Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi Étienne, On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 10:58, "Etienne B. Roesch" wrote: > The way I use the doc, is by loading the latest manual in the browser as > one page, and use the search function of the browser. That helps but it > also implies I know what I am looking for, and I can fill in the gaps, eg > about context (guix system vs host). Well, I think many of us are doing the same. :-) > I don’t think we necessarily need another outlet, and should maybe just > consolidate what we have. I agree. In order to fill the gaps between the manual and where the beginner is, I think we need tutorials. Plural because a tutorial needs to be adapted, depending on the background. For example, I did a first attempt (in French): https://zimoun.gitlab.io/jres22-tuto-guix/support-notes-additionnelles.pdf Somehow, I think that the missing is practical examples opening the doors to Guix concept. For example, in the previous tutorial, I try to explain what a profile is: the idea was to (1) to feed the concept in order to being able to understand the various mentions in the manual and (2) let the audience connect with what they already know (Conda environment, etc.). Well, it’s far to be satisfying but that an attempt. :-) Other examples I find very helpful are “Dissecting Guix”. Well, they are core concepts and these concepts are not required by newcomers. However, I think that is the sort of missing material: digest of explanations about Guix concept. The manual is complete but intimidating, IMHO. What is missing appears to me sort of Rosetta stones which are self-consistent digest of some specific Guix concept. For example, https://hpc.guix.info/blog/2023/06/a-guide-to-reproducible-research-papers/ is great. Now, each step could lead dedicated posts explaining technical bits. Because, from my experience, what is missing is the ingredients for fixing the issues when applying such guide to user’s use-cases. And to acquire the knowledge of such ingredients, one needs to connect the dot with Guix concepts. Well, for what my opinion is worth. Cheers, simon
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi, On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 at 06:45, Distopico wrote: > - Forum: A good place for beginner an non-technical user (I guess all > Guix user require some technical knowledge), also a good place for > create history and user documentation/solutions. > - Mailing List: For contributors, developers, and more long-terms > questions, as well more advanced users. Please do not take me wrong because my message could appear “elitist”. I hope I have a track record about welcoming newcomers, answering on help-guix mailing and helping on various other forums or media. Well, GNU Guix is currently a technical project and any user will have their hand dirty. If you are non-technical and not able to deal with emails, then sadly GNU Guix is not for you. My point of view is: a forum will not help in a better way the newcomers. Moreover, the maintenance cost of such forum is not free. You speak about history but most forums are ephemeral because they are based on kid-cool web tech, and to my knowledge, mailing list preserves much better the history. Even, most of the help provided by answering to a question is also ephemeral. I am very doubtful about the value in history for most of the question/answers. As an exercise, for instance, none of any messages from December 2016 [1] seems helpful for today troubles. And you can pick any other past months. If we want to help newcomer, then, IMHO, the best is to extract the rare “universal-enough” question/answer and pinpoint them – for instance, improve the documentation (manual or cookbook). Maybe, I am wrong… My point is that forum + mailing lists will scatter where people who answer have to look. And you cannot know in advance if the question will become a long-term question. In that rare case, I do not speak about the discoverability of such configuration using forum + mailing lists. That’s said, some people are not going via “official” media for reporting difficulties and asking help. Instead, they are using stuff like Reddit, Stackoverflow and the like. And as experimented users, in to order to strengthen the community, we should roam on these platforms (quickly answer and/or friendly redirect to “official” media if needed). Last, I advocate for using the most sober technology for exchanging pieces of text and not require the most modern hardware and/or some resource-hungry software (client and server) that many forums implicitly require. An example: try to follow Discourse (e.g., https://discuss.ocaml.org) forum with few-featured Web-browser or even try to deal with it with intermittent internet connection. 1: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2016-12/threads.html > on the other hand I think that the mailing lists create a more conducive > environment for debate than the forum itself, but again, for new user a > Forum is a better place or to find quick solutions which on Irc are hard > to find. I concur at some points. However, I disagree with the proposal that a new forum would be the answer. From my point of view, we should keep the “official” interaction as it is using mailing lists and we need to, time to time, roam on already existing well-known forums instead of creating yet another dedicated space. (Here, I speak about GNU Guix. My answer is different for specific usage of Guix in some context as in scientific research because, although hacker and researcher communities can be joined as it had been done in 10 Years of Guix [2], these both communities have subtle differences. :-)) 2: 10years.guix.gnu.org/ Cheers, simon
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi, On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 19:22, Sarthak Shah wrote: > I think we should seriously consider having a user forum similar to > Debian's User Forum or Nixos' Discourse. Well, I shared my opinion in the other thread: A Forum for Guix Users from Distopico Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0500 https://yhetil.org/guix/87bkg9wigq@riseup.net with my message 86a5unz4ap@gmail.com. And to be explicit: do not count on me for interacting with Discourse. For two reasons: 1. Because I have never find the way to deal with it with intermittent internet connection. How do you deal with such forum in batch-mode? More than often, I process (read and/or answer) the volume of Guix messages off-line. As I am doing right now. :-) For example, before going to somewhere without internet connection (meeting or else) and because I know that I will have some slots of free time (boring meeting or else), well I just fetch the last messages, and then I process the messages. Once back to some internet connection, I send all my replies. Without that batch-mode feature, I would not just read most of the messages and probably I would never answer. For example, today I am not following Haskell or OCaml or Python because Discourse forces me the way of interaction. Well, because I find that way so boring: open my web-browser, click, no filter, etc., I am scrolling only the Discourse of OCaml once per month or so. Maybe I have missed the offline procedure because I have not checked Discourse features since last months (years?). 