Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern

[Kate Bunting]

Laurie T wrote:

>The chemise in the painting seems unlikely to have a drawstring neckline.
>Any thoughts on this?  

We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and the consensus 
was that before the 18th century they all had sewn gathers round the neck and 
wrists. 

I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on the 17th 
century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed the above statement.

Kate Bunting
Librarian & 17th century reenactor.


_
The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the 
right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in 
error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any 
concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk.
The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern

[Franchesca]

While I agree with this statement I have to add that there are paintings
that you will see strings dangling from the collar and cuffs. These are not
to be confused for draw strings, they are ties. :)

Now for me personally, sometimes finding someone to help me with my ties
makes them just decorative strings. :)

Franchesca 

> -Original Message-
> From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-
> boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Kate Bunting
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:11 AM
> To: h-cost...@indra.com
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern
> 
> Laurie T wrote:
> 
> >The chemise in the painting seems unlikely to have a drawstring neckline.
> >Any thoughts on this?
> 
> We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and the
> consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn gathers round
> the neck and wrists.
> 
> I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on the 17th
> century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed the above
> statement.
> 
> Kate Bunting
> Librarian & 17th century reenactor.
> 
> 
> __
> ___
> The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
reserves
> the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to
you in
> error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any
> concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk.
> The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy
> 
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern

[Bonnie Booker]

> We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and the 
> consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn gathers round 
> the neck and wrists.
>
> I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on the 17th 
> century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed the above 
> statement.
-- 
There was a drawstring shift found in Scandinavia from either the 14th
or 15th century. It was from an archelogical dig there. I don't have
all my books with me right now, but I ran off a copy. I think it might
have been on the Historical Costume List.. I should have bookmarked
it.

Aspasia Moonwind
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern

[Franchesca]

Take a look at these archives:
http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Fashion/search-old.cgi?s=drawstring+shift+&l=hcos06

I see a few URL's but nothing really that says it is a drawstring. But you
may have seen it on another list. Let us know the url if you find it! :)

Franchesca 


> -Original Message-
> From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-
> boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Bonnie Booker
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:24 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern
> 
> > We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and the
> consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn gathers round
> the neck and wrists.
> >
> > I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on the
17th
> century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed the above
> statement.
> --
> There was a drawstring shift found in Scandinavia from either the 14th or
> 15th century. It was from an archelogical dig there. I don't have all my
books
> with me right now, but I ran off a copy. I think it might have been on the
> Historical Costume List.. I should have bookmarked it.
> 
> Aspasia Moonwind
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern

[Franchesca]

Try
http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Fashion/search-old.cgi?s=drawstring+shift+&l=hcos06

I did not see the URL there but if you find it post it here!

Franchesca 

> -Original Message-
> From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-
> boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Bonnie Booker
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:24 AM
> To: Historical Costume
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOPS - forgot subject line - Chemise pattern
> 
> > We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and the
> consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn gathers round
> the neck and wrists.
> >
> > I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on the
17th
> century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed the above
> statement.
> --
> There was a drawstring shift found in Scandinavia from either the 14th or
> 15th century. It was from an archelogical dig there. I don't have all my
books
> with me right now, but I ran off a copy. I think it might have been on the
> Historical Costume List.. I should have bookmarked it.
> 
> Aspasia Moonwind
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[Carol Kocian]

On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:


Laurie T wrote:

The chemise in the painting seems unlikely to have a drawstring  
neckline.

Any thoughts on this?


We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and  
the consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn  
gathers round the neck and wrists.


I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on  
the 17th century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed  
the above statement.


Kate Bunting
Librarian & 17th century reenactor.



Not much in the way of drawstrings in the 18thC, either. There are a  
few cases of a drawstring to snug up or hold the shape of a neckline,  
but not for controlling mass quantities of fabric. Shift sleeves were  
gathered into cuffs that buttoned and sometimes had a ruffle added..  
Some decades had volume in the sleeves, others had less volume when  
the gown sleeves fit closely.


I think the 1960s/70s "peasant" look made us believe drawstrings were  
all over the place.


-Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[Lavolta Press]

Not much in the way of drawstrings in the 18thC, either. There are a few
cases of a drawstring to snug up or hold the shape of a neckline, but
not for controlling mass quantities of fabric.


The 1820s sources I used for _The Lady's Stratagem_ recommended using a 
drawstring around the chemise neckline for "decency" while getting dressed.


Fran
Lavolta Press
Two new books of 1880s clothing patterns!
www.lavoltapress.com


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[Laurie Taylor]

Well, it sounds as though you all have run into enough evidence of sewn
gathers on chemise necklines, for my idea of the chemise in the image being
sewn gathers to be correct.  Did that statement make any sense?

So, I'm thinking that I'll go with the sewn gathers, though getting them
sized right may be a bit tricky.  Of course, worse come to worse, I can
always fall back on an old theatre costume trick to adjust the fit -
catch-stitching over elastic on the inside - not period but not visible, so
if necessary...

Pattern-wise, I'm leaning towards the pattern shown on both of these links.
It should be close enough to the chemise in the image that started all this,
at least for my purposes.  If I were going to produce my own fiber, spin and
weave it, I'd be more concerned about exactly how the image chemise was
made, but this will do.

