[h-cost] German early Renn/Saxon gown

[Regina Voorhes]

I did one with the skirt on a separate waist band and sewn to the bodice
from side seam to side seam, around the back.  The plackard was entirely
separate, boned and decorated to simulate the front of the chemise showing
through the open front of the gown.  It worked, with the strategic addition
of a large hook on the center-bottom of the plackard and a heavy thread loop
on the waistband.  The best way I found to hide the skirt opening, was to
move the opening to the side-front, giving room to get into the skirt and
still manipulate the fronts of the bodice.

My second attempt, the best one, was all soft, and meant to be worn over a
corset.  The plackard is sewn in to the front of the bodice on one side.
The skirt is cartridged directly to the bodice from one side of the open
front, around the back and  right on to the plackard to the other side.  The
skirt opening extends from that  meeting point down into the skirt, and is
invisible.  There is a Cranach, I think, that shows something like it.  Was
a long time ago, I don't remember which precisely I used.

Regina in L.A.
Used to be German
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[h-cost] current clothing exhibition at the Chicago History Museum

[Rebecca Schmitt]

Thought this might be of interest to some - I'm trying to figure out how to
get there and see it!
 

Rebecca Schmitt
aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence, Bristol Renn Faire
*
 

 

http://www.threadsmagazine.com/item/7237/exhibition-chic-chicago-at-the-chic
ago-history-museum 
http://www.threadsmagazine.com/item/7237/exhi

 


lotsofteap...@charter.net sent this using ShareThis  .

  _  

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Re: [h-cost] What colors were used Charles du Blois Purpoint?

[Debloughcostumes]

 
The buttons at waist level are flat probably because some sort of belt was  
worn over it, as depicted in many illustrations of the period.  Not certain 
 about the top one - although it's been suggested that it was replaced at 
some  point in its life - possibly while still in the hands of its original  
owner.  Although something else may have been worn over the top.
 
It has nothing to do with armour - the de Blois 'pourpoint' is  not a 
military garment - it is a civilian doublet padded to exaggerate the  chest and 
hold the waistline in a "vice like grip".
 
If you don't have it, fashion in the age of the black prince has a section  
that explains it in full detail.
 
 
 
Debbie
 
 
 
 
 In a message dated 01/06/2009 19:01:15 GMT Standard Time,  
h-costume-requ...@indra.com writes:

I wasn't  very clear in my request.  I have the sewing pattern.  The 
pattern I  was refereeing to was the fabric pattern, the colors in the photos 
are 
better  than what I have.  But usually on something this old, the colors now 
are  not what they would have originally been.

As to the buttons, if they  were reversed, I might offer the idea that he 
might wear some sort of armor on  top of it - the flat buttons being more 
comfortable than the round...but I  have not a clue  otherwise.

Thanks,

Sg




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Re: [h-cost] What colors were used Charles du Blois Purpoint?

[Saragrace Knauf]

Thanks!

> From: alt...@alfalfapress.com
> To: h-cost...@indra.com; h-cost...@indra.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:08:51 -0500
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What colors were used  Charles du Blois Purpoint?
> 
> My notes are at home, but I seem to remember that the pourpoint was made of
> silk damask fabric. The woven pattern consists of a heraldic design with lions
> and eagles (?) in roundels. The color was either red with gold thread or gold
> with gold thread. I can check later today.
> 
> Althea
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 05:48:13 -0700, Saragrace Knauf wrote
> > I wasn't very clear in my request.  I have the sewing pattern.  The 
> > pattern I was refereeing to was the fabric pattern, the colors in 
> > the photos are better than what I have.  But usually on something 
> > this old, the colors now are not what they would have originally been.
> > 
> > As to the buttons, if they were reversed, I might offer the idea 
> > that he might wear some sort of armor on top of it - the flat 
> > buttons being more comfortable than the round...but I have not a 
> > clue otherwise.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Sg
> > 
> > > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:37:56 -0400
> > > From: ail...@neo.rr.com
> > > To: h-cost...@indra.com
> > > Subject: Re: [h-cost] What colors were used  Charles du Blois Purpoint?
> > > 
> > > The buttons down the front are mixed - the one at the very top is flat,
> the next bunch are balls as are the ones on the sleeves. The ones from about
> the waist to the bottom of the pourpoint are flat like the one at the top. I
> can't imagine why they're like that. 
> > > 
> > > Kate
> > >  otsisto  wrote: 
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/mkzpm9
> > > > 
> > > > http://gambesons.com/design
> > > > Interesting, this shows that the buttons down the front are not the same
> > > > shape as the ones on the sleeve.
> > > > 
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/mj4bws
> > > > this has a pattern.
> > > > 
> > > > De
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > Now that I have some really great close ups of the fabric, does anyone 
> > > > now
> > > > what color(s) it was supposed to be?
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > Sg
> > > > 
> > > > From: wickedf...@msn.com
> > > > To: h-cost...@indra.com
> > > > Subject: Really close up of Charles du Blois Purpoint?
> > > > Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:40:08 -0700
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I was asked today to make one of these purpoints - given the recent
> > > > discussion on reproduction prints, does anyone know of any "really up 
> > > > close"
> > > > photos of the "print" on the fabric of this garment?  It sure would be 
> > > > fun
> > > > to recreate it that way!
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > Sg
> > > > ___
> > > > h-costume mailing list
> > > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ___
> > > > h-costume mailing list
> > > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> Directory of Diverse Knowledge
> http://www.alfalfapress.com/sca
> 
> Althea Turner
> alt...@alfalfapress.com
> 
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[h-cost] Out of office Reply

