Re: [h-cost] RE: Re: 1844 Corset Again-Busk Questions

[Ingrid G . Storrø]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I don't know if my comments will help at all, but I have a corset with
> a spoon busk and the front edge of that corset was straight too... It
> rounds around the outside of the busk, there's no real curve in the
> center section of the busk where the hooks and bulb-things meet.

I've seen modern "spoon" busks that are flat in profile, is that what
you used? Or did you use a curved one like they sell at farthingales?
http://www.farthingales.on.ca/busks.php I've never tried using a spoon
busk myself but have been toying with the idea, so hearing about other
people's experiences is valuable. :)

Ingrid

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Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi Heather,
Thanks for your valuable informations. I went to a craftstore, after work 
today, and found stainless steel plates. They are just the thickness i want. 
I just cut out a flower with my scissors, worked ok, but it is a little 
difficult. Then i hammered holes with a nail and hammer, worked fine two.
Its very difficult to draw the shape to the steel because it goes away when 
i touch with my fingers, but i thoaght about tracing the flower to painting 
tape, wich i then will take over the steel, and then cut out. Then remove 
the tape after.
I can imagine it is better to stamp out the shapes, but i want a particular 
shape, because i want the same as an embroidered suit has, guess my skills 
will improve with the numbers i make.

Thanks a lot for your help Heather...

Bjarne


- Original Message - 
From: "heather jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?



On Jun 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:


Hi,
In recreating materials found in 18th century embroidery, i thoaght i 
might could use this for shaped spangels or Paillons as they were called. 
These were cut from silver plates, and often vernished in different 
shining collours. I would like to try it. Does any of you know this 
material? Is it hard to cut out, can you use an ordinary scissors? I am 
in need of some cut like a flower with 5 leaves.

Also how would you make the holes for sewing?
I am making silver embroidery, but i am not sattisfied with those flowers 
i use as a substitute for Paillons, they are two dimentional, should be 
more flat.

Greatly apreciate if any of you have tryed it!



I don't remember if my friend Chris is on this list -- she would give a 
better answer than me on her experiments with these.  She has been having 
some success making paillons (or "bezants" under one of the medieval 
names) out of thin metal sheets sold for craft purposes.  To make the 
shape, she uses stamps sold for stamping leather, which come in a lot of 
the same types of shapes that were used historically for these.  You place 
the metal sheet on a surface that is stiff but will "give" a little.  A 
thick piece of leather works very well.  Then stamp the shapes using the 
stamps and a hammer.  After that you can cut them out of the sheet using 
ordinary scissors (but don't use scissors you ever plan to use for fabric 
again!) and punch holes for sewing using a heavy needle or a small awl, 
again using the leather as a backing.  It seems to work best if you stamp 
all the shapes on the metal sheet first and then cut them all out at the 
same time.  Chris has been working mostly with brass but I think the same 
technique would work with silver (if you want to spend the money!) or with 
silver-plated brass or copper.


Heather
--
!! Computer crash lost recent e-mail -- please contact if I owe you mail 
!!

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
heatherrosejones.com
lj:hrj

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Re: [h-cost] Corset at Manchester Galleries

[michaela]

> I think there is a picture of the Manchester stays in "Corsets and
> Crinolines", with a later date. I have a drawing from a student of
> the same stays, also dated later. I think that date given was 1670 -
> court dress of this time had the tops of the shoulders exposed.

I just got out Cut of Women's Clothes also by Waugh, the 1968 printing, and
plate 10 shows the stays laid out and a date of 1645 is given.
"10. 1645. Corset of cherry red satin, bound with turquoise ribbon. El
Wilson Filmer collection. Art gallery, Hull
This corset shows the low horizontal neck line as seen in the back view on
Plate 12."

And plate 12 is a paiting "La Toilette" G. ter Borch, Rijksmuseum Amsterdam.

Just thought I'd pass that on.

I love this book by the way. I'm just glad I finally got my hands on a copy!

Michaela
http://glittersweet.com



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Re: [h-cost] RE: Re: 1844 Corset Again-Busk Questions

[michaela]

> I've seen modern "spoon" busks that are flat in profile, is that what
> you used? Or did you use a curved one like they sell at farthingales?
> http://www.farthingales.on.ca/busks.php I've never tried using a spoon
> busk myself but have been toying with the idea, so hearing about other
> people's experiences is valuable. :)

Thanks for that, I'll save this info for later, in case anyone asks where to
get a curved busk from.

I too find them invaulable especially when people can give explanations for
the various qualities of their supplies:)


Michaela
http://glittersweet.com




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Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?

[Natalie]

Instead of scissors, you could maybe try using tin snips. They can cut pretty 
thick metal, so it might be easier on your hands to use those.

Natalie

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bjarne og Leif Drews 
  To: Historical Costume 
  Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 9:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?


  Hi Heather,
  Thanks for your valuable informations. I went to a craftstore, after work 
  today, and found stainless steel plates. They are just the thickness i want. 
  I just cut out a flower with my scissors, worked ok, but it is a little 
  difficult. Then i hammered holes with a nail and hammer, worked fine two.
  Its very difficult to draw the shape to the steel because it goes away when 
  i touch with my fingers, but i thoaght about tracing the flower to painting 
  tape, wich i then will take over the steel, and then cut out. Then remove 
  the tape after.
  I can imagine it is better to stamp out the shapes, but i want a particular 
  shape, because i want the same as an embroidered suit has, guess my skills 
  will improve with the numbers i make.
  Thanks a lot for your help Heather...

