Re: [Haifux] The Bash vulnerability (shellshock)

[guy keren]

On 09/26/2014 12:30 PM, Eli Billauer wrote:

env x='() { :;}; echo vulnerable' bash -c 'echo This is a test'


you're too late - there's a (partial?) fix being distributed around...

--guy
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Re: [Haifux] planning our 15th anniversary?

[guy keren]

i can do that, but will that be interesting enough for people? :0



On 08/04/2014 12:25 AM, Eli Billauer wrote:

Hi,

In fact, it so happens that the "vacation slot" is almost exactly 15
years since the first meeting. So it's kinda tempting to set a meeting
there.

And I suggest rerunning lecture #1. Same speaker, same slides. Let's see
if and how things have changed. ;)

Eli

On 03/08/14 20:47, guy keren wrote:


in two-weeks time, haifux will be 15 years old, and i think we should
celebrate that.

anyone has a good idea they'd like to propose (besides bringing food
or drinks to the normal meeting)?

--guy
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[Haifux] planning our 15th anniversary?

[guy keren]

in two-weeks time, haifux will be 15 years old, and i think we should 
celebrate that.


anyone has a good idea they'd like to propose (besides bringing food or 
drinks to the normal meeting)?


--guy
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[Haifux] off-topic - oron peled - can you contact me please? [EOM]

[guy keren]

sorry for the noise,
--guy
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Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX LECTURE] Introduction to Flash Memory -- Leon Romanovsky

[guy keren]

the site is not meant for collaboration, and as such - does not need 
more engineering.


[please don't bring your trolling here]

--guy

On 01/07/2013 10:16 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Hi Orna,

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 20:52:10 +0200
Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda  wrote:


It is room 6. Shlomi, or anyone else, if you can edit the Hebrew page I
will be happy to update it. I lost the ability to do that due to encoding
problems.



Thanks for the info.

I see the site's code is mentioned in http://www.haifux.org/about.html . Is
the self-contained source available inside a version control system? If not,
then Haifux should definitely use one, see:

* http://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/#version_control

I don't want to start a flamewar here, but I think that there's a large
general consensus among most open source developers (and a large number of
clueful ones working on non open source software) that using version control
is a good idea, and it will facilitate collaborating on the Haifux site.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Shlomi Fish  wrote:


Hi Eli,

DeCCing Linux-IL,

On Sat, 05 Jan 2013 17:55:25 +0200
Eli Billauer  wrote:


On Monday, January 7th at 18:30, Haifux will gather to hear a talk by
Leon Romanovsky:

  Introduction to Flash Memory

Abstract

In this lecture we will discuss flash memory. We will go through
history, different types and physics. We will talk about current
limitations of flash. This lecture will help us to understand, WHY we
need new flash friendly file system.

=

We meet in Taub building, room 6. For instructions see:
http://www.haifux.org/where.html



This page: http://www.haifux.org/where.html - still says

<>

Then it says Room 6. What is the correct room? A Linux FOSS enthusiast who
came
to hear the talk called me on my phone now twice, and I used the site as a
reference and may have initially misled him (though not by much).

Regards,

 Shlomi Fish

--
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
Chuck Norris/etc. Facts - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/

CPAN thrives *because* of the unfettered uploading of shit, not in spite
of it.
 — Andy Lester

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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[Haifux] my attempt for a new endeavour: debugging2day - Linux/C/C++-centric debugging methodologies online E-zine

[guy keren]

for want of a shorter name ;)

i started this last year, then got a little lazy - and now that the 
world didn't come to an end, decided to give it a second go - and this 
time, even tell people about this :0



http://debugging2day.wordpress.com/

if anyone has comments, or has ideas or requests for article topics 
(assuming they are within my grasp) - feel free to share.


thanks,
--guy
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Re: [Haifux] Is the risk real? (Was: New mail icon for Thunderbird over Gnome)

[guy keren]

at least in the past - the risk was real.

when i first connected my computer to the internet via ADSL, and set up 
firewall rules - i was surprised to see that i get many (hundreads) of 
failed network connections from around the world.


what people do, is run software that scans complete address (IP) ranges, 
and attempt to find exploitable services on them.


the solution, on my part, was to close down everything i could at the 
firewall level, and try to keep the open services (e.g. the kernel 
itself, ssh server, etc) updated. keeping things updated was annoying 
with redhat - specifically the distribution updates - and is one of the 
reasons i switched to ubuntu. i tend to keep to the LTS (long term 
support - 3 years) versions of ubuntu - and try to be in long delay 
after the latest distributions - after having the diss-pleasure of 
upgrading too early to 8.04 (or something).


--guy

On 05/14/2012 12:45 AM, Eli Billauer wrote:

Hi,

Since my not-so-updated software versions became an issue in itself
(somehow I always get that) I wondered: Leave alone the unpleasant
feeling of knowing your computer *could* be exploited, are there any
real cases of attacks against personal, non-server Linux machines? The
need to protect a server or a shared machine is obvious. But when it
comes to a personal computer, is there any real life justification to be
anything else than completely indifferent to those risks? Or can we in
fact take a kibbutz approach of leaving the door open, knowing that we
may invite someone to break in, but that doesn't really happen?

This is not a question about what can happen, but what really does.

And just to wrap up the original subject: I was reluctant to try
mail-notification, because my mail filters move around the mails as they
arrive. So I suspected things would get messy using a tool that
apparently polls the mail box files directly.

Anyhow, my solution ended up to be the Gnome Integration add on. I also
installed Mail Tweak, which among others allowed me to set HTML + Plain
text as the default outgoing mail format.

Eli


On 05/13/2012 08:40 PM, Oron Peled wrote:

On Sunday, 13 בMay 2012 19:22:20 Eli Billauer wrote:


Hello all,
I've finally started working with Thunderbird under Linux (FC12, with


Thunderbird 3.0.7). The old settings were migrated perfectly,

If your "new" one is 3.0.7, I am afraid to ask what was the old ;-)

$ rpm -q thunderbird
thunderbird-11.0.1-1.fc15.i686

As you can see I use a pretty old Fedora (F15, plan to upgrade directly
to F17, before F15 is EOL). Still, using a network-facing application
which did not get any security updates for several years, is...
(ok, let's call it brave, not to be offensive...)



and all is working fine. Well, there's a thing I miss.
In Windows, there used to be an icon when new mail has arrived. This icon


doesn't show up on Linux.

Obviously in Linux its a separate application (which is hopefully slimmer,
since it runs all the time).

IIRC, Gnome used to have a nice applet called "mail-notification":
   http://www.nongnu.org/mailnotify
This supported multiple accounts/mailboxes/protocols, etc.

I believe you can find it pre-packaged even for your pre-historic Fedora.

Cheers,






--
Web:http://www.billauer.co.il



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[Haifux] lecture suggestion: "disk" storage media - state of the art in the enterprise world

[guy keren]

this is a:

1. very detailed-oriented talk.

2. no prior knowledge required.

3. not specific to linux.

4. not useful for home users - it all concentrates on enterprise systems.

5. second-hand knowledge (i.e. a lot of "someone told me" and "i heard
that..." claims will be involved).

6. not going to talk about the internals of SSDs - but rather on their
machine interfaces.

7. will cover hard disks, SSDs (Solid-State Disks) and the way they
are/will be used in enterprise computing environments.

if there's interest - it'll take me a few weeks to prepare.

--guy
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Re: [Haifux] Running 32 bit applications (Firefox?) on 64 bit machines

[guy keren]

because this is progress - to move to a 64-bit operating system, and
running all the applications in 64-bit mode.

mixing between 32-bit and 64-bit is not such a good idea.

and why do you think firefox doesn't get above 1GB of RAM?

on my system it currently takes 1.2GB of virtual memory (with 24 tabs
open). not that it'll have a problem to do this in 32-bit mode (where it
can use close to 3GB of virtual memory).

--guy

On Sat, 2011-08-20 at 19:32 +0300, Eli Billauer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> It has suddenly hit me, that there's no apparent reason to run most 
> executables as 64 bits on a x86_64 machine. I mean, what for? It's not 
> like I expect Firefox to address 1 GB of RAM. If it does, let it crash. 
> On the other hand, plugins and other binaries for 64 bits is a headache. 
> Flash player tops the list, I suppose.
> 
> 
> So it really makes me wonder: Why are the preinstalled binaries on a 64 
> bit machine, well, 64 bit executables? I run a 64 bit machine because I 
> want the *overall* RAM to exceed 4 GB, but except for virtual machines, 
> I don't expect any application to have problems with the 32 bit limitation.
> 
> 
> Insights?
> 
> 
>   Eli
> 
> 
> P.S. Just changed my Firefox to 32 bits. Had to install some libraries 
> manually to get Flash Player going: yum install libpk-gtk-module.so 
> libcanberra-gtk-module.so libcurl.i686 (thanks goes to strace as usual).
> 


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Re: [Haifux] Implementing read() like UNIX guys like it

[guy keren]

Hi Eli,

i'm afraid you're trying to solve the "holy grail" of non-local files.
you can't hold the pole on both sides.

first - it does not seem that you have a notion of "end of file" for
your input - is there? the only time when read is allowed to return 0,
is when it reached end of file (for a file), or got a connection close
(for a socket or a pipe).

so you first need to decide what constitutes an end of file with your
device.

Now, if you decide that your read will not block indefinitely (which is
against the posix definition, as far as i know) - you'll have a problem
with the following scenario:

the user calls "read", you have some data so you read what you have and
return it to the user.

the user does something with the data, then calls "read" again. there is
no data to receive - so you decide to fail with -EAGAIN. however, the
user did not set the file descriptor to non-blocking mode, so the user
does not expect to get this error code - and thus the user's code may
fail. not good.

so the logical thing will be:

if the user calls "read" and there is data - return what you have to the
user without blocking. if the user calls "read" and there's no data -
block until there is some data - unless the user explicitly set the file
descriptor to non-blocking mode.

the most you can do is write the documentation for your driver, so the
users will know what to expect, and give them code examples to use.

there is another set of questions:

1. is there some kind of protocol in which the data arrives from this
FIFO, or is it just an unrelated stream of octets?

   in the former case - you can return from read() when you've read a 
   "full message".

   in the later case - if a user will use fgets() - the user is a 
   complete fool - since fgets expects to read until end-of-line (and 
   it blocks until this happens).

2. if question 1 is irrelevant - what kind of data does the user get
from this FIFO? does the user control the data that is written into the
FIFO from the hardware - or is it completely not in the user's control?

--guy

On Fri, 2011-04-22 at 16:29 +0300, Eli Billauer wrote:
> Hi Muli,
> 
> 
> I'll answer the your last question first: What I'm doing is basically a 
> general-purpose connection between a hardware FIFO within an FPGA and a 
> device file in Linux, with PCI Express as the data transport. That's why 
> I don't know if data will be coming constantly or in small drops into 
> the FIFO. I don't know if the user wants to use fread() or similar to 
> read chunks, or fgets()/fscanf() to get records of data.
> 
> 
> And most of all: I want this to work out of the box, even if the 
> programmer and/or user is, how shall I put it, of the less qualified 
> type. The less pitfalls, the better.
> 
> 
> But it's more like a socket, anyhow. Or a pipe.
> 
> 
> And I know about O_NONBLOCK, of course, and I'm going to support it. But 
> that doesn't solve the "less qualified" issue. And still, we're left 
> with the question of whether an O_NONBLOCK call should return zero or 
> some bytes of data when it can't fulfill the entire request. I mean, 
> strictly speaking, O_NONBLOCK only tells the driver not to block, but it 
> doesn't say "give me what you have". Even though I would make the latter 
> interpretation.
> 
> 
>Eli
> 
> 
> Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:31:02PM +0300, Eli Billauer wrote:
> >   
> > There are a couple of ways you could look at it. First, ask yourself
> > is the package user more likely to treat this as a file or a socket?
> > And if a file, is it a structured file or a certain size, or is it a
> > file whose contents are not known in advance? Then make your read
> > behave the same way a read on such a file or socket would behave. I
> > don't like this option, personally, because it makes assumptions about
> > the user.
> >
> > The second way is to just support both modes of operation. Check if
> > you were opened with O_NONBLOCK. If yes, don't ever block -- you are
> > allowed to return -EAGAIN if you would otherwise block. If you were
> > not opened with O_NONBLOCK, then blocking is allowed, and you can wait
> > until you have a full quantum of data to return at once.
> >
> > Just out of curiosity -- what does the hardware do?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Muli
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> 


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Re: [Haifux] some additions and eratta to today's lecture

[guy keren]

On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 14:26 +0200, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011, guy keren wrote about "[Haifux] some additions and 
> eratta to today's lecture":
> > 
> > 1. etzion asked about controlling the age of dirty pages before pdflush 
> >flushes them - the default value is 30 seconds, and can be seen by:
> > 
> > cat /proc/sys/vm/dirty_expire_centisecs
> > 
> > (the time there is in milli-seconds). it can be changed by echoing
> > the desired time into that file, e.g. to change it to 40 seconds:
> > 
> >  echo 40 > /proc/sys/vm/dirty_expire_centisecs
> 
> Would I be wrong to assume that since the file name is "centisecs", it is
> indeed centisecs (1/100th of a second), neither milli-seconds nor seconds
> as you wrote above?

err.. you're right.

the default value is '3000', which amounts to 30 seconds,
so to set it to 40 seconds - one should echo "4000" into that file.

--guy

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Re: [Haifux] some additions and eratta to today's lecture

[guy keren]

someone reminded me about the "small trail through the linux kernel"
link i mentioned. it is:

http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/vfs/trail.html

note that it is from 2001 and relates to kernel 2.4 (or even older) -
but the general has not completely changed.

you can find a more up-to-date info about this in the book "the linux
kernel, 3rd edition" - in the VFS chapter.

--guy

On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 01:35 +0200, guy keren wrote:
> 1. etzion asked about controlling the age of dirty pages before pdflush 
>flushes them - the default value is 30 seconds, and can be seen by:
> 
> cat /proc/sys/vm/dirty_expire_centisecs
> 
> (the time there is in milli-seconds). it can be changed by echoing
> the desired time into that file, e.g. to change it to 40 seconds:
> 
>  echo 40 > /proc/sys/vm/dirty_expire_centisecs
> 
> this parameter (and some other pdflush-related parameters) is described
> in the link i mentioned during the meeting today - that talks about
> configuring pdflush for write-intensive workloads:
> 
> http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/content/linux-pdflush.htm
> 
> 2. if you read the above link - you'll see that in case there are too
> many dirty pages - the writing to disk is done directly by processes
> calling the write() system call (if you'll check the stack trace -
> you'll see these processes waiting for the page transfer to complete).
> this is done to serve as a flow-control mechanism, that slows down the
> processes that fill up the dirty cache.
> 
> 3. regarding whether the write system call copied the data directly into
> the page-cache, or into a temporary buffer - it indeed copies the data
> directly into the page-cache. the generic write() system call passes
> control to the file-system's code - and this eventually allocates the
> pages, then maps the page with the user-data into the kernel's address
> space, and copy the data into the page-cache's page. note: i checked
> this for the ext3 file-system in kernel 2.6.18 - but the code it uses
> resides in generic kernel code - so i think other file-systems will
> behave the same.
> 
> 4. regarding the output of iostat -x:
> 
> the 'wrqm/s' (write requests merged per-second) field, shows the
> number of write requests that were merged into existing requests by the
> elevator. i.e. if 3 requests were merged together, '2' will be added to
> this counter (the first of these requests was not merged. the other two
> were merged into the first). this, at least according to the code of
> kernel 2.6.18
> 
> 
> if i forgot some question, or you have a question about what we covered
> today - please shout!
> 
> --guy
> 
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[Haifux] some additions and eratta to today's lecture

[guy keren]

1. etzion asked about controlling the age of dirty pages before pdflush 
   flushes them - the default value is 30 seconds, and can be seen by:

cat /proc/sys/vm/dirty_expire_centisecs

(the time there is in milli-seconds). it can be changed by echoing
the desired time into that file, e.g. to change it to 40 seconds:

 echo 40 > /proc/sys/vm/dirty_expire_centisecs

this parameter (and some other pdflush-related parameters) is described
in the link i mentioned during the meeting today - that talks about
configuring pdflush for write-intensive workloads:

http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/content/linux-pdflush.htm

2. if you read the above link - you'll see that in case there are too
many dirty pages - the writing to disk is done directly by processes
calling the write() system call (if you'll check the stack trace -
you'll see these processes waiting for the page transfer to complete).
this is done to serve as a flow-control mechanism, that slows down the
processes that fill up the dirty cache.

3. regarding whether the write system call copied the data directly into
the page-cache, or into a temporary buffer - it indeed copies the data
directly into the page-cache. the generic write() system call passes
control to the file-system's code - and this eventually allocates the
pages, then maps the page with the user-data into the kernel's address
space, and copy the data into the page-cache's page. note: i checked
this for the ext3 file-system in kernel 2.6.18 - but the code it uses
resides in generic kernel code - so i think other file-systems will
behave the same.

4. regarding the output of iostat -x:

the 'wrqm/s' (write requests merged per-second) field, shows the
number of write requests that were merged into existing requests by the
elevator. i.e. if 3 requests were merged together, '2' will be added to
this counter (the first of these requests was not merged. the other two
were merged into the first). this, at least according to the code of
kernel 2.6.18


if i forgot some question, or you have a question about what we covered
today - please shout!

