Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe
Is it only men's clothes? Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wanda Pease Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 8:31 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe Blink, Blink! Hmmm. I see I wasn't as plain about this book as I should have been if you aren't already familiar. This book was written by a tailor, Juan Alcega, who worked in the 1580's in Spain. He produced the Manual to help young tailor's with their art. If you are thinking full sized patterns of the present Butterick type (I think he invented the present type of patterns we buy) this isn't for you. These are the pattern pieces laid out on various period widths of fabric with the fairly confusing directions (nowhere near as bad as present instructions, which I can't follow to save my life :-). Definitely good to have help understanding. Juan Alcega was a real tailor who lived and worked in Spain. The pattern's I have blown up to size for my costuming have worked perfectly, once I understood how they were put together. The ones in the actual book and it's translation/re-drawing by Mrs. Ruth Bean are to scale. This means I can decide that a barra is 36 (give or take a bit it was) and the Scholar Robe fits a man 5'10 perfectly. It also looks exactly like the paintings. A quick way of seeing what I'm talking about is to look at the Janet Arnold: the Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women: 1560-1620. In the first few pages you will see one of these patterns and the illustration of a man wearing that robe. The entire book is patterns of that type. Certainly you can make one of the Spanish middle class outer garments from these. They aren't court garments, nor are they underwear other than a farthingale and possibly a chemise (I have to look at my tattered copy of a the original I made so I could put markings on the patterns). No ruffs, no corsets. A tailor wouldn't be making these. Regina Romsey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sharon Collier Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:53 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe Is this 16th century? If so, I'd love to have one. Sharon Collier ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe
Hi there, No it isn't only men's clothing. It also includes women's garments and other types of barding; of course the horse barding came before women's clothing in the book. Wonder if that is a comment of the times on how we as ladies rated. (he he). Etiennette -- Original message -- From: Sharon Collier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is it only men's clothes? Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wanda Pease Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 8:31 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe Blink, Blink! Hmmm. I see I wasn't as plain about this book as I should have been if you aren't already familiar. This book was written by a tailor, Juan Alcega, who worked in the 1580's in Spain. He produced the Manual to help young tailor's with their art. If you are thinking full sized patterns of the present Butterick type (I think he invented the present type of patterns we buy) this isn't for you. These are the pattern pieces laid out on various period widths of fabric with the fairly confusing directions (nowhere near as bad as present instructions, which I can't follow to save my life :-). Definitely good to have help understanding. Juan Alcega was a real tailor who lived and worked in Spain. The pattern's I have blown up to size for my costuming have worked perfectly, once I understood how they were put together. The ones in the actual book and it's translation/re-drawing by Mrs. Ruth Bean are to scale. This means I can decide that a barra is 36 (give or take a bit it was) and the Scholar Robe fits a man 5'10 perfectly. It also looks exactly like the paintings. A quick way of seeing what I'm talking about is to look at the Janet Arnold: the Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women: 1560-1620. In the first few pages you will see one of these patterns and the illustration of a man wearing that robe. The entire book is patterns of that type. Certainly you can make one of the Spanish middle class outer garments from these. They aren't court garments, nor are they underwear other than a farthingale and possibly a chemise (I have to look at my tattered copy of a the original I made so I could put markings on the patterns). No ruffs, no corsets. A tailor wouldn't be making these. Regina Romsey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sharon Collier Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:53 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe Is this 16th century? If so, I'd love to have one. Sharon Collier ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe
No, it has women's clothes as well. Sg From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:48:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe Is it only men's clothes? Sharon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Making History Hip
Saragrace Knauf wrote: I know this may start a firestorm, but I saw this and was wondering why it had taken so long for the media to pick up on this. Of course I know there are lots of opinions on how accurate any of it is with respect to costume, but I think it is kind of cool how the emphasis on making history more accessible through documentary, TV series and movies is making the sport of costuming so much more popular. http://tv.msn.com/tv/hiphistory?GT1=ENTERTAINMENT5 You might add the Highlander TV series. I know the production company made a DVD for schools that chronicled all of the Highlander flashbacks as an introduction different periods and societies. Your humble and obedient servant, David S Mallinak ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
