Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
2008/9/19 Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant to say to show them the stuff that they _can_ do using point-and-click.. Now that it is evident that something should be done - it is the time to call the volunteers to step forward. Please do! I can step up for a November lecture, after Moed B and Miluim. But I myself am curious, what can users do with point and click in Linux that they cannot do with point and click in Windows? Serious question. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/19 Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant to say to show them the stuff that they _can_ do using point-and-click.. Now that it is evident that something should be done - it is the time to call the volunteers to step forward. Please do! I can step up for a November lecture, after Moed B and Miluim. But I myself am curious, what can users do with point and click in Linux that they cannot do with point and click in Windows? Serious question. I think the main thing is installing software by point and click. In windows you have to download the software, run the installer, answer many questions and pray everything will work. -- Dotan Cohen -- Ori Idan ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant to say to show them the stuff that they _can_ do using point-and-click.. Now that it is evident that something should be done - it is the time to call the volunteers to step forward. Please do! On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Dave Roi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh god finally someone who understands... On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 20:35, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/17 Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Showing people the stuff that they cannot do using point-and-click (which today is quite a lot). Don't do that until they ask. People who grew up on Windows don't care how much time the cli will save them. Just showing it to them will make them think that they _have_ to use it. That is enough to drive them away. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone - Charles Darwin. GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Hi Since SSDL is moving to Linux, and since we want our students to feel comfort with Linux We are willing to help with promotion of Linux I think (but I will have to check this) that: 1.. We can have an open day in SSDL. Students will be able to come and try Linux on our computers. People from the Haifa Linux club will help them revile the beauty of Linux. The open day should take place after the semester begins (9-nov). 2.. During the open day we can do a min-InstaParty, meaning that we will have a corner with a screen keyboard. If someone will need we can help him install or configure his computer. I can put a CD\DVD burner in SSDL so we can duplicate the live-cd\any other cd for the users. 3.. We plane to prepare a presentation (which may become a lecture) about working with Linux in SSDL. This of course will include the things that we need for the academic courses that use SSDL. We can add presentation regarding general Linux application setup (but probably we won't have time to create this additional part). 4.. With a bit of luck, we will create a live-cd that includes all the application we install in SSDL. Any hints (and help) are welcome. If this sounds helpful, I will check that we can actually run it in SSDL Shahar Dag System Software Development Laboratory (SSDL) Computer Science Department Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Haifa, Israel Tel. 972-4-829-4880 Fax 972-4-829-4878 _ I am looking for old Vinyl record. If you have any that you don’t need please mail me Thanks Shahar ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
[Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Hi all, I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party, sometime in November. The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see that it is not just good in theory. My reasons for the need of Instaparty are: 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the lectures is to let them experience it. 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer, with the help of a veteran installer. 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be able to play with their distribution afterwards. I was thinking about a friendly distrbution for beginners, probably Mandriva 2009 which is supposed to be released in October (currently in RC1 and working perfectly) or Fedora 10, if it is released on time. They both work great and most of all - clear from wifi problems and works great with KDE 4.1.1. I find those distributions very easy to install, including the friendly partitioning and friendly use that both distributions have. I would like to hear your opinion about it. I understood that there was supposed to be some discussion about it on Monday, but I couldn't arrive. Regards, Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
And now answering Adir: On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party, sometime in November. The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see that it is not just good in theory. My reasons for the need of Instaparty are: 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the lectures is to let them experience it. Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs, and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines. 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer, with the help of a veteran installer. I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS partitioning is done quite automatically today. 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be able to play with their distribution afterwards. Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not think that you need Tana' demesaye for this anymore. As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the process (and they shouldn't). There is a need for a post-installation support (QA session in the W2L would probably make a lot of sense). Regards, Orr. -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone - Charles Darwin. GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Hi, I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post install configuration and usage instructions. I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed but aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to their ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc.. I'm sorry but the default install still lacks too much functionality and most newbies aren't aware of their existance. I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post install configurations using GUI alone. No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-) Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen, Elisa the media center, Nexuiz/Urban terror etc, NOT vim and programing. How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against each other? :-) I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around helping people. About the distro choice, I would go the Ubuntu way for the following reasons: 1. That's the name most people have heard (from friends etc..). 2. That's what they see in the faculty. 3. Wubi, The windows Ubuntu Installer is the easiest way to dual boot. No partitioning required. About KDE, Haven't tried the 4.1.1 release yet, but 4.1 wasn't ready for any real use. I'm a gnome guy but that's a matter of personal taste. Hopefully I'll be able to join the instaparty and help, it depends what day/time is decided. Dave. On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 14:14, Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: And now answering Adir: On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was thinking about organizing yet another Linux Installation Party, sometime in November. The idea is to combine it with the W2L series, so people will see that it is not just good in theory. My reasons for the need of Instaparty are: 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the lectures is to let them experience it. Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs, and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines. 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer, with the help of a veteran installer. I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS partitioning is done quite automatically today. 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be able to play with their distribution afterwards. Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not think that you need Tana' demesaye for this anymore. As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the process (and they shouldn't). There is a need for a post-installation support (QA session in the W2L would probably make a lot of sense). Regards, Orr. -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone - Charles Darwin. GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Hands-on experience. The best way to show what you talk in the lectures is to let them experience it. Indeed, but today you can do it without installation. We have liveCDs, and in any case, the majority of the people who arrive to this event are students, who in any way have access to *NIX machines. That's true, but if we want to make them interact with Linux more closely, we need to show them the real option that it is installable, and the best way to show them that is to show a real installation, not just a demonstration of a working distro. Showing a working distro is just a matter of showing a working KDE/Gnome for that matter... and your lovable update program. 2) People will be able to practice installation on their own computer, with the help of a veteran installer. I personally believe that you do not need this today. Even NTFS partitioning is done quite automatically today. I don't want to count on the automatic partitioning programs. The partitioning should be done half-manual - choose the size of the HD you want to part, and then let it choose to best way to split it. The simple user/installer must see which part is being splitted. If it's done in a hurry, you can erase the poor guy his whole HD, which probably contained Windows in it. 3) To show them that Linux is both easy to install and use. They will be able to play with their distribution afterwards. Live-CD for playing. Installation for those who want, and I do not think that you need Tana' demesaye for this anymore. The feeling is more personal when it's done in your computer. Needless to say that it's faster (unless you put the whole CD in the main memory, ofcourse). As the numbers from last insta parties show - people do not need this service anymore. Those who install Linux are no longer afraid of the process (and they shouldn't). There is a need for a post-installation support (QA session in the W2L would probably make a lot of sense). People would not need to service if it's not done properly. Every year there are new people who want Linux or just heard about Linux and want to give it a try. We need to catch them and show them how it is for real. Talking about Linux won't be just enough. Not even a LiveCD. Every year it's getting easier, but we need to show them that so they can tell and show their friends how easy the installation was, because the installation is mainly the first impression of Linux. Regards, Adir P.S. I don't see my emails, but only your replies for some reason. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Hi Guy, On 9/17/08, guy keren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: whatever you do - please be careful with choosing ubuntu - version 8.04 completely broke sound support for many programs i'm talking about usability - not about politics) - and people kept asking questions about this issue on the various forums, at least until august (i stopped looking, since by that time i managed to somehow work around most of the sound issues). i understood that in fedora 9 (that also integraded soundpulse to some extent) - this problem does not exist. Those are the main things that I checked. Especially for beginners, things should work out of the box, and we shall never tell them do this and that, and now it will work. It's part of the (false) impression that Linux get because of such things from newbies who just want a new system that works. As for sound - Mandriva 2009 and Fedora 9 had no problem with any of