  Bjarne


  - Original Message - 
  From: "heather jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 5:29 AM
  Subject: Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?


  > On Jun 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
  >
  >> Hi,
  >> In recreating materials found in 18th century embroidery, i thoaght i 
  >> might could use this for shaped spangels or Paillons as they were called. 
  >> These were cut from silver plates, and often vernished in different 
  >> shining collours. I would like to try it. Does any of you know this 
  >> material? Is it hard to cut out, can you use an ordinary scissors? I am 
  >> in need of some cut like a flower with 5 leaves.
  >> Also how would you make the holes for sewing?
  >> I am making silver embroidery, but i am not sattisfied with those flowers 
  >> i use as a substitute for Paillons, they are two dimentional, should be 
  >> more flat.
  >> Greatly apreciate if any of you have tryed it!
  >>
  >
  > I don't remember if my friend Chris is on this list -- she would give a 
  > better answer than me on her experiments with these.  She has been having 
  > some success making paillons (or "bezants" under one of the medieval 
  > names) out of thin metal sheets sold for craft purposes.  To make the 
  > shape, she uses stamps sold for stamping leather, which come in a lot of 
  > the same types of shapes that were used historically for these.  You place 
  > the metal sheet on a surface that is stiff but will "give" a little.  A 
  > thick piece of leather works very well.  Then stamp the shapes using the 
  > stamps and a hammer.  After that you can cut them out of the sheet using 
  > ordinary scissors (but don't use scissors you ever plan to use for fabric 
  > again!) and punch holes for sewing using a heavy needle or a small awl, 
  > again using the leather as a backing.  It seems to work best if you stamp 
  > all the shapes on the metal sheet first and then cut them all out at the 
  > same time.  Chris has been working mostly with brass but I think the same 
  > technique would work with silver (if you want to spend the money!) or with 
  > silver-plated brass or copper.
  >
  > Heather
  > -- 
  > !! Computer crash lost recent e-mail -- please contact if I owe you mail 
  > !!
  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > heatherrosejones.com
  > lj:hrj
  >
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Re: [h-cost] Corset at Manchester Galleries

[Kate M Bunting]

I was away when the original message was posted and, when I got back,
couldn't access the page. Now I have seen the corset, I agree with what
others have said. The long waist and dropped shoulders suggest to me the
1650s-60s.

Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor
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[h-cost] Re: Detroit suggestions (was NYC recommendations )

[Mary]

I'm glad this subject came up and *thanks* to all for the recommendations.  I'm 
also going to NYC in July and I'm determined to get to the fabric stores this 
time!  I went 2x last summer and never did get to indulge in my addiction!! LOL
 
 I will also be going to Detroit for a few days.  I'll be close to the DIA, 
although I think I read that they are remodeling (or something) and many 
exhibits will be closed.  Any other suggestions of sights to see (doesn't have 
to be costume related!) close to the downtown area?  I don't know much about 
Detroit -- and I won't have a car for long distance trips.
 
 Thanks!
 ~mary

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:From: Hope Greenberg 
Subject: [h-cost] NYC recommendations

Speaking of NYC: I'll be heading down there this summer and (obviously!) 
need to visit some fabric stores. I used to cruise around Orchard St. 
but that was many years ago. This time through I'll have my daughter in 
tow and have promised her that we won't spend too much time fabric shopping.

So, long-winded way of asking: can anyone recommend one or two SPECIFIC 
stores ( or even a specific block) for:
  - good quality lightweight linen
  - silks (not dupioni, which is easy enough to find elsewhere) but 
especially taffetas or heavier silks suitable for 18th-19th cent
  - fine lawns, voiles or cottons suitable for early 19th cent.

And, of course, all at super discounts!!

Thanks.

- Hope





«:*´`´`*:»§«.»§«:*´`´`*:».«:*´`´`*:»§«.»§«:*´`´`*:»

"But  if by 'Liberal' they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone 
who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the 
welfare  of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their 
jobs, their  civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we 
can break  through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies 
abroad, if  that is what they mean by 'Liberal', then I'm proud to say I'm a 
'Liberal'."  
  ~ John F. Kennedy, 14 Sept 1960
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[h-cost] silver spangeled suit

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi.
Seems to me i can already say, its impossible for me to make nice even 
flower spangels. I give up! I must be satisfied with the filligree flowers.

I uploaded pictures of this projekt, if you would like to se.
I would like your oppinion about these flowers, what do you think are they 
two much?

The flowers on the tsars suit, are much more simple.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/cel.htm

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 



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Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?

[Cin]

On 6/23/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In recreating materials found in 18th century embroidery, i thoaght i might
could use this for shaped spangels or Paillons as they were called. These
were cut from silver plates, and often vernished in different shining
collours. I would like to try it. Does any of you know this material? Is it
hard to cut out, can you use an ordinary scissors? I am in need of some cut
like a flower with 5 leaves.


Bjarne,
Paillettes, bezants, there's lots of names for those things. To make
your own, I would use jewelers shears. Probably the handheld snips are
enough for your soft thin silver sheets.  They're like tin-snips, but
small size for detail work.  Short blades so you dont have to force
the cut & miss your aim.
http://www.contenti.com/products/shears.html
http://www.contenti.com/products/shears/410-909.html
Here's a picture. I've never purchased from this dealer. It's just the
clearest image I cound quickly. Click the enlarge bttn to see the
curved point snips that would be nice for your leaves.


