Re: [Hampshire] Converting a .TS Video Stream file

[Paul Stimpson]

Hi,

If you have no audio then this is quite possibly to do with the ID of the audio 
stream (PID) not being what the transcoding program expects and therefore being 
ignored. TSes consist of a number of Packetized Elemental Streams (PES) each of 
which has a PID that the player uses to look up in a data table or to make an 
assumption as to what the stream is (audio, video, teletext, RS422 data, etc.) 
Big problems happen if different values are used, the data table doesn't get 
read and the player assumes what the stream types are based on assumed default 
numbers for the PIDs . Can you find a utility to find out the stream IDs in the 
file and demux the streams from the file or alter the PIDs in place? You may 
need to alter (remap) the PIDs to the values your converter program expects or 
to tell the converter what the audio, video and PCR PIDs in the file are.

How much audio error are we talking about and is it audio leading or lagging 
the video? (I'm guessing leading; the brain is much more sensitive to leading 
audio than lagging. Is the audio in sync when you play it on the Hummy? If so 
you may have an issue with the program not correctly using the Program Clock 
Reference (PCR) and Presentation Time (PT) to display them at the correct 
times. This could be another PID number problem with the PCR not being 
identified or just duff playback/conversion software. When the audio is out 
does it drift or is it always out by the same amount for the duration of the 
recording?

Cheers,
Paul.


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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Stephen Rowles]

> Things like the Hot Spot compiler in Java, which can re-optimise
> byte code as the program is running depending on how its actually
> being used can complicate things (ending up with Java performing
> better than C in *some* circumstances).

This is something that is particularly relevant for large applications,
such as ERP systems, financial apps etc. Having a hot spot complier that
can re-optimise the part of the system that is actually being used can
lead to some nice performance gains.

That kind of technology can also be useful when an application ends up
being used in a completely different way to the way the developers
originally expected.

That's one of the problems with performance optimisation. You cannot
optimise everything (for a large software project you never have time) so
you have to work on the areas you think are important / used the most. Of
course if you get the wrong areas, then it doesn't help ;).


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Re: [Hampshire] Converting a .TS Video Stream file

[Vic]

> If you have no audio then this is quite possibly to do with the ID of the
> audio stream (PID) not being what the transcoding program expects and
> therefore being ignored. TSes consist of a number of Packetized Elemental
> Streams (PES) each of which has a PID that the player uses to look up in a
> data table or to make an assumption as to what the stream is (audio,
> video, teletext, RS422 data, etc.) Big problems happen if different values
> are used, the data table doesn't get read and the player assumes what the
> stream types are based on assumed default numbers for the PIDs .

Oooh - that would be a very buggy implementation.

The PIDs to use for PES streams and PCR are found in the PMT for that
channel. The PMT is found in a PID as described by the PAT. MPEG PSI is a
really simple heirarchy...

> Can you
> find a utility to find out the stream IDs in the file and demux the
> streams from the file or alter the PIDs in place? You may need to alter
> (remap) the PIDs to the values your converter program expects or to tell
> the converter what the audio, video and PCR PIDs in the file are.

I would file a bug report against the converter; PES streams should be
handled on any non-reserved PID. This gets conmplicated slightly when you
go to ATSC (they have defined PIDs for each channel), but that's a subset
of the MPEG requirements.

> If so you may have an issue with the program not correctly
> using the Program Clock Reference (PCR) and Presentation Time (PT) to
> display them at the correct times.

I was thinking just the same - sounds like another bug in the decoder.

If the decoder in question has been anywhere near ST's dvbref refence
software, it'll be the same A/V sync bug that was in there when all the
Sky boxes first shipped - the clock was recovered, but due to a hardware
"feature", the STC could only be rate-locked, not value-locked to the PCR
(the register wasn't writeable). The decoder software then logs the
difference between STC and PC, and uses that as an offset when calculating
presentation tmiings.

Unfortunately, this offset was measured independently for audio and video
- so each stream played back at the right rate, but the synchronisation
between them was essentially random. I fixed this before I left ST, then I
fixed it again for a number of manufacturers, then I kept on seeing it in
the field (the "wall of TVs" they do in shops is a dead giveaway - the
pictures weren't synchronised between different displays).

Vic.

[Who is glad to be out of the TV industry...]


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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Vic]

> That's one of the problems with performance optimisation. You cannot
> optimise everything (for a large software project you never have time) so
> you have to work on the areas you think are important / used the most. Of
> course if you get the wrong areas, then it doesn't help ;).

It's amazing how many people jump into "optimisation" without having
collected any metrics on their code first...

Years ago, I worked for a company that sold in-circuit test and
optimisation tools[1]. It was quite incredible to see imtelligent people
using up all their development time recoding loops which turned out to be
run for a few seconds a month...

Vic.

[1] See
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=CODETEST -
although it wasn't owned by FreeScale when I worked on it. I ran the UK
beta test programme - and the customer that managment selected for me ran
HP-UX. Which is buggy. Uggh.


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[Hampshire] [OT] Mouse not selecting text in Word under Vista

[Stephen Nelson-Smith]

I have a user who has suddenly found he cannot select any text, or do
anything with the mouse in a word document.  He can click on menus,
buttons etc, but not on the text.  Every other application is fine,
including other office applications.

Some forum searching has suggested a workaround of running it as
administrator, but he seems not to have this option for office
programs.

Anti-virus etc is all up-to-date, and no problems reported.

Any ideas?

S.

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Mouse not selecting text in Word under Vista

[Philip Stubbs]

2008/10/30 Stephen Nelson-Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I have a user who has suddenly found he cannot select any text, or do
> anything with the mouse in a word document.  He can click on menus,
> buttons etc, but not on the text.  Every other application is fine,
> including other office applications.
>
> Some forum searching has suggested a workaround of running it as
> administrator, but he seems not to have this option for office
> programs.
>
> Anti-virus etc is all up-to-date, and no problems reported.
>
> Any ideas?

http://www.openoffice.org/

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Mouse not selecting text in Word under Vista

[Paul Stimpson]

Does the problem affect all documents or just some? If it's just some do they 
have anything in common, like the font? If you create a new user, put the 
document on a USB key, reload it in the new account and try editing it do you 
still get the problem? 

Cheers,
Paul.


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Re: [Hampshire] Converting a .TS Video Stream file

[alan c]

Stephen Davies wrote:
> Alan,
>  My Hummy is less han a year old but I had issues with the USB connection.
> So, I remove the HDD and use humaxrw to get the .TS files.

Same for me, I have two units. the first will usually connect using 
the son_t cables modification (ide cable to usb), if a powered usb hub 
is used with the laptop. Or I connect direct to the HD using the 
modified cable and  the ide to usb widget.

The second unit does not get its usb recognised at all, even if the 
usb powered hub is used anyway.

The problem is thought to be that the HD cable in units with a later 
control software has signal states which are not released to high 
impedance when the unit is in standby, so the custom usb connection 
for the standby unit is at best marginal signal levels.
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Linux user #360648

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Mouse not selecting text in Word under Vista

[Tim]

On Thursday 30 October 2008 10:01:26 Stephen Nelson-Smith wrote:
> I have a user who has suddenly found he cannot select any text, or do
> anything with the mouse in a word document.  He can click on menus,
> buttons etc, but not on the text.  Every other application is fine,
> including other office applications.
>
> Some forum searching has suggested a workaround of running it as
> administrator, but he seems not to have this option for office
> programs.
>
> Anti-virus etc is all up-to-date, and no problems reported.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> S.

Is a secondary word window opening when you start word which is hidden, that 
would cause the problem.

You don't say which version but maybe this might help

http://www.itwriting.com/blog/140-annoying-word-2007-problem-cant-select-text.html

Tim


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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Bond, Peter]

> GC in real time applications can be a bad idea, though I believe
> there are real-time versions of garbage collectors out there.

It's not uncommon to find the GC running as a lower priority task to
claim real-time improvements.  Still isn't all that predictable though.

Peter
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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Bond, Peter]

> It's amazing how many people jump into "optimisation" without having
> collected any metrics on their code first...

Similarly, it is astonishing to see how some people don't *look* at the
metrics.  A long while back, I instrumented a chunk of UI code (using
Quantify, IIRC) which gave a "clear" indicator which function was
causing all the delays...

write()

Yes, there were a lot of writes to the display, but rewriting write on
an HPUX system wasn't really on.  I probably spent more time explaining
to my manager why that wasn't a suitable target for optimising than I
did actually getting to the bottom of the problem.

My favourite optimisation was to take a min/max buffer function from a
run time of 5.5s to about 1.4ms (68030)...  By rewriting the function so
that it wasn't splitting & copying buffers all over the place and made
use of pointers instead.

Peter
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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Vic]

> It's not uncommon to find the GC running as a lower priority task to
> claim real-time improvements.  Still isn't all that predictable though.

If the app requires that the garbage be collected from time to time (i.e.
it uses that heap), then you have an effective priority inversion: the
high-priority app will be prevented from operating until the low-priority
GC has completed.

So all this does is to shift the problem, not fix it. :-(

Vic.


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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Bond, Peter]

> If the app requires that the garbage be collected from time to time
(i.e.
> it uses that heap), then you have an effective priority inversion: the
> high-priority app will be prevented from operating until the
low-priority
> GC has completed.
> 
> So all this does is to shift the problem, not fix it. :-(
> 
> Vic.

Sorry, should have elaborated on it being a pile of kak.   The mantra
of "write it properly" - hell, maybe even try *designing* it - ought to
be applied.  (Still not a fan of C++ in embedded, bluntly)

Busily reading the TS analysis stuff...

Peter
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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Mouse not selecting text in Word under Vista

[Stephen Nelson-Smith]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:17 AM, Paul Stimpson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does the problem affect all documents or just some?

All documents, inlcuding new ones.

> If you create a new user, put the document on a USB key, reload it in the new 
> account and try editing it do you still get the problem?

Will try that and report back.

S.

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[Hampshire] NTP connection problem

[Lisi]

When I try to run NTPdate, I get:

Tux:/etc# ntpdate
30 Oct 11:23:53 ntpdate[4385]: no servers can be used, exiting
---
My /etc/ntp.conf is as follows:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/etc$ cat ntp.conf
# /etc/ntp.conf, configuration for ntpd; see ntp.conf(5) for help

driftfile /var/lib/ntp/ntp.drift


# Enable this if you want statistics to be logged.
#statsdir /var/log/ntpstats/

statistics loopstats peerstats clockstats
filegen loopstats file loopstats type day enable
filegen peerstats file peerstats type day enable
filegen clockstats file clockstats type day enable


# You do need to talk to an NTP server or two (or three).
#server ntp.your-provider.example

# pool.ntp.org maps to about 1000 low-stratum NTP servers.  Your server will
# pick a different set every time it starts up.  Please consider joining the
# pool: 
server 0.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic
server 1.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic
server 2.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic
server 3.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic


# Access control configuration; see /usr/share/doc/ntp-doc/html/accopt.html 
for
# details.  The web page 

# might also be helpful.
#
# Note that "restrict" applies to both servers and clients, so a configuration
# that might be intended to block requests from certain clients could also end
# up blocking replies from your own upstream servers.

