Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
E House wrote: No offense meant, but I just don't buy it. =} If the seam were far enough up to be concealed by the oversleeve, the whole look/drape would be changed. Even with really careful tailoring and stretching of the bias, a circle-on-a-tube type of sleeve just doesn't give the same shape as one that flares out right at the end. It just looks wrong. I'm sorry, I'm not sure which idea you're not buying? However, if it were flared on the whole length, it wouldn't be bunched up around her right hand like that -- it would trail back inside the red sleeve. Those folds are so even, I don't think a flare at the end would produce them, only a circle sewn on. What sort of flare are you thinking of? One which drops down from the arm, or one which also goes upward? Here's a far less lush flare at the wrist: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/images/hecyra1.jpg It'll take an extant garment or a clear image of the flared sleeve with a seam to convince me. Sigh of general agreement! (That black stuff on the gold lining of her left sleeve doesn't look like stitching to me; it's repeated much lower down on the same lining portion, near the edge. It looks more like some characteristic of the fabric/fur; perhaps a variation on ermine patterning. Agreed. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
Here's a far less lush flare at the wrist: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/images/hecyra1.jpg Great image - where and when is it from? Janet ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
Here's a far less lush flare at the wrist: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/images/hecyra1.jpg Oh -- I forgot to say that iirc, Hecyra (in the URL) is the name of the main character for which this was an illustration in the story. That might help track it down. I tried looking further up Hope's website, but I didn't see it. Providing my memory is accurate! however, I think I found it via a discussion on this list some 6-7 years ago, so searching at the archives on the filename might find more info. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
Here's a far less lush flare at the wrist: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/images/hecyra1.jpg Great image - where and when is it from? Janet It is by the Orosius Master, ca. 1412: Laches accuses Sostrata. Paris, Bil. de L'Arsenal, ms. 664. fol. 213v. It was illustrating a Roman playwright's plays, but I can't find easily which playwright. The picture may be found in French Painting in the Time of Jean de Berry: The Limbourgs and Their Contemporaries (Plates volume), by Millard Meiss, George Braziller, NY. ISBN 0-8076-0734-7. The text volume does say which playwright, somewhere. Ann in CT __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Wrist flare Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
Sorry, should have re-titled the previous message. ACt Here's a far less lush flare at the wrist: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/images/hecyra1.jpg Great image - where and when is it from? Janet It is by the Orosius Master, ca. 1412: Laches accuses Sostrata. Paris, Bil. de L'Arsenal, ms. 664. fol. 213v. Ann in CT __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
I don't know if the sleeve drape was like a lower circle sewn on, like you see on some young women's sleeves today, or if it was another sleeve like the angle-wing ones. This particular picture seems like it must be more like the circle-on-the-sleeve sort, but the TRH ones look a bit more like another big houp sleeve. FYI, there is a Italian (I think) style (a bit earlier then the time of the Tres Riche Hours) that has what looks like circles attached to/acting as the cuffs of the gothic fitted dress's sleeves. There is a picture in _Parades et Parures_ by Odile Blanc. (it's the front piece. For those of you who read French [not me] the description is: 1. La seduction detournant de l'etude. Alors que le corps feminin reste enclos dans une veture continue et monochrome, la parure masculine rend le corps a une diversite des formes et des couleurs. (I had to drop all the accents - I hope it's still decipherable) Elsewhere in the book it attributes the picture to Boccace, Des clereset nobles femmes. Page 59, 125, 173, 185 and 217 all show other pictures from the same manuscript (all of which give different views of the bell-cuffs. The last one shows a gothic fitted dress with the cuffs, without the houpelande). Page 193 also gives a picture of a long bell-cuff from a different manuscript, the Bible historiale, no author given. It is my believe that this is a separate style from the angle-wing under sleeves you see in Tres Riche. -sunny Following on the discussion of this link: http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-1454.z P.S. 2: I can't seem to find a link to an illumination of Boccaccio, Concerning Famous Women on line (which is what I'm guessing the translation of Des clereset nobles femmes is) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: FYI, there is a Italian (I think) style (a bit earlier then the time of the Tres Riche Hours) that has what looks like circles attached to/acting as the cuffs of the gothic fitted dress's sleeves. There is a picture in _Parades et Parures_ by Odile Blanc. (it's the front piece. For those of you who read French [not me] the description is: 1. La seduction detournant de l'etude. Alors que le corps feminin reste enclos dans une veture continue et monochrome, la parure masculine rend le corps a une diversite des formes et des couleurs. (I had to drop all the accents - I hope it's still decipherable) Elsewhere in the book it attributes the picture to Boccace, Des clereset nobles femmes. Page 59, 125, 173, 185 and 217 all show other pictures from the same manuscript (all of which give different views of the bell-cuffs. The last one shows a gothic fitted dress with the cuffs, without the houpelande). Page 193 also gives a picture of a long bell-cuff from a different manuscript, the Bible historiale, no author given. *cool* Are any of these images online anywhere? Thanks! Susan It is my believe that this is a separate style from the angle-wing under sleeves you see in Tres Riche. -sunny Following on the discussion of this link: http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-1454.z P.S. 2: I can't seem to find a link to an illumination of Boccaccio, Concerning Famous Women on line (which is what I'm guessing the translation of Des clereset nobles femmes is) I know that there's *some* Boccaccio on a BNF site, but I don't speak french, so I have *no* clue as to how to go about finding them. *sigh* Jerusha, the linquistically illiterate - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
I've been pondering the long, circle-ona-fitted-sleeve type of early 15thC sleeves for a while, and I've noticed... there doesn't seem to be any seam between the circly type part and the rest of the sleeve. In other words, NOT a circle sewn on, but rather a dramatic flare starting at the wrist. Has anyone seen a painting/illumination/etc that seems to indicate a seam there? For example, in the recently posted painting, there seems to be no disconnect in the fabric's pattern... it looks like it was cut all of a piece with the rest of the sleeve. -E House, ponders too much for her own good. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
Following on the discussion of this link: http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-1454.z +++ (snip) For example, in the recently posted painting, there seems to be no disconnect in the fabric's pattern... it looks like it was cut all of a piece with the rest of the sleeve. -E House, ponders too much for her own good. = E.H., I don't think you can use the above as an example for your theory (which is quite good) because where the seam would be is covered by the houppe's dagging on her right and well the lefth...can someone make out what is on the gold lining near her hand? Looks like a poor seam stitching. Anyway that attachment to sleeve seam is covered if it was there. The Marie of Hungary dress http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/hungarian_cutting.jpg shows a conical piece attached to the sleeve. This does not mean that the previous picture's cuffs are made that way but are more like to have been. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
*cool* Are any of these images online anywhere? In my quick (~15 minutes) on-line search I didn't find anything. But I'm not very familiar with the on-line manuscript archives... My search was limited to goggling various terms. Sorry! I would've liked to have given links in my earlier e-mail rather then referring to page numbers in a fairly obscure book (at least obscure to us English speakers :-) ) I know that there's *some* Boccaccio on a BNF site, but I don't speak french, so I have *no* clue as to how to go about finding them. *sigh* It doesn't help that Boccaccio wrote in Italian, so I was attempting to come up with the English versions based on the translation from Italian into French and then trying to come up with the correct English term based on the French... Game of telephone, anyone? :-) The full attribution in the back of the book for the Boccaccio manuscript was: Paris, Bibliotheque nationale, ms. Fr. 598, Bocacce, Des cleres et nobles femmes, Paris, vers 1403, fol. 6v. The different pictures I referenced have different numbers for the Fr. 598 number, and different folio versions listed, though all have the 1403 date. -sunny P.S. for those of you seriously into the high middle ages, about half the pictures in _Parades et Parures_ were not ones I recognized. I've felt the book was well worth purchasing despite my inability to actually _read_ it :-). I got mine from amazon.fr ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
No offense meant, but I just don't buy it. =} If the seam were far enough up to be concealed by the oversleeve, the whole look/drape would be changed. Even with really careful tailoring and stretching of the bias, a circle-on-a-tube type of sleeve just doesn't give the same shape as one that flares out right at the end. It just looks wrong. It'll take an extant garment or a clear image of the flared sleeve with a seam to convince me. Speaking of extant garments, I'm afraid the Mary of Hungary dress isn't enough, either! It's almost a century older than this painting and much more than a century older than some of the earlier renditions of this sleeve. And above all, it just plain looks nothing like the style of sleeve in question. There are mid-15thC paintings that show sleeves similar to the M of H sleeve, all stiff and structured. Why would they consistently portray the same type of sleeve two very very different ways? (That black stuff on the gold lining of her left sleeve doesn't look like stitching to me; it's repeated much lower down on the same lining portion, near the edge. It looks more like some characteristic of the fabric/fur; perhaps a variation on ermine patterning. The black spots on the edging of her right arm sleeve make it look to me like they are ermine lined, but given the aging it's hard to be sure. Either way, it's at the wrong place/angle to be stitching between circle and tube; it's at about a 45 degree angle to the edge of the sleeve's hem, which just wouldn't make sense. Of course, it doesn't make much sense for ermine, either, but anyway...) Sorry. I'm difficult, I know! =} Especially when I'm trying real hard to not come down with a cold... -E 'Zicam' House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
So could the undergarment be exposed, used like a outer gown and the houppelande used like a coat? De -Original Message- Dutch, I belive. There's more text at the website -- higher up the tree as it were. Websearches on her name turn up a lot, too. The draped undersleeve like that is seen in several other paintings of this time, most notably the Tres Riches Heures. http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-1454.z -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent Feeling like your Middle Age is upon you? New design at my CafePress store, with a medieval woodcut of a pharmacist, a paen to OTC drugs, and a quote from Chaucer about old(er) age. Black T-shirt, various other colors items: http://www.cafepress.com/virtueventures.39314581 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Houppelande with tie fastenings
otsisto wrote: So could the undergarment be exposed, used like a outer gown and the houppelande used like a coat? I'm quite sure that most of the time a houppelande was like a coat, or maybe a sweater (jumper to you in the UK.) There was at least one outer gown under there, of several different potential types (one being the Van Der Weyden kirtle a la Mary Magdalen.) I don't know if the sleeve drape was like a lower circle sewn on, like you see on some young women's sleeves today, or if it was another sleeve like the angle-wing ones. This particular picture seems like it must be more like the circle-on-the-sleeve sort, but the TRH ones look a bit more like another big houp sleeve. cv ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