Also how would you make the holes for sewing?
I am making silver embroidery, but i am not sattisfied with those flowers i
use as a substitute for Paillons, they are two dimentional, should be more
flat.
Greatly apreciate if any of you have tryed it!


For piercing, I'd use a tiny center punch & small hammer. Place the
silver sheet on a wood block, of course, so as not to destroy your
dining room table.  After you make the hole, I'd run the tiniest
rat-tail file in the hole to smooth the edges. Otherwise the rough
hole might cut your thread.  Again, these are common jewelers tools.
Small punch:
http://www.contenti.com/products/punches-stamps/380-845.html
This site calls rat-tail file a needle file instead:
http://www.contenti.com/products/files/231-435-1_0.html

All I ever want is pictures of your work... this latest project sounds
delicious!
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [h-cost] silver spangeled suit

[Joan Jurancich]

At 09:06 AM 6/23/2006, you wrote:

Hi.
Seems to me i can already say, its impossible for me to make nice 
even flower spangels. I give up! I must be satisfied with the 
filligree flowers.

I uploaded pictures of this projekt, if you would like to se.
I would like your oppinion about these flowers, what do you think 
are they two much?

The flowers on the tsars suit, are much more simple.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/cel.htm

Bjarne


I see what you mean about the flowers, which are very pretty, but not 
quite what you were looking for.  My biggest problem would be 
catching them on everything.


Since you have not been able to find flat flowers, have you 
considered using two sizes of spangles, a larger one for the center 
and then the smaller ones as petals?  If you sew the smaller ones 
first in a circle, and then put the larger one in the center 
partially covering the smaller ones, so they look more like petals, 
do you think that would work?



Joan Jurancich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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[h-cost] Re: Detroit suggestions

[Agnes Gawne]

You should definitely go to the Detroit Institute of Arts to see the entire
room covered in Diego Rivera Frescos.  It represents "Detroit Industry" in
the 1930s.  Plan on sitting in this courtyard (roof was added later) to see
the four walls.  If you give yourself enough time you can see the entire
process of automobile manufacture.  It is really an impressive work of art,
although it doesn't have too much fashion.

There are also some great paintings in the museum and even a Mummy in the
antiquities section but the Frescos were the highlight when I visited.

I don't know of any fabric stores there in Detroit or the environs.

> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [h-cost] Re: Detroit suggestions (was NYC recommendations )
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I'm glad this subject came up and *thanks* to all for the recommendations.
I'm also going to NYC in July and I'm determined to get to the fabric stores
this time!  I went 2x last summer and never did get to indulge in my
addiction!! LOL
>
>  I will also be going to Detroit for a few days.  I'll be close to the
DIA, although I think I read that they are remodeling (or something) and
many exhibits will be closed.  Any other suggestions of sights to see
(doesn't have to be costume related!) close to the downtown area?  I don't
know much about Detroit -- and I won't have a car for long distance trips.
>
>  Thanks!
>  ~mary

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[h-cost] Re: Allegory of Colour

[Amy Butler Greenfield]

> Can anyone tell me more about this?


"The allegory of colour, which already at the end
of the thirteenth century showed slight signs of
development, had now become a language
comprehensible to nearly everyone, and the
full-fledged dandy had now the means of
proclaiming to the world his amorous adventures by
the scale of colours displayed in his dress."


Linda, I looked into this question of "color coding" when I was working on 
my book about the history of the color red.  There was indeed a language of 
color at work at the time, and you can find Renaissance books and other 
documents that spell out the meaning of different colors.  One of the most 
famous and influential is Sicile's Le Blason des couleurs, written in the 
15th century (but more easily available in a French reprint from 1860).


What I'd argue with, though, is the idea that the language was 
"comprehensible to nearly everyone."  Often the specific meaning of a color 
depended on which text you consulted.  Red was actually one of the more 
consistent colors, tending to signify ideas related to fire and boldness, 
but even so its meaning to one author might be courage and to another, 
anger.  And sometimes the meanings of a color diverged much more widely.


The Elizabethan lexicons are the most fun to read, in part because they are 
specific to the point of absurdity.  A good source on this is Jane 
Ashelford, Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I (London, 1988).  For a more 
general look at the question of color and meaning in clothing and painting 
and heraldry, you might also want to turn to John Gage's Color and Culture, 
or to the various works of Michel Pastoreau (though I should add the caveat 
that Pastoreau's evidence is not always what it should be).


Enjoy!

Amy G.

Amy Butler Greenfield
www.amybutlergreenfield.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [h-cost] Re: Allegory of Colour

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 6/23/2006 1:14:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

and  the
> full-fledged dandy had now the means of
> proclaiming to the  world his amorous adventures by
> the scale of colours displayed in his  dress."



**
 
 
It's the period "hanky code" !
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Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?

[Chris Laning]

On Jun 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> In recreating materials found in 18th century embroidery, i thoaght i 
> might could use this for shaped spangels or Paillons as they were 
> called. These were cut from silver plates, and often vernished in 
> different shining collours. I would like to try it. Does any of you 
> know this material? Is it hard to cut out, can you use an ordinary 
> scissors? I am in need of some cut like a flower with 5 leaves.
> Also how would you make the holes for sewing?