2. Because I find insane to have such resource-hungry client/server configuration for only exchanging small pieces of text. Instead of calling to require more for doing the same (or sometimes even less) but using more resource, I am calling to the opposite: doing more with less. I strongly think we must collectively reflect on how to do using less. We have to drastically decrease the global CO2 footprint and every gram counts. Obviously, we have to be welcoming. For sure we have to think and re-think and think again and again about the best ways to be welcoming and helpful. However, I disagree that Discourse or similar will bring something on the table. Well, I will not bet that people currently helping in mailing lists would continue to provide answers using Discourse and I will not bet that instead new experienced users would answer to question on Discourse. There is a trade-off between newcomer’s expectations about the way to get help and experienced users who provide such help. I fear that switching to Discourse could indeed meet newcomer’s expectations but loosing those experienced users. Cheers, simon
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Yes, these are good points: the technicality required for dev work may actually deter newcomers, and therefore perhaps a higher-level online forum for beginners to ask questions could lower the barrier to entry. I am revising my vote in favour of the forum :) Etienne On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 4:56 PM Distopico wrote: > > I have been using and participating in other GNU distributions such as > Trisquel and Parabola, but mostly as beholder/viewer. > > After more than 10 year the forum of Trisquel still active, not like 8 > years ago before social media, but is active, and more important is used > mostly for new user, and non-technical user, also the Trisquel forum is > well indexed and when you try to find something related with Trisquel > the forums is the solutions for those issues usuall.y > > Trisquel also have mailing list but used mostly for dev/contributor and > the Irc for also for dev/contributors or more advanced users. > > Parabola as well have a forum/Irc/mailing, but in this case the forum is > not quite active, maybe because the focus of parabola is more advanced > users, also as Parabola user as well I also check Archlinux > documentation to try to fix my issues or Archlinux forums because are > more complete. > > So I don't think a forum crate fragmentation, and the Forum is an entry > place for beginners and unlike Parabola that has the documentation of > Arch, Guix need to have your own solutions and your own documentation > and a forum is a good place to build that. > > So said that: > - Forum: A good place for beginner an non-technical user (I guess all > Guix user require some technical knowledge), also a good place for > create history and user documentation/solutions. > > - Irc: For quick question, developer and contributor discussions and > more advanced users (bridge to Matrix would be good). > > - Mailing List: For contributors, developers, and more long-terms > questions, as well more advanced users. > > on the other hand I think that the mailing lists create a more conducive > environment for debate than the forum itself, but again, for new user a > Forum is a better place or to find quick solutions which on Irc are hard > to find. > >
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Ahmed Khanzada writes: > I like this forum idea. > > In fact, I really think a forum / presence for GNU more generally would > be excellent. > > Yes, you can find dedicated spaces for Emacs, Guix, etc, and there is > #gnu on Libera and some mailing lists. > > But I think we are sorely missing a central point where users can go and > see how they might use Guix, Emacs, etc in conjunction. As well as join > a community centered on GNU as an OS. > > I document using Guix, Emacs, exwm and etc together on various > proprietary online spaces like GitHub, Medium, and Reddit. This is > because there is good foot traffic in these spaces. Both old and new > hackers are present in these spaces. But their proprietary nature is > unfortunate. It would be more ideal to document how to use GNU on an > official GNU platform. > > As of right now, if you approach the GNU community, it just feels like a > disconnected set of packages. I spend a lot of time explaining to people > how GNU is a unique libre operating system which you can extend using > Lisp. I show them examples of how I have a "fullstack" Lisp workstation > with Guix, Emacs, and exwm. After seeing such an example, the concept of > GNU really "clicks" for them. > > I make my living deploying and monitoring applications on servers, so > let me know if I can help setup a social GNU presence. I'm not sure if focusing so much on GNU is a good idea.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
I like this forum idea. In fact, I really think a forum / presence for GNU more generally would be excellent. Yes, you can find dedicated spaces for Emacs, Guix, etc, and there is #gnu on Libera and some mailing lists. But I think we are sorely missing a central point where users can go and see how they might use Guix, Emacs, etc in conjunction. As well as join a community centered on GNU as an OS. I document using Guix, Emacs, exwm and etc together on various proprietary online spaces like GitHub, Medium, and Reddit. This is because there is good foot traffic in these spaces. Both old and new hackers are present in these spaces. But their proprietary nature is unfortunate. It would be more ideal to document how to use GNU on an official GNU platform. As of right now, if you approach the GNU community, it just feels like a disconnected set of packages. I spend a lot of time explaining to people how GNU is a unique libre operating system which you can extend using Lisp. I show them examples of how I have a "fullstack" Lisp workstation with Guix, Emacs, and exwm. After seeing such an example, the concept of GNU really "clicks" for them. I make my living deploying and monitoring applications on servers, so let me know if I can help setup a social GNU presence. Distopico writes: > I have been using and participating in other GNU distributions such as > Trisquel and Parabola, but mostly as beholder/viewer. > > After more than 10 year the forum of Trisquel still active, not like 8 > years ago before social media, but is active, and more important is used > mostly for new user, and