Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Dave Roi]

Oh god finally someone who understands...

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 20:35, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 2008/9/17 Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Showing people the stuff that they cannot do using
> > point-and-click (which today is quite a lot).
>
> Don't do that until they ask.
>
> People who grew up on Windows don't care how much time the cli will
> save them. Just showing it to them will make them think that they
> _have_ to use it. That is enough to drive them away.
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
> א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
>
> ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/9/17 Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Showing people the stuff that they cannot do using
> point-and-click (which today is quite a lot).

Don't do that until they ask.

People who grew up on Windows don't care how much time the cli will
save them. Just showing it to them will make them think that they
_have_ to use it. That is enough to drive them away.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 07:01:56PM +0200, Orr Dunkelman wrote:

> I remember an insta party in Tel Aviv (Dizingof Center) that got a
> very nice PR, and 4 installations...

OK. So let's assume that this is the expected turnout of an instaparty,
and that the main issue is with support later on.

So maybe dedicate a "support corner" on each club meeting?

-- 
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Orr Dunkelman]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> By whom? By someone who says so in the forums? And what is "Linux" for that
> matter?

By ha'aretz columns that says that Linux is ready.

Because this is no longer the end of the 90's where there was one
Linux in a million. Today, you see it in the army, you see it on most
Technion's computers, you even see this at friends. Yes, I have a
friend who installed Linux because he wanted, and not because of my
brainwash (of course, he is no longer my friend ;) ).

>> Someone who heard this would not understand why he needs to carry his
>> cumbersome computer to an event to get this done for him, or take specific
>> time out of his day to come in with his laptop.
>
> Yes, that's the spirit of the day. You have to arrive, and you either do
> that for the lectures, or the installation which should take no more than 30
> minutes. Those who will arrive with a computer actually need us. Later, at
> home, they might waste much more time, or they will give up on trying.

The question is whether the installation is the bottleneck.

I would like the newcomers to Linux in this mailing list to raise
their hands - was the first installation your barrier? Or was the
first barrier was something else?

(I know this is somewhat biased, as if you are on this mailing list,
you've managed to go around it, but this should give us some
understanding on what's going on).

>
>> He is told he can do this at his own leisure - and this is what he
>> prefers.
>
> He is told so by whom?

Ha'aretz. Ynet. Many talkbacks in websites.

>> Furthermore, he wouldn't want to install a yet-unknown (especially to his
>> neighbours' kid) operating system if he didn't know he could "handle" it
>> himself.
>
> That's one of the reasons why an installation party is needed, and the
> "support", afterwards, although the best distribution for the beginners is
> not only the one that makes you feel comfortable, but also gives you less
> "headache" afterwards. It sounds absurd, but we want to be able to give him
> as little help as possible. When he starts checking his distribution, he
> will ask the right questions and not because part of his hardware was not
> operative. The best way to show that something works is to let them see that
> it's working on their own machine. The installation itself is part of the
> support, but ofcourse not the only one.

I agree that for beginners you should use the less-headache distro.

> You assume that they will do it by themselves. In this case they can also
> search for any information in the Internet and not to arrive to lectures
> (they can listen to good lectures that are relevant for them). You actually
> say why SiL is not needed, because it's so easy... at worst we will upload
> the papers and let them read it and deal with it. If you understand the
> difference between a lecture and lecture notes, you should also understand
> the difference between giving instructions and helping someone doing it on
> his own computer. You don't understand the audience. It's something new for
> them (usually), and the things that look easy and trivial to you, might not
> look so for them. In addition to that, I am talking about a general
> audience, not only about the Technion (although it's true for Technion
> students as well).

Well, I can tell you that people would prefer to avoid a "Linux Club"
but come for a specially introductory lectures.
The thing is that Linux is not that new anymore. To get along you no
longer need command line knowledge. You'll need it only when things
will get screwed, and even that is less and less frequent these days
on a modern distro.

>> This creates a situation in which everyone would want to install Linux in
>> their own time, meaning they'd need any initial support at a different time.
>> For this reason, I send new installers to this mailing list if they have any
>> problems, hoping that they might bring their computer into the next Haifux
>> meeting so someone could help them. An organized event might raise
>> awareness, but installations would happen afterwards, at home.
>
> You are talking about some ideal that doesn't exist.

NUMBERS! How many people arrived to the last instaparty in Tel Aviv?
Or wasn't an insta party in August Penguin?

I remember an insta party in Tel Aviv (Dizingof Center) that got a
very nice PR, and 4 installations...

> If that was true (for beginners) - we shouldn't have needed a Linux club.
Actually, Haifux was founded for programmers.
The evengalism started due to the fact that we thought it would
increase the user base in Israel -> increase the programmers base &
increase the probability that someone would piss at our general
direction here in Israel.

Guess what?

Even banks start to understand that Linux is an issue (given their
slow learning curve).

> All we would need was an FTP server to upload lecture notes. If Linux is so
> easy for everyone, we don't need to do anything phys

Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Adir wrote:
> > We want to:
> > 1) Show them that it's working with their computer
> live CD.


That will be a great way to help them installing that Live CD...

> 2) Give them a system that they can use later at home
> If they cannot install today's distro at their own, they won't be able
> to handle it later at home. We are past the times of delicate
> partitioning, OSS failures, and ppp configurations (and let's not
> forget the crappy driver support the 2.0.36 kernel had with comparison
> to (that era's) windows).