Hi Bjarne --

Yes, I'm on this list, and here's the information on my experiments making 
paillettes or bezants:

A short report and a couple of photos of my first efforts (and a very nice 
medieval original!):
http://claning.home.igc.org/bezants/bezants.htm

Here are the articles I wrote for our local Needleworkers' Guild newsletter:
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/stars_spangles_studs.html
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/make_bezants.html
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/bezants_decorating.html

I am going to be teaching two classes on making bezants in July (sorry, Bjarne, 
they're in California! :) so I've been looking for a less expensive source of 
metal. Both of the Internet addresses in the "Make your own Bezants" article 
seem to have what I need, in both gold (brass) color and silver (aluminum) 
color. Of course they are both in the USA, but perhaps you can print out the 
information and look for other places that have the same thing. This stuff is 
really easy to use -- you can cut it with ordinary scissors and make holes with 
an ordinary large sewing needle.

Good luck!


0  Chris Laning
|  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
+  Davis, California
http://paternoster-row.org  -  http://paternosters.blogspot.com

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Allegory of Colour

[Robin Netherton]

Linda cited this quote:

> > "The allegory of colour, which already at the end
> > of the thirteenth century showed slight signs of
> > development, had now become a language
> > comprehensible to nearly everyone, and the
> > full-fledged dandy had now the means of
> > proclaiming to the world his amorous adventures by
> > the scale of colours displayed in his dress.

Amy commented:

> What I'd argue with, though, is the idea that the language was
> "comprehensible to nearly everyone."  Often the specific meaning of a
> color depended on which text you consulted.

I also find the quoted statement highly suspicious. Certainly artists and
poets used color symbolism to telegraph the nature of various characters,
and ceremonial clothing (e.g. ecclesiastical vestments and dress for
knightings, coronations, etc.) used specific colors for symbolic purposes.
But whether this translated into secular clothing is problematic. It is
quite possible that in a few rarified circles, perhaps even within
specific courts, that there was such a "code," but it would likely have
changed from place to place and period to period.

Also, given that this author is discussing the 14th century, it's worth
remembering that most people had highly limited wardrobes -- even wealthy
nobles may have had only three or four gowns, and many people had only one
or two. Clothes were "durable goods" -- that is, buying a new set of
clothing was like buying a refrigerator or car today. So for anyone but
the very wealthiest, the ability to change one's gown color to declare
one's amorous adventures was unlikely.

I'm not sure what the author is thinking of regarding the "end of the
thirteenth century," but I seem to recall that at least one of the 12th
century manuals on courtly love (perhaps the one by Andreas Cappelanus)
dictated what colors suitors were supposed to wear to indicate the stage
they'd reached in negotiations with their prospective lovers. Whether
anyone outside of fictional romances and Eleanor of Acquitaine's court
actually did this is an open question. There's a wealth of literature on
the courtly love phenomenon, so I'm sure someone has already investigated
that. I'd start with Jane Burns' "Courtly Love Undressed" for some
insight; it focuses on literature, but it might contain some nuggets about
real-life clothing, or some references to other studies. (I've only
glanced at it myself.)
 
It's worth remembering that the 18th and 19th century English (and maybe
other Europeans?) were very fond of systems such as the "language of
flowers" and the "language of fans," and many authors (both historians and
literary writers) of those centuries imbued medieval people with all sorts
of fancy manners and mannerisms that struck them as suitably romantic.
These authors would not hesitate to pick up on a fancy such as the courtly
love color rules, or the Elizabethan lexicons that Amy mentions, and
declare that these rules were in force across a broad range of social
classes, regions, and centuries. Such non-facts would then be repeated in
book after book over many decades. Your author, writing in 1926, was very
likely drawing on such unreliable sources. (Costume books of this period
are notoriously derivative of Victorian pseudo-scholarship.)

--Robin




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[h-cost] bezants

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi Chris,
Did you make that flower with 5 leaves on the bottom photograph of this 
site:

http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/make_bezants.html
Is it possible to cut out the outer layer of the foil, so that you only get 
the flower?

Is there a chance i could buy such a stamp from you?
I think i could use that on the steel foil i baught today.
What i like is the shape, and the 5 flower leaves, matches very nice to the 
shape i am after.

The steel foil is the same "silver" colour as my spangels.

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 



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RE: [h-cost] bezants

[Betsy Marshall]

Try here- there are a couple of cincfoils (spelling?)...also some
quatrefoils. HTH Betsy

http://www.tandyleather.com/products.asp?dept=410

I'd be happy to handle the purchase and shipping for you...
Tandy HQ used to be very near here till Leather factory bought them out.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 1:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [h-cost] bezants

Hi Chris,
Did you make that flower with 5 leaves on the bottom photograph of this 
site:
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/make_bezants.html
Is it possible to cut out the outer layer of the foil, so that you only get 
the flower?
Is there a chance i could buy such a stamp from you?
I think i could use that on the steel foil i baught today.
What i like is the shape, and the 5 flower leaves, matches very nice to the 
shape i am after.
The steel foil is the same "silver" colour as my spangels.

Bjarne






Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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[h-cost] "Link" costume (sorta historical-ish)

[Susan B. Farmer]

My son wants the green tunic that the character Link wears in the
"Legends of Zelda" video games.  He knows it's not authentic, but it's
*fun*

Has anybody seen anything about it on the net?  I've googled to no avail
-- I'm having minimal luck even trying to find a good picture of the
dang thing!