these. Wifi, on the other hand, had issues in kernel 2.6.24-2.6.25 when it comes to Intel cards (especially 3945ABG and 4965AGN which are very common in today's laptops, especially Dell and Thinkpads). The module had to be reinstalled with some hacking, and it's not something that you would let newbies to do. Anyway, those issues were fixed afterwards. Mandriva 2009 includes the newest kernel (2.6.27-rc5, will be 2.6.27 until it is released) and so does Fedora 10, so they both don't have those wifi problems. Both wifi and sound work out of the box. Regards, Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Hi Guy, On 9/17/08, guy keren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: whatever you do - please be careful with choosing ubuntu - version 8.04 completely broke sound support for many programs i'm talking about usability - not about politics) - and people kept asking questions about this issue on the various forums, at least until august (i stopped looking, since by that time i managed to somehow work around most of the sound issues). i understood that in fedora 9 (that also integraded soundpulse to some extent) - this problem does not exist. Those are the main things that I checked. Especially for beginners, things should work out of the box, and we shall never tell them do this and that, and now it will work. It's part of the (false) impression that Linux get because of such things from newbies who just want a new system that works. As for sound - Mandriva 2009 and Fedora 9 had no problem with any of these. Wifi, on the other hand, had issues in kernel 2.6.24-2.6.25 when it comes to Intel cards (especially 3945ABG and 4965AGN which are very common in today's laptops, especially Dell and Thinkpads). The module had to be reinstalled with some hacking, and it's not something that you would let newbies to do. Anyway, those issues were fixed afterwards. Mandriva 2009 includes the newest kernel (2.6.27-rc5, will be 2.6.27 until it is released) and so does Fedora 10, so they both don't have those wifi problems. Both wifi and sound work out of the box. Regards, Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Hi, On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Roi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post install configuration and usage instructions. I think a good answer to whether these are needed or not is the attendance in the last few ones. I haven't been to the last one (where Moshik Afia has arrived), but I've been to many before, and the last three I've attended were more populated with installers than installees. Yes. We are talking about less than 20 installation the whole day (or even less). In case an instaparty does happen: I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed but aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to their ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc.. most people do not use dial-up these days. moreover, if you'll get many people, you won't have time for that. If you'll get a few - what's the point in the whole event? I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post install configurations using GUI alone. an interesting approach. But it will require all the installers to be aware of the specific GUI tools (I personally do not know even my own distro's GUI tools, as I use command line). No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-) Don't enter the kitchen if you cannot stand the heat ;) Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen, After installation? This should be the deal-maker that leads people to install. But they will need to use openoffice as well... How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against each other? :-) LAN party! I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around helping people. Should we have lectures on other days? -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone - Charles Darwin. GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi, On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Roi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I believe instaparties are still needed, just with more focus on post install configuration and usage instructions. I think a good answer to whether these are needed or not is the attendance in the last few ones. I haven't been to the last one (where Moshik Afia has arrived), but I've been to many before, and the last three I've attended were more populated with installers than installees. Yes. We are talking about less than 20 installation the whole day (or even less). Agreed. In case an instaparty does happen: I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed but aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to their ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc.. most people do not use dial-up these days. moreover, if you'll get many people, you won't have time for that. If you'll get a few - what's the point in the whole event? Two more points: 1. Dial-up (and by this I mean DSL and cablemodem) configurations are in wide use today, and are a prime source of problems (cablemodem especially) for new users. However, an ordinary instaparty is useless for this, as it would have a simple routerDHCP-autoconfig based setup which works out-of-the-box. Moreover, the previous instaparty had no internet access *at all*. At the very least, a wi-fi router should be present so wireless cards can be tested. If any help is to be given in an instaparty regarding DSL and (again, especially) cablemodem connections, such a connection must be available in the instaparty, or the whole thing is pointless. Show them the fun stuff, the cool music players like amarok and Listen, After installation? This should be the deal-maker that leads people to install. But they will need to use openoffice as well... Why not just have a SiL lecture titled fun stuff in Linux to show this stuff off? It does wonders for adoptation (especially glitzy 3D desktop effects). How about a few stations on the side for people to play Nexuiz against each other? :-) LAN party! This goes well with my hands-on suggestion. I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around helping people. Should we have lectures on other days? One additional point - almost