--guy

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Re: [Haifux] CPU usage percentage doesn't add up

[guy keren]

tell him, when running 'top', to press '1' (so he'll see the CPU usage
percentage for each core separately), and then to press 's1' - so the
screen will refresh every second, instead of every 3 seconds.

this might change what he sees.

another thing - what does he call "CPU usage"? 'top' separate this into
several types - user space usage, system (kernel code) usage, I/O wait
time (during which the CPU is in fact not doing anything), and time to
handle hardware and software interrupts.

the idle time is 100% minus all the values mentioned above.

i am not sure which of these values are accumulated in the per-process
CPU usage.

--guy



On Fri, 2011-02-25 at 16:37 +0200, Ohad Lutzky wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> 
> A peer of mine is developing a multi-platform C++ application, and
> would like to test the CPU usage difference of the application between
> Windows and Linux. However, running `top` shows him that his single
> process is using 20% CPU, whereas the total CPU usage is only 0.5%-2%.
> This is a quad-core machine, so even dividing the 20% by 4 will give
> 5%, which is still far too high. Windows gives him a satisfactory
> measurement of this statistic. Can anyone here explain why this
> happens?
> 
> -- 
> Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only
> animal that is struck with the difference between what things are and
> what they ought to be.
>  - William Hazlitt
> 
> Ohad Lutzky
> 
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Re: [Haifux] Lecture about PCI?

[guy keren]

"me too".

are you sure a single lecture will suffice for these two topics (i.e.
both hardware coverage, and PCI drivers coverage)? also, since the
drivers coverage will probably assume basic knowledge of writing
drivers, while the hardware thing can be interesting to
non-kernel-programmers as well - it may be logical to split this in two.

--guy

On Tue, 2011-02-15 at 23:33 +0200, Eli Billauer wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> 
> These days I'm working on making a PCI Express interface in hardware 
> (FPGA) and writing a Linux driver for it. When I'll be done with that, I 
> suppose I'll know a thing or two about the PCI bus.
> 
> 
> Now, not that it's something to happen in the near future, but I just 
> wondered: What's the level of interest in a lecture about PCI (or more 
> like PCI Express?). I'm talking about the hardware (and protocol) 
> principles of a PCI vs PCIe buses (which are completely different), a 
> bird's view on the configuration of a PCI device ("plug and play", done 
> by BIOS for most of us), then a bit about bus mastering and DMA, and 
> wrap it all up with describing the anatomy of a Linux PCI driver. Just 
> so one knows what it's trying to accomplish when reading the source. Ah, 
> and we also have IRQ's and MSI's. A lot of fun, in short.
> 
> 
> This is a pretty heavy lecture to prepare, but if I'll see you guys here 
> getting crazy about the idea, I'll consider it. :)
> 
> 
>Eli
> 


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Re: [Haifux] Getting mouse buttons to work

[guy keren]

perhaps try to switch to a runlevel that does not have X window running.
it could be that the X window code is competing for these events - and
when you make tests, you don't want to have that.

--guy


On Tue, 2011-02-15 at 11:55 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:19, Yedidyah Bar-David
>  wrote:
> > I have no idea about the specific mouse or issue, but other places you
> > can check are:
> >
> > 1. Outside of X, do
> > od -tx1 /dev/input/mice
> > then press various buttons and see what happens.
> >
> 
> Interesting approach. In fact, even buttons that _do_ work did not
> reliably give any output. However, I could get absolutely zero output
> from the buttons in question.
> 
> 
> > 2. Try playing with acpi/acpid. E.g., from the examples of acpid
> > - look at /usr/share/doc/acpid/examples/default{,.sh}
> > (or at least that's where they are on my laptop - Debian Lenny).
> > I personally managed to make "Fn F7" move between internal/external
> > monitor by playing with it and an example I once found on google -
> > I think it was this one:
> > http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Sample_Fn-F7_script
> >
> > I have no idea if you can get acpi events from "normal" keys (not Fn)
> > and did not try this (yet?).
> >
> 
> Thanks, but I don't see how I could adapt that to a mouse. In any
> case, it would have to be after I get a scancode from the device
> buttons.
> 


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Re: [Haifux] FOSS alternatives to an Access-based organizational software solution

[guy keren]

as a non-expert in this area, i will try to give you two cents and a 
penny ;)


1. regarding scaling the existing solution - i guess that switching the 
back-end to using SQL server will make it scale better. further, it 
might be possible to make a crude test of this without changing the 
entire application - i think i remember that access can use SQL server 
as a backend. there used to be a free version of SQL server (that was 
limited to 10 users) - which may be used in such a "proof of concept" 
test. it used to be called MSDE. these days it is simply the "express 
edition" of sql server 2005 or sql server 2008. if you live with the 
limitations it imposes - you might be able to use the free version also 
in production:


http://www.microsoft.com/express/Database/

2. did you verify that you don't need to simply upgrade the server 
hardware? or do you also see the slow down on the client machines?


3. i imagine that if you build such a thing today, making it web-based 
will make more sense then writing a full-fledged application client. 
especially if you'll use a linux back-end - since you'll want the 
clients to work on windows. with today's technology, web applications 
can give you a good frontend (with use of javascript and ajax) to show 
data records (e.g. look at google's online spreadsheet application). 
of-course, it'll be a good idea to define the desired interface first, 
and see how much data you want to display at any given time, and make a 
small proof of concept to see that the javascript code in the browser 
handles it well (javascript is somewhat slow - and i'm not sure if it'll 
work to show thousands of records on a single screen - so you need to 
figure out if you need to be able to do this on the client - or whether 
viewing by "screens" (show first 100, show next 100, etc.) will be good 
for you when showing query results.


4. i would suggest that you subscribe to the linux-il mailing list - 
there are many more people there, and in particular - people that work 
with LAMP for their living - they are likely to be able to give you 
better and more specific advice:


http://www.hamakor.org.il/mailing-lists/linux-il.html

keep in mind that some of them are consultants and developers that 
provide the development services you are looking for - so they can help 
you better (and on the other hand - they may be biased towards their 
preferred solutions).


--guy

Eyal Rozenberg wrote:


Hello all,

I would like some advice regarding a possible upgrade of an 
organizational software application we use at the Graduate Student 
Organization.


In fact, while initially what I need is advice and directions, we may 
soon be interested in contracting a single developer or a (small?) 
development company to entirely replace our existing system with 
something nice and FOSSy.


To describe things briefly, our system:

- Keeps grad student personal data.
- Records payments and debts.
- Communicates directly or via imported/exported data files with some 
Technion and non-Technion systems: The listserv, ANAM, the student 
tuition people etc.
- Records non-financial operations such as collecting a gift, 
joining/leaving the organization etc.
- Is used simultaneously by more than one person on a network (although 
it is extremely rare for two people to try to add or modify db records 
at the same time)


The number of people handled by the system at any given time can range 
upto 5,000 (let's make it 10,000 to be on the safe side), and if we keep 
info about people active in the past and don't only maintain a snapshot 
of the present, then we need to be able to handle, say, 10,000 as a real 
estimate for the next several years and 30,000 to be on the safe side. 
There isn't any heavy calculation going on, it's all pretty routine and 
mundane.


Before talking about our currently operating solution, here are some 
questions:


Q1: What software platforms/toolkits/etc. would you recommend for this 
kind of a system? Be specific, not "make it LAMP-based".
Q2: Do you know of specific software apps, already written, which cover 
this functionality and may be easily adapted to our needs (or would not 
need any adapting)?
Q3: Do you know people/organizations who run such systems with FOSS 
solutions, and would be willing to share their experiences?


Our system as you may probably have guessed is based on MS Access, with 
a Frontend-Backend split to ease multi-user use. While it is working 
well enough today, it is an endless patch-work, not well documented, 
without proper specs for anything, and showing signs of aging with every 
operation becoming slower as features are added and the number of people 
grows. There are also some foundational architectural assumptions which 
we want to change (e.g. the present snapshot vs. full history I 
mentioned above).


Q4: Not a list-relevant question, but are more recent versions of 
Access, or Access + a full-blown SQL server, options which allow better

Re: [Haifux] Login console freezes: Eli's weekly riddle

[guy keren]

why not strace sshd and find what it's doing?

log into the machine, then run a separate sshd under an alternate port , 
and under 'strace -f -o  -tt -T', then see what strace shows 
you it is doing, and which operations are taking a long time (-tt gives 
a timestamp for each syscall invocation, -T gives the time a syscall 
invocation took to complete).

--guy


Eli Billauer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> PAM did indeed cross my mind as a suspect. Unfortunately, I have no 
> /var/log/auth* logfiles. As a matter of fact, I don't have any log 
> messages related to authentication. In my very old Redhat 7.3, I had 
> pam_unix messages in /var/log/messages telling me who has changed user 
> ID. On Fedora 12, nothing is mentioned about becoming root in 
> /var/log/messages, and I can't see any directory or file in /var/log 
> that seems to contain that information. Maybe under the audit directory, 
> but the files there are not really human readable.
> 
> 
> Any idea of where my authenticate mechanism keeps its logs?
> 
> 
> And why a kernel upgrade would have any effect?
> 
> 
> In the past, I clearly recall just upgrading my kernel and all was 
> fine. Where are those days?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>Eli
> 
> 
> Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> 
>>>  
>> If both ssh and the graphical logins are slow, I would suspect PAM. 
>> Try ssh public key authentication and see what happens (I think that 
>> one bypasses pam). Also, see what /var/log/auth* have to say.
>>
>> Shachar
>>
> 
> 

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Re: [Haifux] Router question

[guy keren]

you should have a traceroute-line utility that runs on TCP ports of your 
choice.

for example, tcptraceroute.

see an explanation here:

http://christophe.vandeplas.com/2007/11/04/using-traceroute-icmp-and-tcp

--guy

Ohad Lutzky wrote:
> traceroute is ICMP. I'm having trouble with specific ports on TCP.
> 
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Dave Roi  > wrote:
> 
> Did you try running traceroute to the pgp server or android market
> server?
> See how many hops it does go and see in which one it gets stuck.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 19:36, Ohad Lutzky  > wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a Linksys DSL-2760u router/DSL modem, using a Wow (Bezeq)
> connection to the Bezeq International ISP. It seems that various
> outgoing ports are blocked - HTTP, HTTPS, bittorrent and SSH
> work well enough, but - for example - I can't download Android
> apps from the Market. Easier to test, I can't download PGP
> public keys. For example:
> 
> gpg -v -v --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net 
> --recv F120156012B83718
> gpg: requesting key 12B83718 from hkp server subkeys.pgp.net
> 
> 
> This hangs indefinitely. So does this:
> telnet subkeys.pgp.net  11371
> Trying 195.113.19.83...
> 
> The same occurs for other keyservers, git-protocol, and various
> other "unconventional" high-port usage. I've gone over the
> router settings, disabled its firewall (but not NAT, which I
> need), added my machine to the DMZ (this actually seems to help,
> sometimes, for git - and even then, only once), tried port
> triggering... I can't get a consistent result.
> 
> I should note that this issue only exists for *outgoing* ports.
> I have no problem mapping *incoming* ports (such as my openssh
> server or bittorrent web interface).
> 
> -- 
> Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only
> animal that is struck with the difference between what things
> are and what they ought to be.
>  - William Hazlitt
> 
> Ohad Lutzky
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal 
> that is struck with the difference between what things are and what they 
> ought to be.
>  - William Hazlitt
> 
> Ohad Lutzky
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] Orientation Day at the Technion

[guy keren]

are we talking about a replay of "staying in linux", or something similar?

--guy

Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Summary of the day:
> 
> There was no need to stand in the sun - there are huge trees!
> Five people manned the stand at the peak hour (Boaz, Eli, Evgeny, me and 
> two-month-old Ze'ev, who would not have stayed in the sun for an hour). 
> Out of about 200 flyers, 10 were left when guided groups stopped touring 
> (around 14:30).
> We had some luck with CS, EE and IE groups. We focused on those groups, 
> as there was a burst (a rush hour). Furthermore, groups came by 
> faculties, more or less, as the talk in each faculty ended at a 
> different time.
> We were located on the promenade at first, then moved nearer to the ASAT 
> building. On hind sight, we should have positioned ourselves first at 
> Taub, then moved to ASAT building.
> 
> The people who are most likely to show up, in my opinion, are those who 
> already knew what Linux is, and now found out about the club. However, 
> we must remember that those people have had not even one CS semester, so 
> maybe it will be better if the upcoming talk was a talk which does not 
> require any background, and is yet a technical talk (newcomers do not 
> need persuasion - they need an intro to the club).
> 
> Orna
> 
> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:26 PM, boazg  > wrote:
> 
> i can stand in the sun for an hour or two. 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:08, Orr Dunkelman
> mailto:orr.dunkel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> The orientation day will take place this Thursday, between
> 10:00-15:00, where there is a real need between 12:00-15:00.
> 
> We need two types of volunteers:
> 1. Producing the flyers - design something quick and dirty (maybe
> based on W2L or such), and then duplicating them.
> 
> We have very little time, so if you think you can duplicate 2,000
> flyers (or some of them), please let me know how many you can take
> care of, and how the ones you have can be taken from you.
> 
> If you design one - please keep in mind that it may be wise to
> have a
> flyer which can be used next orientation day, by the GSO, etc.
> 
> In other words: plain simple, come to haifux, home of Linux and FOSS
> in Haifa, or something like that (if no one will raise their
> hands by
> tomorrow evening, I will be forced to design one such myself using
> open office!).
> 
> 2. Standing in the sun for as long as you can (whenever you can) and
> give these flyers away, and talk people into attending haifux
> meetings.
> 
> Starting time 11:30. The longer the better. However, even if you
> cannot stand there for an hour, even half an hour, 15 minutes,
> or even
> 5, would be great.
> 
> For volunteers: please try to find in your closet a nice (i.e.,
> still
> wearable, no holes, not 10 sizes too large/small) Haifux-related
> T-shirt.
> 
> And unfortunately, we have to do this quickly, so please raise your
> hands as fast as you can :)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> --
> Orr Dunkelman,
> orr.dunkel...@gmail.com 
> 
> GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3  2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
> (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key
> corresponds to o...@vipe.technion.ac.il
> )
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda.
> http://ladypine.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] טרמפ למפגש בטכניו ן מזכרון יעקב

[guy keren]

i am not from zichron (and i'm not sure there are people from there 
coming to haifux meetings) - but it might help if you'll give more 
details of the car required (i.e. enough space to put your wheel chair 
in, i suppose?).

by the way - anyone knows if taub building is properly accesible without 
hassles? i imagine it has to be - but i remember stairs around the 
building..

--guy

Eyal Massad wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> I'm a disabled person (in a wheel chair) living in Z. Yaakov
> and am interested in coming to Haifux lectures.
> Is there anyone who can help me with a ride?
> Thanks,
> Eyal
> 
> -- 
> Eyal MASSAD
> Mobile: +972-52-6880709
> Home: +972-4-6392590
> ---
> Who Moved My Step Stool
> show web site:
> www.whomovedmystepstool.com 
> ---
> אתר ההצגה מי הזיז את השרפרף שלי
> www.shrafraf.co.il 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] Where were the organizers?

[guy keren]

hi orr,

it will be a good idea to add this info to lecture announcements - in 
case this happens again in the future - as well of adding it to 
haifux.org (not just on haifux - people won't necessarily remember that 
it is written there when this problem happens again in a year from now).

thanks,
--guy

Orr Dunkelman wrote:
> Dear All,
> 
> For future reference:
> In case the desk with the projector equipment is locked, please go to
> the second floor, to room 203 (Alex Ratinzki's room), and ask Moti
> (who sits there) to open the projector at room 6.
> 
> As for "the organizers", we have other commitments, and we cannot
> arrive to all meetings, but usually there is at least one person in
> the audience who has the key (or knows Moti).
> 
> As for your talk, we will exchange phone numbers offlist.
> 
> Best regards,
> Orr.
> 
> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 9:14 PM, cool-RR  wrote:
>> Hey everyone, and especially the administrators,
>> I was just at Roy's talk at Haifux. None of the group's organizers came-- We
>> had no one to unlock the projector for us. Since we couldn't use the
>> projector, we all had to sit huddled in front of Roy's laptop while he gave
>> the talk.
>> Fortunately the lecture was interesting and I enjoyed it, despite of the
>> conditions. But this is pretty unprofessional. I've scheduled to give a talk
>> in Haifux in July, and I intend to put considerable effort into preparing
>> this talk, and it will be a bummer if I came all prepared and there wouldn't
>> be a person to open the projector.
>> So what's up with that? Why did none of the organizers come to open the
>> projector?
>> Ram Rachum.
>>
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>>
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Haifux] Kernel oops, so what?

[guy keren]

this is oops-dependent - but i tihnk this is generaly a software bug.

some oopses cause the machine to freeze and you need to reboot. some 
other times, they just cause a user-space process to terminate - and you 
can continue working normally.

in general, i think the old myths are not true today. it _could_ be that 
an oops is generated by a hardware problem - but this is not the common 
case any more.

--guy

Eli Billauer wrote:
> Thanks, but it looks like I wasn't clear about it: My issue is not to 
> solve the specific problem. The question is that if I should bother, or 
> just wait.
> 
> 
> In ancient times, an oops meant I had no choice. The computer was dead. 
> But judging by how the interface communicates with me (something like 
> "file a report, we'll handle this") I wonder if an oops has joined the 
> family of just another software crash.
> 
> 
>Eli
> 
> 
> Shachar Raindel wrote:
> 
>> Try a quick google search for the warning:
>> http://www.google.co.il/search?q=+WARNING%3A+at+arch%2Fx86%2Fkernel%2Fhpet.c%3A390&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
>>
>> It might be problem with hpet and freq-scaling not playing nicely with
>> each other.
>>
>> --Shachar
>>
>>   
>>
> 
> 

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Re: [Haifux] QEMU/KVM vs. VMWare: The beauty and the beast

[guy keren]

Eli Billauer wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I've been playing around with my new Fedora 12 computer (Intel i7 quad 
> core) for a few days, mainly for the purpose of making educated 
> decisions about how to virtualize two old computers, which I want to get 
> rid of. They are running Windows 2000 and Redhat 7.3. I only tested the 
> Windows part (Linux should be much easier). Fedora 12 is the host, of 
> course.
> 
> I've looked at QEMU/KVM vs. VMWare.  I want to share my experiences and 
> insights with you, because I don't like the bottom line, which is the 
> VMWare is better for almost all home purposes (I'm not talking about 
> cloud servers and such). Which makes me wonder: Is VMWare a honey trap, 
> or is it currently the preferred choice?

i didn't try KVM - i did try XEN - and it, too, works in a similar 
)Crappy) manner. i didn't compare it "head to head" with vmplayer on the 
same machine - but it is quite very slagish.

with xen, i did manage to find some... driver(?) that made the mouse 
pointer work much better then without it - did you look for something 
similar for KVM?

i think that the main issue, is that vmplayer is a down-sized version of 
a commercial GUI program (vmware workstation) - and these programs tend 
to be far more polished then "technology-oriented" programs, such as 
qemu. it could be that since KVM is "commercial" meant mostly for 
desktops - they'll have better support in the future - assuming there is 
no collision between the commercialization-efforts of nucleolus/redhat 
and the free-software-ness of the KVM kernel part.

--guy
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[Haifux] Startup in yokneam looking for linux user+kernel programmer

[guy keren]

the company i work for is looking for a linux user-space+kernel-space 
programmer to join the r&d team.

minimal requirements:
- experience with kernel-level programming under linux.

advantages:
- experience with programming under linux in user-space (system 
programming, application programming...)
- experience with network programming.
- experience with development of distributed systems.
- experience with participating in the development of open-source projects.

if you feel you're qualified, and would like to apply, please send me 
your C.V. and i'll forward it to the r&d manager.

thanks,
--guy
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Re: [Haifux] [HELP HELP] Uses of Linux in the "real world"

[guy keren]

tivo (the first wide-spread digital video recording appliance) is a 
linux-based machine.

linksys wireless routers are linux-based machines.

google's android operating system is actually based on linux.

many (most?) cable modems and adsl modems run linux as their base 
operating system.

in fact, a lot of embedded products developed in israel (And of-course 
abroad) are based on linux.

google's search appliances and data-centers all run linux - so when you 
search via google, you're using linux 
(http://www.google.com/support/gsa/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=15898)

--guy

Eli Billauer wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm working on the short talk I'm going to give on Wednesday on the W2L 
> opening event.
> 
> 
> I'd like to give some examples of well-known uses of GNU/Linux. Does 
> anyone have information, or even better, pointers to credible sources of 
> such information?
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any credible number of Linux penetration in servers, 
> business and government desktops?
> 
> 
> For example, some of Edimax wireless routers are actually Linux 
> machines. How do I know? Because they give a link to the source. (See 
> http://www.edimax.com/en/produce_detail.php?pd_id=268&pl1_id=3&pl2_id=18 )
> 
> 
> I need more like these. Or articles.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
>Eli
> 

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Re: [Haifux] [W2L] Call for lecturer + "Linux guru"

[guy keren]

(if you top-post - i'll post-top too! :P~~~)

well, that _is_ good news for employers (bad news for the students ;)

--guy

Vadim Eisenberg wrote:
> guy keren wrote:
>> you can mention memory leaks if you want - but students don't care about 
>> them so much, because it doesn't break their programs.
> 
> Starting from the Winter 2008-2009 semester, the memory leaks are checked in 
> Matam (Introduction to Systems Programming) course and 1 point is reduced for 
> each leak. The check is done automatically, using, guess what, valgrind. So 
> the students in Matam actually care very much about the memory leaks.
> 
> Vadim
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: haifux-boun...@haifux.org [mailto:haifux-boun...@haifux.org] On Behalf 
> Of guy keren
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:47 AM
> To: Eli Billauer
> Cc: Haifa Linux Club
> Subject: Re: [Haifux] [W2L] Call for lecturer + "Linux guru"
> 
> Eli Billauer wrote:
>> guy keren wrote:
>>
>>> what - no valgrind?
>>>
>> I stand corrected. A quick demonstration of valgrind (show how it 
>> detects memory leaks and access to unallocated/uninitialized memory) 
>> is in place. It's definitely something handy for a student, and it's 
>> so simple to use.
>>
>>   Eli
>>
> 
> i think the best demo for valgrind would be:
> 
> 1. this step should be done at home: write a program that has a non-obvious 
> problem with corrupting its memory (make sure that when you run it, it 
> actually crashes)
> 
> 2. the next steps will be done during the demonstration: show it to the 
> people (the source, how the program crashes, and how you fail to find the 
> problem even when the crash is done inside gdb)
> 
> 3. show them how you find the bug within seconds using valgrind.
> 
> you can mention memory leaks if you want - but students don't care about them 
> so much, because it doesn't break their programs. they do care about memory 
> corruption if it indeed causes their program to crash.
> 
> --guy
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Re: [Haifux] [W2L] Call for lecturer + "Linux guru"

[guy keren]

Eli Billauer wrote:
> guy keren wrote:
> 
>>
>> what - no valgrind?
>>
> I stand corrected. A quick demonstration of valgrind (show how it 
> detects memory leaks and access to unallocated/uninitialized memory) is 
> in place. It's definitely something handy for a student, and it's so 
> simple to use.
> 
>   Eli
> 

i think the best demo for valgrind would be:

1. this step should be done at home: write a program that has a 
non-obvious problem with corrupting its memory (make sure that when you 
run it, it actually crashes)

2. the next steps will be done during the demonstration: show it to the 
people (the source, how the program crashes, and how you fail to find 
the problem even when the crash is done inside gdb)

3. show them how you find the bug within seconds using valgrind.

you can mention memory leaks if you want - but students don't care about 
them so much, because it doesn't break their programs. they do care 
about memory corruption if it indeed causes their program to crash.

--guy
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Re: [Haifux] [W2L] Call for lecturer + "Linux guru"

[guy keren]

the problem with git, is that it's very easy to shoot yourself in the 
foot. giving it to students, who might accidentally reset their 
repository into losing their code, is not a very good idea, if you don't 
have time to give a proper explanation plus warnings.

--guy

Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 09:13:58PM +0200, Eli Billauer wrote:
>> OK, I think this is a good time to express my view regarding the  
>> "Development tools" lecture. It's purpose, as I see it, is to give the  
>> students a nice start with the "right" tools for developing code, as  
>> needed for their exercises. If their experience is good, they'll stay.  
>> If not, they'll soon use the alternatives.
>>
>>
>> If you want to give a lecture about any other subject, as a  
>> Stay-in-Linux or mainstream lecture, by all means come forward. But  
>> let's try to get some focus on the initial lecture.
>>
>>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but a student is not likely to go beyond a  
>> project which runs on a single platform, having a few source files, and  
>> with no more than two or three persons involved. Hence autotools are  
>> irrelevant, and so are version control systems. Tarballing all sources,  
>> and sending to your partner with comments, is as much version control as  
>> you need in these situations.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with you regarding version control systems.
> 
> Specifically distributed version control systems make the common case of
> a repository for the project simple. Unlike Subversion, you don't need
> to set up a separate server.
> 
> And it saves you a whole lot of time in saving ex1.c_1 , ex1.c_2,
> ex.c.orig and such. I think that demonstarting simple linear workflow
> (no branches, no remote repositories) with git, bzr or hg could be handy.
> 

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Re: [Haifux] [W2L] Call for lecturer + "Linux guru"

[guy keren]

what - no valgrind?

it's the one killer application that might save students many nights of 
pulling out their hair.

of-course, we can go the asimov way ("profession day") and claim they 
need to go through some such nights before they are introduced to the 
blessing of valgrind...

--guy

Eli Billauer wrote:
> OK, I think this is a good time to express my view regarding the 
> "Development tools" lecture. It's purpose, as I see it, is to give the 
> students a nice start with the "right" tools for developing code, as 
> needed for their exercises. If their experience is good, they'll stay. 
> If not, they'll soon use the alternatives.
> 
> 
> If you want to give a lecture about any other subject, as a 
> Stay-in-Linux or mainstream lecture, by all means come forward. But 
> let's try to get some focus on the initial lecture.
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but a student is not likely to go beyond a 
> project which runs on a single platform, having a few source files, and 
> with no more than two or three persons involved. Hence autotools are 
> irrelevant, and so are version control systems. Tarballing all sources, 
> and sending to your partner with comments, is as much version control as 
> you need in these situations.
> 
> 
> Eclipse doesn't belong to the "right" tools, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> I would therefore set the following goals to a CS development tools 
> intro lecture:
> 
> 
> 1. Being able to compile the sources (objects and executable), including 
> math libraries and such, with reasonable flags (optimization, debug 
> info, -Wall etc) with gcc.
> 
> 2. Using make properly. No crazy tricks, just getting the actions and 
> dependencies right.
> 
> 3. Using vi/vim/emacs (show both, explain why both are good). I wouldn't 
> bother showing many keystrokes, just demonstrating and pointing at where 
> you can get a good reference for them.
> 
> 4. Use ddd for debugging. It's worth mentioning that it's based upon 
> gdb, and that gdb commands can be given directly (demonstrate?) but 
> using gdb to start with is not convincing at all.
> 
> 
> More is less. My $.02.
> 
> 
>Eli
> 
> 
> Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 05:14:50PM +0200, boazg wrote:
>>   
>>> as a side note, a seperate lecture on git for CS students, and how to use it
>>> with t2 would be a good idea.
>>> 
>>
>> Why git?
>>
>> While I think git is a handy tool, did you have in mind "developement
>> tools"?
>>
>> Other tools that come in mind:
>>
>> gcc
>> make
>> vi / vim
>> gdb
>> autotools
>> emacs
>> kdevelop
>> eclipse
>>
>> (Just a list of tools from the top of my head, I don't intend to start a
>> flame war on the exact content of a non-existing lecture)
>>
>>   
> 
> 
> -- 
> Web: http://www.billauer.co.il
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] Me Volunteering to Give a Presentation

[guy keren]

Orr Dunkelman wrote:
> Hi everybody!
> 
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>>> Haifux is what we make of it. "We" are the people who attend the meetings.
>>>
>> With that I could agree!
> 
> "We, the people" is a lovely statement. Google the rest.
> 
>> I have no problem with this, in fact as a largely silent "member" of
>> Haifux I do not expect that it would matter even if I did have a
>> problem! However, I felt it right to point out to Shlomi from which
>> perspective his lecture would be most parallel with what I perceive
>> Haifux to be.
> 
> Yes. Haifux is indeed one of these concepts. If you think Haifux is a
> Guava, then Haifux is a Guava (so does the zionism, btw).
> 
>>> BTW, when Haifux was founded in 1999 by guy keren and Orr Dunkelman,
>>> it was not based on a LUG but on LUPG - Little Unix Programmers Group:
>>> http://users.actcom.co.il/~choo/lupg/
>>>
>> I see no mention of Haifux on that page, nor of that page on the
>> Haifux site. Therefore, one could not deduce the Little Unix
>> Programmers Group moniker from publicly- available Haifux information.
>> I will however quote the opening lines of the Haifux website:
>> "The Haifa Linux Club is a home for Linux users and programmers in the
>> Haifa area. Haifux stands for Haifa Linux Users Group."
>>
>> So, while you are correct that the group is made for programmers as
>> well as users, I still contend that the name implies users as the main
>> audience. Despite that, being that programmers are specifically
>> mentioned in who the group is for, a lecture aimed at programmers
>> would in fact be appropriate for the group.
>>
> 
> Well, this is mentioned once in a while (especially when we discuss
> the "charter" of haifux).
> 
> But fear not!
> 
> We the People of Haifux, in Order to form a more perfect LUG,
> establish clux, ensure domestic Open Sourceness, provide for the
> common creatives, promote the general Welfare, and secure the
> Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and
> establish this Constitution for the Haifa Linux User Group.
> 
> (and starting from this day onward, let it be known that Guy Keren is
> our founding father).

and that makes you - what? the founding mother? ;)

but to get to the point - what dotan is saying could be translated to 
"perhaps SiL (Staying in Linux) should be re-incarnated?"

--guy

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Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX LECTURE] GCC Profile Guided Optimization

[guy keren]

it seems to work for me now (i'm connected via bezeq bein leumi).

can you check again?

--guy

Serge wrote:
> Is www.haifux.org down? it doesn't work for me.
> 
> Thanks, Serge.
> 
> On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 14:03 +0200, Eli Billauer wrote:
>> On Monday, August 10th at 18:30, Haifux will gather to hear Shachar
>> Shemesh' talk
>>
>>GCC Profile Guided Optimization
>>
>> Abstract
>>
>> Compiler optimization is a crucial part of modern computerized
>> systems. This lecture will cover what optimization is, why it is
>> necessary, as well as go into more details regarding what some of what
>> the compiler does during optimization. The lecture will also cover
>> profile guided optimization - where the compiler's optimization
>> decisions are assisted by information collected when the program is
>> actually running.
>>
>> Slides and examples are available at
>> http://www.haifux.org/lectures/218
>>
>> =
>>
>> We meet in Taub building, room 6. For instructions see:
>> http://www.haifux.org/where.html
>>
>> Attendance is free, and you are all invited!
>>
>> ==
>> Future lectures:
>>
>> 17/8/09   Sockets in the Linux Kernel (2): Rami Rosen
>> (Lectures to be announced...)
>> 26/10/09   Social and Cultural perspective on the Israeli FOSS
>> community: Liora Shlomi
>>
>> ==
>>
>> We are always interested in hearing your talks and ideas. If you wish
>> to give a talk, hold a discussion, or just plan some event haifux
>> might be interested in, please contact us at webmas...@haifux.org
>>
>> -- 
>> Web: http://www.billauer.co.il
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> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] what's the status of getting into the technion with a car?

[guy keren]

Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> If you reach after-hours and say your destiny is Michlol, there is a very
>> good chance they will let you in.
>>
> 
> Actually, the Miclol is closed at 18:00 so be careful with that one!
> But the swimming pool is another good destination, and it is open
> until 21:00 at least every day. Don't say that you are visiting
> someone in the dormitory, because they call and check that, and often
> request that you park outside the Technion in any case.
> 
>> Although the VIP card is a nice thing. How do you get it?
>>
> 
> There is a Budke to the right of the Neve Shaanan entrance. That is
> security, where all passes are given.
> 

so i just go there, say "i want to buy a VIP entrance", pay X NIS in 
cash, and they give me a yearly VIP pass on the spot?

--guy
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Re: [Haifux] reminder regarding tomorrow's second gdb meeting

[guy keren]

thanks.

there's no point in keeping the old slides - the new slides are a 
superset of the old ones (with some corrections) - so you could set both 
210 and 211 to point to the new slides.

thanks,
--guy


Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda wrote:
> Hi guy and all,
> 
> The new slides are now up for lecture 211 (of today).
> The old slides are still at the location of lecture 210 (the previous one).
> 
> Looking forward to hearing you,
> Orna.
> 
> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 6:51 PM,  > wrote:
> 
> 
> just a reminder that we're still on for tomorrow (monday)
> evening (18:30, TAUB 6, i believe?).
> 
> i send updated slides to webmaster, hopefully they'll be on
> haifux.org  sometime soon.
> 
> if they're not there and someone wants a copy, let me know and
> i'll send you a copy later tonight. note that i added two
> extra subjects - dealing with signals, and debugging shared
> libraries+python modules (easier then it sounds).
> 
> --guy
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[Haifux] some addendums to today's gdb meeting

[guy keren]

1. clarification: the command 'watch *(char*)0x65476 == 0'
  puts a hardware watch-point for a single byte at the given address.
  if you want to find a change to an item with a different size (e.g. 4
  bytes), use a different cast: 'watch *(int*)0x65476 == 0'

2. regarding the 'x' command and endianess: you can control the
assumed-endianness of gdb using 'set endian big', or 'set endian
little' (the default is 'auto'). use 'show endian' to see the current
value of this setting.

3. regarding watch points: you can use 'rwatch ' to be
notified whenever the value of this expression is _read_, so you can
find when someone access a certain memory area (for example).

4. in general 'help ' or 'help ' gives help about
this command.

5. regarding checkpoints and fork on windows - indeed it looks like 
cygwin's fork copies all the memory to the new process - which means 
that its a very expensive system call. thus, if your process has a very 
large footprint, or you try to make too many checkpoints - you'll hit 
swapping or the virtual memory limitation of your machine.

6. regarding re-creating a live process from a core file - some people 
already thought about this (as usual). here is an example (i didn't try 
this yet):

  http://www.geocities.com/asimshankar/checkpointing/

i think there was something else we wanted an answer for - does anyone 
remember?

--guy
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[Haifux] what's the status of getting into the technion with a car?

[guy keren]

is it possible these days for haifuxers or not?

thanks,
--guy
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Re: [Haifux] [HAIFUX LECTURE] gdb - customize it the way you want by Guy Keren

[guy keren]

Hi,

just to make things clear - this is a part of a 2-meetings set (the next 
meeting was kindly scheduled for two weeks afterwards).

in the 1st meeting we'll cover everything up to the section titled 
'Where Have My Source Files Gone?' in the slides. in the second meeting 
we'll go over the rest (writing gdb macros, debugging multi-threaded 
programs and debugging multi-process programs).