non-technical user, also the Trisquel forum is > well indexed and when you try to find something related with Trisquel > the forums is the solutions for those issues usuall.y > > Trisquel also have mailing list but used mostly for dev/contributor and > the Irc for also for dev/contributors or more advanced users. > > Parabola as well have a forum/Irc/mailing, but in this case the forum is > not quite active, maybe because the focus of parabola is more advanced > users, also as Parabola user as well I also check Archlinux > documentation to try to fix my issues or Archlinux forums because are > more complete. > > So I don't think a forum crate fragmentation, and the Forum is an entry > place for beginners and unlike Parabola that has the documentation of > Arch, Guix need to have your own solutions and your own documentation > and a forum is a good place to build that. > > So said that: > - Forum: A good place for beginner an non-technical user (I guess all > Guix user require some technical knowledge), also a good place for > create history and user documentation/solutions. > > - Irc: For quick question, developer and contributor discussions and > more advanced users (bridge to Matrix would be good). > > - Mailing List: For contributors, developers, and more long-terms > questions, as well more advanced users. > > on the other hand I think that the mailing lists create a more conducive > environment for debate than the forum itself, but again, for new user a > Forum is a better place or to find quick solutions which on Irc are hard > to find.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Sarthak Shah writes: > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is a > lot easier to follow threads on forums. > You have all the replies on the same page, compared to clicking on the link > of each reply, realizing it doesn't have the answer, clicking > another link and so on... Well, I could not image we'd move away from mailing lists (for patches, issues)... For QA forum we have the help-guix list, it has an unofficial public-inbox instance at https://yhetil.org/guix-user/ , which show replies in one page, and can be clicked to reply by email... Maybe we can write a more polished web interface for public-inbox. Also today I learned there exist fediverse reddit like sites using lemmy/kbin, where you can get a modern forum experience. eg: https://kbin.social/m/g...@lemmy.ml (not much people there though...) If we can bridge mailing lists with those fediverse sites, that will be cool! 🤔
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Nguyễn Gia Phong via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." writes: > On 2023-07-13 at 16:40+02:00, Andrea Rossi wrote: >> However, I do wonder whether the features in Mailman 3, >> namely Postorius and HyperKitty, might make it easier for new users >> to get started without losing the ability to hone their skills >> in information retrieval and knowledge representation models. > > Were I not subscribed, I'd defo prefer HyperKitty to Mailman basic (?) > web UI. HyperKitty was created precisely for this purpose: > https://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2012/02/29/7750-pixels-of-mailing-list-thread HyperKitty is very nice looking. We don’t host Mailman ourselves, though, so I don’t know how we’d go about setting it up. -- Ricardo
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
On 2023-07-18 at 03:52+02:00, Wilko Meyer wrote: > I'm not sure wether having a web-based user forum solves this issue > as it would be yet another place to look up a potential solution in. > I'd also argue that a web-based forum doesn't provide anything mailing > lists can't when it comes to the ability to have threaded discussions. It's not like you can't have both at the same time, as in a writable web UI that on user foo's behalf send an email from address foo@guix.example. Email being emails means that this can be run along side the current mailing list without fragmenting the knowledge base. On 2023-07-13 at 16:40+02:00, Andrea Rossi wrote: > However, I do wonder whether the features in Mailman 3, > namely Postorius and HyperKitty, might make it easier for new users > to get started without losing the ability to hone their skills > in information retrieval and knowledge representation models. Were I not subscribed, I'd defo prefer HyperKitty to Mailman basic (?) web UI. HyperKitty was created precisely for this purpose: https://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2012/02/29/7750-pixels-of-mailing-list-thread
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi Sarthak, Sarthak Shah writes: > As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their > problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as > they aren't very easy to navigate compared to forum threads. I'm not sure wether having a web-based user forum solves this issue as it would be yet another place to look up a potential solution in. I'd also argue that a web-based forum doesn't provide anything mailing lists can't when it comes to the ability to have threaded discussions. In my opinion there are two things to potentially solve here: - discoverability of information across the various places where these could've been found (debbugs, mailing list archives, irc logs, docs); which more or less boils down to having better search options. - if there are questions that common that they usually get asked frequently/looked up frequently, that's usually an indicator to improve documentation on the topic. > It would also immensely help to have community discussions and other forms of > information concentrated in one > location instead of split over the IRC and the mailing list. This would most likely mean a split across three locations, IRC, mailing list and a potential forum, instead of just two then. Regards, Wilko Meyer
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> Like I've mentioned on fedi before, advocates of Lispy languages tend to > talk a lot about what's possible with the language, but the truth is > that the actual tooling that matters simply isn't very good, and having > an S-expression based syntax doesn't magically make writing the kinds of > refactoring tools that Java developers have been enjoying for 10+ years > significantly easier. > For that we need good static analysis, and unbounded dynamism and too > much syntax magic makes that more difficult. > At the very least I want to be able to rename variables across the whole > project and jump to definitions reliably. i came to Common Lisp from that world, and i don't miss those tools one bit. those refactoring tools in the java world feel so useful exactly because of the linguistic inability to formally express abstractions in the language. when lisp is used properly (which includes discipline while naming abstractions!) then one doesn't miss those tools. a related quote that captures this sentiment: “[Design] Patterns mean "I have run out of language."” — Rich Hickey but i agree that there's plenty of room for improvement in the lisp tooling, even for just Guile + Geiser to catch up with CL + Slime. and i also agree that the learning curve is way too steep with Emacs + lisp tools. ultiamtely, i think it's worth it, but it does require quite some determination and frustration tolerance. > ps.: As far as I can tell, the Lisps with good IDEs are image based, not > source based, that's why they have an easier time doing metaprogramming, > because the runtime helps a lot. But an image based system is not > exactly in line with Guix's goal of reproducibility. all lisps are image based in the sense that they are a VM once the source has been loaded... no? but, unfortunately, all (non-obsolete) lisps use flat text files to represent the source code. java tools turn that flat text source code into a graph and work on the graph, and does this text-graph-text conversion transparently for the user. but it's only possible to do this conversion in languages that have a relatively little degree of freedom... which translates to less freedom to express abstractions... which in turn translates to a greater need for refactoring tools. again, i most agree with you. what i wanted to express is that there's much more to this topic. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- “It's surprising how many persons go through life without ever recognizing that their feelings toward other people are largely determined by their feelings toward themselves, and if you're not comfortable within yourself, you can't be comfortable with others.” — Sydney J. Harris
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi! Being somewhat of a beginner myself, or at least a newcomer, I can relate to the steep learning curve. I also attempted the supervision of psychology students on a guix hackathon (as an experiment) not too long ago: utter beginners and we focused on reviewing the documentation, with the idea of creating material for beginners. More on that soon, hopefully. The missing “search” feature that seems to have triggered this thread, is indeed important, from a beginner’s perspective, I think. But I tend to agree with the later post warning about the multiplicity of ways to connect and get information: the information that beginners need really is in the current documentation, which at times can be opaque or confusing (going back and forth between guix system native and guix package manager on a host, without necessarily explicit warning; or possible discrepancies between the manual and the cookbook), and could use a bit of TLC. The way I use the doc, is by loading the latest manual in the browser as one page, and use the search function of the browser. That helps but it also implies I know what I am looking for, and I can fill in the gaps, eg about context (guix system vs host). I don’t think we necessarily need another outlet, and should maybe just consolidate what we have. If ways to connect to the community are explicit (and they currently aren't very visible), I don't think beginners would need another portal or forum, or another way to read issues from git. Also really, reading git commit messages should not be the way to inform beginners. Of note, I currently have access to: (I am hugely grateful to the many people who answered what might have seemed an endless stream of questions on irc.!) - google, as well as the doc and the cookbook - this mailing list and others: guix-devel, guix-help, ... 8 in total and they all have archives: https://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=guix - the irc channels, #guix #nonguix #guix-hpc #systemcrafters #systemcrafters-help #guix-offtopic: https://guix.gnu.org/en/contact/irc/ (with logs: https://logs.guix.gnu.org) - the guix-hpc events like monthly cafe guix: https://hpc.guix.info/events/2022/café-guix/ - and the mattermost server by the same people: https://mattermost.univ-nantes.fr/signup_user_complete/?id=njdxbdazafddtq6wsm6cgrr95r Have a great day! Etienne On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 23:39, wrote: > On 2023-07-13 21:52, Sarthak Shah wrote: > > Hey Guix, > > I think we should seriously consider having a user forum similar to > > Debian's User Forum or Nixos' Discourse. > > > > As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their > > problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very easy to > > navigate compared to forum threads. Seeing the situation with RHEL, I > think > > now's the perfect time for us to acquire new HPC/stability-oriented users > > in particular, and I believe that most of them would not be very > > IRC/mailing list-savvy either. > > It would also immensely help to have community discussions and other > forms > > of information concentrated in one location instead of split over the IRC > > and the mailing list. > > > > If we are to go ahead with making a forum, I think I'm speaking for a lot > > of people here when I say that I don't want a forum that cannot be used > > without Javascript or cannot be built/deployed with Guix. Given these > > constraints, Discourse is not a good option as it does not build on Guix. > > phpBB and SMF are two good options we could look into, although they > look a > > little dated compared to discourse. Flarum might also be worth looking > > into, but I am not sure if it will build properly on Guix. > > > > Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly > > appreciated! > > > > Regards, > > Sarthak. > > A great idea. I would use a forum. I would say just go ahead and set up > a forum yourself, and I'll bring some people along that I know from the > fediverse. > > ~vidak > >
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Pjotr Prins writes: > If the xapian indexer also analysed mailing list output (through > publicinbox, for example) and maybe debbugs and IRC logs it would be > complete. It does index the IRC logs, but there’s a bug in the deployment: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/goggles.scm#n56 >> 5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor >> due to peering issues. > > That is a matter of money, I guess. Peering issues can only be avoided by distributing the artifacts to many different locations. We’ve previously paid for distribution via AWS, which was rather expensive. It might be better to revive the distribution over IPFS. -- Ricardo
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Pjotr Prins writes: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 02:10:49PM -0700, Felix Lechner via Development of > GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. wrote: ... >> 1. Our community is small, and possibly shrinking. > > I doubt that is true in absolute terms. You should see where we were > 10 years ago :). Guile and Racket made impressive gains the last > years. > > In relative terms we can't compete and should not aim > to do so with either Guix or Guile. > >> 2. Scheme is a niche language that is not being promoted enough. > > Lisp will always be niche. Why would it change in half a century? The > power of Lisp comes from its syntax - but it is a barrier to entry at > the same time. I am always amazed they came up with that early in CS > history. Like I've mentioned on fedi before, advocates of Lispy languages tend to talk a lot about what's *possible* with the language, but the truth is that the actual tooling that matters simply isn't very good, and having an S-expression based syntax doesn't magically make writing the kinds of refactoring tools that Java developers have been enjoying for 10+ years significantly easier. For that we need good *static analysis*, and unbounded dynamism and too much syntax magic makes that *more* difficult. At the very least I want to be able to rename variables across the whole project and jump to definitions reliably. Before trying to convince me otherwise in replies, please go and try Eclipse, or even JetBrains if you have access to it (I think it has an open source version??), just so you know what you are up against as a free software advocate trying to convince developers to use Scheme. I was set out to hate JetBrains when I had to use it in uni this semester, but I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to use. I'm not saying this to advertise Java tools, I'm saying this to snap Lispers out of the reality distortion bubble some of them seem to be stuck in. TLDR: instead of looking for excuses for why no one gets Lisp, we should be actually addressing the complaints. Then maybe people will start getting Lisp. ps.: As far as I can tell, the Lisps with good IDEs are image based, not source based, that's why they have an easier time doing metaprogramming, because the runtime helps a lot. But an image based system is not exactly in line with Guix's goal of reproducibility.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 02:10:49PM -0700, Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. wrote: > Hi Robby and Sarthak, > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 7:17 AM Robby Zambito wrote: > > > > I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation > > relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs > > I'm technically one of the administrators of forums.debian.net and > would not recommend web-based "forums" to projects that do not have > them. They are hard to search and even harder to police. Also, the > software tends to be based on dated technologies. There are better > ways to help people in need. Thanks to Arun we rolled our own issue tracker and knowledge base with https://issues.genenetwork.org/ Written in Guile the interface is simple, the backend is simply a git repo (can be hosted anywhere), and it uses a xapian search indexer. Personally I think this is an awesome way of tracking information and allows reorganising information and rewriting history. The tags are arbitrary - though we clearly focussed on an issue tracker here. If the xapian indexer also analysed mailing list output (through publicinbox, for example) and maybe debbugs and IRC logs it would be complete. https://public-inbox.org/README.html Key thing is that people can post, answer questions, track issues etc. and make it all findable. Fun - but probably useless - fact is that we can also serve it over gemini. > The points that were mentioned resonate with me, but I actually find > Guix's documentation quite good already (possibly even second after > Arch). +1. > We have five broad issues, however: > > 1. Our community is small, and possibly shrinking. I doubt that is true in absolute terms. You should see where we were 10 years ago :). Guile and Racket made impressive gains the last years. In relative terms we can't compete and should not aim to do so with either Guix or Guile. > 2. Scheme is a niche language that is not being promoted enough. Lisp will always be niche. Why would it change in half a century? The power of Lisp comes from its syntax - but it is a barrier to entry at the same time. I am always amazed they came up with that early in CS history. > 3. Guix uses a complex file layout that's different from most other > distributions. We have the fhs bindings. But yeah, that is another barrier. > 4. Our master branch often suffers from small defects that prevent > declared systems (and home configurations) from being updated in full. I think the stable releases try to address that. But I agree, Guix is a moving target. I don't see that changing much. > 5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor > due to peering issues. That is a matter of money, I guess. > Personally, I think that promoting GNU Guile in other settings has > perhaps the best potential to lower our barriers to entry. People > should not be writing shell scripts in 2023. They always will, including me. I am, however, giving Guile talks and promote rash and gash. I am submitting a talk to ICFP Seattle. https://icfp23.sigplan.org/home/declmed-2023 You can still do that too. I know they have slots. > Other than that, everyone can make themselves available to help folks > with difficulties on the existing mailing lists. > > Everyone writes something silly from time to time. It's not a big > deal. The helping hand is what counts! Thanks! Pj.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Le 15 juillet 2023 23:00:43 GMT+02:00, MSavoritias a écrit : > >Attila Lendvai writes: > >>> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. >>> I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that >>> purpose. >>> As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. >> >> >> it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier >> questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's >> primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time, >> ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping >> discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine >> crawlers... >> >> i think it all boils down to this: >> >> mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying >> data model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack >> structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user. > >Good point. >My thinking is that next we miss too things for that: > >1. Easy search and indexing of our docs. Which already exists for the >most part. Searching for occurunces of words like grep or a full blown >wiki like gentoo or arch would be an interesting future approach. >2. We need something easier than gnu info to contribute docs. As I have >read a lot in irc for it to be a barrier. And personally its one of the >main reasons i havent contributed yet. That I need time to learn >it. That and I can't easily change or add Docs. I have to do pull >requests and such. At least for the cookbook, we can accept other formats, and a commiter will convert to the proper info format. What matters is the content, and you don't even have to create a patch, just send a chapter to the ML :) > >Thats why I was also aggreeing with Sourcehut in the other email. (Which >already has guix ci support.) Guix would benefit from less NIH imo. At >least in places where there already better solutions. > >Msavoritias > >> -- >> • attila lendvai >> • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 > >