You can't even fix a Windows problem (you have to reboot, usually). That
doesn't mean that they are capable of installing it. Most of the "hard work"
is the installation process. With the experience they will gain, they will
be able to install it later once again and do other advanced things.

> What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by
> themselves,
> > but we'll do it for them.
>
> This is the only thing that they actually need to do on their own
> today. The install software is even nice enough to ask you what you
> want to boot...


Yes, but we want to show them how easy it is on their own computer. I have
no doubt that it's an easy process. Most likely they won't do it by
themselves after the lectures. This is a good chance that somebody will show
them how easy it is both to install and to work with.

> "Playing" in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use
> it
> > because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their
> > computers all the time...
>
> I know of dead installations that nobody touched since it was
> installed. And people brought their computer because they could not do
> it themselves. They can do it themselves today.


That's a different audience. Experiencing your disto installation once is
more than enough. Later he can try doing whatever he likes. Most of the
people who will arrive to install, don't have such an experience for sure.


> I agree that there were problems in organization. However, if we
> failed to prepare it in a good manner for four times, I find it very
> hard to believe it will succeed in the fifth. Especially as the number
> of volunteers has dropped (even finding lecturers for haifux is not as
> easy in the past), as Actcom (RIP in the heaven of the Ltd. companies)
> will not fund the event, and as the dorm farms can no longer be the
> source of supplies for installation stuff (and I suspect that Aryeh
> cannot help much as well). Oh. And the farms cannot offer accomodating
> the event, and Beit hastudent is under construction-work. So all in
> all, we are talking about more problems, and less resources.


I agree with you here. It will be even more difficult this time. No doubt.
The main problem is number of volunteers, but that's a totally different
discussion. That's why I'm not 100% sure that I want to get into that,
although I believe that it is highly important.

Adir
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Adir wrote:
> > We want to:
> > 1) Show them that it's working with their computer
> live CD.


That will be a great way to help them installing that Live CD...

> 2) Give them a system that they can use later at home
> If they cannot install today's distro at their own, they won't be able
> to handle it later at home. We are past the times of delicate
> partitioning, OSS failures, and ppp configurations (and let's not
> forget the crappy driver support the 2.0.36 kernel had with comparison
> to (that era's) windows).


You can't even fix a Windows problem (you have to reboot, usually). That
doesn't mean that they are capable of installing it. Most of the "hard work"
is the installation process. With the experience they will gain, they will
be able to install it later once again and do other advanced things.

> What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by
> themselves,
> > but we'll do it for them.
>
> This is the only thing that they actually need to do on their own
> today. The install software is even nice enough to ask you what you
> want to boot...


Yes, but we want to show them how easy it is on their own computer. I have
no doubt that it's an easy process. Most likely they won't do it by
themselves after the lectures. This is a good chance that somebody will show
them how easy it is both to install and to work with.

> "Playing" in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use
> it
> > because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their
> > computers all the time...
>
> I know of dead installations that nobody touched since it was
> installed. And people brought their computer because they could not do
> it themselves. They can do it themselves today.


That's a different audience. Experiencing your disto installation once is
more than enough. Later he can try doing whatever he likes. Most of the
people who will arrive to install, don't have such an experience for sure.


> I agree that there were problems in organization. However, if we
> failed to prepare it in a good manner for four times, I find it very
> hard to believe it will succeed in the fifth. Especially as the number
> of volunteers has dropped (even finding lecturers for haifux is not as
> easy in the past), as Actcom (RIP in the heaven of the Ltd. companies)
> will not fund the event, and as the dorm farms can no longer be the
> source of supplies for installation stuff (and I suspect that Aryeh
> cannot help much as well). Oh. And the farms cannot offer accomodating
> the event, and Beit hastudent is under construction-work. So all in
> all, we are talking about more problems, and less resources.


I agree with you here. It will be even more difficult this time. No doubt.
The main problem is number of volunteers, but that's a totally different
discussion. That's why I'm not 100% sure that I want to get into that,
although I believe that it is highly important.

Adir
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Orr Dunkelman]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Every year is a new year with new people who wish to learn and get familiar
> with new things. I also don't believe that we actually organized it in such
> a great way where we can say that we can't improve it anymore.

This was the case also last time, and the time before, and even the
time before it. As I said before, it is unlikely that the fifth time
will work better with more problems and less resources.

> You can add a special table for configurations. It's been done in the past.
> Most of the requests are the same. Let's call that place "Practical FAQ" :-)

We tried this at least once before. When I counted 15 it was including
the two people who brought the computer.

> There's no problem in doing that today. One of way to attract new users is
> to show them GUI installation and post-installation.
But not on their machine. That's the key idea of an insta party - to
put it on their machine. If they want Linux, they'll install on their
own. If not, they won't come at all.

> Lectures can be relevant if they are done, for example, in two tracks -
> newbies and techies. Some lectures can be combined for both groups in the
> same time.
Adir, I think that we will have problems manning even one track, two
tracks is above our heads.

And btw, the last time we had two tracks, 5 people arrived to the
newbie track. All of which could have entered the more advanced one,
if they had any self confidence.


-- 
Orr Dunkelman,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.