The slides found on haifux.org are not yet complete - they will be 
completed before the meetings, of-course.

thanks,
--guy

Orr Dunkelman wrote:
> On Monday, May 4th at 18:30, Haifux will gather to hear Guy Keren's
> talk about
> 
> gdb - customize it the way you want
> 
> Abstract
> 
> gdb is one of the more powerful tools that you have as a programmer in
> the UNIX environment. This talk is an introduction to gdb and how to
> it work for you.
> 
> (a preliminary version of the slides is available on the haifux
> website. While we're at it, Zvi's slides on his OLPC-talk are also
> online)
> 
> =
> 
> We meet in Taub building, room 6. For instructions see:
> http://www.haifux.org/where.html
> 
> Attendance is free, and you are all invited!
> 
> ======
> 
> Future lectures:
> 
> 18/5/09 gdb in Greater Depth: Guy Keren
> 25/5/09 OpenCL Overview: Ofer Rosenberg
>  1/6/09 Compiling Effectively for Cell with GCC: Revital Eres
> 15/6/09 Arduino - Open Source Hardware and a Viewport to Micro
> Manufacturing: Amy Chayun
> 29/6/09 KSM and the art of memory mangement: Izik Eidus
> 27/7/09  How Time Flies: Jiffies, Hi-Res Timers and the Tickless
> Kernel: Gilad Ben-Yossef
> 
> 
> ==
> 
> We are always interested in hearing your talks and ideas. If you wish to
> give a talk, hold a discussion, or just plan some event haifux might be
> interested in, please contact us at webmas...@haifux.org
> 

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Re: [Haifux] The 10th tip?

[guy keren]

1. another KDE tip (please verify it works in current KDE systems): 
there is a tool named 'klipper', which allows you to save the last 10 
(or more) copied entries. whenever you copy something, it gets pushed 
into klipper's window as well, and when you click on an entry in klipper 
- it gets copied again. this gets quite handy when writing programs.

   for gnome: there's a 'glipper' application. ubuntu 8.04 has it - just 
make sure you install it on the lab machines. to have it on the screen, 
right-click on the desktop panel, choose "add applet", and choose 
"clipboard manager". click on the new clipboard icon to see the list of 
historied "copy" operations and click on any of them to make it re-copied.

2. it will be a good idea to give a tip about virtual desktops. although 
they are "right there" on the task bar, many people don't know this, or 
simply don't think its useful because they are used to the single 
desktop on windows. i'm spending time at work to show people how to use 
virtual desktops effectively. two important things:

1. chose a theme for each desktop (e.g. one to read email, one to 
surf the web, one to program, etc.).
2. you can give the virtual desktop names that will appear on 
task-bars, instead of just numbers. chose short names (3-4 letters long) 
   such as "web", "mail", "prog" to avoid this feature taking too much 
taskbar space.
3. be consistent in how you use the virtual desktop, and it'll pay 
you big time. no more need to iconify, de-iconify and flip through 
windows, or having a very squeezed and non-useful task bar.
4. you can navigate between the virtual desktops both using the 
mouse (click) and using the keyboard (usually it's alt+arrow_key or 
alt+ctrl+arrow_key to move between them left and right, up and down - 
but the default might vary in KDE).

3. opening a system monitor applet on the desktop's panel, will help you 
identify cases when your progam has gone into an infinite loop easily 
(you'll see the CPU suddenly using 100% CPU when your program got stuck 
- that's a good sign). of-course, this will also happen when your web 
browser's flash plug-in works too hard in sites like ynet ;)

4. here is a strange KDE-specific tip copied from a web site at:
 
http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Tips%20and%20Tricks&pagenum=26#You_can_Move_the_Mouse_with_Your_Keyboard

[ begin quote ]
You can Move the Mouse with Your Keyboard
You can configure KDE so you can move the mouse pointer with the arrow 
keys on your numeric keyboard. Just hit Alt-F12, use the arrow keys, and 
hit enter to click! The keyboard then returns to normal mode — hit 
alt-F12 again to move the mouse another time.

For permanent effects, navigate to KControl -> Peripherals -> Mouse -> 
Mouse Navigation Tab and click the "Move mouse with keyboard" box.
The default settings didn't work great for me--I use a maximum speed of 
110 and an acceleration time of 2000.

To fire a mouse click, press the "5" key on the numeric key pad, or "enter".
[ end quote ]

even if it is not going to be very useful - it may still make people laugh.

for gnome, you need to enable this via:
System->Preferences->Assistitive Technologies->Keyboard 
Accessibility->Mouse keys->Pointer can be controlled using keypad.

check the option, and configure its settings). then, the numeric keypad 
becomes your "mouse".

5. firefox has very nice add-ons. here is an example - an inline 
dictionary. install it from this URL:

   https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/302

  and after it is installed (and firefox restarted) you can select a 
word in firefox, right-click and choose 'lookup' from the context menu.

6. adding parametrized bookmarks and short-cutting them (copied from a 
user's comment on some blog page):

[ begin quote ]
Awesome article! Learned a few tricks here, to be sure. However, the 
feature that I find most useful about Firefox is the ability to not only 
use keywords to open particular bookmarks (see #5 above) but to 
parametrize those keywords. This process allows you to create custom 
commandline-esque macros that you can execute from your addressbar. For 
instance, if I type “gi the pyramids” into my adddress bar, I’m taken to 
the google image search page with a bunch of pictures of the pyramids in 
egypt, as if I had entered “the pyramids” into the search box on the 
site. The process is as follows:

1) Bookmark a site. Typically, you’ll want to search for something on 
the site and bookmark that search page. 
(http://images.google.com/images?q=the%20pyramids)
2) Edit the properties of the bookmark (right-click).
3) Put your desired keyword in the keyword field (gi). [editor: you may 
need to click on 'more' to see the keyboard field]
4) In the location field, find the keyword that you searched for and 
replace it with “%s”. (http://images.google.com/images?q=%s)
5) Save the bookmark and test it out. Type “gi hoover dam” into the 
address bar. Then repeat for all of your favor

Re: [Haifux] Lecture Suggestion - Disco Project, an open source Map-Reduce framework based on Erlang and Python (mostly Python :-) )

[guy keren]

can you explain, briefly, what map-reduce is, so those not in the know 
(like me) will be able to decide if this is interesting? ;)

thanks,
--guy

Eran Sandler wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> It's been a while since I've posted to Haifux (or Linux-IL for that 
> matter) but I am watching the mailing list from time to time and due to 
> personal reasons found myself as a Haifa citizen for the past year (and 
> probably for a couple more years :-) ).
> 
> Somewhere in 2004 I even did a lecture on Mono, the open source .NET 
> implementation, if some of you recall.
> 
> Recently I've been involved with a cool open source project called Disco.
> 
> Disco is an open source Map-Reduce framework written in Erlang and 
> Python. It was written at Nokia's Palo Alto research center as a 
> lightweight framework for rapid scripting of distributed data processing 
> tasks but grew to become even more than that and is now even used for 
> probabilistic modeling, data mining, full text indexing, etc.
> 
> You can read more about Disco at http://discoproject.org
> 
> Would a lecture on Map-Reduce in general and specifically Disco would 
> interest people?
> 
> If so, I'm more than willing to give the lecture and show some examples.
> 
> Eran
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Haifux] lecture suggestion: gdb in greater depth

[guy keren]

Since i've moved back to using gdb alot, and since i got tired of the 
limitations from the past, i started digging deeper into the 
documentation, and found a wealth of features that were added to gdb 
over the years (some available only on current linux systems), and i 
could come up with a lecture the title "gdb - customizing it the way 
_you_ want", in which i'll talk about gdb features related to 
multi-threaded programs debugging, how to make it easier to view your 
data and how to automate gdb to make your lives easier (or at least - 
mine ;)

if there's interest, i'll build the lecture in the following weeks, as i 
  delve deeper into the user manual, and i'll be ready with it in 1-2 
month (granted, if the queue is longer, i'll wait in line).

--guy
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Re: [Haifux] Multi-thread debugging for C++ on Linux

[guy keren]

i did not understand what feature you want.

gdb supports suspending all the threads together (which is what you 
normally want), continuing all of them together, and doing a single-step 
in one thread (which has the annoying side-effect of allowing other 
threads to also continue executing at the same time - this is the one 
feature of gdb which i find annoying).

generally, i don't debug multi-threaded programs using a debugger. i use 
logs, a single log file, where each line contains the thread-id (so 
you'll be able to filter out messages belonging to a single thread of 
execution). i use the debugger for two major activities:

1. debugging a crashed process (i.e. analysis of a code file) - gdb 
supports this and shows you the stacks and variables of all the threads.

2. break-pointing a program at a given command (or when a given memory 
address is being altered or accessed) - and studing the state of the 
program without single-stepping.

if you find the solution to single-stepping a single thread - let me 
know. this will be a nice feature. i once thought i saw a way to do it, 
but when i searched for this again - i didn't find it.

--guy

Ohad Lutzky wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I am examining the issue of debugging multi-threaded (specifically using 
> pthreads, and written in C or C++) applications in Linux. The basic 
> tools, as far as I can tell, are somewhat lacking; while the DDD 
> documentation does have a screenshot showing a "suspend" button in 
> Status->Threads, this does not show up in my version of ddd (3.3.11), 
> and I can't really figure out how to do this from within gdb. Is it even 
> possible? As far as I know, this is possible with Java, and I'm guessing 
> that it has to do with additional JRE instrumentation (the debugger 
> tells JRE to suspend the thread, and while the Linux thread is running, 
> the JRE code therein does a sched_yield).
> 
> So my question are:
> 1. Am I missing something, and this is in fact possible with GDB? If so, 
> is there a graphical interface (my coworkers are fond of those...) which 
> supports this?
> 2. Is there a different Linux (on x86) debugger which does support this?
> 3. What is the situation of this problem on other OSes?
> 4. What other neat thread-related debugging tools (other than suspending 
> individual threads, that is) are there, and which debuggers support them?
> 
> I've been trying to google the answers to these questions, but so far 
> I've come up short. Any wise keywords would be appreciated :)
> 
> -- 
> Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal 
> that is struck with the difference between what things are and what they 
> ought to be.
> - William Hazlitt
> 
> Ohad Lutzky
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?

[guy keren]

whatever you do - please be careful with choosing ubuntu - version 8.04 
completely broke sound support for many programs i'm talking about 
usability - not about politics) - and people kept asking questions about 
this issue on the various forums, at least until august (i stopped 
looking, since by that time i managed to somehow work around most of the 
sound issues).

i understood that in fedora 9 (that also integraded soundpulse to some 
extent) - this problem does not exist.

sound is quite an important feature for people's desktops.

--guy

Dave Roi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post 
> install configuration and usage instructions.
> 
> I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed 
> but aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections 
> to their ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc..
> I'm sorry but the default install still lacks too much functionality and 
> most newbies aren't aware of their existance.
> 
> I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post 
> install configurations using GUI alone.
> No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-)
> Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen, 
> Elisa the media center, Nexuiz/Urban terror etc, NOT vim and programing.
> How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against 
> each other? :-)
> 
> I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around 
> helping people.
> 
> About the distro choice, I would go the Ubuntu way for the following 
> reasons:
> 
> 1. That's the name most people have heard (from friends etc..).
> 2. That's what they see in the faculty.
> 3. Wubi, The windows Ubuntu Installer is the easiest way to dual boot. 
> No partitioning required.
> 
> About KDE, Haven't tried the 4.1.1 release yet, but 4.1 wasn't ready for 
> any real use.
> I'm a gnome guy but that's a matter of personal taste.
> 
> Hopefully I'll be able to join the instaparty and help, it depends what 
> day/time is decided.
> 
> 
> Dave.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 14:14, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> 
> And now answering Adir:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>  > Hi all,
>  >
>  > I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party,
>  > sometime in November.
>  > The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see
> that it is
>  > not just good in "theory".
>  >
>  > My reasons for the need of Instaparty are:
>  >
>  > 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the
> lectures
>  > is to let them experience it.
> Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs,
> and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event
> are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines.
> 
>  > 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own
> computer, with
>  > the help of a veteran installer.
> I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS
> partitioning is done quite automatically today.
> 
>  > 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They
> will be
>  > able to "play" with their distribution afterwards.
> Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not
> think that you need "Tana' demesaye" for this anymore.
> 
> As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this
> service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the
> process (and they shouldn't).
> 
> There is a need for a post-installation support (Q&A session in the
> W2L would probably make a lot of sense).
> 
> Regards,
> Orr.
> 
> --
> Orr Dunkelman,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> "a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere
> heart of stone" - Charles Darwin.
> 
> GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
> (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key
> corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> )
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> 
> 
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[Haifux] [OT] Sequoia backed startup looking for a Linux Systems/Kernel Developer

[guy keren]

Hi,

the (new) startup company i work for is looking for linux developers - 
see the below ad. if anyone considers themselves suitable, please send 
me your CV.

thanks,
guy

---
Sequoia backed startup looking for a Linux Systems/Kernel Developer

A Sequoia backed company based in Yokneam is looking for talent in the
areas of Linux systems/kernel development and distributed networked systems.

Job Title: SW Engineer  ( Linux Systems/Kernel Developer )

Description: Participate in a core engineering team developing
innovative high performance system.

The position include involvement in the definition of a high performance
distributed SW stack and its production quality implementation.

Requirements:

* BSc or MSc in Electrical/Computer Engineering or Computer science 
(with honors), with emphasis on computer networks and architecture.
* Few years of SW development ( preferably in C )
* Self learning skills.
* Good communication and presentation skills.

Advantages:

* Linux and Linux internals
* Device drivers development
* Understanding of Storage and Networking Protocols
* Familiarly with Servers Internals

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Re: [Haifux] Proposal: Git lecture

[guy keren]

if there'll also be some comparison of git with traditional things (e.g. 
cvs/svn) and similar tools (e.g. the previously-used bitkeeper, or 
something like 'arch') - that'd be even better.

can you extend this?

--guy

Maya Shapira wrote:
> I'm in.
> 
> Maya.
> 
> On Jan 26, 2008 1:01 PM, Ohad Lutzky <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Git is the version control system used for the kernel. It was
> originally written by Linus, who wanted a fast, distributed VCS.
> Anyone interested in hearing about *using* it? (That is, a lecture
> chock-full of examples) (No, I'm not fluent enough in the internals to
> explain how it works, and I think those warrant another lecture
> altogether) (Yes, I'm too lazy to make slides, and that's a good
> thing)
> 
> --
> Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only
> animal that is struck with the difference between what things are and
> what they ought to be.
>  - William Hazlitt
> 
> Ohad Lutzky
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Re: [Haifux] A question about g++ dump files

[guy keren]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have a question about binary files of g++ , please:
> in the option
>  g++ -fdump-class-hierarchy source.cpp
> I get the hierarchies of c++ in memory, in a file named source.cpp.class
> How can I get the binary data of it?

i did not understand what you said about "get the binary data of it" - 
the binary data of what?

if you're asking about getting the class hierarchy out of executable 
files - i'm afraid you are out of luck - that information is not kept in 
executable files.

--guy
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Re: [Haifux] Update of the Club's lecture hall

[guy keren]

can you do something better - a comparison of Linux journaled 
file-systems (ext3, reiserfs, xfs) with zfs?

note: do not assume that the crowd will know how the other file systems 
work - so you'll have to show that too )and learn that, along the way).

just showing zfs alone will be less interesting, in my opinion.

--guy

Dave Roi wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm Dave, some of you know me from my work in the CS farm, I've been in 
> charge of the Linux stations there for the past year and a half since 
> Boaz and Lutzky left it.
> 
> I recently started another job at Sun microsystems and I'd like to give 
> some OpenSolaris related lectures such as ZFS, DTRACE, Solaris ZONES etc..
> If the response will be good I can do lectures on all of them.
> I was thinking about starting with a ZFS lecture, which I think is cool 
> but I can start with something else if people are more interested.
> 
> Tell me what you guys think.
> Thanks,
> Dave.
> 
> 
> On Dec 7, 2007 11:19 PM, Orr Dunkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I was informed by the CS dept. that haifux will no longer be holding
> its meetings in Taub 3. We were re-assigned Taub 6, on the first
> floor.
> 
> Also, if you'll notice the queue currently contains only one lecture.
> If you are interested to speak about anything (including - how to
> write crawlers to get data for your experiments, how to develop
> software in Linux while running a VMWare, and/or how to re-install FC
> 8 (after FC 7 was acting more nicely) please contact the webmasters
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED] ).
> 
> Regards to all,
> 
> --
> Orr Dunkelman,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> "Any human thing supposed to be complete, must for that reason
> infallibly
> be faulty" -- Herman Melville, Moby Dick.
> 
> GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3  2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
> (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key
> corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> )
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Haifux] Intro to Linux

[guy keren]

Amichai Rotman wrote:
> Hi All,
>  
> I want to start a kind of a LUG at my workplace, a 60-120 minutes 
> lecture every two weeks for the workers only (an internal LUG).

how many people are expected to be in each such meeting? 5 people or 20 
people may use a different approach (and probably - if you have fewer 
people, you need less time).

> I was asked to provide a road map / syllabus for the lectures. I tried 
> to explain it isn't a standard course. More like a bi-weekly gathering 
> of people with common interests, but she still wants circulate a message 
> about what's coming.
>  
> So I need a list of topics to cover the first 4-5 gatherings.

what's the background of the people coming there? are they completely 
new to linux, or do they already use linux on a daily basis?

> Is there a ready-made "training plan" I can use out of the box out there 
> (in Hebrew, credits will be given where credits are due, of course!)

you have the different welcome-to-linux lecture sets hanging in various 
places - _if_ your crowd is completely new to linux.

if it is not - you'll have to pick up some english material and 
translate it (or - simply assume everyone has a good enough english, and 
use the english material, while talking in hebrew).