I don't have the original post, but I thought the short skirt over long skirt thing seemed Spanish. So here's something I found that might be useful. It's from Weidnitz Trachtenbuch about 1530 or 1540. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2767477510025622007ZaBAUb MaggiRos --- Lynn Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have a picture of the entire effergy? I'm wondering if what looks like a short gown over a kirtle is really a fold of the kirtle? Lynn Cynthia Virtue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kimiko Small wrote: I have found the effigy monument that shows a short gown over very long kirtle from Dr. Jane Malcolm-Davies effigies web site. The view of her hem: The Elizabethan World is at http://elizabethan.org coming soon in paperback! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
Though I vaguely remember seeing some German prints and French manuscript illuminations with either the short over dress or the long peplum bodice (this is the first I remember seeing both on one figure), I wonder if the artists might have mistaken a tuck of fabric like it is here in the Lotto painting? http://www.abcgallery.com/L/lotto/lotto6.html for a long peplum. -Original Message- I don't have the original post, but I thought the short skirt over long skirt thing seemed Spanish. So here's something I found that might be useful. It's from Weidnitz Trachtenbuch about 1530 or 1540. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2767477510025622007ZaBAUb MaggiRos ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
The commentary in the Dover reprint I got this from says the whole upper section is a jacket, and it may be. A lot of German peasant women in the woodcuts are shown with jackets with a long peplum or skirting that is definitly not a tuck of the skirt. That this one has another colored band at the bottom looks to me like it's meant to be the bottom edge of something, not the middle. Plus it's so flat. It's hard to believe that anyone who has actually seen a woolen dress tucked up would mistake it for a flat frill or peplum. (Cranach gets it.) This lady isn't a peasant, but it could surely be a jacket. Click the B/W image next to it in the album for the back view. (Hey lady, turn around!) Here it is directly. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2710325920025622007dsYOiq Of course, they're all artist's impressions, not photographs. But this jacket does seem like the curiosity in the OP's picture. For more short gown (but not that short)over longer kirtle, there are these two http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2505459060025622007pIZwWA http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2824775790025622007jsyHRh MaggiRos --- otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though I vaguely remember seeing some German prints and French manuscript illuminations with either the short over dress or the long peplum bodice (this is the first I remember seeing both on one figure), I wonder if the artists might have mistaken a tuck of fabric like it is here in the Lotto painting? http://www.abcgallery.com/L/lotto/lotto6.html for a long peplum. -Original Message- I don't have the original post, but I thought the short skirt over long skirt thing seemed Spanish. So here's something I found that might be useful. It's from Weidnitz Trachtenbuch about 1530 or 1540. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2767477510025622007ZaBAUb MaggiRos ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume The Elizabethan World is at http://elizabethan.org coming soon in paperback! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
I found the original post. The effergy is from c1535 and is of Edith Pexall nee Brocas. This was noted by Dr. Jane Malcolm Davies. On first look I thought it might be a fold in the kirtle at least thats what it looked like to me. The kirtle looks almost to long almost as if it were more a nightgown(Chemise) and a kirtle over it? I was just wondering if kimiko or someone could give me more info on Edith Pexall also such as her status (Nobility?). I'm just very interested in this time period of history and its dress. Thanks, Lynn Ps How common was this in period? MaggiRos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't have the original post, but I thought the short skirt over long skirt thing seemed Spanish. So here's something I found that might be useful. It's from Weidnitz Trachtenbuch about 1530 or 1540. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2767477510025622007ZaBAUb MaggiRos --- Lynn Roth wrote: Do you have a picture of the entire effergy? I'm wondering if what looks like a short gown over a kirtle is really a fold of the kirtle? Lynn Cynthia Virtue wrote: Kimiko Small wrote: I have found the effigy monument that shows a short gown over very long kirtle from Dr. Jane Malcolm-Davies effigies web site. The view of her hem: The Elizabethan World is at http://elizabethan.org coming soon in paperback! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe
If you still have a copy, and it is a translation, I would love one. You can contact me off-list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kate -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wanda Pease Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 8:12 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe Re: looking for scan of Alcega Scholar robe Can I just add that anyone who doesn't have a copy of this marvellous book should really think about getting one as a standard reference if they work on the 16th century, much like Janet Arnold's. I've had my copy for about 8 years now, and it's one of the most useful books I've ever had ( After reading the information above I went to the David Brown site to order another softback. Sadly they came back haven't any more. I cried, I whined, I send pleas directly to Ian Stevens their friendly marketing director who just happened to be in England at the moment. He sent our into the