# By default, exchange time with everybody, but don't allow configuration.
restrict -4 default kod notrap nomodify nopeer noquery
restrict -6 default kod notrap nomodify nopeer noquery

# Local users may interrogate the ntp server more closely.
restrict 127.0.0.1
restrict ::1

# Clients from this (example!) subnet have unlimited access, but only if
# cryptographically authenticated.
#restrict 192.168.123.0 mask 255.255.255.0 notrust


# If you want to provide time to your local subnet, change the next line.
# (Again, the address is an example only.)
#broadcast 192.168.123.255

# If you want to listen to time broadcasts on your local subnet, de-comment 
the
# next lines.  Please do this only if you trust everybody on the network!
#disable auth
#broadcastclient
-

I have tried adding the following line:

server 4.time-g.netgear.com

But it makes no difference.  I get the same error message.  What am I doing 
wrong and what ought I to be doing?

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] NTP connection problem

[John Wesley]

According to the man page ntpdate doesn't use a config file, it expects the
server to be given to it on the command line.

The config file is for ntpd

jonh

2008/10/30 Lisi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> When I try to run NTPdate, I get:
>
> Tux:/etc# ntpdate
> 30 Oct 11:23:53 ntpdate[4385]: no servers can be used, exiting
> ---
> My /etc/ntp.conf is as follows:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/etc$ cat ntp.conf
> # /etc/ntp.conf, configuration for ntpd; see ntp.conf(5) for help
>
> driftfile /var/lib/ntp/ntp.drift
>
>
> # Enable this if you want statistics to be logged.
> #statsdir /var/log/ntpstats/
>
> statistics loopstats peerstats clockstats
> filegen loopstats file loopstats type day enable
> filegen peerstats file peerstats type day enable
> filegen clockstats file clockstats type day enable
>
>
> # You do need to talk to an NTP server or two (or three).
> #server ntp.your-provider.example
>
> # pool.ntp.org maps to about 1000 low-stratum NTP servers.  Your server
> will
> # pick a different set every time it starts up.  Please consider joining
> the
> # pool: 
> server 0.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic
> server 1.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic
> server 2.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic
> server 3.debian.pool.ntp.org iburst dynamic
>
>
> # Access control configuration; see /usr/share/doc/ntp-doc/html/accopt.html
> for
> # details.  The web page
> 
> # might also be helpful.
> #
> # Note that "restrict" applies to both servers and clients, so a
> configuration
> # that might be intended to block requests from certain clients could also
> end
> # up blocking replies from your own upstream servers.
>
> # By default, exchange time with everybody, but don't allow configuration.
> restrict -4 default kod notrap nomodify nopeer noquery
> restrict -6 default kod notrap nomodify nopeer noquery
>
> # Local users may interrogate the ntp server more closely.
> restrict 127.0.0.1
> restrict ::1
>
> # Clients from this (example!) subnet have unlimited access, but only if
> # cryptographically authenticated.
> #restrict 192.168.123.0 mask 255.255.255.0 notrust
>
>
> # If you want to provide time to your local subnet, change the next line.
> # (Again, the address is an example only.)
> #broadcast 192.168.123.255
>
> # If you want to listen to time broadcasts on your local subnet, de-comment
> the
> # next lines.  Please do this only if you trust everybody on the network!
> #disable auth
> #broadcastclient
> -
>
> I have tried adding the following line:
>
> server 4.time-g.netgear.com
>
> But it makes no difference.  I get the same error message.  What am I doing
> wrong and what ought I to be doing?
>
> Lisi
>
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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Mouse not selecting text in Word under Vista

[Stephen Nelson-Smith]

Hi,

> You don't say which version but maybe this might help
>
> http://www.itwriting.com/blog/140-annoying-word-2007-problem-cant-select-text.html

Good find - yes that was very helpful.  Deleting the Word data
registry key fixed it.

Thanks, chums.

S.

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Re: [Hampshire] NTP connection problem

[Hugo Mills]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:35:53AM +, Lisi wrote:
> When I try to run NTPdate, I get:

   Don't. Really, don't. ntpdate is pretty fundamentally broken, and
its use has been deprecated by the authors. Run an NTP daemon instead
(and that will use you config file).

   Hugo.

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[Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Paul Stimpson]

Hi,

My distro journey isn't going too well. I was happy with Kubuntu but ever since 
Feisty I'd been seeing more and more things that just "weren't right". The 
final straw was when I couldn't get Pulseaudio to work with KDE.

I decided to give FC9 a try and that is great apart from NetworkManager/the 
kernel being broken (wireless can't connect to most WPA networks and now has a 
nasty resource leak since the latest update that keeps taking the machine 
down.) Mouseovers on MP3 files also cause xmms to run so short of resources 
that the machine drops audio.

I'm not good enough to fix these problems so I'm thinking about another distro 
change. Things I'd like:

* KDE (preferably 4)
* Pulseaudio
* NM and my Intel 4965 wifi working.
* Easy support for LUKS encrypted drives.

I'm going to be doing some Internet radio broadcasting (probably with IDJC) so 
I need it not to run out of puff on my machine (2.4 dual core 3MB cache 800 
FSB, 4GB, nVidia Quadro FX 1600m graphics. Hardly a slouch) 

What should I try next please. I want something with good repos, that's well 
supported and that doesn't need hours of surgery just to get it working.

