, python
> Tooling: k8s, gitlab

I'm an expert ping pong player, and master mattress tester.  You may
have heard of me.  I should warn you...I am expensive to hire.  :)

>
> Positions: quantitative trader, quantitative researcher, c++ developer, devops
>
> Experience with AWS is a plus.
>
> If someone is willing to give this a try, please come back to me and I can 
> provide more details.
>
> Regards,
> g_bor
>

P.S.  I'm just kidding this job description is a little beyong me, but
best of luck recruiting talented people!

-- 
Joshua Branson (jab in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar
  

Re: Libre GPU/VPU/SOC updates/OFF TOPIC

[Tobias Platen]

On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 23:08:28 +0200
Ricardo Wurmus  wrote:

> It was never completed.  I supported the campaign back then, but I 
> never received that first EOMA68-A20 “Libre Tea” computer card.

For porting to the EOMA68-A20 we can use similar hardware that uses the same 
SOC. 
For the Libre-SOC port we can start with a Talos II or BlackBird. 

-- 
Tobias Platen 

Re: Libre GPU/VPU/SOC updates/OFF TOPIC

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Joshua Branson  writes:

Do you remember those libre hardware SOC EOMA68 computing 
devices?


https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop

It was a system-on-a-chip, that had 1 GB ram that you put in 
your laptop
or desktop housing.  You could then upgrade to the new SOC for 
$50.


It was never completed.  I supported the campaign back then, but I 
never received that first EOMA68-A20 “Libre Tea” computer card.



Apologies if this is too off topic.


It is.  There isn’t anything Guix folks can do to make Guix run on 
non-existent hardware ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


--
Ricardo

Libre GPU/VPU/SOC updates/OFF TOPIC

[Joshua Branson]

Hey Guix people!

Do you remember those libre hardware SOC EOMA68 computing devices?

https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop

It was a system-on-a-chip, that had 1 GB ram that you put in your laptop
or desktop housing.  You could then upgrade to the new SOC for $50.
That's game changing in an industry that revolves around you buying a
new laptop computer every 5 years.

Anyway, Luke is working now working a Libre GPU/SOC:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/libre-risc-v/m-class

(this site is more up to date).
https://libre-soc.org/3d_gpu/

>From the above site:

#+BEGIN_SRC org
Note: this is a hybrid CPU, VPU and GPU. It is not, as
many news articles are implying, a "dedicated exclusive GPU". The option
exists to create a stand-alone GPU product (contact us if this is a
product that you want). Our primary goal is to design a complete
all-in-one processor (System-on-a-Chip) that happens to include
libre-licensed VPU and GPU accelerated instructions as part of the
actual - main - CPU itself. This greatly simplifies driver development,
applications integration and debugging, reducing costs and time to
market in the process.
#+END_SRC

I did interview (1) Luke a few days ago, and he mentioned that they are
going to be spending $20,000 USD to make some FPGA prototypes.  I did
request that he donate one to some Guix developers.  :D The current SOC
is using IMB's Power ISA, and Luke does need some help in designing the
hardware.  NLnet is providing some funding.

Luke's mailing list is available here:

http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook

Luke's latest mailing list mentioned that NLnet does provide funding for
some of these projects, but there is a time limit.

#+BEGIN_SRC org
well i urgently need people to help out.

there is a time limit on the NLnet funding.
#+END_SRC


1)  
https://video.hardlimit.com/videos/watch/playlist/41587906-bec9-4bae-801a-b8a4c91960ce?playlistPosition=3&resume=true
The video is also available via the other dominant proprietary video platform...

Apologies if this is too off topic.

--
Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: Feedback on a new simple firewall service OFF TOPIC PRAISE

[Joshua Branson]

Solene Rapenne  writes:

> Hello,
>
> I'm looking for advices and feedback. I wrote a simple service (reusing
> the iptables service as a start) that I called "firewall", the purpose

maybe eventually it could use nftables, which is the better newer version.

> is to block all incoming ports and list the ports you want to allow.
> The point is to allow users to easily manage their firewall without
> knowing about to use iptables. Most of the time opening a few ports and
> blocking everything is enough.

YES!  SWEET, ICY COLD, HOLY ALASKAN ASPARAGUS TIPS! THIS IS AWESOME!
How cool is it to abstract away the details for a firewall!?  Man I've
tried learning iptables, and it is just very weird syntax and hard to
understand!  Thanks for working on this!

I invite you to forward your original email to guix-patc...@gnu.org.
That way you open a specific issue and your code is assigned a bug
number!

--
Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[jgart]

Ryan et al,

Some notes follow:

What can we do about the bundled jquery and bootstrap here?

https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay/tree/master/item/_static/jquery
https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay/tree/master/item/_static/bootstrap

The jquery and bootstrap code is required by this jinja template:

https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay/tree/master/item/templates/layout.html#L20

On a quick glance, the rest of the javascript codes look to be vanilla:

https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay/tree/master/item/scripts/index.js
https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay/tree/master/item/scripts/invoice.js

There's even an nginx.conf and systemd service file for us to use as notes when 
writing the service:

https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay/tree/master/item/contrib

all the best,

jgart


April 11, 2021 12:42 PM, "jgart"  wrote:

> I think one sustainable (no pun intended) way to proceed is to package 
> fosspay for guix and write a
> service for it:
> 
> https://sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay
> 
> I created a public kanban board entry for it below to get started:
> 
> https://board.disroot.org/project/guix-packaging/us/677?kanban-status=12312 
> 
> Feel free to get started on it on your own and contribute a patch to 
> upstream. I'm not working on
> fosspay as of yet. 
> 
> If you'd prefer to work on it together as a group feel free to join 
> LibreMiami this month for a
> guix packaging meetup and make a request to package fosspay:
> 
> https://events.nixnet.services/events/27955ca1-0aee-4ec5-be20-48e6c45fd0f6
> 
> all the best,
> 
> jgart
> 
> libremiami.org
> mumble.libremiami.org
> search.libremiami.org
> donotshake.libremiami.org

Re: Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[Ryan Prior]

On April 11, 2021, jgart  wrote:
> package fosspay for guix and write a service for it

Nice idea, that looks like a really useful little service.

If any Guix maintainers are supported by community donations, send your
links so we can pitch in!