[mmbennett]

I am currently hiding out with my husband in a little cabin in the woods.  I 
will be back in the office on Wednesday, June 3.  If you have an emergency, 
please call David Sam at 212.244.1505 or email him at d...@esta.org.
Thanks,
Meredith


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Re: [h-cost] What colors were used Charles du Blois Purpoint?

[otsisto]

The seconded site allows you to enlarge.
http://gambesons.com/design/aad
It appears to be cream base with gold pattern with a red outline.
The flat buttons are approx. at the level of a belt and possibly the neck
button is at a gorget level.

-Original Message-

I wasn't very clear in my request.  I have the sewing pattern.  The pattern
I was refereeing to was the fabric pattern, the colors in the photos are
better than what I have.  But usually on something this old, the colors now
are not what they would have originally been.

As to the buttons, if they were reversed, I might offer the idea that he
might wear some sort of armor on top of it - the flat buttons being more
comfortable than the round...but I have not a clue otherwise.

Thanks,

Sg




> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:37:56 -0400
> From: ail...@neo.rr.com
> To: h-cost...@indra.com
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What colors were used  Charles du Blois Purpoint?
>
> The buttons down the front are mixed - the one at the very top is flat,
the next bunch are balls as are the ones on the sleeves. The ones from about
the waist to the bottom of the pourpoint are flat like the one at the top. I
can't imagine why they're like that.
>
> Kate


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Re: [h-cost] German early Renaissance gowns

[otsisto]

You will find several variation of construction of this outfit. It is
refered to in German Recreatator circles as the Cranach gown because most of
Cranach's paintings have this style and the gown is refered to as the Saxon
Gown because the style is mostly seen in paintings associated with Saxony.

http://www.alyxxndon.com/Alyxx/SaxonDiary.htm

Portraits
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/1500.htm
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/1510.htm
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/1520.htm
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/1530.htm

I have seen a white "bib"/plastron(?) attached to the front section (side to
side) of the skirt leaving openings on the sides of the skirt to reach under
for a pouch. The bodice connected to the back section of the skirt acts like
a jacket and comes around and laces in the white "bib". The fancy, usually
embroidered band can be attached to the "bib" or can be a strip that is
attached to the jacket.

These are a few person's theories
http://tinyurl.com/n45u86
http://www.booksnthreads.com/Costumes/ren/german_ren.html
http://www.gildedgarb.com/german.htm
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/sca/1520.htm


-Original Message-
Despite looking at a lot of paintings, I am still puzzled about the waist
closure of early Renaissance gowns.  For example, here:
http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1525_2.shtml and detail here:
http://www.marquise.de/images/1500/1525_2d1.jpg

Usually the join between the opening of the bodice and the skirt waistband,
if there is one, is obscured by hands, an apron, a belt, folds of fabric,
etc.

So how does this dress close without there being a gap at the waist, either
horizontal or vertical?  Has anyone figured this out?

Thanks,
Joan
@


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Re: [h-cost] What colors were used Charles du Blois Purpoint?

[Althea Turner]

My notes are at home, but I seem to remember that the pourpoint was made of
silk damask fabric. The woven pattern consists of a heraldic design with lions
and eagles (?) in roundels. The color was either red with gold thread or gold
with gold thread. I can check later today.