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Attila Lendvai writes: >> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. >> I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that >> purpose. >> As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. > > > it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier > questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's > primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time, > ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping > discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine > crawlers... > > i think it all boils down to this: > > mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying data > model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack > structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user. Good point. My thinking is that next we miss too things for that: 1. Easy search and indexing of our docs. Which already exists for the most part. Searching for occurunces of words like grep or a full blown wiki like gentoo or arch would be an interesting future approach. 2. We need something easier than gnu info to contribute docs. As I have read a lot in irc for it to be a barrier. And personally its one of the main reasons i havent contributed yet. That I need time to learn it. That and I can't easily change or add Docs. I have to do pull requests and such. Thats why I was also aggreeing with Sourcehut in the other email. (Which already has guix ci support.) Guix would benefit from less NIH imo. At least in places where there already better solutions. Msavoritias > -- > • attila lendvai > • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> > > I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation > > > relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the > > > places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional > > > frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good. > > > Imo, fragmentation is abound in Guix. > > The official docs, while very good, is missing things that often need to > be answered by reading the source/commit log. Some examples: the manual also, reading the entire manual has an large cost, when e.g. i'm trying out a new distro and i have a limited time and tolerance for frustration. i'll be firing up websearches, skim past discussions, and then as a last resort peek into the code... but i will not read the manual from front to back in that phase. i'm not sure how representative a sample i am, though. > If it's not in the manual, I (and probably many others) turn to my > search engine. But there's a relative lack of blogs covering usage of ...or straight out start with the search engine, and only after that try to browse the relevant part of the manual. > Guix, probably because most people have difficulty using Guix on nonfree > hardware. And the unofficial forums for Guix on Reddit/Lemmy, where yeah, the idealist in me is fully behind the free software fundamentalist stance to not even mention That Other Channel, but the realist in me also sees that it potentially turns away hordes of new users who run out of frustration-tolerance before they could even install the distro and begin playing with it... > Compare this to Nix. It's likely more popular because users have access > to the most number of updated packages on their (likely nonfree) > computers and OSes (as Nix works on Mac). These users then write blog > posts and engage with their community to espouse how amazing their Nix > experience is, which in turn serves as informal documentation. More > users = more contributors = more blog posts and engagement = more users > = positive feedback loop. FWIW, i came to Guix from Nix, and the difference for me in user and contributor experience was enormous. from a technical perspective, i find Guix superior enough to compensate for it, though. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. > I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that > purpose. > As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time, ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine crawlers... i think it all boils down to this: mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying data model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- “If you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will knock down everything that stands in its way.” — Émile Zola (1840–1902)
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> I'm technically one of the administrators of forums.debian.net and > would not recommend web-based "forums" to projects that do not have > them. They are hard to search and even harder to police. Also, the > software tends to be based on dated technologies. There are better > ways to help people in need. i'm wondering, does that include something like stackexchange.com ? i know that it's not free software, but i'm wondering whether you are saying that a static documentation plus a mailing list is superior to something like stackexchange (i.e. a modern forum engine with tags and all the bells and whistles, and it's well-integrated into general search engines)? because that would go against my experience, very much. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- “The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem of limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small children and great nations.” — David D. Friedman (1945–), 'The Machinery of Freedom' (1973)
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
On 2023-07-15 at 02:47+05:30, Sarthak Shah wrote: > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists > is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums. > > You have all the replies on the same page, compared to clicking > on the link of each reply, realizing it doesn't have the answer, > clicking another link and so on... Csepp suggested Sourcehut earlier which has the desired UI/UX, e.g. https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-discuss/%3C20230416195341.0b20bda8a213c8cb868d711f%40posteo.net%3E The best thing about email (list) is interopability, which means not only we can run Sourcehut lists along side Mailman as an alternative frontend (by simply forwarding) or smoothly transition to it, but also every subscriber also have a replica to index as one wishes. While forum implementations usually do support email notification, they are second-class presentation missing certain metadata such as threading information (In-Reply-To).