My initial ideas are to try Kubuntu Intrepid, Debian (Etch or Lenny?), FC10 
Beta (can't work much worse than FC9 on my machine), try Gentoo, Mandriva or 
maybe Mint. What do you think I should do?

Thanks,
Paul.


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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Daniel Pope]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 08:30:02AM -, Stephen Rowles wrote:
> > Things like the Hot Spot compiler in Java, which can re-optimise
> > byte code as the program is running depending on how its actually
> > being used can complicate things (ending up with Java performing
> > better than C in *some* circumstances).

That will never happen. Java can approach C's performance in some
circumstances, but Java /always/ carries an overhead. The JVM is simply
not designed to match C's speed. For example, Java arrays are always bounds-
checked.

The hot-spot compiler is not a tool for doing extra super-duper
optimisation of frequently used code but for saving time by avoiding
optimisations on infrequently used code. You can assume that a C compiler
always fully optimises everything.

> That's one of the problems with performance optimisation. You cannot
> optimise everything (for a large software project you never have time) so
> you have to work on the areas you think are important / used the most. Of
> course if you get the wrong areas, then it doesn't help ;).

This is true but it's a completely different type of optimisation, one
that cannot be done automatically. Compilers can fully perform
instruction-level optimisation, but they won't rewrite an O(n²) algorithm
to an O(n log n) algorithm, which is usually the kind of optimisation
programmers usually look for when they are coding.

The circumstances where Java will run faster than C are the latter type
of operation: JFC gives programmers a far better library than the STL,
meaning it's easier to write code with better asymptotic complexity in
Java.

Dan

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Phillip Chandler]

Hi Paul.

Have you consider PCLinuxOS ? The 2007 version is rock solid with KDE,
but there is now a 2009 version out, still in Beta but starting to look
good.

Texstar (who is the main person on the distro) came from Mandriva, so
has that way of thinking, and also sways towards the Debian way of
thinking, IE "It will be released when we're happy with it, if thats a
month or 4 months then tough, thats the way its going to be."

Phillip



On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 12:55 +, Paul Stimpson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> My distro journey isn't going too well. I was happy with Kubuntu but ever 
> since Feisty I'd been seeing more and more things that just "weren't right". 
> The final straw was when I couldn't get Pulseaudio to work with KDE.
> 
> I decided to give FC9 a try and that is great apart from NetworkManager/the 
> kernel being broken (wireless can't connect to most WPA networks and now has 
> a nasty resource leak since the latest update that keeps taking the machine 
> down.) Mouseovers on MP3 files also cause xmms to run so short of resources 
> that the machine drops audio.
> 
> I'm not good enough to fix these problems so I'm thinking about another 
> distro change. Things I'd like:
> 
> * KDE (preferably 4)
> * Pulseaudio
> * NM and my Intel 4965 wifi working.
> * Easy support for LUKS encrypted drives.
> 
> I'm going to be doing some Internet radio broadcasting (probably with IDJC) 
> so I need it not to run out of puff on my machine (2.4 dual core 3MB cache 
> 800 FSB, 4GB, nVidia Quadro FX 1600m graphics. Hardly a slouch) 
> 
> What should I try next please. I want something with good repos, that's well 
> supported and that doesn't need hours of surgery just to get it working.
> 
> My initial ideas are to try Kubuntu Intrepid, Debian (Etch or Lenny?), FC10 
> Beta (can't work much worse than FC9 on my machine), try Gentoo, Mandriva or 
> maybe Mint. What do you think I should do?
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul.
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[James Ashburner]

Phillip Chandler wrote:
> Hi Paul.
> 
> Have you consider PCLinuxOS ? The 2007 version is rock solid with KDE,
> but there is now a 2009 version out, still in Beta but starting to look
> good.
> 
> Texstar (who is the main person on the distro) came from Mandriva, so
> has that way of thinking, and also sways towards the Debian way of
> thinking, IE "It will be released when we're happy with it, if thats a
> month or 4 months then tough, thats the way its going to be."
> 
> Phillip
> 

+1 for PCLOS, though I use the 2008 mini-me build. Very easy to use, 
great hardware support, easy wizard for installing ATI/nVidia video 
drivers, no problems with Wireless on my Thinkpad T60p.

James

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Phillip @ NTL]

With the 2009 version, there is a very smart GUI for installing/uninstalling
both ATI & Nvidea drivers. Takes the pain out of doing it any tother way


- Original Message -
From: "James Ashburner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Hampshire LUG Discussion List" 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?


> Phillip Chandler wrote:
> > Hi Paul.
> >
> > Have you consider PCLinuxOS ? The 2007 version is rock solid with KDE,
> > but there is now a 2009 version out, still in Beta but starting to look
> > good.
> >
> > Texstar (who is the main person on the distro) came from Mandriva, so
> > has that way of thinking, and also sways towards the Debian way of
> > thinking, IE "It will be released when we're happy with it, if thats a
> > month or 4 months then tough, thats the way its going to be."
> >
> > Phillip
> >
>
> +1 for PCLOS, though I use the 2008 mini-me build. Very easy to use,
> great hardware support, easy wizard for installing ATI/nVidia video
> drivers, no problems with Wireless on my Thinkpad T60p.
>
> James
>
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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Paul Stimpson]

Hi,

Thanks for the recommendation. I've kept away from PCLinuxOS as I always 
perceived it as trying to be Windows. Is this still the case?