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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

On 9/17/08, Ohad Lutzky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Consider the climate: Linux is often touted as easy-to-install and
> easy-to-use.
>

By whom? By someone who says so in the forums? And what is "Linux" for that
matter?

Someone who heard this would not understand why he needs to carry his
> cumbersome computer to an event to get this done for him, or take specific
> time out of his day to come in with his laptop.
>

Yes, that's the spirit of the day. You have to arrive, and you either do
that for the lectures, or the installation which should take no more than 30
minutes. Those who will arrive with a computer actually need us. Later, at
home, they might waste much more time, or they will give up on trying.

He is told he can do this at his own leisure - and this is what he prefers.
>

He is told so by whom?

Furthermore, he wouldn't want to install a yet-unknown (especially to his
> neighbours' kid) operating system if he didn't know he could "handle" it
> himself.
>

That's one of the reasons why an installation party is needed, and the
"support", afterwards, although the best distribution for the beginners is
not only the one that makes you feel comfortable, but also gives you less
"headache" afterwards. It sounds absurd, but we want to be able to give him
as little help as possible. When he starts checking his distribution, he
will ask the right questions and not because part of his hardware was not
operative. The best way to show that something works is to let them see that
it's working on their own machine. The installation itself is part of the
support, but ofcourse not the only one.

Figuring out the downloading & installing part on his own is very useful to
> gain this confidence (i.e. "if I'm going to use this, I better be able to
> install it myself, I don't want those guys to do it for me and when I get
> home I'll be lost without their assistance"). This occurs no matter how much
> you assure the people that "we'll install it in such a way that you can use
> it forever and ever by yourself without our help".
>

You assume that they will do it by themselves. In this case they can also
search for any information in the Internet and not to arrive to lectures
(they can listen to good lectures that are relevant for them). You actually
say why SiL is not needed, because it's so easy... at worst we will upload
the papers and let them read it and deal with it. If you understand the
difference between a lecture and lecture notes, you should also understand
the difference between giving instructions and helping someone doing it on
his own computer. You don't understand the audience. It's something new for
them (usually), and the things that look easy and trivial to you, might not
look so for them. In addition to that, I am talking about a general
audience, not only about the Technion (although it's true for Technion
students as well).

This creates a situation in which everyone would want to install Linux in
> their own time, meaning they'd need any initial support at a different time.
> For this reason, I send new installers to this mailing list if they have any
> problems, hoping that they might bring their computer into the next Haifux
> meeting so someone could help them. An organized event might raise
> awareness, but installations would happen afterwards, at home.
>

You are talking about some ideal that doesn't exist.

I think Orr said it best - what we need is SiL lectures, and lots of them.
> We can use the W2L advertisements to promote some SiL lectures, perhaps in
> higher density (and perhaps about topic which are more attractive to new
> users) around the W2L date.
>

If that was true (for beginners) - we shouldn't have needed a Linux club.
All we would need was an FTP server to upload lecture notes. If Linux is so
easy for everyone, we don't need to do anything physical for beginners, and
if it was so familiar, nobody would need us. But this is not the truth. The
truth is that we need to help them to get into it in a better way. I believe
that we miss a lot of people who want to know but they are just afraid, or
not familiar, and the _result_ is googling everything, without necessarily
getting the right kickoff they need.

Adir
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[Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Orr Dunkelman]

Adir wrote:
> We want to:
> 1) Show them that it's working with their computer
live CD.

> 2) Give them a system that they can use later at home
If they cannot install today's distro at their own, they won't be able
to handle it later at home. We are past the times of delicate
partitioning, OSS failures, and ppp configurations (and let's not
forget the crappy driver support the 2.0.36 kernel had with comparison
to (that era's) windows).

> What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by themselves,
> but we'll do it for them.

This is the only thing that they actually need to do on their own
today. The install software is even nice enough to ask you what you
want to boot...

> "Playing" in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use it
> because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their
> computers all the time...

I know of dead installations that nobody touched since it was
installed. And people brought their computer because they could not do
it themselves. They can do it themselves today.

> I think that it was not organized well last times. I even explained it a few
> times. The low numbers are the reason for the bad organization, and lessons
> were taken. It still is a matter of willing to help, and not talking in
> numbers. The people will arrive if it is properly arranged. The installation
> can be part of a Linux Day, so more people will arrive. The instaparty must
> be linked somehow to a series of lectures for begineers, either as part of a
> Welcome to Linux day or as a separate day just for installations and
> relevant lectures, as it used to be.

I agree that there were problems in organization. However, if we
failed to prepare it in a good manner for four times, I find it very
hard to believe it will succeed in the fifth. Especially as the number
of volunteers has dropped (even finding lecturers for haifux is not as
easy in the past), as Actcom (RIP in the heaven of the Ltd. companies)
will not fund the event, and as the dorm farms can no longer be the
source of supplies for installation stuff (and I suspect that Aryeh
cannot help much as well). Oh. And the farms cannot offer accomodating
the event, and Beit hastudent is under construction-work. So all in
all, we are talking about more problems, and less resources.


--
Orr Dunkelman,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.

GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
(This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key
corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED])



-- 
Orr Dunkelman,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.

GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Ohad Lutzky]

First, I strongly support Tzafrir's point, which is echoed here by Adir:

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You can add a special table for configurations. It's been done in the past.
> Most of the requests are the same. Let's call that place "Practical FAQ" :-)
>
>

That's the only thing which would be truly useful. However, I still think
that an instaparty or a supportparty would not be helpful:

Consider the climate: Linux is often touted as easy-to-install and
easy-to-use. Someone who heard this would not understand why he needs to
carry his cumbersome computer to an event to get this done for him, or take
specific time out of his day to come in with his laptop. He is told he can
do this at his own leisure - and this is what he prefers. Furthermore, he
wouldn't want to install a yet-unknown (especially to his neighbours' kid)
operating system if he didn't know he could "handle" it himself. Figuring
out the downloading & installing part on his own is very useful to gain this
confidence (i.e. "if I'm going to use this, I better be able to install it
myself, I don't want those guys to do it for me and when I get home I'll be
lost without their assistance"). This occurs no matter how much you assure
the people that "we'll install it in such a way that you can use it forever
and ever by yourself without our help".

This creates a situation in which everyone would want to install Linux in
their own time, meaning they'd need any initial support at a different time.
For this reason, I send new installers to this mailing list if they have any
problems, hoping that they might bring their computer into the next Haifux
meeting so someone could help them. An organized event might raise
awareness, but installations would happen afterwards, at home.

I think Orr said it best - what we need is SiL lectures, and lots of them.
We can use the W2L advertisements to promote some SiL lectures, perhaps in
higher density (and perhaps about topic which are more attractive to new
users) around the W2L date.


-- 
Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal that
is struck with the difference between what things are and what they ought to
be.
- William Hazlitt

Ohad Lutzky
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I think a good answer to whether these are needed or not is the
> attendance in the last few ones. I haven't been to the last one (where
> Moshik Afia has arrived), but I've been to many before, and the last
> three I've attended were more populated with installers than
> installees. Yes. We are talking about less than 20 installation the
> whole day (or even less).


Every year is a new year with new people who wish to learn and get familiar
with new things. I also don't believe that we actually organized it in such
a great way where we can say that we can't improve it anymore.

In case an instaparty does happen:
>
>
> > I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed
> but
> > aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to
> their
> > ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc..
>
> most people do not use dial-up these days.
> moreover, if you'll get many people, you won't have time for that.
> If you'll get a few - what's the point in the whole event?


You can add a special table for configurations. It's been done in the past.
Most of the requests are the same. Let's call that place "Practical FAQ" :-)


> I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post
> install
> > configurations using GUI alone.
>
> an interesting approach. But it will require all the installers to be
> aware of the specific GUI tools (I personally do not know even my own
> distro's GUI tools, as I use command line).


There's no problem in doing that today. One of way to attract new users is
to show them GUI installation and post-installation.

> No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-)
>
> Don't enter the kitchen if you cannot stand the heat ;)


Let them get into the kitchen when they got used to the smell ;)


> > I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around
> > helping people.
>
>
> Should we have lectures on other days?


Lectures can be relevant if they are done, for example, in two tracks -
newbies and techies. Some lectures can be combined for both groups in the
same time.

Regards,

Adir
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Tzafrir Rehan]

>
> One additional point - almost all of the linux adoptation I've seen in the
> Technion works like this: People see it, use it for a course, avoid it for a
> (geometrically distributed) while, then decide to install it (by themselves.
> All of the adopters I've seen are perfectly capable of performing a google
> search for the distribution they've seen, burning an ISO, and hitting "next"
> a couple of times). They seek a guru (or ask on the forums) for some help,
> are given a pointer in the general direction, and are happy. Sometimes they
> come seeking more help for tougher issues (laptop doesn't enter
> suspend-to-RAM properly, cablemodem issues, or they decided to go to a
> bleeding-edge version, broke a few things, and are interested in knowing how
> to fix them without going back to a stable version). I move that
> instaparties, at least in the Technion context, are obsolete.
>

I second that observation. Many people in my semester came to me with
questions about linux (all of them ubuntu). I didn't have to install it
myself for ANY of them, they all figured it out by themselves (the hardest
part in installing ubuntu is managing to click Jerusalem, and not Amman or
Gaza).

There were some, though, that needed help with various post install issues -
wireless cards mostly that don't work properly, how to do this and that,
what cool stuff can I show them.

I say, if anyone is eager to arrange a physical event, make it a support
party. If someone wants to come and get help installing in that event, we
can help them, but the focus of the event should be a wider range of things
that we can help with by being physically there.
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > That's true, but if we want to make them interact with Linux more
> closely,
> > we need to show them the real option that it is installable, and the best
> > way to show them that is to show a real installation, not just a
> > demonstration of a working distro. Showing a working distro is just a
> matter
> > of showing a working KDE/Gnome for that matter... and your lovable update
> > program.
>
>
> The question is whether we should prove this by doing one installation
> in front of their eyes, or actually install it on their computer.


We want to:
1) Show them that it's working with their computer
2) Give them a system that they can use later at home


> The choice of the size of the HD you want to part is the user
> decision. Once (s)he understands that they are asked how much space is
> going to be taken from Windows to Linux, they will be able to figure
> this out on their own (especially as you can tell people once how to
> choose the size). I do not think in any installation I've seen (or
> done) we optimized the size (it was more like "We recommend at least
>  GBs, and you have XXX+1000 spare GBs in windows. I suggest
> +100. You say yes? good", where each of us just picked a random
> number between 1000 and 0 as the extra space).