dim reaches of Oxbow books warehouse and unearthed the last 5 copies they had. I say Had because I now have them. They are $70 each because David Brown charged $65 plus $5 shipping. If you want one I can let you have it for that plus the amount it will cost to media mail (or other, contact me) it to you. I'm also trying to get my hands on some others that aren't perfect, but can be made to have all the information. Now this is not an attempt to undercut either Oxbow, David Brown (my favorite form of Crack), or Mr. and Mrs. Bean. I desperately want this book back in print. The thing is that I believe that it would sell slowly but steadily in about 200 copies per year (or am I under/over estimating?). David Brown would be happy to handle the selling if it had the opportunity. Buying copies to the Editor/Translator/book publisher get money for more copies and Royalties for all their hard work is the only way to get this done. Anyway, if anyone wants a copy now, let me know and we can probably make a deal. Like Hilary, this is a book I wouldn't be without. The patterns are to scale and really work. It isn't a book for a new sewer. It may not even be a book for someone who hasn't worked with period style patterns before. Took me years to figure out what was going on with some of them, but then it's a Eureka! moment. Regina Romsey. P.S. If you live in England or a European country, you might try and contact Mrs. Bean directly. If they have more copies available themselves, I'm sure they would be happy to sell too! e: ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
On Mar 29, 2008, at 3:49 AM, Kimiko Small wrote: I have found the effigy monument that shows a short gown over very long kirtle from Dr. Jane Malcolm-Davies effigies web site. The woman: http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g173/sstormwatch/CostumeIdeas/? action=viewcurrent=95_main.jpg ( http://tinyurl.com/2kp5ay ) The view of her hem: http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g173/sstormwatch/CostumeIdeas/? action=viewcurrent=95_137_main.jpg ( http://tinyurl.com/2kwfxq ) There is an interesting little note that Jane provided with that image. The top layer (the gown) is shorter than the under layer (the kirtle). This was described as characteristic of Englishwomen's dress by the Venetian ambassador in 1554 (quoted in Carter, A [1984] “Mary Tudor’s Wardrobe” in Costume, 18, 20). This is a trifle misleading, I'm afraid. In “Mary Tudor’s Wardrobe,” Carter quotes Soranzo, the Venetian ambassador, as saying Queen Mary's garments are of two sorts; the one a gown such as men wear but fitting very close, with an underpetticoat which has a very long train; and this is her ordinary costume, being also that of the gentlewomen of England. The other garment is a gown and bodice, with wide hanging sleeves in the French fashion which she wears on state occasions. (p. 15) It is the first style that Malcolm-Davies is using as textual evidence for this shorter outer gown. But Carter presents a fairly detailed argument that this style is actually a loose gown over a trained kirtle. Her summary is Moreover, orders for French kirtles generally follow those for loose gowns, and it may be asserted that this is the combination inferred by Soranzo, with the kirtle train visible below the hem of the gown. (p. 19) It is implied here that Carter believes the loose gown on women to have been floor-length, but she states it earlier when discussing how a woman's loose gown differed from the gown such as men wear that Soranzo references. (p. 17) (There are of course shorter loose gowns on women later in the century, though the evidence for them is from France and Italy.) So using this reference as an argument that wearing a shorter fitted gown (like the one in this effigy or the other problematic examples we've seen) over a longer kirtle was a general fashion among Englishwomen at this time is a bit disingenuous. There is something of a disconnect between the idea of loose gown and the description of fitting very close, but there are some funeral brasses from the 1550s and later that show loose gowns with a girdle worn on top so that the fullness is held close to the body. If anyone has a copy of Laver's _Costume of the Western World: Early Tudor_, plate 42 is a good example from 1550. Page 96 of Ashelford's _Visual History of Costume: The Sixteenth Century_ has an almost identical look from 1578, but as Robin helpfully pointed out to me once, patterns for brasses were used long after the fashions they depicted went out of style. All that said, there do appear to be at least two English examples of a slightly shorter fitted gown over a longer kirtle that can't be explained via allegorical representation or sainthood without a bit of a stretch (the effigy and Mary Tudor's lady in waiting). Whatever it was, it doesn't seem to have been a general fashion. Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Making History Hip
Hi David! Do you remember who made that DVD with the Highlander Flashbacks? I teach fashion history and this would be SOO cool. Thanks for the help. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David S. Mallinak Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:46 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Making History Hip Saragrace Knauf wrote: I know this may start a firestorm, but I saw this and was wondering why it had taken so long for the media to pick up on this. Of course I know there are lots of opinions on how accurate any of it is with respect to costume, but I think it is kind of cool how the emphasis on making history more accessible through documentary, TV series and movies is making the sport of costuming so much more popular. http://tv.msn.com/tv/hiphistory?GT1=ENTERTAINMENT5 You might add the Highlander TV series. I know the production company made a DVD for schools that chronicled all of the Highlander flashbacks as an introduction different periods and societies. Your humble and obedient servant, David S Mallinak ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