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cheminst.html

http://www.reddawn.net/costume/chemise.htm

http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/artisansandkings/?page_id=23

Any other thoughts on the pattern most welcome.

Laurie T.


-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Carol Kocian
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:57 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern


On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:

> Laurie T wrote:
>
>> The chemise in the painting seems unlikely to have a drawstring  
>> neckline.
>> Any thoughts on this?
>
> We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and  
> the consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn  
> gathers round the neck and wrists.
>
> I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on  
> the 17th century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed  
> the above statement.
>
> Kate Bunting
> Librarian & 17th century reenactor.


Not much in the way of drawstrings in the 18thC, either. There are a  
few cases of a drawstring to snug up or hold the shape of a neckline,  
but not for controlling mass quantities of fabric. Shift sleeves were  
gathered into cuffs that buttoned and sometimes had a ruffle added..  
Some decades had volume in the sleeves, others had less volume when  
the gown sleeves fit closely.

I think the 1960s/70s "peasant" look made us believe drawstrings were  
all over the place.

-Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[cw15147-hcost01]

As I recall, the general consensus is that this raglan-style is not supported 
by 
current research. If you want a more documentable pattern, go with this one:



As her notes say, this pattern was taken from the book "Cut My Cote" which (as 
I 
recall) itself took the pattern from a surviving garment. People have used this 
pattern for years, and I would say it does result in a garment that looks a lot 
like your example painting.

Refer also to Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 4 for tips on how to 
accomplish 
the gathering. Gathering, back in their day, is a lot more like super-fine 
cartridge pleating. That's really just how it turns out when you do gathering 
stitches by hand (it doesn't have to, but it sure looks good that way).

I think you mentioned that you have fabric, but I will note: to best 
approximate 
this look, you'll benefit from fabric with a super soft hand. This:




might do the job. A pure silk voile might even be better, but I don't know 
where 
to find such fabric.



Claudine




- Original Message 
> From: Laurie Taylor 
> To: Historical Costume 
> Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 11:53:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern
> 

> Pattern-wise, I'm leaning towards the  pattern shown on both of these links.
> It should be close enough to the  chemise in the image that started all this,
> at least for my purposes.   If I were going to produce my own fiber, spin and
> weave it, I'd be more  concerned about exactly how the image chemise was
> made, but this will  do.
> 
> http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cheminst.html
> 
> http://www.reddawn.net/costume/chemise.htm
> 
> http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/artisansandkings/?page_id=23
> 
> Any  other thoughts on the pattern most welcome.
> 
> Laurie  T.
> 


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[Ann Catelli]

Raglan-sleeve chemises have attempted to cut my arms off.

If you must go with them, put a gusset under your arms.

Ann in CT

--- On Mon, 10/11/10, Laurie Taylor  wrote:

> http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/artisansandkings/?page_id=23
> 
> Any other thoughts on the pattern most welcome.
> 
> Laurie T.



  
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[Laurie Taylor]

Wow!  Not only did you answer my question, but you actually managed to send
me a link to a web page that I had not seen before - funny considering that
I am familiar with Festive Attyre, but just missed that chemise page!
That's practically an early X-mas present!

I agree completely about the 'gathering' looking like very fine cartridge
pleating.  It will be a test of my stitching patience, but I love the look.

Yes, the softer and lighter the fabric, the better my odds for success.
I'll try my cotton first, just as a practice run and because it is here and
ready.  After that...time to shop I suppose.

Thank you so much for your response.  With everything that everyone has
offered up in the way of links and ideas, I'm comfortable finally with
getting this chemise started and finished.

Laurie T.




-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On
Behalf Of cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:08 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

As I recall, the general consensus is that this raglan-style is not
supported by 
current research. If you want a more documentable pattern, go with this one:



As her notes say, this pattern was taken from the book "Cut My Cote" which
(as I 
recall) itself took the pattern from a surviving garment. People have used
this 
pattern for years, and I would say it does result in a garment that looks a
lot 
like your example painting.

Refer also to Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 4 for tips on how to
accomplish 
the gathering. Gathering, back in their day, is a lot more like super-fine 
cartridge pleating. That's really just how it turns out when you do
gathering 
stitches by hand (it doesn't have to, but it sure looks good that way).

I think you mentioned that you have fabric, but I will note: to best
approximate 
this look, you'll benefit from fabric with a super soft hand. This:




might do the job. A pure silk voile might even be better, but I don't know
where 
to find such fabric.



Claudine




- Original Message 
> From: Laurie Taylor 
> To: Historical Costume 
> Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 11:53:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern
> 

> Pattern-wise, I'm leaning towards the  pattern shown on both of these
links.
> It should be close enough to the  chemise in the image that started all
this,
> at least for my purposes.   If I were going to produce my own fiber, spin
and
> weave it, I'd be more  concerned about exactly how the image chemise was
> made, but this will  do.
> 
> http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cheminst.html
> 
> http://www.reddawn.net/costume/chemise.htm
> 
> http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/artisansandkings/?page_id=23
> 
> Any  other thoughts on the pattern most welcome.
> 
> Laurie  T.
> 


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume