[h-cost] Quick lace question
I'm out of my period on this one. Can anyone give me a rough date/place for when lace appears -- meaning something that would be recognized by a modern person as "lace"? (I mean the trimming, not lacing cord or points.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
Hi Robin, If you look in the archives, i have posted a coupple of times about the first written proof of bobbin lace. Dont remember the year and date for it. It was an italian letter and the lace worked on had 6 pairs of bobbins. Bjarne Original Message - From: "Robin Netherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Historic Costume List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 12:05 AM Subject: [h-cost] Quick lace question I'm out of my period on this one. Can anyone give me a rough date/place for when lace appears -- meaning something that would be recognized by a modern person as "lace"? (I mean the trimming, not lacing cord or points.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
Hey there Robin... There are two main ways to make lace... start with cloth and put holes into it to form the lace (punti tagliati, hedebo work, cut work, embroidered lace) and the other way is to form lace from string by forming a repetitive pattern that becomes the body of the work (bobbin lace, tatting, knitted, knotwork) All can create lace... cloth with a pattern of holes in it. Woven techniques are perhaps the oldest. So can you give a little more information of what you are looking for... I'll dig through the library. Bridgette On 4/18/06, Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm out of my period on this one. Can anyone give me a rough date/place > for when lace appears -- meaning something that would be recognized by a > modern person as "lace"? (I mean the trimming, not lacing cord or points.) > > --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Marie Stewart wrote: > There are two main ways to make lace... start with cloth and put > holes into it to form the lace (punti tagliati, hedebo work, cut work, > embroidered lace) and the other way is to form lace from string by > forming a repetitive pattern that becomes the body of the work (bobbin > lace, tatting, knitted, knotwork) > > All can create lace... cloth with a pattern of holes in it. Woven > techniques are perhaps the oldest. So can you give a little > more information of what you are looking for... I'll dig through the > library. No library digging needed for this one, I think; I suspect you can give me enough for my purposes off the top of your head! Here's the situation: I'm editing an article that refers to depictions of the Virgin in 14th and 15th century European paintings as showing clothes decorated with such rich ornamentations as "ermine, jewels, and pure gold lace." I'm quite familiar with the paintings of this period, and I've never seen anything in them that could reliably be called "gold lace," so I suspect that the author (not being a costume person) is misapplying a modern term to another type of decoration. She probably just means trim borders or embroidery, but I can't put words into her mouth. In asking her exactly what it is she's trying to call attention to, I need to explain that the wording she's used won't work, because lace (as readers would interpret the term) wasn't used yet. I'd like to be on firm ground when I say that, and it would help if I could say that "what is commonly thought of as lace trim on clothing doesn't appear until X period; I suspect you're describing something else." So, I don't need a specific date for the technique, just a ballpark half-century or quarter-century in which something visibly recognizable as "lace" became commonly used as clothing decoration. I know I see recognizable lace all over Elizabethan art, and I don't see it in 14th century art. But I don't have a sense for when exactly it starts cropping up as a typical feature in depictions of clothing. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
So, I don't need a specific date for the technique, just a ballpark half-century or quarter-century in which something visibly recognizable as "lace" became commonly used as clothing decoration. I know I see recognizable lace all over Elizabethan art, and I don't see it in 14th century art. But I don't have a sense for when exactly it starts cropping up as a typical feature in depictions of clothing. In the 18th century, lace was also a woven tape that could be used around buttonholes and worked into patterns on some military coats. There are also the laces that go through eyelets to fasten things. I know what you mean, though, if the author means something like that, readers will be looking for string & holes. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
> No library digging needed for this one, I think; I suspect you can give me > enough for my purposes off the top of your head! Thanks... wow. > > Here's the situation: I'm editing an article that refers to depictions of > the Virgin in 14th and 15th century European paintings as showing clothes > decorated with such rich ornamentations as "ermine, jewels, and pure gold > lace." I'm quite familiar with the paintings of this period, and I've > never seen anything in them that could reliably be called "gold lace," I agree with you about the "gold lace" probably being a misapplication or a misinterpretation of the term. As far as is known lace evolved in the realm of linen fibers, not in the metalics. Bone lace, or bobbin lace, didn't show up until mid or near the end of the 16th century. And that was the breakthrough that led to metalic threads first being formed into patterns of lace and applied to clothing. The first records of the bone laces all seem to refer to linen fibers, but are soon filled out with laces in gold, silver and copper. Prior to that... there is all types of embroidered work, both in and above the cloth. Passamentiere work can be mistaken for lace in some cases. Now there is plenty of woven metalic edgings and ribbons that could have a pattern that appeared to be lacey. A pattern in the ribbon worked in gold on a ground of the same color as the garment... that's possible, maybe. Hope that's good enough... I don't have my Levy right next to me and I'm working from memory. BTW... an aside and a small rant... If this author is talking about or referring to the Prague exhibit in any way... they might be falling vicitim to some errors I saw in the exhibit information. There was one chausible, lovely thing, all 14th century embroidery, but the card next to it failed to mention that the orphrey (?) had been remounted sometime in the 16th or 17th century. Because there on the chausible all about the edge was a bobbin lace border of gold and silver thread so, just FYI. Bridgette so > I suspect that the author (not being a costume person) is misapplying a > modern term to another type of decoration. She probably just means trim > borders or embroidery, but I can't put words into her mouth. In asking her > exactly what it is she's trying to call attention to, I need to explain > that the wording she's used won't work, because lace (as readers would > interpret the term) wasn't used yet. I'd like to be on firm ground when I > say that, and it would help if I could say that "what is commonly thought > of as lace trim on clothing doesn't appear until X period; I suspect > you're describing something else." > > So, I don't need a specific date for the technique, just a ballpark > half-century or quarter-century in which something visibly recognizable as > "lace" became commonly used as clothing decoration. I know I see > recognizable lace all over Elizabethan art, and I don't see it in 14th > century art. But I don't have a sense for when exactly it starts cropping > up as a typical feature in depictions of clothing. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Carol Kocian wrote: > In the 18th century, lace was also a woven tape that could be > used around buttonholes and worked into patterns on some military > coats. There are also the laces that go through eyelets to fasten > things. > > I know what you mean, though, if the author means something like > that, readers will be looking for string & holes. Yes, this is not meant to be complicated. As I said earlier, she's talking about a decoration (not lacings) and didn't know the right term. In other words: Non-costume person looks at 14th c. art and says, "Oh, see the pretty gold lace." I'm saying, "Whatever you're looking at is not lace, which wasn't invented till XXX. Tell me what you're seeing and I'll help you find the right word." I need "XXX." --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
Dawn wrote: Robin Netherton wrote: So, I don't need a specific date for the technique, just a ballpark half-century or quarter-century in which something visibly recognizable as "lace" became commonly used as clothing decoration. I know I see recognizable lace all over Elizabethan art, and I don't see it in 14th century art. But I don't have a sense for when exactly it starts cropping up as a typical feature in depictions of clothing. The documentation I have (an SCA handout with pictures) shows drawn and cutwork "lace" as early as the 1400's and thread-and-bobbin lace mentioned in 1493, and a pattern book published in 1524. I would say "late 15th century" is a safe guess. I should clarify my last statement, as late 15th century being a date for the earliest kinds of work we'd recognize today, and give "early 16th century" as a better date for common useage (at least among european nobility). Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
Being the first to have the book handy and a few minutes to type. the very first sentence of Chapter 1 of THE classic reference, Santina Levey's _Lace: A History_, says: "During the two decades 1560 to 1580, lace became an increasingly important feature of fashionable dress in most European countries, and this development can be traced in contemporary records and in the portraits of the period." She goes on to say that decorative "crimped and goffered EDGES" appear in the _15th_ century, in the same places we would expect to find lace some decades later -- but they are merely a "laundry technique" and not needlework of any kind. In the late 15th and early 16th centuries we can see "decorative edges" that _do_ involve needlework of some kind on the edges of veils, and at the necks and wrists of smocks and shirts. These edges were created with embroidery (oversewing and buttonhole stitch), beads, seed pearls or applied cords. "Many of these edge decorations were carried out in colored silk or metal thread, a fact which has tended to obscure their links with later linen laces." The earliest record of some sort of trimming made with bobbins is 1476, by the ladies of the household of Eleanor d'Este, but it's almost certainly a cord, since the account book says "...cordella facto a piombino...". "There was no moment," she says, "at which any of the above techniques either changed into or were replaced by lace. Gradually, however, during the second quarter of the sixteenth century, changing tastes in trimmings and embroidery resulted in the exaggeration of certain effects: in particular, greater emphasis was placed on decorated seams and edgings Needle and bobbin lace began to emerge in response to these demands, but it was a long time before they were seen to have become separated from