--guy
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[Haifux] daytime-client and multi-client-echo-server sources from today's meeting

[guy keren]

Hi,

attached are the sources (2 very small C source files).

to compile them on a current Linux system, just run:

gcc daytime-client.c -o daytime-client

and

gcc multi-client-echo-server.c -o multi-client-echo-server

to run the client - you need a working daytime server.

to run the server - just run it in one window. then in another window:

telnet localhost 5060

type a line and see it echoed back to you.
open another telnet session and check that they both can get a proper 
service.


try to write a client that will only send data, never read data, and see 
if you can get the server stuck (as we discussed in the meeting today).
try to fix the code, by adding the write socket group and see that it 
overcomes the problem, and yet does not get into a 'busy-wait' situation.


let me know if there are any questions, of even just if you did this and 
how it worked (i think it'll be safe to discuss this on the mailing list 
too, if you want - we'll not cause too much noise).


--guy
/* daytime-client.c - a daytime service client */

#include 		/* Basic I/O routines  */
#include 		/* exit()  */
#include 		/* memset(), memcpy()...   */
#include 		/* read(), close()...  */
#include 		/* standard system types   */
#include 		/* Internet address structures */
#include 		/* socket interface functions  */
#include 		/* host to IP resolution   */

#define	HOSTNAMELEN	40	/* maximal host name length */
#define	BUFLEN		1024	/* maximum response size*/
#define	PORT		13	/* port of daytime server   */

int main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int			rc;/* system calls return value storage */
int	s; /* socket descriptor */
char		buf[BUFLEN+1]; /* buffer server answer */
char*		pc;/* pointer into the buffer */
struct sockaddr_in	sa;/* Internet address struct */
struct hostent* hen; 	   /* host-to-IP translation */

/* check there are enough parameters */
if (argc < 2) {
	fprintf(stderr, "Missing host name\n");
	exit (1);
}

/* Address resolution stage */
hen = gethostbyname(argv[1]);
if (!hen) {
  	perror("couldn't resolve host name");
return -1;
}

/* initiate machine's Internet address structure */
/* first clear out the struct, to avoid garbage  */
memset(&sa, 0, sizeof(sa));
/* Using Internet address family */
sa.sin_family = AF_INET;
/* copy port number in network byte order */
sa.sin_port = htons(PORT);
/* copy IP address into address struct */
memcpy(&sa.sin_addr.s_addr, hen->h_addr_list[0], hen->h_length);

/* allocate a free socket */
/* Internet address family, Stream socket */
s = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0);
if (s < 0) {
	perror("socket: allocation failed");
return -1;
}

/* now connect to the remote server. the system will	*/
/* use the 4th binding method (see section 3)		*/
/* note the cast to a struct sockaddr pointer of the	*/
/* address of variable sa.	*/
rc = connect(s, (struct sockaddr *)&sa, sizeof(sa));

/* check there was no error */
if (rc) {
	perror("connect");
return -1;
}

/* now that we are connected, start reading the socket	*/
/* till read() returns 0, meaning the server closed	*/
/* the connection.	*/
pc = buf;

while ((rc = read(s, pc, BUFLEN - (pc-buf))) > 0) {
pc += rc;
}
if (rc < 0) {
perror("read");
return -1;
}

/* close the socket */
close(s);

/* pad a null character to the end of the result */
*pc = '\0';

/* print the result */
printf("Time: %s\n", buf);

/* and terminate */
return 0;
}
/* multi-client-echo-server.c - a multi-client echo server */
/* Copyrights - Guy Keren 1999 (c) 			   */

#include 		/* Basic I/O routines 		*/
#include 		/* memset()  		*/
#include 		/* standard system types 	*/
#include 		/* Internet address structures 	*/
#include 		/* socket interface functions 	*/
#include 		/* host to IP resolution 	*/
#include 		/* for timeout values 		*/
#include 		/* for table size calculations 	*/

#define	PORT		5060	/* port of our echo server */
#define	BUFLEN		1024	/* buffer length 	   */

int main()
{
int			i;		/* index counter for loop operations */
int			rc; 		/* system calls return value storage */
int			s; 		/* socket descriptor */
int			cs; 		/* new connection's socket descriptor */
char		buf[BUFLEN+1];  /* buffer for incoming data */
struct sockaddr_in	sa; 		/* Internet address struct */
struct sockaddr_in	csa; 		/* client's address struct */
size_t 	size_csa; 	/* size of client's address struct */
fd_set		rfd; 		/* set of open sockets */
fd_set		c_rfd; 		/* set of sockets waiting 

Re: [Haifux] A lecture suggestion : Linux Kernel Networking Overview

[guy keren]

if there will be any demand for this - i could give the re-run.

--guy


Eli Billauer wrote:
To begin with, I'm not what you could call a network programmer, so it's 
very possible that this lecture could be done better by someone else. 
But to begin with, let's see that a talk about basic socket programming 
has an audience (which was my original, yet unanswered, question).


   Eli

Orr Dunkelman wrote:


Eli,
 
Following the standard FOSS approach- the one who cries is the one to 
fix...
 
Would you be willing to give a re-run of the said lecture?
 
We have an open slot (I think the 6th of August is currently not 
committed) if you like.
 
Orr.







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Re: [Haifux] A lecture suggestion : Linux Kernel Networking Overview

[guy keren]

hi rami,

please consider spreading the material as a "lecture set". i think that 
once you write down the material as slides (or something similar) you'll 
get an idea of how long it'll take. assume never more then 15 slides in 
a (quite condensed) hour.


why do it too brief, when you can get all the time in the world - a dual 
or triple lecture ;)


--guy

Rami Rosen wrote:

Hi,

Oooh, that was a fast response!


I'll even attend :-)

happy to hear it !


One comment: you have way too much material there to cover it in
sufficient depth in one talk.


Maybe I should have mention that I intend only to talk about
IP (for layer 3) and Ethernet  (for layer 2), which are (probably) the
most common.

Maybe the bridging part will be shorter than others or totally removed.

The brief survey about future trends is intended to be really brief ,
not more than 5-10 minutes, just giving a description of what things are 
about.


I believe that I would manage to discuss all these topics in 2 hours.

I agree that these subjects are heavy but I believe that I will manage to
describe the essence , focusing as said on a walkthrough of a packet
(in both directions - from a device to a socket  (or forwarding), and
from a socket to a device).

Anyway, in case time won't suffice, there is always the option to
shorten it / give a second lecture.

Regards,
Rami Rosen

On 7/1/07, Muli Ben-Yehuda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 05:11:05PM +0300, Rami Rosen wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I suggest to give a lecture about Linux Kernel Networking;

Two thumbs up from me. I'll even attend :-)

One comment: you have way too much material there to cover it in
sufficient depth in one talk. I suggest picking one (or more) subjects
and focusing on those.

Cheers,
Muli



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[Haifux] lecture idea: High-Availability clusters on Linux and other systems

[guy keren]

during my work i had the "pleasure" of working with different
high-availablity (HA) clustering software of various types.

i can try to prepare a lecture that covers issues such as:
- what are high-availability clusters
- how they work,
- what cluster software is available for linux
- how these clusters work compared to clusters for other operating systems
- how they integrate with SCSI disks, SANs, shared file-systems, NFS over
  an HA cluster

etc.

any interest in this? it's going to be quite technical - but i'm not going
to configure clusters during the lecture.

--guy

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Leon Romanovsky wrote:

> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 11:39:03 +0300
> From: Leon Romanovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: haifux@haifux.org
> Subject: Re: [Haifux] Vehicle Entry Permission
>
> I agree with you, but someone must to do it.
> This is why GSO is willing to help us.
>
> Zvi Devir wrote:
> > For my lecture (olpc), I talked with the Kabat and got an exceptional entry
> > permissions for that evening. However, a permanent permission for the 
> > audience
> > of Haifux requires a long process.
> >
> > Quoting Leon Romanovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I wanted to ask you, if anyone interested in automatic entry permission
> >> (ishurei knisa lerehev) for Haifux audience?
> >>
> >> Thereis possibility to receive support from GSO (Graduate Student
> >> Organization) to fight against Technion bureaucracy.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Leon Romanovsky
> >> -
> >> "It's time to world to changing".
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org)
> > To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Leon Romanovsky
> -
> "Under Construction".
>
> -
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-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy


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Re: [Haifux] Call for experts (for the Linux for CS lecture)

[guy keren]

Ohad Lutzky wrote:

On 3/22/07, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

i guess i might fall into that category, then.
i'll try to come. of-course, that means i'll tell them students to stick
with windows and visual studio - unless they are courageous enough and
stubborn enough for self-learning.


Guy, please don't tell them that within my lecture :/
Feel free to argue with me (and the audience, hopefully) about it
during the Q&A session though.



i don't like encouraging people into using something that does not fit 
them - so i try to make sure they understand they are expected to do 
some learning, in order to get by.


don't worry - i'm not going to jump during the lecture and shout "don't 
listen to him!". just during the Q&A session.


if you were teaching people that never saw MS software - i might have 
had a different opinion. but once they saw it - anything else will be 
considered "not as good" - even if it is better but different.


lets not argue here - i think that the MS environment in inferior to the 
tools i like - but i can see the advantages it does have for people with 
slow fingers, short memories and moderate laziness ;)


--guy

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Re: [Haifux] Call for experts (for the Linux for CS lecture)

[guy keren]

Ohad Lutzky wrote:

On 3/22/07, Peleg Sapir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

errr... am I considered "expert" enough? If so, I would gladly come ;-)


You're more of a "henchman", but OK ;)

(Anyone who is capable of compiling, debugging, valgrinding and
creating a makefile for a multi-source-file C and C++ program in Linux
would fall under the category of "expert" for this lecture)


i guess i might fall into that category, then.
i'll try to come. of-course, that means i'll tell them students to stick 
with windows and visual studio - unless they are courageous enough and 
stubborn enough for self-learning.


--guy


On 3/22/07, Ohad Lutzky <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>
> You know who you are :)
>
> It'll be useful to have a few more experts around for the Q&A session.
> Any volunteers?
>
> --
> Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
>
> Ohad Lutzky
>
>
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>



--
Peleg S.

 "Peace, love, and Linux" makes me think of a guy with
excessive
facial hair in a tidy t-shirt, shorts, and sandals saying "You can't use
that
distribution MAN" "You can't like, own an OS, MAN" (bash quote #4395)






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Re: [Haifux] An introductory of sorts

[guy keren]

Ohad Lutzky wrote:

On 2/4/07, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

and then you'll come and say "oh, we need to give the lecture about
debugging and developing on linux". wasn't it already agreed to re-run
it for the spring semester students?


Well, definitely, but this isn't what I had in mind. I was thinking
more along the lines of "there's this thing called Linux, and you'll
be using it this semester, and you'll hear lots of horror stories, but
here are a few cool things about it" - proceed to show off stuff like
desktop environments, package management, Beryl, LiveCDs... Stick a
bit of lightweight F/OSS ideology and history in there... that is,
something to make the people feel more at ease with Linux. Otherwise
the clash with the unknowns of the commandline one experiences in
Matam is often all that it takes to keep him locked in Proprietaria
forever.


well, go ahead and prepare this. then be ready to add the dev tools 
re-run ;)


--guy


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Re: [Haifux] An introductory of sorts

[guy keren]

Ohad Lutzky wrote:

It's that time again...

Spring semester coming up soon, and I was wondering what we can do to
pester non-linux-users around us :)

I was thinking something small, CS faculty, a few printed A4s. One
lecture, one hour, a bit CS-second-semester-oriented, but not
technical. That is, we should say something motivational about "you'll
have to use this anyway", and that's it.

What do you guys think?



and then you'll come and say "oh, we need to give the lecture about 
debugging and developing on linux". wasn't it already agreed to re-run 
it for the spring semester students?


--guy

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Re: [Haifux] Lecture suggestion: Open Solaris

[guy keren]

On Thu, 2007-01-18 at 08:39 +0200, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 08:34:17AM +0200, Rami Rosen wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Sun had released Open Solaris about a year and a half ago ,under
> > CDDL license; It is probably going to be changed soon to GPLv3 (See:
> > http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8979755794.html).
> > 
> > I suggest a general overview lecture about Open Solaris, which will
> > deal with Open Solaris open source model (with comparison to linux)
> > , Open Solaris advantages and disadvantages, and also with topics
> > like solaris streams ,solaris-linux interoperability, zones and the
> > like.
> > 
> > The lecture can be scheduled from 12/2/07 onward.
> 
> yes please!
> 
> Cheers,
> Muli

a "me too" vote ;)

--guy


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[Haifux] are we there yet? what's on monday?

[guy keren]

hi,

is ohad lutsky going with his lecture on this monday?

is the schedule on haifux's web site in sync with reality?

was there a lecture by peleg sapir last week?

inquiring minds want to know

--guy


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[Haifux] additions for today's LVM2 lecture

[guy keren]

here are some issues that were raised during today's LVM2 lecture, and
some answers i found for them:


1. the word for "silencing" the file-system (or application) is
'quiesce'. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiesce for a very
incomplete article.

2. Quiesce in reiserfs and ext3 - it appears there is integration
between snapshot creation and quiescing the file-system. this
integration is done in the kernel level as follows: before the snapshot
is created, the device mapper invokes a function of the block device
called "freeze_bdev". this function then will invoke a file-system
specific "sync_fs" function and later a function named
'write_super_lockfs' (if the file system supports these functions). in
reiserfs and ext3, this function commits any pending transactions,
putting the file-system in consistent state. since this operation also
blocks new I/O (until the snapshot creation was finished), we get a
consistent file-system.

3. the code that implements the old RAID levels (0, 1, 5, 6) indeed does
not use the new device mapper code-parts (like the dm-table). they just
placed all the source files in a single directory, to confuse the
reader ;)

4. when we create a read-write snapshot, and then mount the snapshot and
write to it, indeed the old (frozen) data is over-written on the
snapshot. there is no way to undo this, other then taking a snapshot of
the snapshot.

5. when a snapshot becomes full, it is switched to 'inactive' state -
it's not deleted from the system.

if there were other questions which i forgot, or new questions come to
mind, feel free to ask them here (or in private, if you prefer that).

--guy


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[Haifux] Slides for tomorrow (LVM2) - temporarily on my web site

[guy keren]

i just finished the slides and sent to the webmaster.

until they are on haifux's web site, you may read there from:

http://users.actcom.co.il/~choo/lvm2/

(for the "printers" - you have them also in "one big HTML file").

i assume i have errors in them, which you (or i) will find during the
lecture...

--guy


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[Haifux] Lecture announcement: LVM2 (Logical Volume Management) Under Linux

[guy keren]

This Monday (27.11.06), at 18:30, Haifa Linux Club will gather to hear
guy keren (i.e, me) talk about

   LVM2 (Logical Volume Management - 2nd version)

Abstract:
LVM is our way to say "no" to getting stuck with fixed-size disks, and
to having to heavily rely on backups. In an enterprise there is no way
to live without this. In our home linux machine, it can have its uses
too. In this lecture, we will show some parts of LVM2, from the point of
view of the administrator (on your PC - that's you) - as well as how
some of this is implemented. Our focus will be on LVM (Logical Volume
Management) and its features. LVM2 is part of the linux 2.6 kernel.

It is advised that listeners know about disks and partitions, how to
format them and how to
mount them.

We meet in Taub building, room 3. For instructions see:
http://haifux.org/where.html

Attendance is free, and you are all invited!

--guy


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Re: [Haifux] Proposition for a lecture next monday

[guy keren]

by the way, regarding timing of the lecture, since there is already a
promise to give a 'debugging in linux' lecture for the CS students next
week, and to avoid disrupting the normal club operations, this "linux,
GNUs and penguins" lecture will have to be done in 3 weeks from now.

this means that this week there'll be a standard meeting (about LVM2),
as far as i understand.