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Csepp writes: > Robby Zambito writes: > >> Hi Sarthak, >> >>> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their >>> problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very >>> easy to navigate compared to forum threads. >> >> I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation >> relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the >> places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional >> frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good. > > Sourcehut has full-time employees working on making these accessible, so > it really boggles my mind why we aren't using that instead of Savannah > and Debbugs. > We could also bridge IRC to Matrix (even though the company behind it > has some people who... let's say like the taste of leather too much). > Pine64 has a great chat setup actually, their channels are bridged to a > whole bunch of services. Not saying we must also bridge with Discord, > but at least the libre options should be considered. > Hey, Very much agreed with Sourcehut as a much better frontend for guix. Plus its AGPL3 licensed all of it afaik. Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that purpose. As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. MSavoritias >> I have never found myself participating in distro-specific forums; I >> have always used them as read-only sources of information. Yet here I am >> participating in the Guix mailing lists :). I bet I am not alone in this >> experience. >> >> Also FWIW, Guix was basically my introduction to participating in >> mailing lists. So I wouldn't say I am biased in my old ways of doing >> things - I just genuinely think it's a good way to handle communication. >> >> Robby > > Guix is also the first project I contributed to in a major way over > mailing lists and my experience is that if you don't keep up to date > with the list, the lackluster search and linking will be a major pain in > the buttocks. It is usable for experts, but is absolutely not > beginner-friendly. > But even experts would benefit from a better workflow.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi Sarthak, On 13/07/23 15:52, Sarthak Shah wrote: [...] Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly appreciated! Personally, I hate web-based forums as much as I love mailing lists - especially when used with netiquette. It's such an ingrained prejudice that I think it's fair for me to refrain from discussing whether a forum is beneficial to new users. However, I do wonder whether the features in Mailman 3, namely Postorius and HyperKitty, might make it easier for new users to get started without losing the ability to hone their skills in information retrieval and knowledge representation models. Regards, Andrea
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi! I saw this thread mentioned in #guix. Csepp 写道: We could also bridge IRC to Matrix This will happen if EMS (representing ‘Matrix’ here) fixes the mysterious errors that are currently plaguing channels trying to migrate from portalled⁰ to plumbed⁰ rooms. Kind regards, T G-R [0]: https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
On 7/13/23 11:21, Csepp wrote: Robby Zambito writes: Hi Sarthak, As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very easy to navigate compared to forum threads. I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good. Imo, fragmentation is abound in Guix. The official docs, while very good, is missing things that often need to be answered by reading the source/commit log. Some examples: the manual is missing API documentation for many of the Guile functions for the Guix DSL. The custom kernel chapter in the cookbook doesn't mention using #:extra-options keyword yet. The packaging videos on the website still refer to old-style inputs, and there's no section in the cookbook that describes packaging paradigms such as avoiding assoc-ref. If it's not in the manual, I (and probably many others) turn to my search engine. But there's a relative lack of blogs covering usage of Guix, probably because most people have difficulty using Guix on nonfree hardware. And the unofficial forums for Guix on Reddit/Lemmy, where there's the occasional question, commonly answered by "I don't know, did you read the manual/ask the mailing list/IRC?" Yes, I end up on the mailing list and IRC, but that's because it's not easy to find information that's not in the manual. Compare this to Nix. It's likely more popular because users have access to the most number of updated packages on their (likely nonfree) computers and OSes (as Nix works on Mac). These users then write blog posts and engage with their community to espouse how amazing their Nix experience is, which in turn serves as informal documentation. More users = more contributors = more blog posts and engagement = more users = positive feedback loop. The positive feedback loop is comparatively lacking on Guix, which might explain the "small, and possibly shrinking" community (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-07/msg00072.html). There should some instruction to learn the "Guix way" in an organized and efficient manner, as well as to encourage users to document their experiences and share them online. If a forum helps with this, then I would support it. Sourcehut has full-time employees working on making these accessible, so it really boggles my mind why we aren't using that instead of Savannah and Debbugs. I would support a migration to Sourcehut. It really has brought the forge to mailing list development. Maybe Guix can host their own Sourcehut instance, after sourcehut is packaged.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is > > a lot easier to follow threads on forums. > > Have you thought about maybe using Debbugs to compartmentalize the > discussions of some topics? Besides debbugs, I recall one other interesting example of integration between email and the web — the Trisquel forums[1]. Users there have a choice to use either the web interface of email to read posts and write responses. Also, there's Redmine[2] which seems to support something similar [1] https://trisquel.info/en/forum/general-free-software-talk [2] https://www.redmine.org/ -- (sig_start) website: https://koszko.org/koszko.html fingerprint: E972 7060 E3C5 637C 8A4F 4B42 4BC5 221C 5A79 FD1A follow me on Fediverse: https://friendica.me/profile/koszko/profile ♥ R29kIGlzIHRoZXJlIGFuZCBsb3ZlcyBtZQ== | ÷ c2luIHNlcGFyYXRlZCBtZSBmcm9tIEhpbQ== ✝ YnV0IEplc3VzIGRpZWQgdG8gc2F2ZSBtZQ== | ? U2hhbGwgSSBiZWNvbWUgSGlzIGZyaWVuZD8= -- (sig_end) On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:26:27 -0700 Felix Lechner via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." wrote: > HI Sarthak, > > On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:18 PM Sarthak Shah wrote: > > > > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is > > a lot easier to follow threads on forums. > > Have you thought about maybe using Debbugs to compartmentalize the > discussions of some topics? > > I think that works well in Debian, even though email is admittedly > based on even older technology than forums.debian.net. > > Kind regards > Felix > pgpGzdxGcRmUo.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