the older techniques... Indeed, one of the clearest indications of the newness of lace is its lack of a name that is wholly its own." As for possible early dates for metallic lace, "...Although, therefore, fifteenth-century references to 'lace', such as the mantle lace worn by Richard III at his coronation in 1485, really refer to cords and braids, it is possible that some of the later references to 'passementerie' may refer to early bobbin laceThe 'Pasmens of gold' and 'passmeyn riband' worn respectively by Mary I and Edward VI were certainly braids, but the more explicitly described 'Passmeyn lace of bone work of gold' mentioned in the Lord Chamberlain's Accounts for 1553 was bobbin lace." (She gives a footnote for this conclusion, but doesn't justify it further. She goes on to describe a "white silver bone lace" of 1560 and "6 white smocks edged with white needle lace" in 1558-9.) That help? -- OChris Laning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Chris Laning wrote: > That help? Yes! Thank you for typing it all in. (Dollars to donuts my author came up with "gold lace" by quoting some art book or museum description, whose author had no clue about any of these techniques.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
On Apr 18, 2006, at 5:24 PM, Robin Netherton wrote: Here's the situation: I'm editing an article that refers to depictions of the Virgin in 14th and 15th century European paintings as showing clothes decorated with such rich ornamentations as "ermine, jewels, and pure gold lace." I'm quite familiar with the paintings of this period, and I've never seen anything in them that could reliably be called "gold lace," so I suspect that the author (not being a costume person) is misapplying a modern term to another type of decoration. She probably just means trim borders or embroidery, but I can't put words into her mouth. In asking her exactly what it is she's trying to call attention to, I need to explain that the wording she's used won't work, because lace (as readers would interpret the term) wasn't used yet. I'd like to be on firm ground when I say that, and it would help if I could say that "what is commonly thought of as lace trim on clothing doesn't appear until X period; I suspect you're describing something else." Something is twigging my memory. There's a number of paintings of the Virgin from roughly that period from eastern Europe that feature veils edged with some sort of decorative edging depicted in gold that I could easily see someone describing as "lace" for want of a better word. The paintings are fairly stylized and it's hard to tell whether the motifs are intended to depict an actual decorative threadwork technique or what. But what it appears to be is an edging made either of gold thread or gold in some other form that stands out from the edge of the veil in open designs, often with little pendant bits. I'm describing this very badly -- I wish I could find an example on the web to point to. My memory is telling me that there are several examples in Sronkova's "Gothic Woman's Fashion", but alas I don't own a copy of that book. But what I'm wondering is whether the author is trying to describe something of this sort and accidentally evoking a later style of "lace". Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > But what I'm wondering is whether the author is trying to describe > something of this sort and accidentally evoking a later style of "lace". Since she's describing clothes and not veils, probably not. Fortunately I don't have to guess; I'll ask her what she's looking at and help her find the right word, once I've explained why "lace" won't do. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Quick lace question
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Marie Stewart wrote: > I agree with you about the "gold lace" probably being a misapplication > or a misinterpretation of the term. As far as is known lace evolved > in the realm of linen fibers, not in the metalics. Bone lace, or > bobbin lace, didn't show up until mid or near the end of the 16th > century. And that was the breakthrough that led to metalic threads > first being formed into patterns of lace and applied to clothing. > The first records of the bone laces all seem to refer to linen fibers, > but are soon filled out with laces in gold, silver and copper. And we have a winner! I don't need to precisely identify the specific thing she's looking at -- she's talking about a category of paintings, not a certain one. I just needed to be able to say why I know for sure it is not "lace." And that is because lace (as she would understand it) wasn't made till the mid-to-late 16th c. Now I can figure out, with her, whether she means "embroidery" or "borders" or "goldwork" or some other general category. Thanks for the verification, and thanks to Bjarne, too, who was the first one to step up with an answer. > BTW... an aside and a small rant... If this author is talking about or > referring to the Prague exhibit in any way... they might be falling > vicitim to some errors I saw in the exhibit information. There was > one chausible, lovely thing, all 14th century embroidery, but the card > next to it failed to mention that the orphrey (?) had been remounted > sometime in the 16th or 17th century. Because there on the chausible > all about the edge was a bobbin lace border of gold and silver > thread so, just FYI. Nope. Not artifacts at all in this case. European paintings. But yeah ... about the museum card, gah. Too often the people who write those generally are not the specialists who can tell you the details. So, I hope this served as the entertainment for the day... --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