Thanks,
susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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RE: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

Try tracing the shape with a ballpoint pen. Press hard, while working on a
padded surface. Then cut on the lines. You can also color the metal, my kids
use permanent markers, gives a nice translucent, jewel-like look.
Sharon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 6:48 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?


Hi Heather,
Thanks for your valuable informations. I went to a craftstore, after work 
today, and found stainless steel plates. They are just the thickness i want.

I just cut out a flower with my scissors, worked ok, but it is a little 
difficult. Then i hammered holes with a nail and hammer, worked fine two.
Its very difficult to draw the shape to the steel because it goes away when 
i touch with my fingers, but i thoaght about tracing the flower to painting 
tape, wich i then will take over the steel, and then cut out. Then remove 
the tape after.
I can imagine it is better to stamp out the shapes, but i want a particular 
shape, because i want the same as an embroidered suit has, guess my skills 
will improve with the numbers i make.
Thanks a lot for your help Heather...

Bjarne


- Original Message - 
From: "heather jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?


> On Jun 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> In recreating materials found in 18th century embroidery, i thoaght i
>> might could use this for shaped spangels or Paillons as they were called.

>> These were cut from silver plates, and often vernished in different 
>> shining collours. I would like to try it. Does any of you know this 
>> material? Is it hard to cut out, can you use an ordinary scissors? I am 
>> in need of some cut like a flower with 5 leaves.
>> Also how would you make the holes for sewing?
>> I am making silver embroidery, but i am not sattisfied with those flowers

>> i use as a substitute for Paillons, they are two dimentional, should be 
>> more flat.
>> Greatly apreciate if any of you have tryed it!
>>
>
> I don't remember if my friend Chris is on this list -- she would give 
> a
> better answer than me on her experiments with these.  She has been having 
> some success making paillons (or "bezants" under one of the medieval 
> names) out of thin metal sheets sold for craft purposes.  To make the 
> shape, she uses stamps sold for stamping leather, which come in a lot of 
> the same types of shapes that were used historically for these.  You place

> the metal sheet on a surface that is stiff but will "give" a little.  A 
> thick piece of leather works very well.  Then stamp the shapes using the 
> stamps and a hammer.  After that you can cut them out of the sheet using 
> ordinary scissors (but don't use scissors you ever plan to use for fabric 
> again!) and punch holes for sewing using a heavy needle or a small awl, 
> again using the leather as a backing.  It seems to work best if you stamp 
> all the shapes on the metal sheet first and then cut them all out at the 
> same time.  Chris has been working mostly with brass but I think the same 
> technique would work with silver (if you want to spend the money!) or with

> silver-plated brass or copper.
>
> Heather
> --
> !! Computer crash lost recent e-mail -- please contact if I owe you mail 
> !!
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> heatherrosejones.com
> lj:hrj
>
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[h-cost] Doublet closure

[REBECCA BURCH]

I need to pick your brains again.  

I am coming down the homestretch on the garb for my
son. (Good thing, dress rehearsal is 7/1!!!) The slops
and doublet are done except for tacking the lining in
the doublet and although I like the over all look, I
don't like the way the front closure looks.  I had
planned to use hook/eye, but now I think the front
looks too bland.

It is too late to sew loops into the front seam for
buttons and I have braid trim running along both
sides, so no place for lacing holes.

If I had my son make some monkey fist knots out of
metalic gold cord and then did a froggy loop kind of
thing over the braid, would that be appropriate?

Any other ideas or notions?

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
Duncan Falls, Ohio, USA
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RE: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

Dear Chris.
In Redwood City, there is a place called Allen Steel. It has tons of metal
stuff, from and old submarine (small sized) to rolls of metals, some very
thin. Inexpensive, too. 650-369-2526. I'd be happy to check it out for you
if you let me know what you're interested in.
Sharon (from the St. George group)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Laning
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 10:46 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] silver foil tape for Paillons?


On Jun 22, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

> In recreating materials found in 18th century embroidery, i thoaght i
> might could use this for shaped spangels or Paillons as they were 
> called. These were cut from silver plates, and often vernished in 
> different shining collours. I would like to try it. Does any of you 
> know this material? Is it hard to cut out, can you use an ordinary 
> scissors? I am in need of some cut like a flower with 5 leaves.
> Also how would you make the holes for sewing?

Hi Bjarne --

Yes, I'm on this list, and here's the information on my experiments making
paillettes or bezants:

A short report and a couple of photos of my first efforts (and a very nice
medieval original!): http://claning.home.igc.org/bezants/bezants.htm

Here are the articles I wrote for our local Needleworkers' Guild newsletter:
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/stars_spangles_studs.html
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/make_bezants.html
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/bezants_decorating.html

I am going to be teaching two classes on making bezants in July (sorry,
Bjarne, they're in California! :) so I've been looking for a less expensive
source of metal. Both of the Internet addresses in the "Make your own
Bezants" article seem to have what I need, in both gold (brass) color and
silver (aluminum) color. Of course they are both in the USA, but perhaps you
can print out the information and look for other places that have the same
thing. This stuff is really easy to use -- you can cut it with ordinary
scissors and make holes with an ordinary large sewing needle.

Good luck!