I like Linux. I don't want Windows. I just don't know enough to localise the 
FC9 wifi failure to the kernel, nm or the Intel driver or to fix it.  Do you 
think PCLinuxOS is right for me?

Thanks,
Paul.


Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Tim]

On Thursday 30 October 2008 14:11:30 Paul Stimpson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the recommendation. I've kept away from PCLinuxOS as I always
> perceived it as trying to be Windows. Is this still the case?
>
> I like Linux. I don't want Windows. I just don't know enough to localise
> the FC9 wifi failure to the kernel, nm or the Intel driver or to fix it. 
> Do you think PCLinuxOS is right for me?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul.
>
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

Could try Mepis, currently version 7 with version 8 in betas likely to main 
stream soon. Version 7 is based on Debian etch (stable) and is rocked solid, 
Version 8 is be based on Debian Lenny (testing). Mepis has one of the best 
users forum (imo) and have there own community repository as well.

Tim

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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The "speed of a language"

[Stephen Pelc]

Rob Malpass said:

> Fred said that one reason he liked Forth was that it was
> fast - which got me thinking 

> Nowadays would we refer to one language being any faster than another?   I
> guess we can exclude from this debate the speed of compilation.   I'd
> guess for most (non-climate-modelling) applications - compilation speed on
> modern hardware isn't much of an overhead.

If you are compiling a program of one million LOC, you'll find 
that compilation speed affects the way you work. We spent a lot 
of time improving compilation speed of our Forth compilers for a 
client to get a full build down to below 20 seconds.

> So once a program is compiled - is any language faster than any other
> nowadays?   Two programs: one in C, one in Java doing the identical job -
> is there anything anywhere that says one will always be faster for
> non-trivial applications?

There's nothing that makes a program in one language execute any 
faster than one in another language other than the quality of 
the implementation of the compiler. That in turn assumes that 
performance is the primary objective. Outside the fat desktop 
world, code density may be more important.

Stephen
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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The 'speed of a language'

[Stephen Rowles]

>> That's one of the problems with performance optimisation. You cannot
>> optimise everything (for a large software project you never have time)
>> so
>> you have to work on the areas you think are important / used the most.
>> Of
>> course if you get the wrong areas, then it doesn't help ;).
>
> This is true but it's a completely different type of optimisation, one
> that cannot be done automatically. Compilers can fully perform
> instruction-level optimisation, but they won't rewrite an O(n²) algorithm
> to an O(n log n) algorithm, which is usually the kind of optimisation
> programmers usually look for when they are coding.

Indeed, I probably didn't make it clear in my original post that I was
going off on a tangent about needing to understand what you are optimising
;)

Of course there are arguments in both directions about this is faster than
that, and I've seen various people comparing speed both ways with tests
that show things are faster in C vs Java, and other test showing code in
Java is faster than C.

But I would agree with original post that the "speed of a language" is
largely irrelevant for all but a very small sub-set of the software
written today.

The biggest cost of a software project is service and maintenance of the
software that has been written, and mitigating the impact mistakes. The
language and environment that you choose to write in can massively impact
this and is probably the largest factor is choosing a language.

Personally if I was running a software house, I probably wouldn't start
any new C or C++ software projects because those skills are far to scarce
and far too expensive. (unless of course you had very very good reasons
why it had to be in one of those languages).

For most general use software the speed of using something like Java or
.Net or similar, which is now taught as the main language to graduates
makes little or no difference, but will greatly impact your staff costs,
and of course make your maintenance costs cheaper too.


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Phillip Chandler]

Windows lookalike !!! Well KDE 3.x would fit the bill as being windows
little brother in basic look menu wise(ish)

(K)Ubuntu 8.10 and Fedora do seem to have a problem with wpa2 wireless.
Debian Lenny needs 5 mins work to get wpa.

As regards to whether pclos is right for you. Best bet is to download
the live CD ISO and give it a spin. Installing my Belkin wireless driver
was 4 clicks.


On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 14:11 +, Paul Stimpson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation. I've kept away from PCLinuxOS as I always 
> perceived it as trying to be Windows. Is this still the case?
> 
> I like Linux. I don't want Windows. I just don't know enough to localise the 
> FC9 wifi failure to the kernel, nm or the Intel driver or to fix it.  Do you 
> think PCLinuxOS is right for me?
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul.
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
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Re: [Hampshire] [Tech] The "speed of a language"

[Hugo Mills]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 02:49:16PM -, Stephen Pelc wrote:
> There's nothing that makes a program in one language execute any 
> faster than one in another language other than the quality of 
> the implementation of the compiler. That in turn assumes that 
> performance is the primary objective. Outside the fat desktop 
> world, code density may be more important.

   Actually, these days, that also applies on the fat desktop. The
default build options on the Linux kernel went from -O2 to -Os over a
year ago, as it produced both smaller *and* faster code. Cache misses
are now so expensive that (e.g.) unrolling loops is no longer worth it
on modern processors, as you push too much code out of the CPU cache.

   Hugo.

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Lisi]

On Thursday 30 October 2008 14:11:30 Paul Stimpson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the recommendation. I've kept away from PCLinuxOS as I always
> perceived it as trying to be Windows. Is this still the case?
>
> I like Linux. I don't want Windows. I just don't know enough to localise
> the FC9 wifi failure to the kernel, nm or the Intel driver or to fix it. 
> Do you think PCLinuxOS is right for me?