What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by themselves,
but we'll do it for them.

>
> > The feeling is more personal when it's done in your computer. Needless to
> > say that it's faster (unless you put the whole CD in the main memory,
> > ofcourse).
>
>
> Of course, but if it is just for playing, you won't install. And once
> you wish to commit - you'll install.


"Playing" in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use it
because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their
computers all the time...


> I think we can speak in numbers.
>
> Each year there are way more Linux users in Haifa area than people
> attending the insta-party. Every year there are less installees
> (according to what I've heard two years ago there were less than 10
> installations, the year before there were less than 10, the year
> before less than 15, and the year before - less than 20). It becomes
> so easy or so unwanted...


I think that it was not organized well last times. I even explained it a few
times. The low numbers are the reason for the bad organization, and lessons
were taken. It still is a matter of willing to help, and not talking in
numbers. The people will arrive if it is properly arranged. The installation
can be part of a Linux Day, so more people will arrive. The instaparty must
be linked somehow to a series of lectures for begineers, either as part of a
Welcome to Linux day or as a separate day just for installations and
relevant lectures, as it used to be.

Regards,

Adir
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Ohad Lutzky]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Roi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post
> > install configuration and usage instructions.
>
> I think a good answer to whether these are needed or not is the
> attendance in the last few ones. I haven't been to the last one (where
> Moshik Afia has arrived), but I've been to many before, and the last
> three I've attended were more populated with installers than
> installees. Yes. We are talking about less than 20 installation the
> whole day (or even less).


Agreed.

>
> In case an instaparty does happen:
>
> > I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed
> but
> > aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to
> their
> > ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc..
> most people do not use dial-up these days.
> moreover, if you'll get many people, you won't have time for that.
> If you'll get a few - what's the point in the whole event?


Two more points:
1. Dial-up (and by this I mean DSL and cablemodem) configurations are in
wide use today, and are a prime source of problems (cablemodem especially)
for new users. However, an ordinary instaparty is useless for this, as it
would have a simple router&DHCP-autoconfig based setup which works
out-of-the-box. Moreover, the previous instaparty had no internet access *at
all*. At the very least, a wi-fi router should be present so wireless cards
can be tested. If any help is to be given in an instaparty regarding DSL and
(again, especially) cablemodem connections, such a connection must be
available in the instaparty, or the whole thing is pointless.

> Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen,
> After installation? This should be the deal-maker that leads people to
> install. But they will need to use openoffice as well...


Why not just have a SiL lecture titled "fun stuff in Linux" to show this
stuff off? It does wonders for adoptation (especially glitzy 3D desktop
effects).


> > How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against
> each
> > other? :-)
>
> LAN party!


This goes well with my "hands-on" suggestion.

>
>
> > I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around
> > helping people.
>
> Should we have lectures on other days?


One additional point - almost all of the linux adoptation I've seen in the
Technion works like this: People see it, use it for a course, avoid it for a
(geometrically distributed) while, then decide to install it (by themselves.
All of the adopters I've seen are perfectly capable of performing a google
search for the distribution they've seen, burning an ISO, and hitting "next"
a couple of times). They seek a guru (or ask on the forums) for some help,
are given a pointer in the general direction, and are happy. Sometimes they
come seeking more help for tougher issues (laptop doesn't enter
suspend-to-RAM properly, cablemodem issues, or they decided to go to a
bleeding-edge version, broke a few things, and are interested in knowing how
to fix them without going back to a stable version). I move that
instaparties, at least in the Technion context, are obsolete.

-- 
Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal that
is struck with the difference between what things are and what they ought to
be.
- William Hazlitt

Ohad Lutzky
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Orr Dunkelman]

Hi,

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Roi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post
> install configuration and usage instructions.

I think a good answer to whether these are needed or not is the
attendance in the last few ones. I haven't been to the last one (where
Moshik Afia has arrived), but I've been to many before, and the last
three I've attended were more populated with installers than
installees. Yes. We are talking about less than 20 installation the
whole day (or even less).

In case an instaparty does happen:

> I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed but
> aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to their
> ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc..
most people do not use dial-up these days.
moreover, if you'll get many people, you won't have time for that.
If you'll get a few - what's the point in the whole event?

> I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post install
> configurations using GUI alone.
an interesting approach. But it will require all the installers to be
aware of the specific GUI tools (I personally do not know even my own
distro's GUI tools, as I use command line).

> No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-)
Don't enter the kitchen if you cannot stand the heat ;)

> Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen,
After installation? This should be the deal-maker that leads people to
install. But they will need to use openoffice as well...

> How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against each
> other? :-)

LAN party!

> I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around
> helping people.

Should we have lectures on other days?

-- 
Orr Dunkelman,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.

GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
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[Haifux] URLs re. Ruby

[Ohad Lutzky]

Here are some relevant URLs for anyone interested in Ruby:

The official website, with lots of links and info: http://ruby-lang.org
A fantastic (and thoroughly weird) book about ruby: http://poignantguide.net
Ruby on Rails (a website framework which has brought Ruby to fame):
http://rubyonrails.org

There is also a fantastic book by Pragmatic Programmer on Ruby (called
"Programming Ruby"), known as the Pickaxe book. The 1st edition is freely
[legally] available online, but the 2nd edition is a great improvement over
it.