Thank you MaggiRos, I really appreciate these images and where they came from. I am going to collect as many as I can find, and try to organize them to time and location, so I can try to see a pattern, if any. And the note that it is a jacket is similar to the thought that the saint was wearing something similar to a German man's skirted jacket. If there are more German styles like this, I will be raiding a friend's collection, as she focuses on German styles. Kimiko --- MaggiRos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The commentary in the Dover reprint I got this from says the whole upper section is a jacket, and it may be. A lot of German peasant women in the woodcuts are shown with jackets with a long peplum or skirting snip Click the B/W image next to it in the album for the back view. (Hey lady, turn around!) Here it is directly. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2710325920025622007dsYOiq Of course, they're all artist's impressions, not photographs. But this jacket does seem like the curiosity in the OP's picture. For more short gown (but not that short)over longer kirtle, there are these two http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2505459060025622007pIZwWA http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2824775790025622007jsyHRh MaggiRos Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text3.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
Hello Lynn, As far as I understand, smocks (aka chemises) were not as long as to the floor, but usually somewhere around the knee length, maybe to ankles. I am no expert on smocks, tho. Her status I think is that of gentlewoman, which may or may not be noble in birth, but of higher station than most of the people. However, the husband is not noted as being knight, but their son was a knight. She is noted as being the heir to a named estate, which might mean she was the daughter of a wealthy merchant (and sole surviving heir?) They were at least wealthy enough to purchase an effigy monument. It would be a guess, unless one wanted to hunt that particular family down (and Jane has listed the sources she used). As to how common this style was? Not very common I think, but that's why I am hunting them down to find out. It is not a style I've seen often in images, but then I've not paid direct attention, until recently. The problem with this time frame (roughly 1510-1540ish), is that individual people portraits, unless a group image of some sort, often are of a person from the waist up, so lower body details were not painted. Finding the exceptions can prove very helpful. If you haven't gotten it yet, may I suggest checking out the book called the Tudor Tailor, written by Dr. Jane Malcolm-Davies and Ninya Mikhaila. It will give you a good background of info, as well as some scaled patterns of the Tudor period. Kimiko --- Lynn Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I found the original post. The effergy is from c1535 and is of Edith Pexall nee Brocas. This was noted by Dr. Jane Malcolm Davies. On first look I thought it might be a fold in the kirtle at least thats what it looked like to me. The kirtle looks almost to long almost as if it were more a nightgown(Chemise) and a kirtle over it? I was just wondering if kimiko or someone could give me more info on Edith Pexall also such as her status (Nobility?). I'm just very interested in this time period of history and its dress. Thanks, Lynn Ps How common was this in period? OMG, Sweet deal for Yahoo! users/friends:Get A Month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. W00t http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text2.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early Tudor/medieval Fashion or Not?
Thank you Melanie for that clarification. I have the article in question, but it is in my sewing room pile of stuff (that I sooo need to clean up), so I hadn't been able to read it yet. Also, thanks for the other images to look for. I will hunt those down, as I know I have one book, and may have the other (or the library does). It may not be a general fashion, but it would be nice to know of alternate styles, if they were really done then, and not just from a few people's imaginations. Kimiko --- Melanie Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (quoted in Carter, A [1984] Mary Tudors Wardrobe in Costume, 18, 20). This is a trifle misleading, I'm afraid. In Mary Tudors Wardrobe, snip lots of great info and other stuff to check out, for length. All that said, there do appear to be at least two English examples of a slightly shorter fitted gown over a longer kirtle that can't be explained via allegorical representation or sainthood without a bit of a stretch (the effigy and Mary Tudor's lady in waiting). Whatever it was, it doesn't seem to have been a general fashion. Melanie Schuessler Special deal for Yahoo! users friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text3.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] John Adams HBO series
Hello, all! Has anyone been watching the HBO series, John Adams? What is your general impression of: Costumes - both the principal characters and the general populace/servants/etc.? Depiction of the general attitudes and society of the period? We've enjoyed it so far, and to our non-expert eye, the costumes and such look pretty good. It's obvious the women are wearing corsets, etc., and some of the costumes have been fabulous - esp. the one in tonight's episode that Abigail Adams wore to the opera - the robe a la francaise (I think I got the term correct, did I?) We did notice that they thanked the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation in the credits. Sandy (and Pierre) Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm The Illusion of Historical Fact -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