Re: Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[jgart]

I think one sustainable (no pun intended) way to proceed is to package fosspay 
for guix and write a service for it:

https://sr.ht/~sircmpwn/fosspay/

I created a public kanban board entry for it below to get started:

https://board.disroot.org/project/guix-packaging/us/677?kanban-status=12312  

Feel free to get started on it on your own and contribute a patch to upstream. 
I'm not working on fosspay as of yet. 

If you'd prefer to work on it together as a group feel free to join LibreMiami 
this month for a guix packaging meetup and make a request to package fosspay:

https://events.nixnet.services/events/27955ca1-0aee-4ec5-be20-48e6c45fd0f6

all the best,

jgart

libremiami.org
mumble.libremiami.org
search.libremiami.org
donotshake.libremiami.org

Re: Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[Joshua Branson]

ilmu  writes:

> Hi guys,
>
> A bit crazy maybe but how about we completely redefine what money is?

Sure, why not?  That's what guix is all about.  Let's dare new things!

>
> I wrote "this" (the attachment or http://datalisp.is) over the weekend
> (in one sitting! very raw, sorry if it's hard to understand, feel free
> to ask me any questions).

Raw?  perhaps.  Attention grabbing introduction?  YES!

>
> Actually from seeing this:
>
>> Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
>> Sent from Emacs and Gnus
>> https://gnucode.me
>> https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
>> https://propernaming.org
>> "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
>> enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar
>
> It looks like you basically have the right idea about the economics,
> the paper describes something similar (get paid by helping others find
> the proper names for things).

That's what Earl Nightinggale said too!  Something like "Money going
into your wallet is directly proportional to your service or
contribution."

>
> The document basically explains how to make a "cryptocurrency" that uses 
> something like "automated science" as proof of work.
>
> Please leave preconceived notions at the door, this is not like any
> other cryptocurrency you are familiar with and the bit about automatic
> science is also slightly inaccurate, really it is hard to classify
> this idea (if it even works).
>
> However! I have access to funding and some other people and this pdf
> serves as a general overview for this (admittedly very ambitious)
> project. The first step (that I have in mind) is to make an education
> startup that teaches programming to children and teenagers, by using
> the ideas in the paper this can be automated and the network
> self-perpetuating.

I honestly have a hard time grasping the concepts you present.  My good
friend happens to be a retired CEO of several global companies.  He's
got an engineering mind.  I'll show him the paper and see if he
understands it!  :)  My jabber ID is the same as my email address.  Feel
free to communicate with me directly that way!

>
> I am also very interested in making a "nixos-infect" type thing for Guix and 
> asked about that in the past on the mailing lists.

Yes please!

>
> Let me know how you decide to proceed, I'm sure we can cooperate.
>
> Kind regards,
> - Ilmu
>

--
Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[ilmu]

Hi guys,

A bit crazy maybe but how about we completely redefine what money is?

I wrote "this" (the attachment or http://datalisp.is) over the weekend (in one 
sitting! very raw, sorry if it's hard to understand, feel free to ask me any 
questions).

Actually from seeing this:

> Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
> Sent from Emacs and Gnus
> https://gnucode.me
> https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
> https://propernaming.org
> "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
> enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

It looks like you basically have the right idea about the economics, the paper 
describes something similar (get paid by helping others find the proper names 
for things).

The document basically explains how to make a "cryptocurrency" that uses 
something like "automated science" as proof of work.

Please leave preconceived notions at the door, this is not like any other 
cryptocurrency you are familiar with and the bit about automatic science is 
also slightly inaccurate, really it is hard to classify this idea (if it even 
works).

However! I have access to funding and some other people and this pdf serves as 
a general overview for this (admittedly very ambitious) project. The first step 
(that I have in mind) is to make an education startup that teaches programming 
to children and teenagers, by using the ideas in the paper this can be 
automated and the network self-perpetuating.

I am also very interested in making a "nixos-infect" type thing for Guix and 
asked about that in the past on the mailing lists.

Let me know how you decide to proceed, I'm sure we can cooperate.

Kind regards,
- Ilmu

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 6:15 PM, Joshua Branson  wrote:

> Leo Famulari l...@famulari.name writes:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:05:00PM -0400, Joshua Branson wrote:
> >
> > > Aloha you lovely people! I personally believe that people should make
> > > business out of free software. Here are some of my business ideas
> > > involving GNU Guix. I invite you all to beat me to market!
> >
> > VPS service that accepts a config.scm and returns a running virtual
> > machine, accessible with a web-based console (SSH, HTTPS and other
> > services would be enabled by the user as desired, in config.scm).
>
> I'm all game to do something like this! We could be a serious contender
> for linode or digital ocean! Guix already has a VPS like service...one
> would just need to write the web interface...and potentially buy some
> hardware.
>
>
> --
>

Re: Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[Joshua Branson]

Leo Famulari  writes:

> On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:05:00PM -0400, Joshua Branson wrote:
>> Aloha you lovely people!  I personally believe that people should make
>> business out of free software.  Here are some of my business ideas
>> involving GNU Guix.  I invite you all to beat me to market!
>
> VPS service that accepts a config.scm and returns a running virtual
> machine, accessible with a web-based console (SSH, HTTPS and other
> services would be enabled by the user as desired, in config.scm).

I'm all game to do something like this!  We could be a serious contender
for linode or digital ocean!  Guix already has a VPS like service...one
would just need to write the web interface...and potentially buy some
hardware.


--
Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[Leo Famulari]

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:05:00PM -0400, Joshua Branson wrote:
> Aloha you lovely people!  I personally believe that people should make
> business out of free software.  Here are some of my business ideas
> involving GNU Guix.  I invite you all to beat me to market!

VPS service that accepts a config.scm and returns a running virtual
machine, accessible with a web-based console (SSH, HTTPS and other
services would be enabled by the user as desired, in config.scm).

Meta guix: making money with GNU Guix: slightly off topic

[Joshua Branson]

Aloha you lovely people!  I personally believe that people should make
business out of free software.  Here are some of my business ideas
involving GNU Guix.  I invite you all to beat me to market!

- Become a competitor to jmp.chat.  jmp.chat is a free software cell
phone service.  I use it.  They charge $3 per month.  Unlimited
calling and texting.  Not to shabby.  Somewhere on their website, they
link to a wiki that has all of their source code and the nitty gritty
details on how to use their service.  Someone could make this a
service in GNU Guix and then ANYONE could compete with jmp.chat.