-- 
Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal that
is struck with the difference between what things are and what they ought to
be.
- William Hazlitt

Ohad Lutzky
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

Hi Guy,

On 9/17/08, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> whatever you do - please be careful with choosing ubuntu - version 8.04
> completely broke sound support for many programs i'm talking about
> usability - not about politics) - and people kept asking questions about
> this issue on the various forums, at least until august (i stopped
> looking, since by that time i managed to somehow work around most of the
> sound issues).
>
> i understood that in fedora 9 (that also integraded soundpulse to some
> extent) - this problem does not exist.


Those are the main things that I checked. Especially for beginners, things
should work out of the box, and we shall never tell them "do this and that,
and now it will work". It's part of the (false) impression that Linux get
because of such things from newbies who just want a new system that works.

As for sound - Mandriva 2009 and Fedora 9 had no problem with any of these.
Wifi, on the other hand, had issues in kernel 2.6.24-2.6.25 when it comes to
Intel cards (especially 3945ABG and 4965AGN which are very common in today's
laptops, especially Dell and Thinkpads). The module had to be reinstalled
with some hacking, and it's not something that you would let newbies to do.
Anyway, those issues were fixed afterwards. Mandriva 2009 includes the
newest kernel (2.6.27-rc5, will be 2.6.27 until it is released) and so does
Fedora 10, so they both don't have those wifi problems. Both wifi and sound
work out of the box.

Regards,

Adir
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

Hi Guy,

On 9/17/08, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> whatever you do - please be careful with choosing ubuntu - version 8.04
> completely broke sound support for many programs i'm talking about
> usability - not about politics) - and people kept asking questions about
> this issue on the various forums, at least until august (i stopped
> looking, since by that time i managed to somehow work around most of the
> sound issues).
>
> i understood that in fedora 9 (that also integraded soundpulse to some
> extent) - this problem does not exist.


Those are the main things that I checked. Especially for beginners, things
should work out of the box, and we shall never tell them "do this and that,
and now it will work". It's part of the (false) impression that Linux get
because of such things from newbies who just want a new system that works.

As for sound - Mandriva 2009 and Fedora 9 had no problem with any of these.
Wifi, on the other hand, had issues in kernel 2.6.24-2.6.25 when it comes to
Intel cards (especially 3945ABG and 4965AGN which are very common in today's
laptops, especially Dell and Thinkpads). The module had to be reinstalled
with some hacking, and it's not something that you would let newbies to do.
Anyway, those issues were fixed afterwards. Mandriva 2009 includes the
newest kernel (2.6.27-rc5, will be 2.6.27 until it is released) and so does
Fedora 10, so they both don't have those wifi problems. Both wifi and sound
work out of the box.

Regards,

Adir
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Dave Roi]

Hi,

I've been using 8.04 at home since it was beta and the only sound issue I
have is with Wine integration.
All the farm stations are using 8.04 and AFAIK they have no sound issues.
There were some issues in the beginning but AFAIK they were all fixed.
Anyways, Wubi alone is reason enough to choose Ubuntu. Messing with people's
partitions is a scary thing.


Dave.


On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 14:47, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> whatever you do - please be careful with choosing ubuntu - version 8.04
> completely broke sound support for many programs i'm talking about usability
> - not about politics) - and people kept asking questions about this issue on
> the various forums, at least until august (i stopped looking, since by that
> time i managed to somehow work around most of the sound issues).
>
> i understood that in fedora 9 (that also integraded soundpulse to some
> extent) - this problem does not exist.
>
> sound is quite an important feature for people's desktops.
>
> --guy
>
> Dave Roi wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post
>> install configuration and usage instructions.
>>
>> I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed but
>> aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to their
>> ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc..
>> I'm sorry but the default install still lacks too much functionality and
>> most newbies aren't aware of their existance.
>>
>> I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post
>> install configurations using GUI alone.
>> No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-)
>> Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen,
>> Elisa the media center, Nexuiz/Urban terror etc, NOT vim and programing.
>> How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against
>> each other? :-)
>>
>> I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around
>> helping people.
>>
>> About the distro choice, I would go the Ubuntu way for the following
>> reasons:
>>
>> 1. That's the name most people have heard (from friends etc..).
>> 2. That's what they see in the faculty.
>> 3. Wubi, The windows Ubuntu Installer is the easiest way to dual boot. No
>> partitioning required.
>>
>> About KDE, Haven't tried the 4.1.1 release yet, but 4.1 wasn't ready for
>> any real use.
>> I'm a gnome guy but that's a matter of personal taste.
>>
>> Hopefully I'll be able to join the instaparty and help, it depends what
>> day/time is decided.
>>
>>
>> Dave.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 14:14, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>>
>>And now answering Adir:
>>
>>On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation
>> Party,
>> > sometime in November.
>> > The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see
>>that it is
>> > not just good in "theory".
>> >
>> > My reasons for the need of Instaparty are:
>> >
>> > 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the
>>lectures
>> > is to let them experience it.
>>Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs,
>>and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event
>>are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines.
>>
>> > 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own
>>computer, with
>> > the help of a veteran installer.
>>I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS
>>partitioning is done quite automatically today.
>>
>> > 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They
>>will be
>> > able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.
>>Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not
>>think that you need "Tana' demesaye" for this anymore.
>>
>>As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this
>>service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the
>>process (and they shouldn't).
>>
>>There is a need for a post-installation support (Q&A session in the
>>W2L would probably make a lot of sense).
>>
>>Regards,
>>Orr.
>>
>>--
>>Orr Dunkelman,
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>
>>"a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
>>heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.
>>
>>GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
>>(This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key
>>corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>)
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[guy keren]