It is great, and got rid of that awful Doze-lookalike logo a long time ago.  
It still has help media that make it easier to switch from Windows, but that 
is where any connection ends.  It is most definitely Linux.  And packaging is 
apt based, which again for me is a strength.  (Tho' the packages are .rpms.)

I only didn't recommend it before the others because it doesn't fulfil one of 
your criteria.  2009 will still be using KDE 3.5.x, not 4, on the grounds 
that KDE 4 is not yet fully user ready.  I regard this as a strength, but you 
may regard it as a weakness!

Lisi


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[James Ashburner]

Lisi wrote:
> On Thursday 30 October 2008 14:11:30 Paul Stimpson wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for the recommendation. I've kept away from PCLinuxOS as I always
>> perceived it as trying to be Windows. Is this still the case?
>>
>> I like Linux. I don't want Windows. I just don't know enough to localise
>> the FC9 wifi failure to the kernel, nm or the Intel driver or to fix it. 
>> Do you think PCLinuxOS is right for me?
> 
> It is great, and got rid of that awful Doze-lookalike logo a long time ago.  
> It still has help media that make it easier to switch from Windows, but that 
> is where any connection ends.  It is most definitely Linux.  And packaging is 
> apt based, which again for me is a strength.  (Tho' the packages are .rpms.)
> 
> I only didn't recommend it before the others because it doesn't fulfil one of 
> your criteria.  2009 will still be using KDE 3.5.x, not 4, on the grounds 
> that KDE 4 is not yet fully user ready.  I regard this as a strength, but you 
> may regard it as a weakness!
> 
> Lisi
> 
> 

It has been stated that KDE 4 will be an installable option in 2009, 
just not the default.

James

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Charlie de Courcy]

Phillip Chandler said the following on 30/10/08 14:55:
>
> (K)Ubuntu 8.10 and Fedora do seem to have a problem with wpa2 wireless.
> Debian Lenny needs 5 mins work to get wpa.
>   
I've not had a problem with WPA under Ubuntu.
   'sudo aptitude install wpasupplicant'
and everything works fine with network-manager etc?

- Charlie

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Paul Stimpson]

Hi,

I've not had any trouble with the wireless on Kubuntu either. My built-in wifi 
and both of my USB sticks work on every network I've pointed them at. With FC9 
the internal wireless can't do WPA on most networks and both USB sticks cause a 
kernel opps when connected.

Cheers,
Paul.


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Ritchie]

I've not had any problem with wireless and ubuntu either, works 
perfectly on all my laptops and on all networks.

Has anyone upgraded from Hardy to Intrepid yet? I'll be interested to 
know how it went.

Ritchie

Paul Stimpson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've not had any trouble with the wireless on Kubuntu either. My built-in 
> wifi and both of my USB sticks work on every network I've pointed them at. 
> With FC9 the internal wireless can't do WPA on most networks and both USB 
> sticks cause a kernel opps when connected.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul.
>
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>   


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Charlie de Courcy]

> Has anyone upgraded from Hardy to Intrepid yet? I'll be interested to 
> know how it went.
>   
I upgraded to the RC on my desktop/server a few days ago. I had some 
issues with network-manager due to a prior fix on 
/etc/network/interfaces but managed to isolate the problem eventually.

There doesn't seem an awful lot of difference; a few gui changes and 
integration of pidgin into the 'user switch' ment (I'm not sure about 
this!!).
AWN has gone sketchy again, things aren't compositing properly (white 
areas).
Conky has decided it will only now display half the output of one of my 
scripts...

Noticeable improvements certainly around Flash (fullscreen framerate is 
much improved, and I was having some serious "grey box" issues on firefox).
I'm yet to play with the encrypted folders yet. I have a trip to the US 
in a week or so and I don't want to give them excuse to confiscate my 
laptop - so I shall await until my return!

I'm just upgrading the laptop as we speak. Apparently I've got about 22 
mins remaining on the install :) everything appears well so far.

Charlie

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Phillip Chandler]

On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 15:34 +, Charlie de Courcy wrote:
> 
> Phillip Chandler said the following on 30/10/08 14:55:
> >
> > (K)Ubuntu 8.10 and Fedora do seem to have a problem with wpa2 wireless.
> > Debian Lenny needs 5 mins work to get wpa.
> >   
> I've not had a problem with WPA under Ubuntu.
>'sudo aptitude install wpasupplicant'
> and everything works fine with network-manager etc?
> 
> - Charlie

So what sort of hardware are you guys running ? Ive got a Dell Inspiron
1200, 512mb ram, Belkin F5D7010 Ver7000uk Wireless card, and seem to
have problems with wpa2 encryption.

Plus under Ubuntu 7.10 I install ndiswrapper and use the net8185 driver,
and wpa2 works 101%.

Anything from 8.04 onwards, even with wpasupplicant installed and
writing the relavent files, wpa2 just doesnt want to play ball, except
the latest Debian Lenny. Plus Debian now seems to use the rtl8185 driver
and see's my card by default, same as the latest Ubuntu, openSuse,
Fedora etc.

Ive tried both nm and wicd, and only use wicd now. The only other distro
that works out-of-the-box is Mandriva 2008 powerpack which connects with
the net-applet. Im assuming that its all down to what hardware you have.
In the sense that if the devs have the same hardware then the software /
drivers should be 100% !!! Or am I going off the track big time ?