all of the linux adoptation I've seen in the Technion works like this: People see it, use it for a course, avoid it for a (geometrically distributed) while, then decide to install it (by themselves. All of the adopters I've seen are perfectly capable of performing a google search for the distribution they've seen, burning an ISO, and hitting next a couple of times). They seek a guru (or ask on the forums) for some help, are given a pointer in the general direction, and are happy. Sometimes they come seeking more help for tougher issues (laptop doesn't enter suspend-to-RAM properly, cablemodem issues, or they decided to go to a bleeding-edge version, broke a few things, and are interested in knowing how to fix them without going back to a stable version). I move that instaparties, at least in the Technion context, are obsolete. -- Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal that is struck with the difference between what things are and what they ought to be. - William Hazlitt Ohad Lutzky ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's true, but if we want to make them interact with Linux more closely, we need to show them the real option that it is installable, and the best way to show them that is to show a real installation, not just a demonstration of a working distro. Showing a working distro is just a matter of showing a working KDE/Gnome for that matter... and your lovable update program. The question is whether we should prove this by doing one installation in front of their eyes, or actually install it on their computer. We want to: 1) Show them that it's working with their computer 2) Give them a system that they can use later at home The choice of the size of the HD you want to part is the user decision. Once (s)he understands that they are asked how much space is going to be taken from Windows to Linux, they will be able to figure this out on their own (especially as you can tell people once how to choose the size). I do not think in any installation I've seen (or done) we optimized the size (it was more like We recommend at least GBs, and you have XXX+1000 spare GBs in windows. I suggest +100. You say yes? good, where each of us just picked a random number between 1000 and 0 as the extra space). What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by themselves, but we'll do it for them. The feeling is more personal when it's done in your computer. Needless to say that it's faster (unless you put the whole CD in the main memory, ofcourse). Of course, but if it is just for playing, you won't install. And once you wish to commit - you'll install. Playing in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use it because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their computers all the time... I think we can speak in numbers. Each year there are way more Linux users in Haifa area than people attending the insta-party. Every year there are less installees (according to what I've heard two years ago there were less than 10 installations, the year before there were less than 10, the year before less than 15, and the year before - less than 20). It becomes so easy or so unwanted... I think that it was not organized well last times. I even explained it a few times. The low numbers are the reason for the bad organization, and lessons were taken. It still is a matter of willing to help, and not talking in numbers. The people will arrive if it is properly arranged. The installation can be part of a Linux Day, so more people will arrive. The instaparty must be linked somehow to a series of lectures for begineers, either as part of a Welcome to Linux day or as a separate day just for installations and relevant lectures, as it used to be. Regards, Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
One additional point - almost all of the linux adoptation I've seen in the Technion works like this: People see it, use it for a course, avoid it for a (geometrically distributed) while, then decide to install it (by themselves. All of the adopters I've seen are perfectly capable of performing a google search for the distribution they've seen, burning an ISO, and hitting next a couple of times). They seek a guru (or ask on the forums) for some help, are given a pointer in the general direction, and are happy. Sometimes they come seeking more help for tougher issues (laptop doesn't enter suspend-to-RAM properly, cablemodem issues, or they decided to go to a bleeding-edge version, broke a few things, and are interested in knowing how to fix them without going back to a stable version). I move that instaparties, at least in the Technion context, are obsolete. I second that observation. Many people in my semester came to me with questions about linux (all of them ubuntu). I didn't have to install it myself for ANY of them, they all figured it out by themselves (the hardest part in installing ubuntu is managing to click Jerusalem, and not Amman or Gaza). There were some, though, that needed help with various post install issues - wireless cards mostly that don't work properly, how to do this and that, what cool stuff can I show them. I say, if anyone is eager to arrange a physical event, make it a support party. If someone wants to come and get help installing in that event, we can help them, but the focus of the event should be a wider range of things that we can help with by being physically there. ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think a good answer to whether these are needed or not is the attendance in the last few ones. I haven't been to the last one (where Moshik Afia has arrived), but I've been to many before, and the last three I've attended were more populated with installers than installees. Yes. We are talking about less than 20 installation the whole day (or even less). Every year is a new year with new people who wish to learn and get familiar with new things. I also don't believe that we actually organized it in such a great way where we can say that we can't improve it anymore. In case an instaparty does happen: I suggest focusing on installing all the cool packages that are needed but aren't installed by default like setting up the dial up connections to their ISPs, codecs, fonts, rar, ace, etc.. most people do not use dial-up these days. moreover, if you'll get many people, you won't have time for that. If you'll get a few - what's the point in the whole event? You can add a special table for configurations. It's been done in the past. Most of the requests are the same. Let's call that place Practical FAQ :-) I would highly suggest doing the entire installation including post install configurations using GUI alone. an interesting approach. But it will require all the installers to be aware of the specific GUI tools (I personally do not know even my own distro's GUI tools, as I use command line). There's no problem in doing that today. One of way to attract new users is to show them GUI installation and post-installation. No pounding giberish in the Terminal. It scares the newbies away :-) Don't enter the kitchen if you cannot stand the heat ;) Let them get into the kitchen when they got used to the smell ;) I say lectures aren't needed, just have lots of veterans going around helping people. Should we have lectures on other days? Lectures can be relevant if they are done, for example, in two tracks - newbies and techies. Some lectures can be combined for both groups in the same time. Regards, Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
First, I strongly support Tzafrir's point, which is echoed here by Adir: On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can add a special table for configurations. It's been done in the past. Most of the requests are the same. Let's call that place Practical FAQ :-) That's the only thing which would be truly useful. However, I still think that an instaparty or a supportparty would not be helpful: Consider the climate: Linux is often touted as easy-to-install and easy-to-use. Someone who heard this would not understand why he needs to carry his cumbersome computer to an event to get this done for him, or take specific time out of his day to come in with his laptop. He is told he can do this at his own leisure - and this is what he prefers. Furthermore, he wouldn't want to install a yet-unknown (especially to his neighbours' kid) operating system if he didn't know he could handle it himself. Figuring out the downloading installing part on his own is very useful to gain this confidence (i.e. if I'm going to use this, I better be able to install it myself, I don't want those guys to do it for me and when I get home I'll be lost without their assistance). This occurs no matter how much you assure the people that we'll install it in such a way that you can use it forever and ever by yourself without our help. This creates a situation in which everyone would want to install Linux in their own time, meaning they'd need any initial support at a different time. For this reason, I send new installers to this mailing list if they have any problems, hoping that they might bring their computer into the next Haifux meeting so someone could help them. An organized event might raise awareness, but installations would happen afterwards, at home. I think Orr said it best - what we need is SiL lectures, and lots of them. We can use the W2L advertisements to promote some SiL lectures, perhaps in higher density (and perhaps about topic which are more attractive to new users) around the W2L date. -- Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal that is struck with the difference between what things are and what they ought to be. - William Hazlitt Ohad Lutzky ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
[Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Adir wrote: We want to: 1) Show them that it's working with their computer live CD. 2) Give them a system that they can use later at home If they cannot install today's distro at their own, they won't be able to handle it later at home. We are past the times of delicate partitioning, OSS failures, and ppp configurations (and let's not forget the crappy driver support the 2.0.36 kernel had with comparison to (that era's) windows). What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by themselves, but we'll do it for them. This is the only thing that they actually need to do on their own today. The install software is even nice enough to ask you what you want to boot... Playing in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use it because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their computers all the time... I know of dead installations that nobody touched since it was installed. And people brought their computer because they could not do it themselves. They can do it themselves today. I think that it was not organized well last times. I even explained it a few times. The low numbers are the reason for the bad organization, and lessons were taken. It still is a matter of willing to help, and not talking in numbers. The people will arrive if it is properly arranged. The installation can be part of a Linux Day, so more people will arrive. The instaparty must be linked somehow to a series of lectures for begineers, either as part of a Welcome to Linux day or as a separate day just for installations and relevant lectures, as it used to be. I agree that there were problems in organization. However, if we failed to prepare it in a good manner for four times, I find it very hard to believe it will succeed in the fifth. Especially as the number of volunteers has dropped (even finding lecturers for haifux is not as easy in the past), as Actcom (RIP in the heaven of the Ltd. companies) will not fund the event, and as the dorm farms can no longer be the source of supplies for installation stuff (and I suspect that Aryeh cannot help much as well). Oh. And the farms cannot offer accomodating the event, and Beit hastudent is under construction-work. So all in all, we are talking about more problems, and less resources. -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone - Charles Darwin. GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone - Charles Darwin. GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On 9/17/08, Ohad Lutzky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Consider the climate: Linux is often touted as easy-to-install and easy-to-use. By whom? By someone who says so in the forums? And what is Linux