whatever you do - please be careful with choosing ubuntu - version 8.04 
completely broke sound support for many programs i'm talking about 
usability - not about politics) - and people kept asking questions about 
this issue on the various forums, at least until august (i stopped 
looking, since by that time i managed to somehow work around most of the 
sound issues).

i understood that in fedora 9 (that also integraded soundpulse to some 
extent) - this problem does not exist.

sound is quite an important feature for people's desktops.

--guy

Dave Roi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post 
> install configuration and usage instructions.
> 
> I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed 
> but aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections 
> to their ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc..
> I'm sorry but the default install still lacks too much functionality and 
> most newbies aren't aware of their existance.
> 
> I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post 
> install configurations using GUI alone.
> No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-)
> Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen, 
> Elisa the media center, Nexuiz/Urban terror etc, NOT vim and programing.
> How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against 
> each other? :-)
> 
> I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around 
> helping people.
> 
> About the distro choice, I would go the Ubuntu way for the following 
> reasons:
> 
> 1. That's the name most people have heard (from friends etc..).
> 2. That's what they see in the faculty.
> 3. Wubi, The windows Ubuntu Installer is the easiest way to dual boot. 
> No partitioning required.
> 
> About KDE, Haven't tried the 4.1.1 release yet, but 4.1 wasn't ready for 
> any real use.
> I'm a gnome guy but that's a matter of personal taste.
> 
> Hopefully I'll be able to join the instaparty and help, it depends what 
> day/time is decided.
> 
> 
> Dave.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 14:14, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> 
> And now answering Adir:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>  > Hi all,
>  >
>  > I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party,
>  > sometime in November.
>  > The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see
> that it is
>  > not just good in "theory".
>  >
>  > My reasons for the need of Instaparty are:
>  >
>  > 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the
> lectures
>  > is to let them experience it.
> Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs,
> and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event
> are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines.
> 
>  > 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own
> computer, with
>  > the help of a veteran installer.
> I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS
> partitioning is done quite automatically today.
> 
>  > 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They
> will be
>  > able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.
> Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not
> think that you need "Tana' demesaye" for this anymore.
> 
> As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this
> service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the
> process (and they shouldn't).
> 
> There is a need for a post-installation support (Q&A session in the
> W2L would probably make a lot of sense).
> 
> Regards,
> Orr.
> 
> --
> Orr Dunkelman,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> "a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
> heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.
> 
> GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
> (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key
> corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> )
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the
> lectures
> > is to let them experience it.
>
> Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs,
> and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event
> are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines.


That's true, but if we want to make them interact with Linux more closely,
we need to show them the real option that it is installable, and the best
way to show them that is to show a real installation, not just a
demonstration of a working distro. Showing a working distro is just a matter
of showing a working KDE/Gnome for that matter... and your lovable update
program.

> 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer,
> with
> > the help of a veteran installer.
>
> I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS
> partitioning is done quite automatically today.


I don't want to count on the automatic partitioning programs. The
partitioning should be done half-manual - choose the size of the HD you want
to part, and then let it choose to best way to split it. The simple
user/installer must see which part is being splitted. If it's done in a
hurry, you can erase the poor guy his whole HD, which probably contained
Windows in it.

> 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be
> > able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.
>
> Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not
> think that you need "Tana' demesaye" for this anymore.


The feeling is more personal when it's done in your computer. Needless to
say that it's faster (unless you put the whole CD in the main memory,
ofcourse).

As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this
> service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the
> process (and they shouldn't).
>
> There is a need for a post-installation support (Q&A session in the
> W2L would probably make a lot of sense).


People would not need to service if it's not done properly. Every year there
are new people who want Linux or just heard about Linux and want to give it
a try. We need to catch them and show them how it is for real. Talking about
Linux won't be just enough. Not even a LiveCD. Every year it's getting
easier, but we need to show them that so they can tell and show their
friends how easy the installation was, because the installation is mainly
the first impression of Linux.

Regards,

Adir

P.S. I don't see my emails, but only your replies for some reason.
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Dave Roi]

Hi,

I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post
install configuration and usage instructions.

I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed but
aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to their
ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc..
I'm sorry but the default install still lacks too much functionality and
most newbies aren't aware of their existance.

I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post install
configurations using GUI alone.
No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-)
Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen,
Elisa the media center, Nexuiz/Urban terror etc, NOT vim and programing.
How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against each
other? :-)

I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around
helping people.

About the distro choice, I would go the Ubuntu way for the following
reasons:

1. That's the name most people have heard (from friends etc..).
2. That's what they see in the faculty.
3. Wubi, The windows Ubuntu Installer is the easiest way to dual boot. No
partitioning required.

About KDE, Haven't tried the 4.1.1 release yet, but 4.1 wasn't ready for any
real use.
I'm a gnome guy but that's a matter of personal taste.