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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Ritchie]

>> Has anyone upgraded from Hardy to Intrepid yet? I'll be interested to 
>> know how it went.
>>   
>> 
> I upgraded to the RC on my desktop/server a few days ago. I had some 
> issues with network-manager due to a prior fix on 
> /etc/network/interfaces but managed to isolate the problem eventually.
>
> There doesn't seem an awful lot of difference; a few gui changes and 
> integration of pidgin into the 'user switch' ment (I'm not sure about 
> this!!).
> AWN has gone sketchy again, things aren't compositing properly (white 
> areas).
> Conky has decided it will only now display half the output of one of my 
> scripts...
>
> Noticeable improvements certainly around Flash (fullscreen framerate is 
> much improved, and I was having some serious "grey box" issues on firefox).
> I'm yet to play with the encrypted folders yet. I have a trip to the US 
> in a week or so and I don't want to give them excuse to confiscate my 
> laptop - so I shall await until my return!
>
> I'm just upgrading the laptop as we speak. Apparently I've got about 22 
> mins remaining on the install :) everything appears well so far.
>
> Charlie
>
>   
Well, I haven't heard any horror stories yet so I may just go for the 
upgrade and see what happens!

Cheers

Ritchie

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[trotter]

At 13:19 30/10/2008, you wrote:
>Phillip Chandler wrote:
> > Hi Paul.
> >
> > Have you consider PCLinuxOS ? The 2007 version is rock solid with KDE,
> > but there is now a 2009 version out, still in Beta but starting to look
> > good.
> >
> > Texstar (who is the main person on the distro) came from Mandriva, so
> > has that way of thinking, and also sways towards the Debian way of
> > thinking, IE "It will be released when we're happy with it, if thats a
> > month or 4 months then tough, thats the way its going to be."
> >
> > Phillip
> >
>
>+1 for PCLOS, though I use the 2008 mini-me build. Very easy to use,
>great hardware support, easy wizard for installing ATI/nVidia video
>drivers, no problems with Wireless on my Thinkpad T60p.


the minime link was down for me yesterday

Does  anyone else have a different a different sources as the ones i googled
refered to pclinuxos website.

Martin N 


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Stephen Nelson-Smith]

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Paul Stimpson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My distro journey isn't going too well. I was happy with Kubuntu but ever 
> since Feisty I'd been seeing more and more things that just "weren't right". 
> The final straw was when I couldn't get Pulseaudio to work with KDE.

I'd spend my time trying to fix the bits that aren't right with Ubuntu.

I use CentOS for pretty much everything, but I use Ubuntu on my
laptop, and it's the best workstation distro I've ever seen.  If
there's a problem, I'd plug away at it, enlist help from the many
community members and people on this list, and feed back the
experience to other users.

S.

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[James Ashburner]

trotter wrote:

> 
> 
> the minime link was down for me yesterday
> 
> Does  anyone else have a different a different sources as the ones i googled
> refered to pclinuxos website.
> 
> Martin N 
> 
http://dl.btjunkie.org/torrent/pclinuxos-minime-2008/50276487d2dfae54efa4f96749cee8cbd7a3ba1c934c/download.torrent

or

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/texstar/pclinuxos/live-cd/english/preview/

With torrent probably being the fastest way to get hold of it :)

James




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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[trotter]

At 16:33 30/10/2008, you wrote:
>trotter wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > the minime link was down for me yesterday
> >
> > Does  anyone else have a different a different sources as the 
> ones i googled
> > refered to pclinuxos website.
> >
> > Martin N
> >
>http://dl.btjunkie.org/torrent/pclinuxos-minime-2008/50276487d2dfae54efa4f96749cee8cbd7a3ba1c934c/download.torrent
>
>or
>
>http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/texstar/pclinuxos/live-cd/english/preview/
>
>With torrent probably being the fastest way to get hold of it :)

Duh!

Thanks, downloading torrent now
- still think of torrents as illegal thanks to all the bad publicity.

Martin N 


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Charlie de Courcy]

Phillip Chandler said the following on 30/10/08 16:11:
> On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 15:34 +, Charlie de Courcy wrote:
>   
>> Phillip Chandler said the following on 30/10/08 14:55:
>> 
>>> (K)Ubuntu 8.10 and Fedora do seem to have a problem with wpa2 wireless.
>>> Debian Lenny needs 5 mins work to get wpa.
>>>   
>>>   
>> I've not had a problem with WPA under Ubuntu.
>>'sudo aptitude install wpasupplicant'
>> and everything works fine with network-manager etc?
>>
>> - Charlie
>> 
>
> So what sort of hardware are you guys running ? Ive got a Dell Inspiron
> 1200, 512mb ram, Belkin F5D7010 Ver7000uk Wireless card, and seem to
> have problems with wpa2 encryption.
>
> Plus under Ubuntu 7.10 I install ndiswrapper and use the net8185 driver,
> and wpa2 works 101%.
>
>
>   

My desktop is a custom AMD64 3200+ 2GB ram, Nvidia & Marvel Gig-E,  
Broadcom  BCM4306 Wireless and all works fine.

Laptop is a Toshiba Tecra M5, Core Duo,  Intel 82573L Gig-E, Intel 
3945ABG wireless.

I've just upgraded and nm-applet wasn't showing here also.  I added the 
following to sources:

deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/network-manager/ubuntu intrepid main


and changed /etc/network/interfaces to only have the following lines 
uncommented:

auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

Now everything is working fine! Looks good - seems to all be running OK 
so far...
There aren't any WPA points here - I'll check later and report if I have 
any problems at home with WPA2...