- Sell your emacs config.  Guix should make it possible for people to
   download and install a custom emacs.  I believe one of the guix
   developers is currently making a custom emacs for guix usage...can
   someone link to that for me?  You could make a custom channel, that
   somehow people can only access if they pay for you it.  This is
   free software, BUT people need to pay to use it.  "Conversations"
   (that's how I use jmp.chat) on my Android phone, has this business
   model.  You have to pay to download the software, but it is free
   software.

- Sell free software games.  I'm sure guix could help you do this is
   some way...

- If we package sourcehut, people could try to compete with Drew
  Devault.  Though that guy works 80 hours a week.  So best of luck
  competing against him!

Thanks!

Joshua

Apologies if this is off topic.  Please let me know if this sort of
email does not belong on guix devel!

Re: Security related tooling project OFF TOPIC PRAISE

[Joshua Branson]

Christopher Baines  writes:

> Joshua Branson  writes:
>
>> Christopher Baines  writes:
>>
>>> 1: https://git.cbaines.net/guix/tooling-to-improve-security-and-trust/about/
>>
>> Are you using guix system to serve the above link?  I didn't realize
>> that gitolite could render a README document so well!
>
> I am, it's cgit which is doing the web stuff, and it can process the
> about content through a script, which is what I'm doing [1]. I'm using a
> script which either passes it through Emacs if it's an org file, and
> otherwise uses the about-formatting.sh script included in cgit.
>
> 1: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1192275

That is probably the most beautiful thing I've seen so far today!  That
is soo cool!

--
Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: Security related tooling project OFF TOPIC PRAISE

[Christopher Baines]

Joshua Branson  writes:

> Christopher Baines  writes:
>
>> Hey,
>>
>> In May last year (2020), I submitted an application to NLNet. The work I
>> set out wasn't something I was doing at the time, but something I hadn't
>> yet found time to work on, tooling specifically around security issues.
>>
>> The application got a bit lost, probably somewhat down to email issues
>> on my end. Anyway, things picked up again in February of this year
>> (2021), and this is now something I'm looking to do roughly over the
>> next 8 months.
>
> Sweet action bro!  Way to land a guix related job for the next 8 months!
> That's awesome!

Well, not quite a job, but some financial support specifically to work
on Guix, which is still good!

>> I've been working on stuff in and around Guix for I think around 5 years
>> now, and in that time I have attempted some big projects, particularly
>> things like the Guix Data Service and Guix Build Coordinator. I've fit
>> all of that around a regular non-Guix related work. The support of NLNet
>> means I'm able to set aside more time for Guix and this work, exactly
>> how much more time I can dedicate is something I'm still working on.
>
> I'm looking forward to the tooling that you'll develop!  I've heard cool
> things about the Guix Data Service and the Build Coordinator.  I've no
> doubt that your security related tooling will be just as fantastic!

Thanks!

>> There's a more complete description of the aims and tasks here [1], this
>> email is effectively the start of the work. I want to get lots of input
>> and feedback on the plans I've set out, as well as checking if there's
>> any related or overlapping work going on.
>>
>> 1: https://git.cbaines.net/guix/tooling-to-improve-security-and-trust/about/
>
> Are you using guix system to serve the above link?  I didn't realize
> that gitolite could render a README document so well!

I am, it's cgit which is doing the web stuff, and it can process the
about content through a script, which is what I'm doing [1]. I'm using a
script which either passes it through Emacs if it's an org file, and
otherwise uses the about-formatting.sh script included in cgit.

1: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1192275

>> Please let me know if you have any comments or questions!
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>
> It'll be interesting when people stop saying that "OpenBSD" has fixed
> that security issue, and instead they say guix system fixed that
> security flaw.  :)

:)


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Security related tooling project OFF TOPIC PRAISE

[Joshua Branson]

Christopher Baines  writes:

> Hey,
>
> In May last year (2020), I submitted an application to NLNet. The work I
> set out wasn't something I was doing at the time, but something I hadn't
> yet found time to work on, tooling specifically around security issues.
>
> The application got a bit lost, probably somewhat down to email issues
> on my end. Anyway, things picked up again in February of this year
> (2021), and this is now something I'm looking to do roughly over the
> next 8 months.

Sweet action bro!  Way to land a guix related job for the next 8 months!
That's awesome!

>
> I've been working on stuff in and around Guix for I think around 5 years
> now, and in that time I have attempted some big projects, particularly
> things like the Guix Data Service and Guix Build Coordinator. I've fit
> all of that around a regular non-Guix related work. The support of NLNet
> means I'm able to set aside more time for Guix and this work, exactly
> how much more time I can dedicate is something I'm still working on.

I'm looking forward to the tooling that you'll develop!  I've heard cool
things about the Guix Data Service and the Build Coordinator.  I've no
doubt that your security related tooling will be just as fantastic!

>
> There's a more complete description of the aims and tasks here [1], this
> email is effectively the start of the work. I want to get lots of input
> and feedback on the plans I've set out, as well as checking if there's
> any related or overlapping work going on.
>
> 1: https://git.cbaines.net/guix/tooling-to-improve-security-and-trust/about/

Are you using guix system to serve the above link?  I didn't realize
that gitolite could render a README document so well!

>
> Please let me know if you have any comments or questions!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris

It'll be interesting when people stop saying that "OpenBSD" has fixed
that security issue, and instead they say guix system fixed that
security flaw.  :)

--
Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: PowerShell core? off topic praise

[Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

This is why I love guix!  Everyone is super respectful.  I know I've 
asked some questionable (newbie) questions before, and everyone always
treated me with dignity!  We've got some kind people here!

Thanks!