Hopefully I'll be able to join the instaparty and help, it depends what
day/time is decided.


Dave.


On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 14:14, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> And now answering Adir:
>
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party,
> > sometime in November.
> > The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see that it
> is
> > not just good in "theory".
> >
> > My reasons for the need of Instaparty are:
> >
> > 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the
> lectures
> > is to let them experience it.
> Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs,
> and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event
> are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines.
>
> > 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer,
> with
> > the help of a veteran installer.
> I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS
> partitioning is done quite automatically today.
>
> > 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be
> > able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.
> Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not
> think that you need "Tana' demesaye" for this anymore.
>
> As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this
> service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the
> process (and they shouldn't).
>
> There is a need for a post-installation support (Q&A session in the
> W2L would probably make a lot of sense).
>
> Regards,
> Orr.
>
> --
> Orr Dunkelman,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
> heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.
>
> GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
> (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key
> corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Orr Dunkelman]

And now answering Adir:

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party,
> sometime in November.
> The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see that it is
> not just good in "theory".
>
> My reasons for the need of Instaparty are:
>
> 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the lectures
> is to let them experience it.
Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs,
and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event
are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines.

> 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer, with
> the help of a veteran installer.
I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS
partitioning is done quite automatically today.

> 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be
> able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.
Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not
think that you need "Tana' demesaye" for this anymore.

As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this
service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the
process (and they shouldn't).

There is a need for a post-installation support (Q&A session in the
W2L would probably make a lot of sense).

Regards,
Orr.

-- 
Orr Dunkelman,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.

GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Orr Dunkelman]

Hi Everybody,

I said I'd summarize the W2L-planning meeting, and I shall "abuse"
Adir's point to report the discussions we had:

Concerning W2L - It seems that most people today heard about Linux,
and many of them have even used it for a short while. Moreover, with
today's Linux usability, we do not really need to "introduce" people
to Linux. What is lacking is something in the lines of SiL (staying in
linux). Showing people the stuff that they cannot do using
point-and-click (which today is quite a lot). We can of course name it
W2L if we wish (to ensure that we get the exposure with other LUGs).

So - we are missing suggestions s for the exact topics, and volunteers
to actually prepare and give the talks (note that it does not
necessarily have to be the same).

A statement which seemed to be agreed on all the present people, was
that it seems that today there is no need for an InstaParty, as
installation, and even partitioning is not as complex as it used to be
(or more precisely, they are plain easy).

An idea which we still need to explore is the suggestion by Ohad of
having "practical" hand-on sessions as part of the lectures (maybe
courtesy of the SSDL lab?), where people could sit down and follow the
lecturer.

Best regards,
Orr.

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party,
> sometime in November.
> The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see that it is
> not just good in "theory".
>
> My reasons for the need of Instaparty are:
>
> 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the lectures
> is to let them experience it.
> 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer, with
> the help of a veteran installer.
> 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be
> able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.
>
> I was thinking about a friendly distrbution for beginners, probably Mandriva
> 2009 which is supposed to be released in October (currently in RC1 and
> working perfectly) or Fedora 10, if it is released on time. They both work
> great and most of all - clear from wifi problems and works great with KDE
> 4.1.1. I find those distributions very easy to install, including the
> friendly partitioning and friendly use that both distributions have.
>
> I would like to hear your opinion about it. I understood that there was
> supposed to be some discussion about it on Monday, but I couldn't arrive.
>
> Regards,
>
> Adir
>
>
>
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>



-- 
Orr Dunkelman,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.

GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
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[Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[Adir Abraham]

Hi all,

I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party,
sometime in November.
The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see that it is
not just good in "theory".

My reasons for the need of Instaparty are:

1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the lectures
is to let them experience it.
2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer, with
the help of a veteran installer.
3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be
able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.

I was thinking about a friendly distrbution for beginners, probably Mandriva
2009 which is supposed to be released in October (currently in RC1 and
working perfectly) or Fedora 10, if it is released on time. They both work
great and most of all - clear from wifi problems and works great with KDE
4.1.1. I find those distributions very easy to install, including the
friendly partitioning and friendly use that both distributions have.

I would like to hear your opinion about it. I understood that there was
supposed to be some discussion about it on Monday, but I couldn't arrive.

Regards,

Adir
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Re: [Haifux] SSD and linux

[Muli Ben-Yehuda]

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 12:31:09PM +0300, Doron Zuckerman wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have a question regarding the linux kernel (for those of you who are
> familiar with it).
> 
> I'm looking for a way to add a change to the linux kernel in order to check
> if I can make it more compatible with my Asus EEE-PC.
> I would like to change the kernel in such way that it will not do a context
> switch every time there is a page fault
> and will wait for the required page to be brought from the SSD (Solid State
> Drive), then continue as usual.

We context switch because the task (thread) cannot continue working
until the page is paged in from the disk. If we don't context switch,
and the thread cannot continue running until the page fault is
resolved, what will the OS do in the meantime?

Note that even though the EEE has an SSD drive, it's still several
orders of magnitude slower than the time the context switch takes.

Cheers,
Muli
-- 
Workshop on I/O Virtualization (WIOV '08)
Co-located with OSDI '08, Dec 2008, San Diego, CA
http://www.usenix.org/wiov08
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