0  Chris Laning
|  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
+  Davis, California
http://paternoster-row.org  -  http://paternosters.blogspot.com

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Re: [h-cost] "Link" costume (sorta historical-ish)

[lists]

Just goes to show how old I am...when I saw this title I was thinking a
groovy Afro and bellbottoms.

Margo

- Original Message -
From: "Susan B. Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Historical Costume'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 5:37 PM
Subject: [h-cost] "Link" costume (sorta historical-ish)


> My son wants the green tunic that the character Link wears in the
> "Legends of Zelda" video games.  He knows it's not authentic, but it's
> *fun*
>
> Has anybody seen anything about it on the net?  I've googled to no avail
> -- I'm having minimal luck even trying to find a good picture of the
> dang thing!
>
> Thanks,
> susan
> -
> Susan Farmer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> University of Tennessee
> Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
>
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RE: [h-cost] Doublet closure

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

Sew metal/plastic circles onto the inside, then lace up.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of REBECCA BURCH
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 5:53 PM
To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] Doublet closure


I need to pick your brains again.  

I am coming down the homestretch on the garb for my
son. (Good thing, dress rehearsal is 7/1!!!) The slops
and doublet are done except for tacking the lining in
the doublet and although I like the over all look, I
don't like the way the front closure looks.  I had
planned to use hook/eye, but now I think the front
looks too bland.

It is too late to sew loops into the front seam for
buttons and I have braid trim running along both
sides, so no place for lacing holes.

If I had my son make some monkey fist knots out of
metalic gold cord and then did a froggy loop kind of
thing over the braid, would that be appropriate?

Any other ideas or notions?

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
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Re: [h-cost] Doublet closure

[Joan Jurancich]

At 05:52 PM 6/23/2006, you wrote:

I need to pick your brains again.

I am coming down the homestretch on the garb for my
son. (Good thing, dress rehearsal is 7/1!!!) The slops
and doublet are done except for tacking the lining in
the doublet and although I like the over all look, I
don't like the way the front closure looks.  I had
planned to use hook/eye, but now I think the front
looks too bland.

It is too late to sew loops into the front seam for
buttons and I have braid trim running along both
sides, so no place for lacing holes.

If I had my son make some monkey fist knots out of
metalic gold cord and then did a froggy loop kind of
thing over the braid, would that be appropriate?

Any other ideas or notions?

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
Duncan Falls, Ohio, USA


You can do what I did for my doublet gown, use buttons as decoration 
and use hooks and eyes to close it.  I have buttons down each side of 
the center front and on the cuff.  None of them are functional.  I 
found some 3/8-inch ball buttons that have a molded woven pattern 
rather like a monkey fist knot.  I used gold; they are also available 
in silver.  Just found a card of gold ones:  JHB International, style 
1106; they were 3 per card for $2.00.  The SKU on the back is 38562 
93244. The back of the card says that they are washable and dry 
cleanable. I cleaned out my local Joann's and had to special order 
some when the gown was made; now, every time I'm in there I look and 
see if there are any and clean them out again :-D (I don't think they 
carry more than 4 or 5 cards of them at any one time).  That way I 
will always have a supply.


You can think of decorative buttons as little jewels to be sewn on.


Joan Jurancich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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Re: [h-cost] "Link" costume (sorta historical-ish)

[Marie Schnoor]

Hi Susan! I found that for anime-related costumes, it helps to search 
using the term cosplay, which means, obviously, costume-play.


Here's what I found for you:

http://www.thelostwoods.net/pikminlink.html
http://aanime.free.fr/Epita2005/Neko7-Epita2005N7-197.JPG
http://www.northcastle.co.uk/guild/art/noman/Lamellar_Photo.jpg

Three interpretations of the costume.

The actual character - http://bishounen.info/link/link01.jpg

A good source for elf ears - http://www.hightowercrafts.com/page33.html

Hope this helps! :)

Marie


My son wants the green tunic that the character Link wears in the
"Legends of Zelda" video games.  He knows it's not authentic, but it's
*fun*

Has anybody seen anything about it on the net?  I've googled to no avail
-- I'm having minimal luck even trying to find a good picture of the
dang thing!

Thanks,
susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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Re: [h-cost] "Link" costume (sorta historical-ish)

[Susan B. Farmer]

Quoting Marie Schnoor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hi Susan! I found that for anime-related costumes, it helps to search 
using the term cosplay, which means, obviously, costume-play.


*giggle*  learned a new word today!  :-)



Here's what I found for you:

http://www.thelostwoods.net/pikminlink.html
http://aanime.free.fr/Epita2005/Neko7-Epita2005N7-197.JPG
http://www.northcastle.co.uk/guild/art/noman/Lamellar_Photo.jpg


Thanks!  I'll spend some time with those.



Three interpretations of the costume.

The actual character - http://bishounen.info/link/link01.jpg


Yeah -- I keep hoping I can find a larger one.



A good source for elf ears - http://www.hightowercrafts.com/page33.html


I don't know that he wants the ears -- just the tunic!



Hope this helps! :)


Sure does.  Thanks!

Susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] "Link" costume (sorta historical-ish)

[HELEN PINTO]

Susan wrote:

My son wants the green tunic that the character Link wears in the
"Legends of Zelda" video games.  He knows it's not authentic, but it's
*fun*
Has anybody seen anything about it on the net?  I've googled to no avail
-- I'm having minimal luck even trying to find a good picture of the
dang thing!