February 2, 2021 2:52 PM, "Leo Famulari"  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 02, 2021 at 06:35:14PM +0100, Nicolò Balzarotti wrote:
> 
>> Bengt Richter  writes:
>> 
>> Hi Yasu,
>> 
>> "Just curious", what do you hope will be the effect of your post?
>> 
>> Hi Bengt Richter, thanks for asking the same things I had in mind. This
>> post seems just M$ propaganda, more than a "Is anybody working on the
>> inclusion of Powershell?"
>> 
>> From Yasu's mail, when I read:
>> I say Powershell is almost synonymous with IT worker rights
>> 
>> I was really wondering what was happening here. I mean, we are talking
>> about a M$ product, right? I really can't see how this statement can
>> hold true. If it means "when I'm _forced_ to work on windows,
>> powershell is the lest worse thing", then fine. But I don't get how
>> having it available in guix would help then.
> 
> I understand that there may be an atmosphere of suspicion regarding
> Microsoft within a GNU project, but we should really try to give a more
> charitable interpretation to messages on the Guix mailing lists,
> especially if we aren't sure what the sender meant. Remember, Yasu will
> read your replies, too.
> 
> I don't use Windows regularly, but Powershell seems *really* cool. It's
> a very different paradigm than the Unix shell. It seems like it was
> designed to solve a lot of the limitations and quirks that plague Unix
> shell scripting. It may be that Powershell won't catch on because shell
> scripting isn't popular on Windows, but Unix + Powershell sounds
> amazing, and I've been interested in it for years.

Re: Possible bug in configuration-system? and an off topic quotation

[Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

You're welcome!

"Happy Hunger Games! And may the odds be ever in your favor."

January 28, 2021 1:26 PM, "Raghav Gururajan"  wrote:

> Hi Joshua!
> 
>> Here it is!
>> http://issues.guix.gnu.org/46130
> 
> Thanks so much.
> 
> Regards,
> RG.

Re: File search progress: database review and question on triggers OFF TOPIC PRAISE

[Joshua Branson]

Thanks for working on this!  This is a super awesome feature!  Best of luck!

-- 
Joshua Branson
Sent from Emacs and Gnus

Re: (Really) Free Software future Was: Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, ...

[Paul Smith]

On Mon, 2019-10-14 at 12:07 +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> Perhaps we should divide free software into two groups: 1) Really
> free software where Freedom 1 applies and 2) not-so-free software
> where Freedom 1 does no longer applies.
> 
> Here gnome and systemd are in the second kind.

Both GNOME and systemd are fully free software that support all four
freedoms, including freedom 1.

> Especially systemd, even if GPLed, is currently swallowing most of
> free software excluding large groups of people to make contributions.

Neither excluding upstream contributions nor "swallowing" other free
software projects violate any of the four freedoms.

As long as you are able to run the program, access the source code,
modify the source code as you like, and distribute both the original
and your modifications to others, then your freedoms are preserved.

Re: (Really) Free Software future Was: Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, ...

[Jesse Gibbons]

On Mon, 2019-10-14 at 12:07 +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Sun, 2019-10-13 at 21:44 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,]]]
> > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.]]]
> > 
> > Indeed, gnu-system-discuss is for system-level technical issues.
> > We set up gnu-community-private for nontechnical issues.
> > Please, everyone, move this discussion there.
> > 
> 
> The following is definitely on-topic for the gnu-system-discuss mailing
> list, as it is technical. 
> 
> I'm also Cc:ing this to guix-devel, who made the big mistake of
> publishing the joint statement to that list: (however, I'm a big fan of
> Guix, it is a major contribution to really free software, see below)

The only way I see this as on topic is guixsd would need to stop supporting
gnome if gnome is not actually free software and guixsd is to remain a
purely free distro. The guix developers would have a major interest in that.
> 
> I'd like to bring up two things you Richard was too weak to make a
> statement on historically: gnome and systemd.
> 
> Gnome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME When Miguel de Icaza
> destroyed the gnome project with his contributions to that project.
> 
> From August 2015:
> Me:
> > > OK; I understand that you cannot take action for software using the
> > GPL that you created (here systemd), even if Freedom 1 is violated.
> > > Nevertheless, can you please take your (GNU/FSF) hand off Gnome, it
> > is no longer (in my and many others opinion) a GNU project (and
> > hasn't been for a long  time, since Miguel took over).
> > Hi again. Sorry to bother you. In the world of free and open
> > software, systemd is one of the most mean creatures. And you from
> > FSF/GNU still don't have an opinion? Additionally, why are you still
> > supporting gnome; they don't adhere to the free software philosophy
> > any longer, it died with icaza :(
> 
> Me:
> >   > Additionally, why are you still supporting gnome;
> >   > they don't adhere to the free software philosophy any longer,
> > 
> RMS:
> > How so?
> > 
> >   >  it died with icaza :(
> > 
> RMS:
> > On the contrary, he betrayed us totally; GNOME has more or less
> > got back on track since his departure.
> 
> I don't agree and many with me don't either. Please exclude Gnome from
> ther GNU project list. That would be brave of you, still being the head
> of GNU.

I am not familiar with what icaza did to gnome. What's a good source for me
to read to catch up?
> 
> From May 2015:
> Me about freedom 1:
> > * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
> >   does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
> >   source code is a precondition for this. 
> > Systemd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
> > violates freedom 1: (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
> 
>  
> > The agenda is very clear: Extend, embrace and extinguish. No other
> > distros will survive in the long term.
> 
> RMS from August 2015:
> > I know Systemd is free software.  As for its technical merits or
> > demerits, I have never seen it so I don't have an opinion.
> 
> Me:
> > Is there any way that you could consider taking away your/FSF/GNU
> > support away from Gnome. That would make a large impact in the Free
> > Software community (and maybe also in the Open Source community).
> 
> The above statement also applies to systemd. Perhaps we should divide
> free software into two groups: 1) Really free software where Freedom 1
> applies and 2) not-so-free software where Freedom 1 does no longer
> applies.
> Here gnome and systemd are in the second kind. Especially systemd, even
> if GPLed, is currently swallowing most of free software excluding large
> groups of people to make contributions. This is not a bright future for
> free software, it is destroying it (every vendor lock-in dream)
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> 
> 
Free software by definition implies freedom 1 applies to it. If software
cannot be modified, it is nonfree.
If software is nonfree, then guix should not support it.

(Really) Free Software future Was: Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, ...

[Svante Signell]

On Sun, 2019-10-13 at 21:44 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.]]]
> 
> Indeed, gnu-system-discuss is for system-level technical issues.
> We set up gnu-community-private for nontechnical issues.
> Please, everyone, move this discussion there.
> 

The following is definitely on-topic for the gnu-system-discuss mailing
list, as it is technical. 

I'm also Cc:ing this to guix-devel, who made the big mistake of
publishing the joint statement to that list: (however, I'm a big fan of
Guix, it is a major contribution to really free software, see below)

I'd like to bring up two things you Richard was too weak to make a
statement on historically: gnome and systemd.

Gnome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME When Miguel de Icaza
destroyed the gnome project with his contributions to that project.