for that matter? Someone who heard this would not understand why he needs to carry his cumbersome computer to an event to get this done for him, or take specific time out of his day to come in with his laptop. Yes, that's the spirit of the day. You have to arrive, and you either do that for the lectures, or the installation which should take no more than 30 minutes. Those who will arrive with a computer actually need us. Later, at home, they might waste much more time, or they will give up on trying. He is told he can do this at his own leisure - and this is what he prefers. He is told so by whom? Furthermore, he wouldn't want to install a yet-unknown (especially to his neighbours' kid) operating system if he didn't know he could handle it himself. That's one of the reasons why an installation party is needed, and the support, afterwards, although the best distribution for the beginners is not only the one that makes you feel comfortable, but also gives you less headache afterwards. It sounds absurd, but we want to be able to give him as little help as possible. When he starts checking his distribution, he will ask the right questions and not because part of his hardware was not operative. The best way to show that something works is to let them see that it's working on their own machine. The installation itself is part of the support, but ofcourse not the only one. Figuring out the downloading installing part on his own is very useful to gain this confidence (i.e. if I'm going to use this, I better be able to install it myself, I don't want those guys to do it for me and when I get home I'll be lost without their assistance). This occurs no matter how much you assure the people that we'll install it in such a way that you can use it forever and ever by yourself without our help. You assume that they will do it by themselves. In this case they can also search for any information in the Internet and not to arrive to lectures (they can listen to good lectures that are relevant for them). You actually say why SiL is not needed, because it's so easy... at worst we will upload the papers and let them read it and deal with it. If you understand the difference between a lecture and lecture notes, you should also understand the difference between giving instructions and helping someone doing it on his own computer. You don't understand the audience. It's something new for them (usually), and the things that look easy and trivial to you, might not look so for them. In addition to that, I am talking about a general audience, not only about the Technion (although it's true for Technion students as well). This creates a situation in which everyone would want to install Linux in their own time, meaning they'd need any initial support at a different time. For this reason, I send new installers to this mailing list if they have any problems, hoping that they might bring their computer into the next Haifux meeting so someone could help them. An organized event might raise awareness, but installations would happen afterwards, at home. You are talking about some ideal that doesn't exist. I think Orr said it best - what we need is SiL lectures, and lots of them. We can use the W2L advertisements to promote some SiL lectures, perhaps in higher density (and perhaps about topic which are more attractive to new users) around the W2L date. If that was true (for beginners) - we shouldn't have needed a Linux club. All we would need was an FTP server to upload lecture notes. If Linux is so easy for everyone, we don't need to do anything physical for beginners, and if it was so familiar, nobody would need us. But this is not the truth. The truth is that we need to help them to get into it in a better way. I believe that we miss a lot of people who want to know but they are just afraid, or not familiar, and the _result_ is googling everything, without necessarily getting the right kickoff they need. Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every year is a new year with new people who wish to learn and get familiar with new things. I also don't believe that we actually organized it in such a great way where we can say that we can't improve it anymore. This was the case also last time, and the time before, and even the time before it. As I said before, it is unlikely that the fifth time will work better with more problems and less resources. You can add a special table for configurations. It's been done in the past. Most of the requests are the same. Let's call that place Practical FAQ :-) We tried this at least once before. When I counted 15 it was including the two people who brought the computer. There's no problem in doing that today. One of way to attract new users is to show them GUI installation and post-installation. But not on their machine. That's the key idea of an insta party - to put it on their machine. If they want Linux, they'll install on their own. If not, they won't come at all. Lectures can be relevant if they are done, for example, in two tracks - newbies and techies. Some lectures can be combined for both groups in the same time. Adir, I think that we will have problems manning even one track, two tracks is above our heads. And btw, the last time we had two tracks, 5 people arrived to the newbie track. All of which could have entered the more advanced one, if they had any self confidence. -- Orr Dunkelman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone - Charles Darwin. GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adir wrote: We want to: 1) Show them that it's working with their computer live CD. That will be a great way to help them installing that Live CD... 2) Give them a system that they can use later at home If they cannot install today's distro at their own, they won't be able to handle it later at home. We are past the times of delicate partitioning, OSS failures, and ppp configurations (and let's not forget the crappy driver support the 2.0.36 kernel had with comparison to (that era's) windows). You can't even fix a Windows problem (you have to reboot, usually). That doesn't mean that they are capable of installing it. Most of the hard work is the installation process. With the experience they will gain, they will be able to install