--guy


On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 04:28 +0200, Shai Shkolnitsky wrote:
 <אני מסכים עם גיא קרן.
 <אישית אני חושב שזה חשוב שכמה שיותר חברי חיפוקס יהיו נוכחים בהרצאה שלך,
 <שגם הם יוכלו לתת תשובות.
 <הרעיון של גיא לשם הוא נחמד ביותר, אם יורשה לי אני אציע וריאציה של השם
 <שלו: 
> "Linux, of GNUs and Penguins"
> 
> 
 <לדעתי שלושת הנושאים הכי חשובים בהרצאה הם (לוא דווקא בסדר זה): 
> 
> - "Where the hell is the "C:\" Drive- 
> 
> The major differences (and similarities) between Linux and Windows"
> 
> - "Linux, the myth of usability-it is sure as hell User Friendly- 
> 
> The major aspects of User Friendliness in Linux"
> 
> - "Open Source software, the rights are yours- 
> 
> The Ideas that drive the Open Source community"
> 
> 
 <אני חושב ששלושת אלה הם די והותר להרצאה של שעתיים. הרצאה על הקרנל, על
 <ההפצות השונות, על שורת הפקודה וכד' היא חשובה, אבל משנית בחשיבותה אם
 <אתה רוצה יותר אנשים שעוברים לעבוד עם לינוקס. 
 <הניסיון שלי עם משתמשי וינדוס הוא בערך כזה(לדעתי זה מאוד חשוב להבין איך
 <הם חושבים ותופסים את לינוקס כדי להסביר להם, צריך לדעת אילו מיתוסים
 <להפריך): 
 <היום (כבר אתמול) דיברתי עם חבר שלי, סטודנט להנדסת חשמל, הוא אמר לי
 <"אני נכנסתי לחוות לינוקס, לראות מה זה, איפה כונן סי?" 
> 
 <טענות האנטי לינוקס של אבא שלי הן כאלה:
 <"מי לעזאזל משמש בזה, מי צריך את זה?"
 <"זה בכלל לא ידידותי למשתמש, אי אפשר להשתמש בזה"
 <"אין אף תוכנה נורמלית בשביל לינוקס, אתה מתקין, ומה הלאה, איך אתה עובד
 <עם זה?" 
> 
 <קודם כל אתה צריך "לתת" לקהל שלך שיחון לינוקס-וינדוס. איזשהו אוסף של
 <מושגים שהם יכולים להבין, לקשר ולעשות אסוציאציות לוינדוס. לאחר מכן
 <תסביר להם שלינוקס, בניגוד מוחלט למיתוס היא ידידותית למשתמש ושמישה
 <ביותר, אפילו יותר מווינדוס (מגוון רחב של שפות ממשק, ממשק משתמש נוח
 <ואינטואיטיבי למשתמשים). אגב, חוות הלינוקס בטכניון היא לא דוגמה טובה.
 <היום הייתי בה, היא לא כזו שמישה. חוץ מזה, חושב להדגיש, שיש(!) המון
 <המון המון תוכנות ללינוקס שטובות אף יותר מאלה לווינדוס, וכמותן גדולה פי
 <עשרות מונים. 
> 
 <החלק הראשון של ההרצאה צריך להיות היסטוריה קצרה של גנו\לינוקס. סטלמן,
 <טורבלדס, ומה שביניהם. וכמובן מה הרעיון שעומד מאחורי תוכנה חופשית (למה
 <זה יותר מחינם, ולמה זה קיים בכלל). דווקא החלק הזה צריך להיות קצר יותר,
 <אחרת הקהל יירדם מהר מאוד, אם הוא ייכנס לעניין של לינוקס הוא יקרא על זה
 <לבד בהרחבה. ההיסטוריה השלמה והמלאה של הקוד הפתוח מתחילת הרעיון ועד
 <היום זה דווקא רעיון להרצאה מעניינת לחברי חיפוקס הלינוקסאים כבר. 
 <אני גם חושב שלא יזיק לעשות בעקבות ההרצאה שלך מסיבת התקנה (מאוד מאוד
 <מאוד כדאי, זה ימנע מאנשים להירתע מהתקנה כושלת).
> 
 <בשלב הבא, בתור הרצאה למתחילים (אוסף הרצאות שלדעתי צריך להיות בתחילת כל
 <שנה, עבור סטודנטים חדשים) צריך באמת להתמקד בלהסביר לקהל מה הן ההפצות
 <העיקריות, למה שורת פקודה זה לא פרמיטיבי וכו'. 
> 
 <באופן עקרון הרעיון שלך להרצאה הוא נהדר. היעדר מקור מידע היה הקושי
 <העיקרי שלי בלהתחיל להשתמש בלינוקס.
> 
 <נ.ב: אם אתה צריך כל סוג של עזרה לגבי ההרצאה הזו, אני אשמח לעזור.
> 


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Re: [Haifux] Proposition for a lecture next monday

[guy keren]

עדיף להשאיר את הפילוסופיה לשלב מאוחר יותר - לא להתחיל בזה את ההרצאה.
קודם תראו מה יש ומה זה, סובבו את שולחן העבודה לכל הכיוונים מצידי כדי
שאנשים יקשיבו, ואז תגידו להם "עבדנו עליכם - זו רק העטיפה" - ותרדו לפרטים
- פילוסופיה, כונן C, שורת הפקודה

   כמובן, מי שקובע מה יהיה בסוף, הוא מי שמתכנן את ההרצאה ומעביר אותה. כל
דברי הם הצעות בלבד, ואין עליהן שום אחריות ;)

   --גיא


On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 04:28 +0200, Shai Shkolnitsky wrote:
 <אני מסכים עם גיא קרן.
 <אישית אני חושב שזה חשוב שכמה שיותר חברי חיפוקס יהיו נוכחים בהרצאה שלך,
 <שגם הם יוכלו לתת תשובות.
 <הרעיון של גיא לשם הוא נחמד ביותר, אם יורשה לי אני אציע וריאציה של השם
 <שלו: 
> "Linux, of GNUs and Penguins"
> 
> 
 <לדעתי שלושת הנושאים הכי חשובים בהרצאה הם (לוא דווקא בסדר זה): 
> 
> - "Where the hell is the "C:\" Drive- 
> 
> The major differences (and similarities) between Linux and Windows"
> 
> - "Linux, the myth of usability-it is sure as hell User Friendly- 
> 
> The major aspects of User Friendliness in Linux"
> 
> - "Open Source software, the rights are yours- 
> 
> The Ideas that drive the Open Source community"
> 
> 
 <אני חושב ששלושת אלה הם די והותר להרצאה של שעתיים. הרצאה על הקרנל, על
 <ההפצות השונות, על שורת הפקודה וכד' היא חשובה, אבל משנית בחשיבותה אם
 <אתה רוצה יותר אנשים שעוברים לעבוד עם לינוקס. 
 <הניסיון שלי עם משתמשי וינדוס הוא בערך כזה(לדעתי זה מאוד חשוב להבין איך
 <הם חושבים ותופסים את לינוקס כדי להסביר להם, צריך לדעת אילו מיתוסים
 <להפריך): 
 <היום (כבר אתמול) דיברתי עם חבר שלי, סטודנט להנדסת חשמל, הוא אמר לי
 <"אני נכנסתי לחוות לינוקס, לראות מה זה, איפה כונן סי?" 
> 
 <טענות האנטי לינוקס של אבא שלי הן כאלה:
 <"מי לעזאזל משמש בזה, מי צריך את זה?"
 <"זה בכלל לא ידידותי למשתמש, אי אפשר להשתמש בזה"
 <"אין אף תוכנה נורמלית בשביל לינוקס, אתה מתקין, ומה הלאה, איך אתה עובד
 <עם זה?" 
> 
 <קודם כל אתה צריך "לתת" לקהל שלך שיחון לינוקס-וינדוס. איזשהו אוסף של
 <מושגים שהם יכולים להבין, לקשר ולעשות אסוציאציות לוינדוס. לאחר מכן
 <תסביר להם שלינוקס, בניגוד מוחלט למיתוס היא ידידותית למשתמש ושמישה
 <ביותר, אפילו יותר מווינדוס (מגוון רחב של שפות ממשק, ממשק משתמש נוח
 <ואינטואיטיבי למשתמשים). אגב, חוות הלינוקס בטכניון היא לא דוגמה טובה.
 <היום הייתי בה, היא לא כזו שמישה. חוץ מזה, חושב להדגיש, שיש(!) המון
 <המון המון תוכנות ללינוקס שטובות אף יותר מאלה לווינדוס, וכמותן גדולה פי
 <עשרות מונים. 
> 
 <החלק הראשון של ההרצאה צריך להיות היסטוריה קצרה של גנו\לינוקס. סטלמן,
 <טורבלדס, ומה שביניהם. וכמובן מה הרעיון שעומד מאחורי תוכנה חופשית (למה
 <זה יותר מחינם, ולמה זה קיים בכלל). דווקא החלק הזה צריך להיות קצר יותר,
 <אחרת הקהל יירדם מהר מאוד, אם הוא ייכנס לעניין של לינוקס הוא יקרא על זה
 <לבד בהרחבה. ההיסטוריה השלמה והמלאה של הקוד הפתוח מתחילת הרעיון ועד
 <היום זה דווקא רעיון להרצאה מעניינת לחברי חיפוקס הלינוקסאים כבר. 
 <אני גם חושב שלא יזיק לעשות בעקבות ההרצאה שלך מסיבת התקנה (מאוד מאוד
 <מאוד כדאי, זה ימנע מאנשים להירתע מהתקנה כושלת).
> 
 <בשלב הבא, בתור הרצאה למתחילים (אוסף הרצאות שלדעתי צריך להיות בתחילת כל
 <שנה, עבור סטודנטים חדשים) צריך באמת להתמקד בלהסביר לקהל מה הן ההפצות
 <העיקריות, למה שורת פקודה זה לא פרמיטיבי וכו'. 
> 
 <באופן עקרון הרעיון שלך להרצאה הוא נהדר. היעדר מקור מידע היה הקושי
 <העיקרי שלי בלהתחיל להשתמש בלינוקס.
> 
 <נ.ב: אם אתה צריך כל סוג של עזרה לגבי ההרצאה הזו, אני אשמח לעזור.
> 


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Re: [Haifux] Proposition for a lecture next monday

[guy keren]

אם אתה רוצה לעשות הרצאה כזו, אני מציע לדחות את ההרצאה שלי בשבוע - אין
טעם ליצור עומס גדול מדי על המועדון וחבריו. זה גם יאפשר לחלק מהחברים
הוותיקים יותר להגיע להרצאה שלך ולעזור לענות על שאלות.

לגבי ההרצאה עצמה - כדאי שתוודא שאתה יכול להכניס את כל מה שאתה רוצה, כולל
   הדגמות, בזמן סביר, ולהשאיר זמן להערות ביניים ושאלות של הקהל. נסה לבצע
סימולציה לפני כן מול מישהו שלא מכיר לינוקס (למשל אח-קטן, אם יש בנמצא, או
  משהו דומה(. זכור שהקהל צריך לא רק לשמוע אלא גם לקלוט - ותחושת הבטן שלי
 אומרת שכמות החומר שאתה מנסה להעביר כאן - היא גדולה מכדי להקלט באמת.

בהצלחה, ותודה על היוזמה.

   --גיא

   נ.ב. לגבי השם, מה בדבר "לינוקס - מבוא לתורת הפינגווינים"?


On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 22:10 +0200, Peleg Sapir wrote:
 <בעקבות ההרצאה האחרונה של חיפוקס (שהועברה ע"י אוהד לוצקי), בנושא תיכנות
 <בסביבת לינוקס, שיועדה עבור סטודנטים בקורסים מת"מ, מיבנה ומערכות הפעלה
 <- החלטתי שברצוני להעביר הרצאת מבוא לתוכנה חופשית/קוד פתוח ושימוש
 <בלינוקס. זאת מכיוון שלאחר ההרצאה יצא לי לשוחח עם חלק מאנשים בקהל,
 <שמעבר להתעניינות שהראו בנושא של תוכנה חופשית - התלוננו על חוסר הבנה של
 <השימוש, הן הכללי והן הספציפי לקורסים, במערכת יוניקסית, וזאת למרות
 <ההרצאה העניינית של אוהד. 
> 
 <הסיבה לכך, לדעתי, היא שההרצאה היתה ברמה קצת גבוהה מדי בשביל אנשים שעוד
 <אין להם כלל מושג בנושא , ביחוד כשמציגים מונחים שבאים ללא הסבר בסיסי
 <יותר, הדרוש להבנה ראשונית של המערכת (דבר שנובע, כמובן, מפאת חוסר
 <הזמן). 
> 
 <כאמור, אנשים הראו עניין בהרצאה בסיסית יותר שתכסה הן את הנושא של תוכנה
 <חופשית וקוד פתוח (חלקם, למשל, הופתעו לגלות שחלק נכבד מהכלים שדובר
 <עליהם בהרצאה הם חינמיים), והן את השימוש הראשוני במערכת.
> 
 <לאחר שיחה עם אלון אלטמן הגענו למסקנה שכדאי שהרצאה שכזו תיערך ביום שני
 <הקרוב, במקביל להרצאה המקצועית-יותר של גיא קרן, כמדומני, בחדר טאוב 3. 
> 
 <בהנחה ואכן תתקיים ההרצאה (תלוי בנכונות חיפוקס לרעיון), כותרתה תהיה
> "Introduction to open-source, free-software and linux" (האם למישהו יש
> רעיון לשםפ מוצלח יותר?)
> 
 <ותעסוק בנושאים הבאים:
> 
> Review of the history of open source and free software ideas
> 
> Review of the principles of a unix OS, and a short discussion about
> different unix-like OS's (irix, BSD, solaris...)
> 
> The history of linux and an introduction to using it: 
> 
> - File structure (e.g. what is home dir, why is there no "c:\" driver,
> where are what files, and the logic behind it, etc.)
> 
> - What is the kernel, what are the software packages, what is X /
> GNOME / etc. 
> 
> - Discussion about the different distros
> 
> - *Basic logic behind and use of the terminal
> 
 <*(הסיבה ללכך היא שבהרצאה האחרונה רבים אמרו שהם לא מבינים בכלל למה צריך
 <טרמינל, ומה זה בכלל)
> 
> 
> 
> Demos of different enviroments and softwares on a linux system
> 
 <להרצאה יתלווה מחשב נייד של מיכאל בר-דוד, עליו מותקנת הפצת אובונטו,
 <ובפרט מערכת "בריל" החדשה שמאפשרת שימוש בתכונות של שולחן-עבודה
 <תלת-מימדי. 
> 
 <רעיונות, הערות, ביקורת ומכתבי נאצה יתקבלו בברכה :-P
> 
> 
> -- 
> Peleg S.
> 
> ...the only pie I like is irrational.


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Re: [Haifux] Haifux 2.0 (was: Moving to Tuesday)

[guy keren]

ok. can you take it upon yourself to write a short list of topics for a
coherent set of SiL meetings? i can participate by directing (ha. i'm
avoiding the 'l' word) one of those meetings.

please write, along each meeting's topic, what it'll cover. note that it
is far easier to plan a 2-hours meeting then a 1-hour meeting - so
you'll have to be carefull to make sure the material is short enough for
a 1-hour meeting. the detail level must be high enough (at least in the
first few meetings), and come with live demonstrations.

--guy


On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 22:17 +0200, Ohad Lutzky wrote:
> Actually, my problem with the 'SiL' term is that it's rather vague. A
> better explanation of it on the site might be all that's required. My
> primary point, I guess, was more SiL. While we're at it, some more
> suggestions that popped up:
> 
> One suggestion - shorter lectures. 2-hour lectures are, well, long.
> This makes them difficult to prepare, and tends to swing the subjects
> towards the more complicated side. For example, a lecture I want to
> give is about package management in Debian-based distros - that is,
> the very basics - what a package manager is, how to use it, how and
> why apt-get, aptitude and synaptic are the same (with a short
> explanation on the unix tradition of having text-based applications
> with GUI frontends), things like that. I would find it difficult to
> fill two hours with this.
> 
> Furthermore - a two-hour lecture is a big chunk of time that many
> people simply can't afford (speaking from an undergrad point of view).
> "Two hours? But I got homework in some course to do... maybe I'll come
> for an hour". They don't show up either, because they figure - what's
> the point? If they show up for the first hour, they'll only get the
> introduction, and nothing interesting - and if they show up for the
> second - they won't know what's going on.
> 
> Of course, everybody remembers what a success the lightning talks
> were... So I guess this means that for some topics (and in my opinion
> - most topics), shorter is better. Perhaps not 7-minutes short, but
> short.
> 
> And a final reason for shortening the lectures leads me to my next
> point - discussion. Mailing lists are nice, and I don't know about you
> guys - but I personally really enjoy just sitting with people,
> discussing Linux and FOSS stuff. Be the subject some sort of cool
> software I found, or stuff that's happening on Slashdot, or whatnot.
> It's a rich community with much to discuss, and it's often more
> enjoyable in person. Now, for the last four semesters I could often
> get hold of Boaz or Haggai, but not always, and never any of the older
> guys. Also, very often I have people come up to me and tell me that
> they have some kind of hardware issue on their laptop, or they need
> someone to explain something to them about Linux - and I would tell
> them to come to Haifux. And after the lecture, people would stay and
> help out - but it was late by then, and things would be rushed.
> 
> I know I'm not making too much of a coherent point... and I'm
> certainly not going for an "Is there any new business? Any old
> business? Minutes of our last meeting" kind of thing, but I do think
> some of the focus should be taken off lectures.
> 
> On 10/31/06, guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > (first - i've no problem with tuesdays as well).
> >
> > On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Alon Altman wrote:
> >
> > >  I think the format we had - alternating between advanced and entry-level
> > > lectures (standard and SiL lectures) is the best.
> >
> > there are two issues we didn't solve with this:
> >
> > 1. preparing W2L is tedious. it always was - and it became worse every
> >year. we over-engineer it, and eventually get relatively poor results.
> >
> >i sent an email about this (that seem to have got lost) - that after
> >talking with eli, we think a 2-meetings session is enough - one for
> >telling people why they should want to try linux, and in the end giving
> >them ubuntu CDs. 2 weeks after - a Q&A meeting to answer questions
> >people stumbled upon. eli was prepared to handle the first meeting. the
> >rest of us will then handle the Q&A meeting (mostly by showing up).
> >
> > 2. we have no mechanism for propagation between SiL and the non-SiL
> >lectures. moving frmo W2L to SiL is trivial, since SiL only requires
> >W2L knowledge. however, there's no clear point of when people can feel
> >safe to move from SiL to non-SiL.
> >

Re: [Haifux] Haifux 2.0 (was: Moving to Tuesday)

[guy keren]

(first - i've no problem with tuesdays as well).

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Alon Altman wrote:

>  I think the format we had - alternating between advanced and entry-level
> lectures (standard and SiL lectures) is the best.

there are two issues we didn't solve with this:

1. preparing W2L is tedious. it always was - and it became worse every
   year. we over-engineer it, and eventually get relatively poor results.

   i sent an email about this (that seem to have got lost) - that after
   talking with eli, we think a 2-meetings session is enough - one for
   telling people why they should want to try linux, and in the end giving
   them ubuntu CDs. 2 weeks after - a Q&A meeting to answer questions
   people stumbled upon. eli was prepared to handle the first meeting. the
   rest of us will then handle the Q&A meeting (mostly by showing up).