>From August 2015:
Me:
> > OK; I understand that you cannot take action for software using the
> GPL that you created (here systemd), even if Freedom 1 is violated.
> > Nevertheless, can you please take your (GNU/FSF) hand off Gnome, it
> is no longer (in my and many others opinion) a GNU project (and
> hasn't been for a long  time, since Miguel took over).
> > 
> Hi again. Sorry to bother you. In the world of free and open
> software, systemd is one of the most mean creatures. And you from
> FSF/GNU still don't have an opinion? Additionally, why are you still
> supporting gnome; they don't adhere to the free software philosophy
> any longer, it died with icaza :(

Me:
>   > Additionally, why are you still supporting gnome;
>   > they don't adhere to the free software philosophy any longer,
> 
RMS:
> How so?
> 
>   >  it died with icaza :(
> 
RMS:
> On the contrary, he betrayed us totally; GNOME has more or less
> got back on track since his departure.

I don't agree and many with me don't either. Please exclude Gnome from
ther GNU project list. That would be brave of you, still being the head
of GNU.

>From May 2015:
Me about freedom 1:
> * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
>   does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
>   source code is a precondition for this. 

> Systemd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
> violates freedom 1: (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)

 
> The agenda is very clear: Extend, embrace and extinguish. No other
> distros will survive in the long term.

RMS from August 2015:
> I know Systemd is free software.  As for its technical merits or
> demerits, I have never seen it so I don't have an opinion.

Me:
> Is there any way that you could consider taking away your/FSF/GNU
> support away from Gnome. That would make a large impact in the Free
> Software community (and maybe also in the Open Source community).

The above statement also applies to systemd. Perhaps we should divide
free software into two groups: 1) Really free software where Freedom 1
applies and 2) not-so-free software where Freedom 1 does no longer
applies.

Here gnome and systemd are in the second kind. Especially systemd, even
if GPLed, is currently swallowing most of free software excluding large
groups of people to make contributions. This is not a bright future for
free software, it is destroying it (every vendor lock-in dream)

Thank you for your time.

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[František Kučera]

Dne 13. 10. 19 v 15:05 Kete via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU
System distribution. napsal(a):
> Besides, there is no way these men are getting these transactions
> without assault or coercion taking place.

Generally speaking, older men have sex or relationships with younger
women – it is not rare and it even comes through mainstream media
without much embarrassment e.g. here:

(no, he is not her grandfather). You can discuss how much normal or
weird it is, but such relationships are possible perfectly legally and
without any violence or even without prostitution.

Franta

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Alexandre François Garreau]

Le dimanche 13 octobre 2019, 15:05:06 CEST Kete via Discussions about the 
development of the GNU system a écrit :
> Besides, there is no way these men are getting these transactions
> without assault or coercion taking place. Just because Epstein mediated
> that force so that the clients didn't have to get their hands dirty is
> no reason to make a stink over how preying on defenseless people in a
> peaceful manner is not violence. There is no way they could do that
> without someone doing the violence for them. The money cleans that from
> their conscience, but they are still involved with the abuse because it
> is part of the service that they buy.

What rms said is that Minsky wouldn’t have been *aware* of it.  And there’s a 
difference between doing, supporting, ordering, knowing, and unknowingly 
benefiting, especially legally.

Anyway, it was already said that Minsky didn’t do anything:

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

On 10/12/2019 05:19 AM, Jean Louis wrote:
> https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman
"In short: Stallman made some technically-correct-but-utterly-tactless
comments"

Here are the comments:

“deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting
one of Epstein’s victims [2])”

The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault”
is so vague

The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in
some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing.
Only that they had sex.

We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that
she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was
being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her
to conceal that from most of his associates.

I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it
is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation.

I'm unhappy to see dozens if not hundreds of emails and blog posts that
regurgitate Stallman's exact argument, "taking claims that someone did X
and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X." If
all of this Stallman logic produces such braindead puppetry, then it is
indeed time for new leaders, people who will embrace critical thought.
Besides, there is no way these men are getting these transactions
without assault or coercion taking place. Just because Epstein mediated
that force so that the clients didn't have to get their hands dirty is
no reason to make a stink over how preying on defenseless people in a
peaceful manner is not violence. There is no way they could do that
without someone doing the violence for them. The money cleans that from
their conscience, but they are still involved with the abuse because it
is part of the service that they buy.

> https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
> https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE
>
> Try to watch YouTube videos by using hypervideo or youtube
> downloaders.
>
> That is biased articles and even if all that is true, GNU project
> shall be socially and politically independent of all of the opinions
> of their leader or developers.
>
> Because if we would join the GNU project for reason of what their
> individual members are thinking, then it is not GNU project any more.
>
> That we agree on GNU as free operating system, that is what we share
> in common and any other opinion outside of GNU as Free Operating
> System shall be discussed outside of the GNU websites.
>
> I don't mind if such opinions are discussed on mailing lists supported
> by GNU, as such allow two-way communication and responses.
>
> What I am protesting is that rumor mongering is ruining the Guix
> project of being politically independent, they are taking their side
> to feminists politics, or call it how you want, I don't even know,
> but that they are taking their side to certain political movements
> others than free software movement, is what is damaging the GNU as
> politically independent (other politics but free software).
>
> RMS is not require to remain politically independent but he does not
> share his political viewpoints on GNU project, not others but free
> software movement. That is why he has non-GNU www.stallman.org
> website.
>
> Same shall be done by everybody who is supporting GNU project but has
> political stances on other politics but free software, they shall
> publish such opinions on their websites not related to GNU projects.
>
> Jean

-- 
https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-11 13:53]:
> Le jeudi 10 octobre 2019 12:24:35 CEST, vous avez écrit :
> > * Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-10 11:55]:
> > > > I don't know how to defend anybody in public by silencing talk.
> > > 
> > > Answering whenever appropriate, currently only when asked to, and keep
> > > going this way.
> > 
> > I have no such mentality.
> > 
> > I am doing for RMS what I would like that other people do for
> > me. Stand up and raise the voice. Not wait. That is not me.
> 
> Maybe if you were in the position of rms you would think differently, better 
> acknowledging the different tensions et pressions out there.

Dear Alexandre,

I am sorry, I will take this to the mailing list, not let it be
private.