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Lisi]

On Thursday 30 October 2008 15:19:16 James Ashburner wrote:
> Lisi wrote:
> > On Thursday 30 October 2008 14:11:30 Paul Stimpson wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the recommendation. I've kept away from PCLinuxOS as I always
> >> perceived it as trying to be Windows. Is this still the case?
> >>
> >> I like Linux. I don't want Windows. I just don't know enough to localise
> >> the FC9 wifi failure to the kernel, nm or the Intel driver or to fix it.
> >> Do you think PCLinuxOS is right for me?
> >
> > It is great, and got rid of that awful Doze-lookalike logo a long time
> > ago. It still has help media that make it easier to switch from Windows,
> > but that is where any connection ends.  It is most definitely Linux.  And
> > packaging is apt based, which again for me is a strength.  (Tho' the
> > packages are .rpms.)
> >
> > I only didn't recommend it before the others because it doesn't fulfil
> > one of your criteria.  2009 will still be using KDE 3.5.x, not 4, on the
> > grounds that KDE 4 is not yet fully user ready.  I regard this as a
> > strength, but you may regard it as a weakness!
> >
> > Lisi
>
> It has been stated that KDE 4 will be an installable option in 2009,
> just not the default.

Only when Tex is satisfied with its stability and functionality.  And from 
what I have read about KDE4 that could be a long time coming.

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Phillip Chandler]

On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 17:06 +, Charlie de Courcy wrote:
> 
> 
> Phillip Chandler said the following on 30/10/08 16:11:
> > On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 15:34 +, Charlie de Courcy wrote:
> >   
> >> Phillip Chandler said the following on 30/10/08 14:55:
> >> 
> >>> (K)Ubuntu 8.10 and Fedora do seem to have a problem with wpa2 wireless.
> >>> Debian Lenny needs 5 mins work to get wpa.
> >>>   
> >>>   
> >> I've not had a problem with WPA under Ubuntu.
> >>'sudo aptitude install wpasupplicant'
> >> and everything works fine with network-manager etc?
> >>
> >> - Charlie
> >> 
> >
> > So what sort of hardware are you guys running ? Ive got a Dell Inspiron
> > 1200, 512mb ram, Belkin F5D7010 Ver7000uk Wireless card, and seem to
> > have problems with wpa2 encryption.
> >
> > Plus under Ubuntu 7.10 I install ndiswrapper and use the net8185 driver,
> > and wpa2 works 101%.
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> My desktop is a custom AMD64 3200+ 2GB ram, Nvidia & Marvel Gig-E,  
> Broadcom  BCM4306 Wireless and all works fine.
> 
> Laptop is a Toshiba Tecra M5, Core Duo,  Intel 82573L Gig-E, Intel 
> 3945ABG wireless.
> 
> I've just upgraded and nm-applet wasn't showing here also.  I added the 
> following to sources:
> 
> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/network-manager/ubuntu intrepid main
> 
> 
> and changed /etc/network/interfaces to only have the following lines 
> uncommented:
> 
> auto lo
> iface lo inet loopback
> 
> Now everything is working fine! Looks good - seems to all be running OK 
> so far...
> There aren't any WPA points here - I'll check later and report if I have 
> any problems at home with WPA2...
> 

Under Debian I have to do the following from a terminal.

gedit /etc/default/ifplugd And add the following to the file:

INTERFACES="eth0"
HOTPLUG_INTERFACES="wlan0"
ARGS="-q -f -u0 -d10 -w -I"
SUSPEND_ACTION="stop"

gedit /etc/network/interfaces And add the following to the file:

# This file describes the network interfaces available on your system
# and how to activate them. For more information, see interfaces(5). 

# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

# The primary network interface
allow-hotplug eth0
iface eth0 inet dhcp

# Wireless... (this section may or may not already exist)
allow-hotplug wlan0
iface wlan0 inet dhcp

gedit /etc/default/wpasupplicant And add the following to the file:

ENABLED=1
OPTIONS="-w -i wlan0 -D hostap -c /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf"


Then in terminal enter wpa_passphrase  

gedit /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf And replace everything with:

# WPA-PSK
network={
ssid="MY WIRELESS NAME"
proto=WPA
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
pairwise=TKIP
psk="VERY LONG ENCRYPTION KEY GOES HERE"
priority=4
}


Then my wpa2 wireless works, but only after installing wicd as well. So
Im confused as to why Im having wpa problems with most other distros.
But then I dont do any of the above with Ubuntu 7.10 except install wicd
and my card inf file ?


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Re: [Hampshire] Which distro next?

[Ritchie]

Further to my email below, I have finished the upgrade to ubuntu 8.10 
and all seems well. The upgrade itself was quick to download (at about 
2356kbps) so no server problems at the moment. All my "weird" hardware 
components seem to work fine and boot time seems to be quicker. A few 
apps seem to open faster too which is always good especially as I have 
read reports that ubuntu is getting slower with each release since 7.10.

One point worth noting is when it restarts your machine turn it off 
rather than let it just restart as a soft reset doesn't quite do the job.

In a way it was quite boring as I was expecting a host of issues to sort 
out!

Ritchie



Ritchie wrote:
> I've not had any problem with wireless and ubuntu either, works 
> perfectly on all my laptops and on all networks.
>
> Has anyone upgraded from Hardy to Intrepid yet? I'll be interested to 
> know how it went.
>
> Ritchie
>
> Paul Stimpson wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've not had any trouble with the wireless on Kubuntu either. My built-in 
>> wifi and both of my USB sticks work on every network I've pointed them at. 
>> With FC9 the internal wireless can't do WPA on most networks and both USB 
>> sticks cause a kernel opps when connected.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paul.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>>   
>> 
>
>
>   


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