HI Sarthak, On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:18 PM Sarthak Shah wrote: > > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is a > lot easier to follow threads on forums. Have you thought about maybe using Debbugs to compartmentalize the discussions of some topics? I think that works well in Debian, even though email is admittedly based on even older technology than forums.debian.net. Kind regards Felix
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hey Andy, That's definitely not the case. I've used that method of search with other GNU/Linux distribution forums, and it has always worked. Have you had that issue before? The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums. You have all the replies on the same page, compared to clicking on the link of each reply, realizing it doesn't have the answer, clicking another link and so on... Furthermore it'll be easier to distinguish between contributors and users, which I think will be a necessity if we grow. On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 1:50 AM Andy Tai wrote: > forums are not good because they are not as transparent as mailing > lists--you can search the guix mailing lists with Google, Bing or > whatever search engine you use, for example. Forum? probably not > > Maybe an editable (wiki) site for FAQ will be good for sharing common > questions/answers. > >
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi Robby and Sarthak, On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 7:17 AM Robby Zambito wrote: > > I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation > relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs I'm technically one of the administrators of forums.debian.net and would not recommend web-based "forums" to projects that do not have them. They are hard to search and even harder to police. Also, the software tends to be based on dated technologies. There are better ways to help people in need. The points that were mentioned resonate with me, but I actually find Guix's documentation quite good already (possibly even second after Arch). We have five broad issues, however: 1. Our community is small, and possibly shrinking. 2. Scheme is a niche language that is not being promoted enough. 3. Guix uses a complex file layout that's different from most other distributions. 4. Our master branch often suffers from small defects that prevent declared systems (and home configurations) from being updated in full. 5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor due to peering issues. Personally, I think that promoting GNU Guile in other settings has perhaps the best potential to lower our barriers to entry. People should not be writing shell scripts in 2023. Other than that, everyone can make themselves available to help folks with difficulties on the existing mailing lists. Everyone writes something silly from time to time. It's not a big deal. The helping hand is what counts! Kind regards Felix
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
forums are not good because they are not as transparent as mailing lists--you can search the guix mailing lists with Google, Bing or whatever search engine you use, for example. Forum? probably not Maybe an editable (wiki) site for FAQ will be good for sharing common questions/answers.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
On 2023-07-13 21:52, Sarthak Shah wrote: > Hey Guix, > I think we should seriously consider having a user forum similar to > Debian's User Forum or Nixos' Discourse. > > As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their > problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very easy to > navigate compared to forum threads. Seeing the situation with RHEL, I think > now's the perfect time for us to acquire new HPC/stability-oriented users > in particular, and I believe that most of them would not be very > IRC/mailing list-savvy either. > It would also immensely help to have community discussions and other forms > of information concentrated in one location instead of split over the IRC > and the mailing list. > > If we are to go ahead with making a forum, I think I'm speaking for a lot > of people here when I say that I don't want a forum that cannot be used > without Javascript or cannot be built/deployed with Guix. Given these > constraints, Discourse is not a good option as it does not build on Guix. > phpBB and SMF are two good options we could look into, although they look a > little dated compared to discourse. Flarum might also be worth looking > into, but I am not sure if it will build properly on Guix. > > Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly > appreciated! > > Regards, > Sarthak. A great idea. I would use a forum. I would say just go ahead and set up a forum yourself, and I'll bring some people along that I know from the fediverse. ~vidak
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Robby Zambito writes: > Hi Sarthak, > >> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their >> problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very >> easy to navigate compared to forum threads. > > I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation > relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the > places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional > frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good. Sourcehut has full-time employees working on making these accessible, so it really boggles my mind why we aren't using that instead of Savannah and Debbugs. We could also bridge IRC to Matrix (even though the company behind it has some people who... let's say like the taste of leather too much). Pine64 has a great chat setup actually, their channels are bridged to a whole bunch of services. Not saying we must also bridge with Discord, but at least the libre options should be considered. > I have never found myself participating in distro-specific forums; I > have always used them as read-only sources of information. Yet here I am > participating in the Guix mailing lists :). I bet I am not alone in this > experience. > > Also FWIW, Guix was basically my introduction to participating in > mailing lists. So I wouldn't say I am biased in my old ways of doing > things - I just genuinely think it's a good way to handle communication. > > Robby Guix is also the first project I contributed to in a major way over mailing lists and my experience is that if you don't keep up to date with the list, the lackluster search and linking will be a major pain in the buttocks. It is usable for experts, but is absolutely not beginner-friendly. But even experts would benefit from a better workflow.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi Sarthak, > As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their > problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very > easy to navigate compared to forum threads. I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good. I have never found myself participating in distro-specific forums; I have always used them as read-only sources of information. Yet here I am participating in the Guix mailing lists :). I bet I am not alone in this experience. Also FWIW, Guix was basically my introduction to participating in mailing lists. So I wouldn't say I am biased in my old ways of doing things - I just genuinely think it's a good way to handle communication. Robby