I do not know what RMS thinks, what I know is that GNU project shall
remain apolitical. The only politics that GNU project shall support is
"(1) that users should have control of their own computing (for
instance, through free software) and (2) supporting basic human rights
in computing. We don't require you as a contributor to agree with
these two points, but you do need to accept that our decisions will be
based on them." See:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

RMS has upheld the above points, and was always apolitical in regards
to free software. He knows well that free software can be used to
prevent abortions, and to make abortions. For example it could be
possible to make an automatic robotic hand that does abortion()
function without presence of doctors, and such could be done with free
software.

I know it because I have read freedom zero: "The freedom to run the
program as you wish" -- so it means AS YOU WISH. To kill, or prevent
killing, to abort or not about() I don't care. I am distributing free
software and truly giving that freedom to others.

GNU project shall remain apolitical for anything but free
software.

Thus feminist views of Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
feminists that have published their defaming and libelous statement
on: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
are not welcome on GNU project.

They are preventing contra-feminists to join the Guix project, GNU
project, due to their political views.

GNU project is welcoming feminists, and contra-feminists, but for as
long as the GNU project is not abused to spread out their propaganda.

And nobody is preventing them to publish their opinions outside of GNU
project. If they have balls for that.

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Kete via Discussions about the development of the GNU system 
 [2019-10-12 03:28]:
> On 10/11/2019 04:43 PM, Alexander Vdolainen wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 10/11/19 11:16 PM, Kete via Discussions about the development of the
> > GNU system wrote:
> >> On 10/10/2019 05:02 PM, Jean Louis wrote:
> > ... skipped ...
> >>> Well I don't see it that way. I see it as a hostile fact-less thought 
> >>> police punishing and degrading GNU, Guix, FSF and RMS for the thought 
> >>> crime. See the book 1984
> >>>
> >> I think there's more to it than thoughts. I think RMS said something
> >> offensive and has made MIT a toxic environment for women for many years.
> >>
> > Where did you get this bullshit ?
> >
> https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794

There are already numerous refutals and analyzes on that.

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Try to watch YouTube videos by using hypervideo or youtube
downloaders.

That is biased articles and even if all that is true, GNU project
shall be socially and politically independent of all of the opinions
of their leader or developers.

Because if we would join the GNU project for reason of what their
individual members are thinking, then it is not GNU project any more.

That we agree on GNU as free operating system, that is what we share
in common and any other opinion outside of GNU as Free Operating
System shall be discussed outside of the GNU websites.

I don't mind if such opinions are discussed on mailing lists supported
by GNU, as such allow two-way communication and responses.

What I am protesting is that rumor mongering is ruining the Guix
project of being politically independent, they are taking their side
to feminists politics, or call it how you want, I don't even know,
but that they are taking their side to certain political movements
others than free software movement, is what is damaging the GNU as
politically independent (other politics but free software).

RMS is not require to remain politically independent but he does not
share his political viewpoints on GNU project, not others but free
software movement. That is why he has non-GNU www.stallman.org
website.

Same shall be done by everybody who is supporting GNU project but has
political stances on other politics but free software, they shall
publish such opinions on their websites not related to GNU projects.

Jean

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Ruben Safir]

too bad.  Do you need more email space?  I can lend you some



On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 04:44:03PM +, ng0 wrote:
> Oi.
> Shut up and get another audience for your monologue theater act.
> I am no longer involved in guix that much, but your trash keeps
> piling up in my inbox.

-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive 
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, 
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

On October 10, 2019 8:29:06 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> How are you?
>
>Ehm...  Fine.  What is the occasion to ask?

We are then from different cultures simply. At my side it is always used 
similarly as hand shaking.

>> I [] see absolutely no problem there.
>
>I’m afraid, Dr. Stallman would see.

My protest is not to align all my thoughts with Dr. Stallman, my protest is 
that defamation and harassment of RMS is taking place on Guix.GNU.org website.

It is the code of good conduct of Guix itself where they promised harass-free 
space with respect to other people's opinions. See: 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT

Writing policies while abusing them themselves is hypocrisy and this time it is 
bad enough that caused international online protests.

>> What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers
>but FUD.
>
>To get rid of him, of course.  Why to ask for obvious answer?

Well I don't see it that way. I see it as a hostile fact-less thought police 
punishing and degrading GNU, Guix, FSF and RMS for the thought crime. See the 
book 1984

>Many of your letters contain a footer with a call for lead developers
>of Guix, Guile and GnuPG to leave GNU. 

Exactly. That is my opinion. If myself cannot agree with my own community's 
published  coffee of conduct and the founder and if I am to abuse the platform 
given to me by founder and his work to abuse his image and defame him, then I 
would never do that, I would step down.

Reason that they don't have guts is all the comfort they got from FSF and GNU 
which is, was and is being caused by RMS.

Comfort like this 
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2018/gnu-guix-receives-donation-from-the-handshake-project/
 is hard to resist to get their things straight.

>> They have no respect for RMS.
>
>I hope, that you have, though.  And thus will stop to tear down the
>project he founded.

I have never protested against the GNU project as in itself it cannot cause 
actions. My protest is not against Ludovic Courtès's opinion neither their free 
speech, despite all of their efforts to silence every protestors' voice. See 
their logs for evidences of the plot.

My protest is against defamation of founder of the GNU project and on the GNU 
project's domain!

If Ludovic Courtès would publish it on his website I could probably comment on 
his own website. But he did not. By the way I did not find one mention of Dr. 
Stallman on his pages. Think about that and proper crediting.

Ludovic Courtès published it on Guix website hosted on GNU domain. I am 
objecting to that. And I am not alone, there are already hundreds supporting 
comments from all over the world, podcast and defenses, I am not alone thinker 
and please don't turn my words to something what I have not stated. Same 
strategy was used to defame Stallman. And same was used by Ludovic Courtès on 
their disrespectful statement.

Jean 

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

Jean Louis  wrote:
> How are you?

Ehm...  Fine.  What is the occasion to ask?

> On October 10, 2019 12:39:00 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?
>
> Me for sure not intentionally and Guix managers are anyway conducting 
> censorship... So no big deal.

I suppose, they are not in position to censor gnu-system-disc...@gnu.org.

> You can resend what you wish. I am not forbidding two-way free speech.

Done.

Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
> No need. I am not feeling fear when I state something. So they did not ease 
> with thru FUD and defamation on Guix pages on GNU.org domain, so why MD or 
> others should be silenced? No need.
>
You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of GNU.  
And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to GNU 
project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.
>
> I [] see absolutely no problem there.

I’m afraid, Dr. Stallman would see.

> And free software can be freely used? So what is the loss?

The loss is hidden behind the question, I suggested you to think on: “What the 
point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package nowadays?  Why such 
thing as GNU software still exists at all, when impulse it gave 35 years ago 
was successful and free software is not rare anymore?”

>>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.
>
> Their only loss is for them to lose other 10 dollars donation, that is 
> possible reason for their hostile take over attempt.

> What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers but FUD.

To get rid of him, of course.  Why to ask for obvious answer?

>>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are also 
>>urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.
>
> No, not at all. I am asking people to behave according to GNU kind 
> communication guidelines.

Many of your letters contain a footer with a call for lead developers of Guix, 
Guile and GnuPG to leave GNU.  Even if your claim that Guix depends on FSF 
financially is true, GPG is for sure self-sufficient.

>>Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU and RMS 
>>heritage not to follow you strong advice.
>
> They have no respect for RMS.

I hope, that you have, though.  And thus will stop to tear down the project he 
founded.


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Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

How are you?

On October 10, 2019 12:39:00 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?

Me for sure not intentionally and Guix managers are anyway conducting 
censorship... So no big deal.

You can resend what you wish. I am not forbidding two-way free speech.

>>>Wow!  Ease off a bit!

No need. I am not feeling fear when I state something. So they did not ease 
with thru FUD and defamation on Guix pages on GNU.org domain, so why MD or 
others should be silenced? No need.

>>>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>>>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage
>to
>>>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave. 

I don't see absolutely no problem there. And they also not. Their strategy is 
clear that they want their own community where thought police is to punish 
thought crime. So I let them be. 

Their behavior does not fit into GNU kind communication guidelines.

And free software can be freely used? So what is the loss? Their only loss is 
for them to lose other 10 dollars donation, that is possible reason for 
their hostile take over attempt.


>>>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>>>ended in Guix out of GNU.  

I am last person to convince on that as I am aware of their FUD and harm they 
do to Guix, GNU and RMS. Convince others.

>What the point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package
>nowadays? 

What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers but FUD.

>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are
>also urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.

No, not at all. I am asking people to behave according to GNU kind 
communication guidelines. And if they don't like it to step down and make their 
own platform for their FUD. But using GNU.org domain to defame and harass RMS 
is disaster for future.

>Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU
>and RMS heritage not to follow you strong advice.

They have no respect for RMS. 

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

It is not harmful if Guix remains free software, how it can be?

It is only harmful for Guix.

It was not my decision, it is theirs.


On October 10, 2019 11:39:42 AM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
>> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of
>people starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of
>them could answer my email to provide me with the facts about their
>statement. They are behaving against established implicit and explicit
>GNU guidelines, and so far nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy
>against them. They are danger to GNU project.
>>
>> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging
>GNU project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>>
>> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
>
>Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
>believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
>do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
>leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
>sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?

Jean Louis  wrote:
> On October 10, 2019 11:39:42 AM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>Jean Louis  wrote:
>>> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
>>> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of
>>people starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of
>>them could answer my email to provide me with the facts about their
>>statement. They are behaving against established implicit and explicit
>>GNU guidelines, and so far nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy
>>against them. They are danger to GNU project.
>>>
>>> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging
>>GNU project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>>>
>>> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

Have you noticed, that your MUA produces quoting mess in attempt to hardwrap 
lines while being unable to do that properly?  As there is actually no point in 
hardwrapping lines, you’d better just disable it rather than trying to fix.

>>Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>>
>>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
>>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
>>believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
>>do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
>>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>>ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
>>leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
>>sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.
>
> It is not harmful if Guix remains free software, how it can be?

What the point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package nowadays?  
In other words, why such thing as GNU software still exists at all, when 
impulse it gave 35 years ago was successful and free software is not rare 
anymore?

> It is only harmful for Guix.

I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are also 
urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.

> It was not my decision, it is theirs.

Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU and RMS 
heritage not to follow you strong advice.


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Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Stefan Huchler]

> Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
> You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
> GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
> GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
> believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
> do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
> all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
> ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
> leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
> sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.

I am a Lisp developer mostly Elisp and a Nixos User and have on one
Machine Guix system installed, I believe in Free Software yet I don't
get how on the Guix Website a Article against RMS could be posted and
despite some issues with Nixos partly because of technical reasons but
more so of ideological reasons feel not welcome in the Guix community to
phrase it mildly.

That some devs in a team have different oppinions is one thing but that
they post it on the guix.gnu.org website really puts me off
completely. When that stands on that website, everybody implicitly that
works for that project also stands for that if they want to or not.

That are my opinions I at least have not written a bug report or feature
request here because of that incident and likely more feedback including
some code that could have come in the future from me stands in question.

So surely seperately fork one small linux distro over that is maybe not
very clever, but maybe the FSF should be forked and then yes maybe it's
nessesary to have more forks of projects, when the differences become to
big.

Many similar projects exist because 1 uses GPL and one uses BSD, so if
peopl want a GPL + SJW Edition implicit or explicit in some cases:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/you-cant-open-source-license-morality/

I also don't trust people that can't logically think or cite people
correctly and attack people on strawman arguments on writing good code.

But I don't know your internal processes inside GNU, but I can only say
that for (at least some) outsiders like me it all looks like a big red
flag.

My 2 cents.

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[ng0]

Oi.
Shut up and get another audience for your monologue theater act.
I am no longer involved in guix that much, but your trash keeps
piling up in my inbox.

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

Jean Louis  wrote:
> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of people 
> starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of them could 
> answer my email to provide me with the facts about their statement. They are 
> behaving against established implicit and explicit GNU guidelines, and so far 
> nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy against them. They are danger to GNU 
> project.
>
> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging GNU 
> project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>
> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

Wow!  Ease off a bit!

You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of GNU.  And 
I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to GNU project, than 
urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you believe that forking 
software over political discord is good thing to do (despite it does not align 
well with the rest of your message), by all means, you would not able to 
outcompete them, so it would simply ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more 
harmful than urging RMS to leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will 
leave us and GNU sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.


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Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

to RMS, I just wish he would be using more of his
authority and take over GNU project to RMS back and assign it only to
trusted people.

Those signers are not trusted people. They are all currently abusing
the GNU project, doing exactly that what they have accused RMS of.

> ...  loony girl from salesforce will provide such place, I don't
> know. The point is - it's all *not* about GNU, and gnu.org isn't a
> place for a dummy war of social justice monkeys warriors.  GNU is a
> mostly technical organization built for those who are ready to
> contribute (or use at least) to the free software, and that space
> doesn't have enough room for hysterical monkeys following modern
> leftist movement. Personally, I think that all this political shit
> over RMS is a way to split a community and to get more points for
> this stupid movement.

Let me use some of set theory:

- there is larger and broader community of free software supporters,
  users, which includes the political movements of open source and BSD
  and everything together

- there is smaller community of GNU free software supports who
  understand differences between open source and free software, and
  they are all pretty much friendly to each other. They may like GNU
  project or think being theirs, for example, I think that I am part
  of GNU. Thinking is not same as really having a position in GNU
  project. 

- and there is GNU project which consists of authorized people who are
  actually providing software and maintaining the GNU project.

- and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of
  people starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of
  them could answer my email to provide me with the facts about their
  statement. They are behaving against established implicit and
  explicit GNU guidelines, and so far nobody from FSF is enforcing any
  policy against them. They are danger to GNU project.

My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging
GNU project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.

AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

> > Let us clean GNU.ORG pages from personal opinions on RMS opinions.
> > 
> > They do not even communicate with each other. There is no
> > friendship or sense of community on such statement.
> > 
> > GNU project was created to get a friendly community of hackers,
> > please see GNU manifesto, and not to endorse separations.

> Again, if someone is quite damaged about some political shit (but
> personally I didn't find anything in RMS opinion) or social justice
> thing he or she should go away, gnu is about technical things and
> there are no place for alternatively mind-gifted people cares about
> ... about nothing, but they own importance.

Exactly, they shall remove themselves from GNU project. Let it be.

So far I know several people have resigned from Guix and GNU due to
their hostile behavior against RMS. Several people have stopped
donating money which is real damage to the FSF.

> > What Ludovic Courtès is doing is exactly that, he is producing
> > hatred, separation, making division in the friendly GNU free
> > software community.
> > 
> > Let me repeat, I do not mind what he is saying against RMS, but I
> > do mind that GNU.ORG is platform for his personal opinions.
> > 
> > Further his statement was never collective how it is called, it
> > was his statement and he asked other people to sign.
> > 
> > My opinion on your signing of that defamatory, harassing, biased
> > and fact-less statement is here:
> > https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html
> > 
> > I am entitling you to your opinion. I could not care less what
> > people write about each other, whatever rumours or facts would
> > be. I don't mind.
> > 
> > But I do not approve on publishing that on GUIX website or GNU.ORG
> > website. Neither I approve of publishing such statements without
> > commenting possibility.
> > 
> > That is why I am asking you to speak out your mind now. I will
> > publish your opinion or lack of opinion. I will publish facts you
> > provide me or lack of those facts.
> > 
> > So far there is no fact that support their statements.
> > 
> > Free speech is human right, and RMS has free speech rights, and
> > why he shall be embarassed, defamed, harassed on his own domain?

> Again, I'm agree with you here.

> > Please FSF and whoever is responsible and acting, join in the
> > quest to remove the off-topic politics from GNU.ORG website pages,
> > so that we stick to promotion of free software, just as quoted
> > from here: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html
> > 
> > The only political positions that the GNU Project endorses are (1)
> > that users should have control of their own computing (for
> > instance, through free software) and (2) supporting basic human
> > rights in computing.
> > 
> > Let those few people NOT represent GNU project, as GNU project
> > never harassed anybody in this manner, and let us not allow
> > selected few of them to destroy those good feelings of community.
> > 
> > Jean
> > 

Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Anyone providing gratis mailing list hosting for any small group?

[Jorge Morais Neto]

Hello.  I am the person Adonay is aiding.

On 14 June 2017 at 09:50, Adonay Felipe Nogueira  wrote:
> NOTE: I'm Cc'ing the person I'm aiding, but I don't know if the person is
> subscribed to the list, so I think you should send a wide reply
I have just subscribed to guix-devel.

> However, I'm not the one directly interested in the service, instead,
> I'm aiding the person on contacting you because I don't know if he
> speaks/writes in English yet
I speak English; in fact, I am better at English than at Spanish.

> As part of my attempt to aid the person, I ask if there is someone
> here hosting a mailing list service, preferably gratis, for a small
> group of people and temporary use?
It can also be paid, as long as it is inexpensive.

> If I read correctly, the mailing list is for a religious class/course.
One list would be for school classes; another would be for a Catholic
prayer group (which currently chats online via a WhatsApp group).  And
today I realized I need a third list, for discussing management of the
family's farm; currently we use a Telegram group for that.

-- 
- I am Brazilian.  I hope my English is correct and I welcome feedback
- Please adopt free formats like PDF, ODF, Org, LaTeX, Opus, WebM and 7z
- Free (as in free speech) software for Android: https://f-droid.org/

[OFF-TOPIC] Anyone providing gratis mailing list hosting for any small group?

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

NOTE: I'm Cc'ing the person I'm aiding, but I don't know if the person is
subscribed to the list, so I think you should send a wide reply (reply
to all of us).

Hi all, this might be off-topic because hosting isn't the main subject
of this list, but since there was a topic on providing hosting services
using Guix, I decided to ask again if this is currently being done by
someone.

However, I'm not the one directly interested in the service, instead,
I'm aiding the person on contacting you because I don't know if he
speaks/writes in English yet (I know he is Brazilian, so he also probably
knows a bit of Spanish). As part of my attempt to aid the person, I
ask if there is someone here hosting a mailing list service, preferably
gratis, for a small group of people and temporary use?

If I read correctly, the mailing list is for a religious class/course.


Respectfully, Adonay.
-- 
- [[https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno]]
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
  gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre, por isso não uso. Iguais a ele prefiro
  GNU Ring, ou Tox. Quer outras formas de contato? Adicione o vCard
  que está no endereço acima aos teus contatos.
- Pretende me enviar arquivos .doc, .ppt, .cdr, ou .mp3? OK, eu
  aceito, mas não repasso. Entrego apenas em formatos favoráveis ao
  /software/ livre. Favor entrar em contato em caso de dúvida.