2. we have no mechanism for propagation between SiL and the non-SiL
   lectures. moving frmo W2L to SiL is trivial, since SiL only requires
   W2L knowledge. however, there's no clear point of when people can feel
   safe to move from SiL to non-SiL.

there's no need to add more categories. what you call "basic" should be
marked as "SiL". if a certain meeting requires prior knowlege - it should
be stated on a per-meeting bases. if we have too many categories, people
will likely get confused.

--guy

> As long as people know the
> lectures are bi-weekly and come in the appropriate weeks, we both have a
> weekly meeting for keeping the club alive, while each group has a chance to
> hear lectures in their own level. Recall, that haifux was bi-weekly until we
> started W2L and SiL.
>
> Maybe we should have more diffrentiation between levels:
> - W2L - a fixed-length lecture series for those totally new to Linux, given
>   once per year, maybe coordinated nationally and with a linux day.
> - SiL - standard lectures that bring a linux newbie to become a linux
>   hacker. Things like shells and editors, installing from source, compiling
>   the kernel, users and permissions, filesystems and mounts, etc. Probably
>   to be given in alternating weeks after W2L.
> - Basic lectures - lectures which require only knowledge from W2L and maybe
>   a bit of SiL to be understood. Mostly focus on "how do I ... in Linux",
>   where "..." is something an average user might want to do, or at least
>   consider.
> - Social/Planning meetings - preperation/feedback for W2L/SiL/Linuxday,
>   promoting linux, etc.
> - Advanced lectures - All the rest we know and love: programming,
>   internals, security protocols, lambda calculus, ...
>
>  It seems like the queue we have now is mostly advanced lectures, though my
> lecture can be considered "basic".
>
>  Alon
>
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Ohad Lutzky wrote:
> > Those I can arrange for - infancy problems are quite easy to generate,
> > no doubt, but I'm also talking about the people. Many CS undergrads
> > had some interest in Haifux for a long time, but felt alienated by the
> > high level of the lectures, and the low undergrad attendance. I
> > believe those two can be fixed by
> >
> > A. 'Dumbing down' the lectures. That sounds awful, doesn't it? But I'm
> > talking about encouraging additional entry-level lectures. I can put
> > my money (=time) where my mouth is, and give those myself, and I have
> > some more people in mind which I'll be talking to about them giving
> > lectures.
> >
> > B. Working with the CS undergrad courses. This semester I mentioned my
> > VIM lecture to a Matam TA, who mentioned it to Kimchi, who mentioned
> > it to his class... and Taub 3 instantly became packed. Unfortunately,
> > I didn't know that was going to happen, so the lecture was quite a bit
> > too-high level. Still, almost everybody stayed for the full two hours,
> > and several came for more lectures.
> >
> >> I'm not saying that we oldies should quit.
> >
> > Please don't! None of us youngsters have the experience and knowledge
> > required to give the interesting high-level lectures, which we (and
> > I'm speaking for the more advanced users) really enjoy.
> >
> >> BTW, I'm fine with tuesday.
> >
> > \m/
> >
> >
>
> --
> This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540
> GPG public key at http://8ln.org/pubkey.txt
> Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24
> --
> -=[ Random Fortune ]=-
> Solutions are obvious if one only has the optical power to observe them
> over the horizon.
>   -- K. A. Arsdall
>
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>

-- 
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 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy


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Re: [Haifux] Tomorrow's lecture is postponed

[guy keren]

i think you should have written "tomorrow, the Haifa linux club will NOT
hold a lecture about "GPL 3", not to be given by yohai  ;)

hold on to your houses, everyone.
be safe,

--guy

On Sun, 2006-07-16 at 14:34 +0300, Orr Dunkelman wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > Due to the situation, the Technion was "officially closed" today till the 
> > situation gets better. Thus, we were asked not to hold the meeting 
> > tomorrow.
> > 
> > Once everything gets better, we'll resume the club's meetings.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > 
> > --
> > Orr Dunkelman,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > "If it wasn't for C, we'd be writing programs in BASI, PASAL, and OBOL", 
> > anon
> > 
> > Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html
> > GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3  2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA
> > (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys.)
> > 
> > --
> > Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org)
> > To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 


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Re: [Haifux] Asking for help with Linux comilation.

[guy keren]

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006, Joseph wrote:

> (.text+0x91): undefined reference to `_libintl_gettext'

you'll have to hack the makefiles in order to get this working - the
symbol you mentioned is probably part of GNU's gettext library, used for
internationalization support. search for info about it on the web, or find
a forum dedicated to cross-compiling to ask this on.

--guy

> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I’m trying to compile a snapgear Linux version by using ARM cross compiler, 
> under Cygwin.
>
> The order of building is this:
>
> 1) unzip the tar package of ARM and snapgear.
>
>
>
> 2) compile and link
>
>   make xconfig
>
>   choosing: a) Linux kernel version 2.6.x
>
>  b) platform, Intet for network processor IXDP465
>
>   make
>
>
>
> The problem (as you can see) is with make, could you please advise what’s the 
> problem and how I can solve it.
>
> Every help is appreciated very much.
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] /snapgear
>
> $ make
>
> /usr/local/bin/arm-linux-gcc: /usr/local/bin/arm-linux-gcc: cannot execute 
> binary file
>
> scripts/kconfig/conf.o:conf.c:(.text+0x91): undefined reference to 
> `_libintl_gettext'
>
> scripts/kconfig/conf.o:conf.c:(.text+0xa5): undefined reference to 
> `_libintl_gettext'
>
> scripts/kconfig/conf.o:conf.c:(.text+0xb9): undefined reference to 
> `_libintl_gettext'
>
> scripts/kconfig/conf.o:conf.c:(.text+0x7c9): undefined reference to 
> `_libintl_gettext'
>
> scripts/kconfig/conf.o:conf.c:(.text+0xe54): undefined reference to 
> `_libintl_gettext'
>
> scripts/kconfig/conf.o:conf.c:(.text+0xea0): more undefined references to 
> `_libintl_gettext' follow
>
> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
>
> make[3]: *** [scripts/kconfig/conf] Error 1
>
> make[2]: *** [silentoldconfig] Error 2
>
> make[1]: *** [include/linux/autoconf.h] Error 2
>
> make: *** [linux] Error 1
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] /snapgear
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance and best regards;
>
> Joseph Halloun.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
>

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Re: [Haifux] Asking for help with Cygwin.

[guy keren]

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Joseph wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Could you please help me with the issue of installing the unzip command
> under Cygwin, and from where Ican download it.

if it must be under cygwin, then i imagine you can download it from
cygwin's web site. their installer allows you to choose which packages
exactly to download and install - invoke it and search if it has the
relevant package ('zip', i presume).

(www.cygwin.com, ofcourse)

-- 
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 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] PR [Was: Money]

[guy keren]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Orr Dunkelman wrote:

> I'll make some A4 and bring few copies to the next meeting (Ohad's
> lecture), which you are all welcome to take and distribute. I'll also put
> an online version if you can't come and still want to help...

please get me some copies to put at intel - i'll start with 5 copies and
then we'll see how it goes. (i'll give them to a friend to place them up
there - he said he'll do it).

-- 
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 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] re-question: a talk about using FOSS-only in a startup-chik

[guy keren]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Orna Agmon wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, guy keren wrote:
>
> > i proposed this once as a hole-plague, and i propose this again now.
> > the talk will cover how a very small startup-chik used only FOSS tools to
> > develope its product (which is proprietary). i'll discuss the thought
> > processes, briefly cover the tools used, how non-foss programmers took
> > this, and where this process might be repeated.
> >
> > since the company was closed and acquired (in that order), i'll be able to
> > talk about some drawbacks of this process, that i didn't forsee
> > beforehand.
> >
> > this can either be a full-time talk (2 hours), or a one-hour talk (in case
> > someone comes up with a complementary talk).
>
> Since it has a clear industry appeal, how about using this lecture as a
> "bate" when publishing at intel/other companies?

i don't think its a good idea. publishing a single lecture, IMO, will
misslead people - they should be given info about the past and future, so
they can judge. we don't want one-timers - we want people who'll come more
then once. besides, putting an ad in a large company with the word
"startup" is provocative ;)

we should just do what eli suggested (publish the web site with a few
words about the club). let them see what's available in the future, so
they can make up their own minds.

what i'd also put on the poster is encouragement to look at the future and
past lectures sections. otherwise, from a glance at the first page only,
people might miss the point (even thought it's written quite clearly on
the page - it is hidden at the lower-part of the page, and as we know,
many people odn't realy read ;)  ).

-- 
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[Haifux] re-question: a talk about using FOSS-only in a startup-chik

[guy keren]

i proposed this once as a hole-plague, and i propose this again now.
the talk will cover how a very small startup-chik used only FOSS tools to
develope its product (which is proprietary). i'll discuss the thought
processes, briefly cover the tools used, how non-foss programmers took
this, and where this process might be repeated.

since the company was closed and acquired (in that order), i'll be able to
talk about some drawbacks of this process, that i didn't forsee
beforehand.

this can either be a full-time talk (2 hours), or a one-hour talk (in case
someone comes up with a complementary talk).

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] Money

[guy keren]

i suggest we try to make a test-run at intel, for a couple of reasons:

1. they use linux quite extensively (even thought mostly as a platform to
   run their programs, which are not linux specific, althought some
   actually work with linux itself - drivers and all).

2. many people there live in the haifa vicinity

3. there are many many people there, so there's a chance to grab a few.

4. althought IBM is closer, they have their own linux club, so i assume
   we'll have less success attracting people from there.

note: i have a friend who works there, i will check with him how feasible
it is to get permission to place haifux posters in there.

note 2: i still haven't managed to make him come to lectures, althought
he's been using linux since 1993 ;)

note 3: i think we have a problem with cars entrance to the technion,
which makes many (somewhat lazy) people avoid coming. perhaps we can come
to some deal with the technion's authorities regarding this (hoping it
does not back-fire - "what? who are they? they should be bannished!").

--guy

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Eli Billauer wrote:

> Orna Agmon wrote:
>
> >4.In order to get people who are interested in Linux to come to Haifux,
> >listen and contribute, we need to PR Linux where Linux is of intererest,
> >in English as well as in Hebrew:
> >
> >
> Ah, that was the next issue I wanted to talk about.
>
> I got to know about Haifux because of a A4-sized flyer, hung on a
> temporary billboard in Meyer building. I wrote down the old and
> complicated web address (was it linuxclub.il.eu.org?) and visited the site.
>
> Whatsup and Hamakor sites are reached mostly by those who are already in
> the community. The more interesting question is how many of Technion's
> CS students realize that there actually is a club running on a regular
> basis. Not to mention Haifa university. Or even think about hi-tec
> companies in Haifa.
>
> So the big message of today is Haifux.org. A flier with a large penguin,
> that address, and some text explaining very shortly what the club is
> about (or only teasing) is where I would put the money. And will at request.
>
> Because simple B&W fliers on billboards will do the job, and printing
> 200 of them, which is enough to swamp any relevant place, will cost less
> than 50 NIS. If someone prints them, I've got no problem taking that
> kind of expense (and so are several others, I suppose).
>
> The big question is whether these fliers will indeed find themselves
> where they should.
>
>  Eli
>
>
>

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[Haifux] 13/3 Haifux meeting: nothing like the SAN

[guy keren]

(since it looks there was no reminder, i'm sending one myself.
 how. self-promoting ;)

tomorrow, 13-march-2006, we'll meet in haifux for a talk, by your
not-so-humble host, guy keren (AKA me), titled "nothing like the SAN - a
fabric tale about channels". this will deal half-and-half with SAN
(Storeage Area Network)in general, and SAN with Linux.

i'll touch issues that are mostly relevant for Linux in large enterprises,
but also talk along the path about issues relevant to PC owners (e.g. what
is SCSI, what is LVM, etc).

if you wanted to haer the ultimate answer to Linux, the SANiverse and
everything else - this is the place to be.

we meet in the Technion, in that TAUB computer science building, room 3 (i
think), at 18:30-20:30.

see you,
-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy


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[Haifux] OT: job offer: part-time student programmer job in nesher

[guy keren]

hi,

the company i work in, store-age (www.storeage.com) is looking to hire a
CS (or similar) student for a programming job. the job is part-time (2
working days a week, flexible hours). note that the job is not
linux-specific, but rather a multi-platform one, and lots of
perl will be involved ;)  (at least initially).

qualifications:

- 5th semester (or higher)
- good at learning and at working independently
- advantage for a previous work experience in programming/system
  administration.
- highly motivated, good communications skills.

if anyone is interested, please send me your CV. if you have questions
regarding the job, contact me out of the list.

thanks,
-- 
guy

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Re: [Haifux] quick lecture idea: using open-source for a proprietary application (was: Re: [Haifux] Anyone for a quickreplacement?)

[guy keren]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006, Orna Agmon wrote:

> sounds great in general - but no rush, we are settled for this week. Take
> your time to prepare it.

i see alon's lecture is still listed on the web site as tomorrow's
lecture. is this correct?

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[Haifux] quick lecture idea: using open-source for a proprietary application (was: Re: [Haifux] Anyone for a quickreplacement?)

[guy keren]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Alon Altman wrote:

> Hi,
>  I'm not sure I'll be able to prepare my lecture on time for this Monday.
> Is anyone here willing to replace me?

i could sketch up something about a project i worked on in a smallish
startup company - in which i'll depict how we used open source software to
get a head-start.

i will cover what we did, what base software we needed, and eventually
what it led to when the company's IP were acquired by a very proprietary
organization.

(anyone interested? if so - please write it up on the site).

obviously, i won't have slides for this - but then, the best lectures are
those that use no slides ;)

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Re: [Haifux] Ruby tutorial

[guy keren]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 01:47:15AM +0200, guy keren wrote:
>
> > i once started reading a tutorial on ruby, just to see what's all the fuss
> > about, and gave out in the middle - if i see no idea after reading for
> > half an hour, i dim the whole exercisepointless.
>
> Ah, but what do you think of haskell? and the bonus question, was it
> invented by a japanese?

i didn't bother reading anything about haskell - i am prejudiced against
this language due to social reasons mostly.

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Re: [Haifux] Ruby tutorial

[guy keren]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 11:07:13PM +0200, Ohad Lutzky wrote:
> > All present hackers, you'll much enjoy this - an excellent Ruby tutorial. 
> > Starts
> > out slow, but proceeds with really cool examples.
> >
> > http://tryruby.hobix.com
>
> If I may troll a bit:why ruby? what does it have that (pick your
> favorite language) doesn't have?

it was written by a japanese - that should make it different ;)

i once started reading a tutorial on ruby, just to see what's all the fuss
about, and gave out in the middle - if i see no idea after reading for
half an hour, i dim the whole exercise pointless.

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Re: [Haifux] compiling

[guy keren]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, yakouba abaya wrote:

> suppose i have :ABC.h  ,  A.c ,  B.c  , C.c
> is it possible to build all threesource files to one object file ?

yes - by building a library (static library or shared library).

for info:
http://users.actcom.co.il/~choo/lupg/tutorials/libraries/unix-c-libraries.html

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Re: [Haifux] Scheduling season

[guy keren]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005, Orna Agmon wrote:

> Just name the (far away) date when you want to commit to giving the two
> lectures you volunteered to give.

you may schedule the first lecture (SAN) to sometime around end of
february/beginning of march.

the second lecture'd better go on sometime around may.

i can't give a more specific date right now...

> We will wait with scheduling the SILs re-runs. However, new SILS should be
> planned now.

you are referring to SiL lectures to people from previous years, then, i
gather?

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Re: [Haifux] Scheduling season

[guy keren]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005, Orna Agmon wrote:

> Not Duck Season, nor Rabbit Season, but:
>
> Scheduling of the 2006 season has officially begun. Please consider:
>
> *topics you would like to talk about, which are of interest to the club
> members

assuming this is far, far in the future (more then 3 month from now), i
thought about giving a lecture regarding SANs, fiber channel and linux (1
hour of talking about SANs and fiber-channel, and one hour of talking
about linux issues with SANs).

for an even later date, i might try to prepare a lecture about LVM - how
to use it, and how it works internally - covering creation of resizeable
logical disks, LVM signatures, device layering, creating snapshots and the
like.

> *topics you cannot talk about, but would like to hear about this year

i would like to hear a lecture about kexec/kdump (the latest attempt at
supplying crush-dump support for linux) - both how to set it up and use
it, and how it works internally (and in what cases it does not work).

> *SIL lectures you think should be repeated, out of the bank of lectures we
> have already given: http://haifux.org/sil.html.

i think we should see the turn-over for the W2L series - and make a
last-minute decision about SIL based on that.

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[Haifux] Re: [W2L] Re: [Haifux] Re: [W2L] unanswered questions

[guy keren]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Orr Dunkelman wrote:

> 100 ppl arrived to the first lecture.
>
> ~60 came to your lecture.
>
> ~20 came to the following lecture.

a-ha. i think that we can conclude that we need to do a 2-lecture series
only. the first one will be made of a very short demonstration plus FOSS
talk.

the second one should demonstrate system installation + configuring a
driver for e.g. a conexant soft-modem, or an nvidia video controller
(these things became eay enough that they often work out-of-the-box
without having to read too much). using 2 machines will make it possible
to squeeze this into a single hour (beshitat "bemikre hachinoti merosh").

at the end of the 2nd lecture we can have a vote _of the audiance_
regarding how many want to come to an installation party. this vote will
set if we're having an installation party or not.

this, together with the creation of a web-site that contains all the
material in hebrew that i described here 1-2 month back, should probably
be enough for those who want to get started.