Try an image search at altavista ( www.altavista.com ).  Click on "Image" in 
the tool bar, then search on "link +zelda", and you will get over 10 pages 
of images, some full-length, and some even of people in costume as Link.

Good luck,
 -Helen/Aidan 



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Re: [h-cost] Doublet closure

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 6/23/2006 9:12:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

You can  do what I did for my doublet gown, use buttons as decoration 
and use hooks  and eyes to close it. 


*
 
That was my idea too. I'm sure they did this in the period as well. A lot  of 
buttons close together looks good but can start to get expensive. I have a  
doublet with plastic buttons [that really button] that look like fancy 3-D  
carved bone but cost very little so the 17 down the front wasn't that 
expensive.  
I also made a doublet with a gazillion buttons down the front, so close they  
were touching, but the real closure was hooks and eyes. And they were large  
round beads not "real" buttons. You might see what's in the beading section of 
 your local craft shop. I also saw a designer when I was in collage unstring 
and  use some fancy beads from some costume jewelry she got at a department 
store.  Looked great!
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[h-cost] help - velveteen colour running

[A & J Garden]

I need to fix a red cloak that keeps rubbing off its colour all over the 
linen shirt. It has red velveteen inside and black velveteen outside and 
is finished, ready to wear. It was pre-washed before being made.

Any help would be appreciated, Aylwen
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[h-cost] RE: Re: 1844 Corset Again-Busk Questions

[sunshine_buchler]

 

> Are you talking about a modern spoon busk? I have heard they 
> aren't like the
> actual spoon busks of the era. In fact most busks* were 
> curved down the
> front (spoon or regular) before the straight busk came in in 
> the 1890s,
> whereas now all busks are straight for recreations.

Yes, it was a modern spoon busk, but it is curved both into the spoon shape to 
the sides and curved in so it cups my tummy. It appeared to me a very 
reasonable reproduction. I bought it ~8 years ago, though, so it may be 
different from what's currently on the market.

> I have handled two modern made busks though, from different 
> companies and
> one was very rigid, I would use that one in an 1890s or later 
> corset. The
> other was rather flexible, and I would use that in an earlier 
> simply because
> the flexibility is going to help get that front curve. Let's 
> face it, too
> many modern recreations have a very flat front. I got around 
> it by using
> metal strapping instead of a bought busk and was able to put 
> a bend at the
> waist. It makes a huge difference and creates a really good 
> hourglass shape.
> This was the 1880s corset from C&C.

I've actually never had trouble getting the bend at the waist; but then I'm 
naturally hour-glass shaped, squish well, and like reasonably tight lacing :-) 
The only corset I have that doesn't have a waist curve in the busk after 
wearing it a few times is my regency corset, with it's thick wooden busk.
-sunny

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Re: [h-cost] silver spangeled suit

[Lalah]

For what it's worth, my opinion is they flowers look terrific.  But then, all 
of your work is always terrific.

Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:
Subject: [h-cost] silver spangeled suit
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 18:06:32 +0200

Hi.
Seems to me i can already say, its impossible for me to make nice even 
flower spangels. I give up! I must be satisfied with the filligree flowers.
I uploaded pictures of this projekt, if you would like to se.
I would like your oppinion about these flowers, what do you think are they 
two much?
The flowers on the tsars suit, are much more simple.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/cel.htm

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
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Re: [h-cost] bezants

[Chris Laning]

Bjarne wrote:
>Did you make that flower with 5 leaves on the bottom photograph of this 
>site:
>http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/make_bezants.html

Yes, I did.

>Is it possible to cut out the outer layer of the foil, so that you only get 
>the flower?

Yes, with patience and a pair of sharp scissors. Of course, you will need to 
use a pair of scissors that you do not want to use for cutting cloth after you 
use them on the metal :)

>Is there a chance i could buy such a stamp from you?
>I think i could use that on the steel foil i baught today.
>What i like is the shape, and the 5 flower leaves, matches very nice to the 
>shape i am after.

I am not completely sure whether this stamp will work well on steel. It is made 
of metal, but it is designed for stamping leather, and will wear out more 
quickly if it is used on metal. I have had good results using it on brass, 
however. If your steel is as soft as my 36-gauge (0.13 mm) sheet brass, it 
should be fine.

You can buy this stamp (and many others) from Tandy Leather at:
http://www.tandyleather.com/products.asp?dept=410

I don't know whether they will ship things to people outside the USA, but I 
expect so. If you have problems ordering from them, let me know off-list and 
I'll arrange something.


0  Chris Laning
|  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
+  Davis, California
http://paternoster-row.org  -  http://paternosters.blogspot.com

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[h-cost] RE: Re: 1844 Corset Again-Busk Questions

[sunshine_buchler]

 
> I've seen modern "spoon" busks that are flat in profile, is that what
> you used? Or did you use a curved one like they sell at farthingales?
> http://www.farthingales.on.ca/busks.php I've never tried using a spoon
> busk myself but have been toying with the idea, so hearing about other
> people's experiences is valuable. :)


The Farthingales busk is exactly the one I used -- that's where I bought it 
from.
-sunny


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Re: [h-cost] silver spangeled suit

[HELEN PINTO]

Wow.  Just wow.  I can't wait to see the pictures of the finished suit.
From what I can see on my monitor, your flowers look like the tsar's.  As 
for too much, I don't think so- it actually seems kind of subtle and 
refined.  Just beautiful.