it later once again and do other advanced things. What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by themselves, but we'll do it for them. This is the only thing that they actually need to do on their own today. The install software is even nice enough to ask you what you want to boot... Yes, but we want to show them how easy it is on their own computer. I have no doubt that it's an easy process. Most likely they won't do it by themselves after the lectures. This is a good chance that somebody will show them how easy it is both to install and to work with. Playing in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use it because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their computers all the time... I know of dead installations that nobody touched since it was installed. And people brought their computer because they could not do it themselves. They can do it themselves today. That's a different audience. Experiencing your disto installation once is more than enough. Later he can try doing whatever he likes. Most of the people who will arrive to install, don't have such an experience for sure. I agree that there were problems in organization. However, if we failed to prepare it in a good manner for four times, I find it very hard to believe it will succeed in the fifth. Especially as the number of volunteers has dropped (even finding lecturers for haifux is not as easy in the past), as Actcom (RIP in the heaven of the Ltd. companies) will not fund the event, and as the dorm farms can no longer be the source of supplies for installation stuff (and I suspect that Aryeh cannot help much as well). Oh. And the farms cannot offer accomodating the event, and Beit hastudent is under construction-work. So all in all, we are talking about more problems, and less resources. I agree with you here. It will be even more difficult this time. No doubt. The main problem is number of volunteers, but that's a totally different discussion. That's why I'm not 100% sure that I want to get into that, although I believe that it is highly important. Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
On 9/17/08, Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adir wrote: We want to: 1) Show them that it's working with their computer live CD. That will be a great way to help them installing that Live CD... 2) Give them a system that they can use later at home If they cannot install today's distro at their own, they won't be able to handle it later at home. We are past the times of delicate partitioning, OSS failures, and ppp configurations (and let's not forget the crappy driver support the 2.0.36 kernel had with comparison to (that era's) windows). You can't even fix a Windows problem (you have to reboot, usually). That doesn't mean that they are capable of installing it. Most of the hard work is the installation process. With the experience they will gain, they will be able to install it later once again and do other advanced things. What I meant is that we won't let them work on the partitions by themselves, but we'll do it for them. This is the only thing that they actually need to do on their own today. The install software is even nice enough to ask you what you want to boot... Yes, but we want to show them how easy it is on their own computer. I have no doubt that it's an easy process. Most likely they won't do it by themselves after the lectures. This is a good chance that somebody will show them how easy it is both to install and to work with. Playing in the general term... Once you commit to install, you will use it because it's in your computer. That's why actually people brought their computers all the time... I know of dead installations that nobody touched since it was installed. And people brought their computer because they could not do it themselves. They can do it themselves today. That's a different audience. Experiencing your disto installation once is more than enough. Later he can try doing whatever he likes. Most of the people who will arrive to install, don't have such an experience for sure. I agree that there were problems in organization. However, if we failed to prepare it in a good manner for four times, I find it very hard to believe it will succeed in the fifth. Especially as the number of volunteers has dropped (even finding lecturers for haifux is not as easy in the past), as Actcom (RIP in the heaven of the Ltd. companies) will not fund the event, and as the dorm farms can no longer be the source of supplies for installation stuff (and I suspect that Aryeh cannot help much as well). Oh. And the farms cannot offer accomodating the event, and Beit hastudent is under construction-work. So all in all, we are talking about more problems, and less resources. I agree with you here. It will be even more difficult this time. No doubt. The main problem is number of volunteers, but that's a totally different discussion. That's why I'm not 100% sure that I want to get into that, although I believe that it is highly important. Adir ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
2008/9/17 Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Showing people the stuff that they cannot do using point-and-click (which today is quite a lot). Don't do that until they ask. People who grew up on Windows don't care how much time the cli will save them. Just showing it to them will make them think that they _have_ to use it. That is enough to drive them away. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
Re: [Haifux] W2L + Installation party?
Oh god finally someone who understands... On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 20:35, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/17 Orr Dunkelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Showing people the stuff that they cannot do using point-and-click (which today is quite a lot). Don't do that until they ask. People who grew up on Windows don't care how much time the cli will save them. Just showing it to them will make them think that they _have_ to use it. That is enough to drive them away. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux ___ Haifux mailing list Haifux@haifux.org http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux
