Re: [h-cost] h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
> Recently, I was given some information which seems wrong to me. I was told > that > > I should be using twill tape to stablize the neck and front opening of a > (pre-tudor) mid-15th century laced front kirtle. To me, that sounds like a > modern sewing technique, but the woman who told me this said that was the way > the extant clothing was done. I've tried doing some research and can't find > anything to confirm it. Does this sound right to anyone here? Thanks. Hi Teena, The Museum of London book, _Clothing and Textiles c.1150-c1450_ by Elizabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard and Kay Staniland has one example from the second quarter of the fourteenth century that they think is a neckline which is finished with a tabby-weave silk ribbon on the inside (page 106). The ribbon is pretty narrow (5mm wide) and sewn with two rows of running stitches (at the neckline edge and the middle of the ribbon) and the bottom edge of the ribbon is held down with a whipstitch (well, the book calls it a hemstitch, but the drawing shows something I’d call a whipstitch rather then a hemstitch… but stitch-terminology is always a bit tricky). I’ve used this as a neckline finish many times – it creates a lovely crisp finish to the edge. The same book shows a late fourteenth century fragment with eyelets (page 164). The fragment shows eyelets on a silk facing, with traces of the woolen cloth that the facing was originally attached too. This was not a ribbon, but a facing – however, the facing (at least along the outer edge which still shows wool fragments) was topstitched on (with a running stitch), which is not how a modern facing would be applied. If it helps any, I recently wrote up documentation for my early 15th century laced front kirtle, and I corral this (and other construction information) all into one place – you can read it here: http://cleftlands.cwru.edu/Sunny/index.html(it’s the Duc de Berry Peasent Dress) -sunny ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
In Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion", Volume 1, there are pictures of a doublet (c. 1610) with buttons with worked linen shanks on the left edge of the front; the clearest picture of the buttons is Figure 162 on page 25. There are other examples. Joan Jurancich At 12:54 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote: Perhaps the Moy Bog dress? I don´t know of any bit of fabric in Textiles and Clothing that would have been complete enough for reconstruction, but the Moy Bog gown is... Hanna At 21:17 14.02.2011, you wrote: Buttons on the edge --- sounds like the extant dress that either Kass McGann or -- saw and reproduced. The dress was either Irish or Scottish in origin. It sticks in my head because the extant dress was *almost* the ladies exact size. Katheryne On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:37 PM, wrote: > Buttons along the edge: that sounds familiar. I feel I've seen a photo of > that...maybe in "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" (Crowfoot. et al) > cited > by Catherine earlier? It's been a while since I did any research related to > that > time period, but "buttons along the edge" triggered an image of an extant > find > in my muddled brain. > > Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
Perusing Kass's research (<http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/historical-clothing.php?c=8&w=103&r=Y>) arguably several of the extent garments have buttons attached at the edge of the closing edge. But that's not what I'm thinking of, I'm remembering a photograph from a book, that included documentation of buttonholes backed with...something, tape or something that looked like tape. Sorry, it's been too long, and I don't remember clearly anymore. Claudine - Original Message > From: Purple Kat > To: Historical Costume > Sent: Mon, February 14, 2011 12:17:16 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique > > Buttons on the edge --- sounds like the extant dress that either Kass > McGann or -- saw and > reproduced. The dress was either Irish or Scottish in origin. > > It sticks in my head because the extant dress was *almost* the ladies exact > size. > > Katheryne > > > On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:37 PM, wrote: > > > Buttons along the edge: that sounds familiar. I feel I've seen a photo of > > that...maybe in "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" (Crowfoot. et al) > > cited > > by Catherine earlier? It's been a while since I did any research related to > > that > > time period, but "buttons along the edge" triggered an image of an extant > > find > > in my muddled brain. > > > > Claudine > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
Textiles and clothing has some images and information about buttons sewn to the edge. I believe it is a piece of sleeve. From: Hanna Zickermann To: Historical Costume Sent: Mon, February 14, 2011 8:54:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique Perhaps the Moy Bog dress? I don´t know of any bit of fabric in Textiles and Clothing that would have been complete enough for reconstruction, but the Moy Bog gown is... Hanna At 21:17 14.02.2011, you wrote: >Buttons on the edge --- sounds like the extant dress that either Kass >McGann or -- saw and >reproduced. The dress was either Irish or Scottish in origin. > >It sticks in my head because the extant dress was *almost* the ladies exact >size. > >Katheryne > > >On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:37 PM, wrote: > > > Buttons along the edge: that sounds familiar. I feel I've seen a photo of > > that...maybe in "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" (Crowfoot. et al) > > cited > > by Catherine earlier? It's been a while since I did any research related to > > that > > time period, but "buttons along the edge" triggered an image of an extant > > find > > in my muddled brain. > > > > Claudine >___ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
Perhaps the Moy Bog dress? I don´t know of any bit of fabric in Textiles and Clothing that would have been complete enough for reconstruction, but the Moy Bog gown is... Hanna At 21:17 14.02.2011, you wrote: Buttons on the edge --- sounds like the extant dress that either Kass McGann or -- saw and reproduced. The dress was either Irish or Scottish in origin. It sticks in my head because the extant dress was *almost* the ladies exact size. Katheryne On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:37 PM, wrote: > Buttons along the edge: that sounds familiar. I feel I've seen a photo of > that...maybe in "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" (Crowfoot. et al) > cited > by Catherine earlier? It's been a while since I did any research related to > that > time period, but "buttons along the edge" triggered an image of an extant > find > in my muddled brain. > > Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
Buttons on the edge --- sounds like the extant dress that either Kass McGann or -- saw and reproduced. The dress was either Irish or Scottish in origin. It sticks in my head because the extant dress was *almost* the ladies exact size. Katheryne On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:37 PM, wrote: > Buttons along the edge: that sounds familiar. I feel I've seen a photo of > that...maybe in "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" (Crowfoot. et al) > cited > by Catherine earlier? It's been a while since I did any research related to > that > time period, but "buttons along the edge" triggered an image of an extant > find > in my muddled brain. > > Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
Buttons along the edge: that sounds familiar. I feel I've seen a photo of that...maybe in "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" (Crowfoot. et al) cited by Catherine earlier? It's been a while since I did any research related to that time period, but "buttons along the edge" triggered an image of an extant find in my muddled brain. Claudine - Original Message > From: otsisto > To: Historical Costume > Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 11:26:24 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique > > > > -Original Message- > he kirtle evidence sounds interesting. Do you remember which list you > saw it on? (I'd love to check back to find the source.) > -- > Cathy Raymond > ca...@thyrsus.com > > This would have been about 6-8 years ago. I am not sure which list. I was > going to say 12th century yahoo list but I was only on that list for two > years. Might have been the SCA garb list. I remember that the kirtle had > portions missing but it did have some of the buttons still attached which is > why I remember it. The buttons were not sewn onto the front of the kirtle > fabric but along the edge. > I usually gather info for myself, I usually don't think to record it as I > think that most here already know most of the things I come across. It is > very rare that I know of something that others do not. > De > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
-Original Message- he kirtle evidence sounds interesting. Do you remember which list you saw it on? (I'd love to check back to find the source.) -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com This would have been about 6-8 years ago. I am not sure which list. I was going to say 12th century yahoo list but I was only on that list for two years. Might have been the SCA garb list. I remember that the kirtle had portions missing but it did have some of the buttons still attached which is why I remember it. The buttons were not sewn onto the front of the kirtle fabric but along the edge. I usually gather info for myself, I usually don't think to record it as I think that most here already know most of the things I come across. It is very rare that I know of something that others do not. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
On 02/12/2011 11:51 PM, otsisto wrote: On another list I remember someone showing an extent kirtle with twill weave binding along the front opening and neckline which was stitched to the back side of the fabric. It appeared to be card woven onto the edge but may have been stitched on (pic. was a wee bit grainy). I believe the woman said that the threads were of wool and linen (warp was one and the other was the weft). So, twill tape is possibly period or a good substitute for the woven on band. That it HAS to be 1/4" is debatable as the extent example was closer to 1/2" and I do not think that there would have been a sumptuary laws that dictated the width of twill tape. For it being made of cotton is highly doubtful for most of Europe but possible in the Mediterranean region, either region it would have been rare and costly. As for binding and edge you are more likely to have in the European and Mediterranean regions linen, wool, hemp, nettle and silk before you would see a cotton bound edge. Egypt on the other h! and would most likely have the cotton binding. Is it possible that there was a miscommunication somewhere? The kirtle evidence sounds interesting. Do you remember which list you saw it on? (I'd love to check back to find the source.) -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com "I'm a little bit disappointed that cat plus Internet doesn't equal YouTube."— Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
-Original Message- On 02/12/2011 02:34 PM, Beteena Paradise wrote: > It isn't exactly what she said as she insisted that it had to be 1/4 inch > cotton > twill tape as that is what was used then, but at least there is support for > silk > binding. Thank you so much! > I greatly doubt it was "cotton" twill tape, and I don't recall seeing any period binding of those dimensions. Still, the more evidence you get the better you can make up your mind as to what *you* think is appropriate. -- Cathy Raymond >>> On another list I remember someone showing an extent kirtle with twill weave binding along the front opening and neckline which was stitched to the back side of the fabric. It appeared to be card woven onto the edge but may have been stitched on (pic. was a wee bit grainy). I believe the woman said that the threads were of wool and linen (warp was one and the other was the weft). So, twill tape is possibly period or a good substitute for the woven on band. That it HAS to be 1/4" is debatable as the extent example was closer to 1/2" and I do not think that there would have been a sumptuary laws that dictated the width of twill tape. For it being made of cotton is highly doubtful for most of Europe but possible in the Mediterranean region, either region it would have been rare and costly. As for binding and edge you are more likely to have in the European and Mediterranean regions linen, wool, hemp, nettle and silk before you would see a cotton bound edge. Egypt on the other h! and would most likely have the cotton binding. Is it possible that there was a miscommunication somewhere? De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
On 02/12/2011 02:34 PM, Beteena Paradise wrote: It isn't exactly what she said as she insisted that it had to be 1/4 inch cotton twill tape as that is what was used then, but at least there is support for silk binding. Thank you so much! I greatly doubt it was "cotton" twill tape, and I don't recall seeing any period binding of those dimensions. Still, the more evidence you get the better you can make up your mind as to what *you* think is appropriate. -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com "I'm a little bit disappointed that cat plus Internet doesn't equal YouTube."— Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
It isn't exactly what she said as she insisted that it had to be 1/4 inch cotton twill tape as that is what was used then, but at least there is support for silk binding. Thank you so much! From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Sent: Sat, February 12, 2011 7:19:58 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique On 02/12/2011 01:18 PM, Beteena Paradise wrote: > Recently, I was given some information which seems wrong to me. I was told that > I should be using twill tape to stablize the neck and front opening of a > (pre-tudor) mid-15th century laced front kirtle. To me, that sounds like a > modern sewing technique, but the woman who told me this said that was the way > the extant clothing was done. I've tried doing some research and can't find > anything to confirm it. Does this sound right to anyone here? Thanks. Take a look at "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" By Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, Kay Staniland Google Books has excerpts of it, but with out the photograph that (to my recollection) shows a piece of different fabric reinforcing the buttonholed edge. The page (as redacted for Google Books) can be found here, but you might be able to get it on Interlibrary Loan if you can't afford to buy it: http://books.google.com/books?id=CY-8T59wHHUC&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=pritchard+14th+century+sleeve&source=bl&ots=KItepaB2Ow&sig=prDR4VKvp4WS92XrcHdjohQ2My4&hl=en&ei=HNxWTZnqLcTflgeG_8nBBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pritchard%2014th%20century%20sleeve&f=false -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com "I'm a little bit disappointed that cat plus Internet doesn't equal YouTube."— Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
On 02/12/2011 01:18 PM, Beteena Paradise wrote: Recently, I was given some information which seems wrong to me. I was told that I should be using twill tape to stablize the neck and front opening of a (pre-tudor) mid-15th century laced front kirtle. To me, that sounds like a modern sewing technique, but the woman who told me this said that was the way the extant clothing was done. I've tried doing some research and can't find anything to confirm it. Does this sound right to anyone here? Thanks. Take a look at "Textiles and clothing, c.1150-c.1450" By Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, Kay Staniland Google Books has excerpts of it, but with out the photograph that (to my recollection) shows a piece of different fabric reinforcing the buttonholed edge. The page (as redacted for Google Books) can be found here, but you might be able to get it on Interlibrary Loan if you can't afford to buy it: http://books.google.com/books?id=CY-8T59wHHUC&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=pritchard+14th+century+sleeve&source=bl&ots=KItepaB2Ow&sig=prDR4VKvp4WS92XrcHdjohQ2My4&hl=en&ei=HNxWTZnqLcTflgeG_8nBBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pritchard%2014th%20century%20sleeve&f=false -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com "I'm a little bit disappointed that cat plus Internet doesn't equal YouTube."— Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 15th c sewing technique
Recently, I was given some information which seems wrong to me. I was told that I should be using twill tape to stablize the neck and front opening of a (pre-tudor) mid-15th century laced front kirtle. To me, that sounds like a modern sewing technique, but the woman who told me this said that was the way the extant clothing was done. I've tried doing some research and can't find anything to confirm it. Does this sound right to anyone here? Thanks. Teena ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