Thanks for sharing the pictures and go enjoy that weekend.
   -Helen/Aidan 



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Re: [h-cost] "Link" costume (sorta historical-ish)

[Susan B. Farmer]

Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Just goes to show how old I am...when I saw this title I was thinking a
groovy Afro and bellbottoms.


Silly Margo, that was Linc!  (no K ...)

There was a man on campus that I saw one day (within the last 6 months)
that had evidently been asleep for the last 25 years.  He had one of
the *biggest* Afro's that I have ever seen -- and his beard was "fro'd"
too.  This little bitty face in the midst of this *huge* 'fro! 
(Reminded me a lot of Big Hair -- you know, the little-bitty face, all

that hair look?

susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] Re: Allegory of Colour

[Sue Clemenger]

Hanky code?
--Sue, obviously uniformed about finer sartorial points ;o)

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Allegory of Colour


> 
> In a message dated 6/23/2006 1:14:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> and  the
> > full-fledged dandy had now the means of
> > proclaiming to the  world his amorous adventures by
> > the scale of colours displayed in his  dress."
> 
> 
> 
> **
>  
>  
> It's the period "hanky code" !
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[h-cost] Re: [30YWTavern]

[David S. Mallinak]

art-n-janet wrote:



From: "art-n-janet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:17:44 -0400
Subject: [30YWTavern] 
I have been asked for a head count for this weekend's event 


at the Colonial Plantation, as the site is providing lunch both days.  


If anyone is attending and hasn't let us know, please do so ASAP so I can 



give an accurate number of attendees to the site administrator.



There is an event this weekend?

The last 30YWTavern message is dated June 09

Details, details??


Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak

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RE: [h-cost] silver spangeled suit

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

What beautiful work! I am in awe. If the silver flowers are too 3-D for you,
can you gently hammer them, from the back, to flatten them? Personally, I
like them the way they are.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 9:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [h-cost] silver spangeled suit


Hi.
Seems to me i can already say, its impossible for me to make nice even 
flower spangels. I give up! I must be satisfied with the filligree flowers.
I uploaded pictures of this projekt, if you would like to se. I would like
your oppinion about these flowers, what do you think are they 
two much?
The flowers on the tsars suit, are much more simple.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/cel.htm

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 


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[h-cost] RE: bezants

[Stellagrace75]

 
In a message dated 6/23/2006 8:56:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
Hi!
Out of lurkdom to make a suggestion that might work for bezants - if  you 
wanted actual silver for an extra special application - and i don't  think it 
would be too cost prohibitive.  I havnt tried making  bezants but all this 
discussion makes me want to.  I've been playing  with precious metal clay for a 
few 
years - making a few pieces of  jewelery.  check out 
_http://www.pmcsupply.com/_ (http://www.pmcsupply.com/)  or 
_http://www.artclayworld.com/_ 
(http://www.artclayworld.com/)  it  comes in a lot of different forms - one of 
which being 
sheet form that actually  handles a lot like paper
 
firing is not hard at all - it can be done with an inexpensive butane torch  
- it is clay impregnated with silver (or gold if you want to go totally nuts)  
the clay burns off when fired and leaves you with the silver
 
anyway - what i was thinking - you might be able to use the paper punches  
that are in the scrapbooking sections of craft stores - they come  in seemingly 
infinite shapes - i know you can also use rubber stamps,  or you could just 
cut the paper clay with scissors
 
just a suggestion
Marian
 
 


 
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[h-cost] Re: silver spangeled suit

[Pierre & Sandy Pettinger]

Bjarne,

I was just going to suggest the same thing - hammer them gently to 
flatten them.  Also, you mentioned gluing the glass beads - 
don't!  They will be popping out every time you bump into 
something.  I would suggest using clear monofilament thread to sew 
the beads on - it's very strong and will almost disappear against the 
bead.  In the U.S., it can be gotten at:



or:

http://tinyurl.com/qbhwr

It's at:  www.Nancysnotions.com and is called Wonder Thread.  It's a 
bit hard to work with when hand sewing, but sometimes nothing else will work.


I love your work - it's gorgeous!!

Sandy
At 07:53 PM 6/23/2006, you wrote:


Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:50:52 -0700
From: "Sharon at Collierfam.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [h-cost] silver spangeled suit

What beautiful work! I am in awe. If the silver flowers are too 3-D for you,
can you gently hammer them, from the back, to flatten them? Personally, I
like them the way they are.

Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews

Hi.
Seems to me i can already say, its impossible for me to make nice even
flower spangels. I give up! I must be satisfied with the filligree 
flowers.  I uploaded pictures of this projekt, if you would like to 
se. I would like your oppinion about these flowers, what do you 
think are they two much?

The flowers on the tsars suit, are much more simple.
http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/cel.htm

Bjarne


"Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly --
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro'hm
"The Illusion of Historical Fact"
 -- C.Y. 4971

Andromeda  



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Re: [h-cost] help - velveteen colour running

[Diana Habra]

> I need to fix a red cloak that keeps rubbing off its colour all over the
> linen shirt. It has red velveteen inside and black velveteen outside and
> is finished, ready to wear. It was pre-washed before being made.
> Any help would be appreciated, Aylwen

You can try a vinegar rinse in the wash machine (1 cup does the trick, I
think).  Vinegar will help set the dye.  But try a small area first to
make sure it doesn't do something funky to the color.

Good luck!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

"Become the change you want to see in the world."
--Ghandi

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