Althea



On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 05:48:13 -0700, Saragrace Knauf wrote
> I wasn't very clear in my request.  I have the sewing pattern.  The 
> pattern I was refereeing to was the fabric pattern, the colors in 
> the photos are better than what I have.  But usually on something 
> this old, the colors now are not what they would have originally been.
> 
> As to the buttons, if they were reversed, I might offer the idea 
> that he might wear some sort of armor on top of it - the flat 
> buttons being more comfortable than the round...but I have not a 
> clue otherwise.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sg
> 
> > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:37:56 -0400
> > From: ail...@neo.rr.com
> > To: h-cost...@indra.com
> > Subject: Re: [h-cost] What colors were used  Charles du Blois Purpoint?
> > 
> > The buttons down the front are mixed - the one at the very top is flat,
the next bunch are balls as are the ones on the sleeves. The ones from about
the waist to the bottom of the pourpoint are flat like the one at the top. I
can't imagine why they're like that. 
> > 
> > Kate
> >  otsisto  wrote: 
> > > http://tinyurl.com/mkzpm9
> > > 
> > > http://gambesons.com/design
> > > Interesting, this shows that the buttons down the front are not the same
> > > shape as the ones on the sleeve.
> > > 
> > > http://tinyurl.com/mj4bws
> > > this has a pattern.
> > > 
> > > De
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Now that I have some really great close ups of the fabric, does anyone now
> > > what color(s) it was supposed to be?
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Sg
> > > 
> > > From: wickedf...@msn.com
> > > To: h-cost...@indra.com
> > > Subject: Really close up of Charles du Blois Purpoint?
> > > Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:40:08 -0700
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I was asked today to make one of these purpoints - given the recent
> > > discussion on reproduction prints, does anyone know of any "really up 
> > > close"
> > > photos of the "print" on the fabric of this garment?  It sure would be fun
> > > to recreate it that way!
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Sg
> > > ___
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > h-costume mailing list
> > > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > 
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



***
Directory of Diverse Knowledge
http://www.alfalfapress.com/sca

Althea Turner
alt...@alfalfapress.com

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Re: [h-cost] What colors were used Charles du Blois Purpoint?

[Marie Stewart]

I have always suspected that the button shape was related to the
weight distribution of the armour.

Bridgette
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Re: [h-cost] What colors were used Charles du Blois Purpoint?

[Saragrace Knauf]

I wasn't very clear in my request.  I have the sewing pattern.  The pattern I 
was refereeing to was the fabric pattern, the colors in the photos are better 
than what I have.  But usually on something this old, the colors now are not 
what they would have originally been.

As to the buttons, if they were reversed, I might offer the idea that he might 
wear some sort of armor on top of it - the flat buttons being more comfortable 
than the round...but I have not a clue otherwise.

Thanks,

Sg




> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:37:56 -0400
> From: ail...@neo.rr.com
> To: h-cost...@indra.com
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What colors were used  Charles du Blois Purpoint?
> 
> The buttons down the front are mixed - the one at the very top is flat, the 
> next bunch are balls as are the ones on the sleeves. The ones from about the 
> waist to the bottom of the pourpoint are flat like the one at the top. I 
> can't imagine why they're like that. 
> 
> Kate
>  otsisto  wrote: 
> > http://tinyurl.com/mkzpm9
> > 
> > http://gambesons.com/design
> > Interesting, this shows that the buttons down the front are not the same
> > shape as the ones on the sleeve.
> > 
> > http://tinyurl.com/mj4bws
> > this has a pattern.
> > 
> > De
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > Now that I have some really great close ups of the fabric, does anyone now
> > what color(s) it was supposed to be?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Sg
> > 
> > From: wickedf...@msn.com
> > To: h-cost...@indra.com
> > Subject: Really close up of Charles du Blois Purpoint?
> > Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:40:08 -0700
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I was asked today to make one of these purpoints - given the recent
> > discussion on reproduction prints, does anyone know of any "really up close"
> > photos of the "print" on the fabric of this garment?  It sure would be fun
> > to recreate it that way!
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Sg
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> 
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Re: [h-cost] German early Renaissance gowns

[Sharon Collier]

If it is anything like my mid 1570's English dress, the skirt is separate
from the bodice. The waistband of the skirt is tight to the body. The bodice
is also tight to the body. They just fit well. There may be some gaping if
you raise your arms high, but that wouldn't show in a picture like this. If
a corset/bodies are worn underneath, everything pretty much stays where it
should.

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Joan Mielke
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 7:19 PM
To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
Subject: [h-cost] German early Renaissance gowns

Despite looking at a lot of paintings, I am still puzzled about the waist
closure of early Renaissance gowns.  For example, here: 
http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1525_2.shtml and detail here:
http://www.marquise.de/images/1500/1525_2d1.jpg

Usually the join between the opening of the bodice and the skirt waistband,
if there is one, is obscured by hands, an apron, a belt, folds of fabric,
etc.

So how does this dress close without there being a gap at the waist, either
horizontal or vertical?  Has anyone figured this out?

Thanks,
Joan
@

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