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guy

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[Haifux] haifux Lecture tomorrow: sign of the times

[guy keren]

copied from www.haifux.org:
--
 Signs of the Time - by Guy Keren
Abstract

* 1. time zones, summer time and zic.
* 2. keeping machines synced in time.
* 3. sub-second sleeps.
* 4. "accurate" select-based timers - avoiding the time warp dance.
* 5. timing and profiling.

most of this is about programming in C, some of this is about system
administration for your home and your office.
-

the usual place: Haifa, Technion, computer science faculty (TAUB
building), room 3, at 18:30. see http://www.haifux.org/

be there!
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[Haifux] laptop with sound for tomorrow's haifux lecture?

[guy keren]

anyone is coming to the lecture tomorrow and bringing a laptop that has
properly configured sound support, and is willing to loan it for running
the lecture on?

please let me know in advance, so i could transfer the material to you
before the lecture (i was threatened that network *might* be down).

the sound thing is optional, but i'd realy like to have working sound. i
imagine laptops have internal speakers, so there's no need for external
ones, right?

thanks,
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Re: [Haifux] iptables with --uid-owner

[guy keren]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Eli Billauer wrote:

> I hope one of you paranoids out there can help me with this.
>
> Problem:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] iptables -A OUTPUT -m owner --uid-owner root -j ACCEPT
> iptables: Invalid argument
>
> I'm running iptables v1.2.5 under a 2.4.21 kernel for i686. The
> ipt_owner module exists, and was actually autoloaded.

on my system, this works fine. i'm using redhat's kernel, 2.4.18-17.7.x .

did you:

1. look in /var/log/messages while running this command?

2. strace this command?

if not - shame on you

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Re: [Haifux] W2L meeting

[guy keren]

by the way this looks, i think that a missing piece is a web site that
we will give to people, and which will contain instructions about how to
get from nothing, to a machine connected to the net, with development
environemnts (for the programmers), hebrew set up in everything, etc, in
the "do-it-yourself" method.

i will try to collect the material needed for this, and prepare this site
(in hebrew, i gather?). it could have good use beyond w2l, too.

i'll prepare a layout (not graphical design - a schematic layout) for how
i view this and post it when it's done.

--guy

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, Orr Dunkelman wrote:

> As part of today's meeting we had the following series in mind:
>
> Two tracks: Technical and non-technical.
>
> First lecture: Joint lecture, the blitz lecture. Many dazzling demo's.
> technically no slides, but mostly presentations. Thelist of things to
> present TBD later.
>
> Non technical: second lecture - why linux. FOSS, money, ideology issues.
>
> Technical: second lecture - install + network
>third lecture - basic admin + hebrew (+ little shell)
>fourth lecture - How to move on - RTFM, asking questions,
> solving problems, finishing stuff we didn't cover in third lecture.
>
> In a nutshell: the technical people should understand a bit how things
> work in Linux. We give mostly demoes, but have an ordered explaination and
> "HOWTOs" in the website.
>
> Lectures: 2 X 45/50 min. with 10-15 minute break.
>
> 
>
> PR: We need slogan. something catchy good and useful.
>
> Ayelet (EzAton's wife) has volunteered to help with design of posters
> again. This time, posters are to have short text (up to 30 words). I guess
> we'll add next to these posters, posters with the time tables and some
> other data (which can be of much lesser quality, i.e., black-white and
> non-color).
>
> Shlomi Atar and Ayelet will design together a website (Shlomi is a
> professional designer). Ohad Lotzky will make sure the website is w3c.
>
> Open fronts:
> - Posters: text + hanging
> - Fliers: do we need them? if so, design+text+distribution
> - Websites: banners, links, etc.
> - Forums
> - papers (especailly e-papers).
> - blogs?
>
> I need soliders. People willing to invest time in hanging (inside the
> Technion this might be relatively easy, but we still need backups).
>
> --
>
> Big issues still open:
>
> 1. InstaParty/Linux Day - do we take the effort? On one hand last times
> were quite a fiasco. On the other, with enough PR - things may be much
> better.
>
> 2. Distro - which distro to work with?
>
> 3. People - volunteering to do stuff...
>
> ---
>
> Some dates & interfaces:
>
> - New website design, operational on 23/AUG (content to be added later).
> takes into consideration the fact that there are other LUGs. (shlomiA +
> Ayelet, technical supervision - Ohad)
>
> - Slogan - I need someone that handles the choosing of a slogan. Mainly:
> asking for slogans, sorting them out, and finding the good one. First
> volunteer, first deals with that.
>
> - Posters & Fliers (if needed) - design + Text finished by 23/SEP.
> Needed: someone to handle texts (I believe each LUG would need to add its
> own text to the info posters). someone to handle the text on "ad" poster.
>
> - Lectures making & lecturers - needed: someone to manager this aspect.
> volunteers for managing this, please send me mail. Times: chosing
> manager: 14/AUG. Writing the lectures: Alpha version - 14/SEP, Beta -
> 1/OCT, final - 15/OCT. Also responsible on manning the lectures (some of
> them may need two lecturers, or more precisely - lecturer+ assistant).
>
> - PR: Needed: people willing to put posters, talk with schools etc. I
> suggest to divide this into 3 major categories:
> * schools - needed a manager that motivates poeple to talk with schools,
> etc.
> * electronic PR - manager to deal with forums, websites, banners, etc.
> * "regular" PR - manager to deal with hanging posters, prinitng, fiers,
> etc.
>
> - Sponsoring: I think hamakor can really help with that, especially with
> national sponsors (those sponsoring all three clubs). Volunteer to handle
> this?
>
> - Finding other LUGs doing this - It'd be nice if Telux and JLC would tell
> us soon whetehr they are with us or not. If other LUG wish to joing, it'd
> be nice to locate them now.
>
> 
>
> comments, flames, etc. - please shout now...
>
> btw, if the nice people of hamakor can reinit the [EMAIL PROTECTED], that 
> would
> be nice.
>
> also, it was suggested to try and get w2l.org.il.
>
> --
> Orr Dunkelman,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "If it wasn't for C, we'd be writing programs in BASI, PASAL, and OBOL", anon
>
> Spammers: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~orrd/spam.html
> GPG fingerprint:C2D5 C6

Re: [Haifux] lecture suggestion: "Signs of the times"

[guy keren]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Orr Dunkelman wrote:

> I say yes.
>
> Even though 15/8 may already be reserved (as I've told in yesterday
> lecture which was very good, btw).

unfortunately i couldn't come there yesterday, so i wasn't aware that this
date is taken. that's actually better - if 15-aug is taken, then i'll take
29-aug-2005. can someone who knows if the 15-aug is taken for sure, please
update the 'future' lectures on the web site?

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[Haifux] lecture suggestion: "Signs of the times"

[guy keren]

how about a lecture that discusses several small time and timing issues
with Linux:

1. time zones, summer time and zic.
2. keeping machines synced in time.
3. sub-second sleeps.
4. "accurate" select-based timers - avoiding the time warp dance.
5. timing and profiling.

most of this is about programming in C, some of this is about system
administration for your home and your office.

if there's interest, i can do this after august penguin (15-aug-2005).

-- 
guy

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 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] C++ STL object

[guy keren]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, yakoub wrote:

> i'm using microsoft only because my course staff required this .
> and course staff are under budget so i'm asking you people
>
>
> hash_map H, S;
>
> for( .. ;... ;... )
> H.insert();
>
> ofstream out("tmp",ios::binary);
> out.write((char*)&H,sizeof(H)); <= write H to file

this is no way to write the hash_map into a file. you're writing the
contents of the object 'H', which probably contains pointers to
dynamically-allocated memory. this does not write the actual elements of
the hash_map into the file.

> out.flush();
> ifstream in("tmp",ios::binary);
> in.read((cahr*)&S,sizeof(H)); <= read H from file into S

so now you have to objects, 'H' and 'S', containing pointers to the same
data objects. when you delete both objects, you'll have a double-free of
each of these pointers, which will probably cause a crash.

> after this H.size()==S.size() and data are equal
> but destructor of S naturally doesn't work
> please read bellow for further info

you should enumerate all the objects in the hash table (using iterators),
and store each of them seperately into the file (and NOT via your method -
what if one of the objects contains pointers too?). the only think you may
store into a file is a native type (int, char, characters list, etc).

--guy

p.s. this has nothing to do with the operating system or the compiler.
this is about understanding memory management in C++.

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Re: [Haifux] Real-time write on *ANY* filesystem

[guy keren]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Eli Billauer wrote:

> guy keren wrote:
>
> > I don't think it's the "disk gets full". i think its "the page-cache gets
> > full". try this: get a partition that is already quite full, and run the
> > test on it. you will not see this problem.
>
> Well, you may get other results if you test it, but what I saw was that
> if the partition was about to be full, I got one behaviour. Ran the same
> test after deleting some gigas of data from the partition, got something
> much better. Back and forth. This is how I reached the conclusion.

so it _could_ be that due to fragmentation, instead of writing a large set
of data consecutively, the system wrote this large set of data in
several write commands on different parts of the hard drive.

> The question I find appealing in this context is when the filesystem
> looks for free blocks. If it does it only by demand, this would explain
> what happens.

the file system contains a list of all free blocks. it looks for a free
block _from this list_ when there is a need for a new free block.
furthermore, it usually does not allocate a single block - rather, it
tries to pre-allocate several consecutive blocks, assuming they'll soon be
needed. it does this in order to avoid spreading the file all over the
disk.

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Re: [Haifux] Real-time write on *ANY* filesystem

[guy keren]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Eli Billauer wrote:


It turns out that it's not a FAT issue, but that the same problem occurs
on ext3 systems as well. I've written a small program to test the delays
between writes, and the results are not very encouraging. Specially when
the disk getsfull (it always does, doesn't it?).


i don't think it's the "disk gets full". i think its "the page-cache gets
full". try this: get a partition that is already quite full, and run the
test on it. you will not see this problem.

or: get a very very large partition (e.g. 30GB free space) and run it
there - you'll notice the problem when the ammount of data you wrote
_lately_ gets large.

the page cache of the linux system is, by default, tuned for overall
throughput, not for worst-case-per-I/O. i don't think that changing the
elevator algorithm will help. things i would try:

1. what muli said, using O_DIRECT would help, but turn all the I/O into
  synchronous mode, which might give you a too slow throughput (can't
  tell without trying). to overcome this, your will need a combination of
  application-based buffering and direct/raw I/O. e.g. taking the source
  of mbuffer, making sure it works with O_DIRECT, or even with a 'raw'
  device (available on some linux distributions, not all).

yes, this is a problem with the linux system (as a whole).

--guy



In my opinion, this should concert anyone who want to use a Linux box
for storing a data stream (audio, video, whatever).

I've attached the source of the program I used. Basically, it loops on
writing 32kB chunks of data to a file, creating a list of number telling
how much time (in microseconds) elapsed since the last loop (to stdout).
There are two modes of testing: One is to let it write as fast as
possible, and the second is to put delays between writes, which
simulates waiting for incoming data. If there is enough room, the
program will write slightly less than 2 GB (guess why?).

Since Linux is a multitasking system, the results are not exactly
repeatable. But the general impression is that writing to FAT or on
ext3, on my laptop or on my desktop, they all behave more or less the same.

First test regards full-speed write. Data was simply written as fast as
possible. For anon-full partition, the write operation dwelled
typically 5.5 ms, with occasional bursts of 0.7-0.9 *seconds* delay on
the write operation. When the partition gets full, things get even
nastier. Several seconds of blocking was observed. 5 seconds, and up to
14 seconds delay typically appeared a few times for a 2 GB writing session.

Then I added a short sleep in the loop, in order to simulate data
written at ~ 3MB/sec (which is reasonable for video capturing). This is
far below the disk's physical capicity. The disk LED showed occasional
flushes.

Results: For a non-full partition, occasional peaks of up to 60ms were
observed, which is something one can live with, probably. At 3 MB/s this
means 180 kB stuck in the buffer. But when the partition started to get
full, peaks of 0.2-0.3 seconds started to appear. The latter means 900
kB waiting to go out, and this maybe explains why I originally had problems.

If you want to see how your system behaves, just compile the attached
code and go:
./writefat output-junk-data-file > listfile

The list of loop timings will be in listfile. Use your favourite number
cruncher to view graphs. (The program's name is due to "historic
reasons"...) If you want to test the slower writing speeds, check the
typical delay in the listfile, or see how fast the output file grows.
The sleep period defined in the program itself is not reliable, since
the operating system may not be able to sleep for too short periods.

And finally: Does an RAM FIFO help? Surprisingly, the answer is no. I
did the following:

mknod mypipe p
mbuffer -i mypipe -o /fatfs/output-file &
./writefat mypipe > listfile

and was quite surprised to find delays of 0.2 sec. BTW, mbuffer seems to
force the data to be flushed to disk much more often. The disk LED
showed that writes occured all the time, unlike the direct write to
file, in which flushes occured occasionally. And "mypipe" and "logfile"
are on an ext3, while outfile-file is on FAT.

Insights, anybody?

  Eli

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[Haifux] ascii art lightning URL

[guy keren]

for anyone interested, the short html page for the ASCII art light, is
found at
http://users.actcom.co.il/~choo/lightning-ascii-art/lightning-ascii-art.html

just note: the tetris game is based on the winner in 'best game' category
of the IOCCC contest of 1989 (go to http://www0.us.ioccc.org/years.html
and search for 'tromp').

-- 
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 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] Training timetable

[guy keren]

(i know i'm not orna, but i felt like responding anyway).

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Yael Vaya wrote:

> Hi Orna,
>
> According to the kids they are avaliable for training from 10.07.05
> (untill July they are on camp, tyol shnati etc). They can make it Friday
> mornings, and during the week at the afternoon's (even from 18:00), hope
> this is ok.
>
> Would you like to have one hour of training and one extra hour of
> practice each week?

this will be indeed a good idea. by the way, will they have access to the
computers outside these "formal" hours during this summer? i think this
would be desireable.

as for the schedule itself - i'll leave it up to orna and you to set it
all up. on the matter of once or twice a week that was mentioned in the
past - i guess that it'll have to be twice a week, in order for us to
complete everything before the next year starts (1st of september still?)
- at least for the pupils. for the teachers this might be less convenient
(they don't realy have a free summer-time, with families and preparations
for next year).

> The Tel Hai students, Ariela and Assaf, may be able
> to be in-charge of the practice hour.

actually, i think this would be very good. this way we'll also be able to
get to know them (the tel-hai students, that is) - which could help in the
future of this project. this can help us know what they know or don't
know, and help them master what's needed.

by the way, lets move the discussion(s) of hatzor from haifux to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - so people who are not interested won't
have to endure the "noise". anyone who's interested can subscribe by
sending an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and
follow the instructoins in the response letter.

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 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] [IBM HRL TALK] Overview of AIX Kernel

[guy keren]

On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:

> The next IBM Haifa Research Lab Linux Study Group talk will take place
> on Tuesday, 05/04/2005, at 1400 at IBM HRL
> (http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com). Anyone interested in attending should
> contact me privately for arrangements.
>
> Title: Overview of AIX kernel

is this a continuation of the meeting that took place a month or two back?

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[Haifux] regarding monday's "Unix memory management" lecture

[guy keren]

i took a look at the slides, and i realize there's a need for two lectures
to discuss everything. Thus, i expect to talk about half the material
on monday (probably up to and including slide 17). we'll schedule the
second part to one of the coming SiL lecture slots.

see there whomever comes,

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] boot errors

[guy keren]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, yakoub wrote:

> pciehp: acpi_pciehprm:\_SB_.PCI0 evaluate _BBN fail=0x5
> pciehp: acpi_pciehprm:get_device PCI ROOT HID fail=0x5

go to google, type the error message between double-quotes, and see what
it gives you. in many cases, this works. sometimes you'll need to clip the
error string and search for part of it to get results.

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy


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Re: [Haifux] Re: c with a spoon and pointer arithmetic

[guy keren]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Yoni wrote:

> Thanks for the answers :-)
> If i understand correctly, the free function might look something like this:
> void free(pointer) {
>   // gets start address, and size of memory to free to the os
>   letGoOfMemory(pointer-1,*(pointer-1));
> }
> do i understand correctly?

more or less, yes.

we'll be having a lecture that'll talk about these issues in greater depth
- look at the next SiL lecture on haifux, at
http://www.haifux.org/lectures/68/ (it's a re-run of an old lecture,
hence the low number). you can also read the tutorial that lecture is
based on - there's a link at the 'references' slide of that lecture.

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy


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Re: [Haifux] Re: "Emergency" lecture about winbind

[guy keren]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Shachar Raindel wrote:

> OK, though I will not be available for the next month or so (until I
> will get settled in the IDF). I might teach the rest of linux-sup
> group what I did, so they will be able to lecture. I will keep you
> updated.

that's ok - what's the hurry? it's not as if someone is going to die if
you don't give this lecture right now.

when you find out your future schedule and know when you can give this
lecture - give us a ring, and you'll be scheduled for a _free_ slot ;)

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy


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Re: [Haifux] What's gnucash ?

[guy keren]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Yoni wrote:

> Will the lecture tomorrow be any good to a linux newbie ?
> Thanks.

i'd assume it will be - if you're interested in managing money issues
using your computer.

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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Re: [Haifux] Orna's lecture - can someone approve ?

[guy keren]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Yoni wrote:

> Can someone approve the lecture is held at lecture room #3 ofthe
> computer department, and that it takes place at 16:30 ...
> Don't wanna go there for free :p
> Yoni.

as you probably saw, the lecture was held at lecture room #3 of the
computer science department, but it took place at 18:30, not 16:30.

in general, the lecture date written on the web site is the official and
one true date. it is very rare that we cancel lectures without a long
(>24 hours) prior notice via the mailing list (perhaps once a year ;).

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy


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